EP 126 - The Man Who's Set Over A Dozen FKTs: Jeff Garmire Interview

[00:00:00] Tayson: Everybody welcome back to the live ultralight podcast powered by outdoor vitals. Today. In this episode, I talked with Jeff Garmire who is one of the most accomplished hikers Trail Runners and unsupported fkt individuals in the world and it was phenomenal. I don't want to give too much away here but but Jeff is a wealth of knowledge and a wealth of story. Really appreciate him coming on this last year. He set the John Muir Trail fastest known time for unsupported in 2020. He set the record for the Colorado Trail. He's also a Triple Crown hiker and accomplished publicist and much much more. So dive into this conversation with us. It truly was a lot of fun and there is a lot of information to be gathered and just some fun stories along the way. Before I turned that on, though, just wanted to give you guys another reminder. Join the 100-mile challenge. This is one of the best things we do here at Outdoor Vitals. It's it's a great time and I really believe that it can change your life and and just help you set a big goal and go accomplish something truly worthwhile this year. So, go check out the 100-mile challenge. It's a blast. We literally run this thing at our own costs because we think it's just that worthwhile and us helping you connect with the vital Outdoors. All right, let's jump into my interview with Jeff Garmire. All right Jeff I'm super excited to have you on the podcast today, you have one of the biggest. I don't know if you call it like a portfolio of hikes and FKS and all sorts of things that I was digging through. As in preparations for this, that's going to be very interesting to dive through and just to hear from you and get your perspective on a lot of this stuff. So I'm very excited to have you here today.

[00:01:54] Jeff: Yeah, thanks for having me. This will be fun.

[00:01:57] Tayson: Yeah. Where are you? Where are you based out of right now?

[00:02:00] Jeff: I live in Bozeman Montana. So we're super cold up here in the winter.

[00:02:04] Tayson: Yeah. Well, I was looking at like, your, your resume, I guess I'll say of your hikes here and I mean, it seems like you've got to be training year-round to just stay in the physical condition to do this. So you just go out when it's freezing cold and just train all winter. What's, what's the secrets there?

[00:02:21] Jeff: Yeah, right before this, I had like a free hour. So I went on a five and a half mile run and then just hustled the hop on this. So it's usually waiting till the warmer part of the day in the winter and then squeeze it in when you can. And then the last two or three days, it was like negative 15. So I actually did some stupid treadmill miles. But I trained in the winter kind of year round, and I think just, I grew up in the Northwest and living in a place with pretty intense seasons of just really grown to embrace and enjoy the start contrast of like winter. Sports summer, trudging through snow or skiing. So I think, yeah, there's pluses and minuses, but I love the intensity of the the seasons here.

[00:03:10] Tayson: Yeah. So are you, are you like a full-time athlete? I mean what like sounds like you've got some control over what you're doing as far as being able to, maybe go squeeze in workouts, in the day and some of those things. But when you're not out, you know, cranking massive miles on Trails, what are you, what are you doing?

[00:03:28] Jeff: Um yeah I'm usually writing for a number of different companies and then I Revere review some Gear with them and then Beyond that currently putting out our touring with a movie that we released on the Colorado Trail record. So a little bit of working with brands on the athlete side and that's more visible than anything. But I'd say like 80% of income and everything comes from like, Self. I don't know, self-built little projects and things like that ranging from ongoing monthly writing to peddling. The book I wrote to Speaking stuff and then the movie thing and yes and gear testing gear reviewing, all kinds of fun stuff I guess and the end of the month, usually breaking even or have a little left over. So it's a fun way to live, but it's not not quite the most lucrative.

[00:04:30] Tayson: Yeah, but I don't think you have it any other way, right?

[00:04:33] Jeff: Yeah, no, I started out when I was 22 and took a job in finance. And for the next better part of five years worked in the financial world and then decided I didn't want to have it that way and so here I am making maybe half of back then but it's way more fun.

[00:04:49] Tayson: Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I wanted to ask this question because when you're looking at everything you've done from through hiking to Triple Crowns, to FK teas and, and just everything in between, I'm curious which of those hikes or accomplishments your most proud of

[00:05:11] Jeff: Um, I think doing Nolan's 14 in the middle of the Great Western Loop was this thing. So the Great Western Loop is like a 7,000 mile circle, connecting the Pacific, Crest Trail Pacific northwest trail Continental, Divide Trail Grand Enchantment Trail, Arizona Trail, and then off Trail portion, to connect it into a loop, and it Mi about 6,000 of that. I was in Colorado, near Leadville. And I'd always wanted to do this ultra running challenge, called Nolan's 14, where you Summit, 14 14,000 foot peaks in under 60 hours and it comes out to about 100 miles long with. I don't know 40 or 50,000 feet a game and I had always wanted to try it when I lived in Colorado and just never got around to it. So, in the middle of that through hike, I decided to give it in a tempt. And with my fall through hiking backpack and everything. I was able to complete it in 59 and a half hours and that kind of opened up my eyes to like this faster. Way to do, things got me kind of introduced to fkt after that. And just fell into this like intersection of realizing that the ultra running and fkt world is really not that far removed from like a pretty quick through hike. And so I think that's what I'm proud of and also kind of LED down the path of it's not as scary to jump into something like the Arizona Trail, which ended up doing fkt, which I ended up doing six months later. So I think that was a huge moment and Just being able to accomplish that with none of the runner Packer or anything. Just sheer will and desire.

[00:06:54] Tayson: Yeah, well, it is, it is wild. I've heard a little bit of Nolan's And people attempting it and it sounds like just one of the most brutal possible like Roots, right? Like just the root itself is brutal, right? I mean, you're exposed, you're high got tons of elevation climbing, you've got to deal with being at elevation for long periods of time, but just even the the terrain itself and the exposure is so massive, so that It does blow my mind that you did that with your full pack. I was thinking like, you probably dropped your pack and ran it, right? So that's that is just wild and I want to get into some of your pack and just like what you're carrying, like, total bass plays. But if But really, this this kind of reminds me of part of the conversation that blew me away when I was talking with Josh Perry, right? And that was it like the, the difference is in unsupported, fkt versus supported fkt and how on some of these roots. It's just not that that different. And so I specifically remember asking him like, well, how much are you running versus hiking? And he's like, I don't run, what are you talking about? You know, and it it was interesting to just think like man, if you're just that streamline and that dialed, you know, I mean for him he's like never taking breaks. I mean, he's just never stopping, right? Like you track how much time you stop and you track a time you're moving and It was just it really like changed my perspective of it too because by just moving at a constant speed all day. Like, one, it does. I mean, you still have to be in an incredible athlete, right? Like, it's still From athletic perspective, it's crazy. But it really shocked me when he was like yeah, I'm not I'm not running, right?

[00:08:36] Jeff: Yeah, I know it's about it's actually at the longer things like he and I've done, it's really comes down to that efficiency thing because Runners often will take way longer breaks. And you hear about some of the through hikers out there. When Karl Meltzer Scott jerk, did the Appalachian Trail record and they would like be hanging out for 10 hours with sleep and breakfast and dinner, whereas, I don't know like Joe McConaughy when he said it. He's all about the efficiency too. So I think it's a equalizer. The longer it is the more efficient you can be and of course, walking or hiking is a lot less strain on on your body and it's pretty easy to get back up and go the next day, rather than if you're trying to run every step of the 50 miles, you're doing a day,

[00:09:26] Tayson: Yeah, right. Just thought that impact for running is just so much more likely to create an injury right? But Yeah, so sorry, this Great Western loop. I mean, that sounds pretty fascinating. It looks like you 2018 is when you went in and did that, I mean, how long? Okay, seven months. So that's I mean, that's your, that's your year, right? It's just hiking this massive Loop. How many people go and do that? I mean there, I think run into people that were doing that.

[00:09:53] Jeff: No, I think Andrew Stark is the only one who did it before me and then I think maybe one other person did it after one or two. So we're talking like under five ever. So not a lot of people out there doing that and it's it's a cool loop because five maybe like 80 80 to 90% of its defined on Trails ranging, just from like the PCT, Arizona Grand Champion Trail. And then you have this like 800 miles connector section from the Grand Canyon to the PCT. And that's where you kind of just draw up your own thing. So you look at Google Maps. To figure out where there might be a water source, put a pin in there, a couple contingency, water sources and and then you just, you just go. And there is this. I think 68, 70 mile waterless stretch across Joshua tree that I had to go through. So I in my pack, I had like a full gallon and then a bunch of bladders just just to get through the segment. But it was a, it was a really cool Trail. There was or route, I guess it just had everything you could imagine. I hit lingering snow on the PCT in the Sierra and then early snowstorm for the next winter, on the backside, and Southern Colorado's, so got everything he could dream about their

[00:11:14] Tayson: Yeah, what what made you want to go and, and Tackle this is it just because no one else really had, besides Andrew, or like, what what was the big Poll for you to do this specific Trail?

[00:11:26] Jeff: I done the county or Triple Crown a couple years before and I enjoyed it, but it was really like squeezing three different through because I did each one end to end before jumping into the next one. So it felt like three I don't know, separate through hikes in one year. And I really wanted to see like, how big of a through I continually you can fit in a year and I don't really know any other routes that would get to that level. So kind of settled on the Great Western Loop and I'm pretty partial to the West just growing up out here. So it seemed like quite an adventure and it definitely turned out to be. So, yeah, it was really just wanting to go a little further without breaking it up. Like yeah, just kind of see how human powered. You can go in a whole circle which seems pretty poorly but circles are

[00:12:21] Tayson: so, I got asked this as a guy who's just so focused on efficiency and everything, do you feel through your water?

[00:12:32] Jeff: On those things, I will on FKS. It's sometimes in that. But if I do treat it on fkt, it's with one drop of bleach per liter, which is not the greatest, but it's a little bit of treatment.

[00:12:49] Tayson: Never had any issues from that.

[00:12:50] Jeff: Um, I've only had she already have four times. So no, she's the on that.

[00:12:56] Tayson: Are those from fkt or just other times

[00:12:58] Jeff: know, I've never had it from an fkt. I first got it when I was a year old, my parents one parents of the year that year I was we went backpacking quite a bit growing up and then I had it once on my first TCT hike and then on the calendar year Triple Crown I had it on the Pacific or no on the Continental, Divide Trail actually had to stop at Old Faithful Village and got a quick prescription and was back to trudging along with the whole roll of toilet, paper struggling.

[00:13:32] Tayson: So, how long are you off Trail for something like that?

[00:13:35] Jeff: um I never was off Trail, maybe they were eight mile days but I tried to keep moving so I guess I yeah really short days but Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I should have stopped. It might have passed quicker. Right.

[00:13:50] Tayson: Oh, that's incredible. That's incredible. So, on this Great Western Loop, you know, the side, some of these water carries? What do you feel like? We're some of the hardest aspects of it, obviously, navigation, sounded like, it could be challenging at times. But was there ever like a time where you just where you're really putting up against the wall or just got really difficult?

[00:14:11] Jeff: Yeah, the Pacific northwest trail version so I started at the Arizona California border right by Blythe and then so by the time I got there, I was about three maybe 3,000 miles in or so, in the Pacific northwest trail was pretty quiet. So didn't see. A lot of people was Super in my own head and I kind of combated that by just backing off a little on the Mi, well, the days were longer, so I could still get them in but I tried to swim a lot and like, do little activities like that that would break up the day and the strangeness of just being out in such remote areas is Northern Washington. Northern Idaho where it's a whole different culture and world, then anywhere I've lived. And so I I just tried to use little things like that and then Yeah, it was just like a slog because you're so you're maybe halfway done but you have gone so far yet. You still so far to go? It's even an fkt that's easy point to lose yourself and just like, wondering if you can actually get it done and then in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, once I hit the CDT, I got charged by a Grizzly. So then I was right back into being present and enjoying the whole Adventure.

[00:15:28] Tayson: I've had did you bump into them or something and like clothes conduct? Or what do you think made him charge?

[00:15:33] Jeff: Um, I came up pretty close, maybe 50 feet when I turned to Corner it was a mom with two Cubs and she just left charged at me a couple times and got on it. Hind legs and let the cubs run away before she disappeared but I have my bear spray out and ready but that's exactly what I realized not exactly sure when to start spraying. So look that

[00:15:55] Tayson: up soon thereafter. Have you sprayed have you ever deployed a can just to see?

[00:15:59] Jeff: Yeah yeah I have since and just give it a test drive.

[00:16:03] Tayson: Yeah. I was in Alaska and was coming back and I went to like just go donate somewhere and they had like a bin full of them in a mic. You know what, I'm just gonna keep it and go spray it and so I went and sprayed it and it was like Incredibly under wilming. Yeah I was like, oh my gosh. That's what my life is. Would come down to and that situation. I'm like I don't I don't know about seeing, you know.

[00:16:27] Jeff: Yeah, it's basically just like spray paint or something. It's not

[00:16:30] Tayson: trying to make it sound like. Oh, like it shoots so far away but like, I don't know. Like, what is it? It's like, it's not far. It's like 20 feet or something. Yeah, really. Piss off 20 feet. It's like seven steps. Maybe at maximum distance. And yeah, it was definitely one of those moments from like I lost some some faith, not some faith, that it wouldn't. Like maybe save my life, but you're definitely getting smacked around before that thing we see. Yeah,

[00:16:59] Jeff: the Grizzlies not immediately stopping as soon as you hit it either. It's not like right at that. 20 feet. It's not coming closer. Either me? Yeah, I don't know. I still take that scenario. What do you do? Do you just did you? Just kind of throw your hands up and yell and back up or what it. What was your reaction? I was slowly backing up holding the bear spray and yeah I would have been whacked around but luckily, it was a bluff charge. Yeah, it's yeah, it was one of those where I don't even remember grabbing the bear spray but it was immediately in my hands and I was ready and it's probably The bear was probably right at that 20 foot Mark or so and just like kind of wondering maybe if a couple more steps I was gonna spray it but it was a it was a huge mess. I'd say anyone who's out backpacking in Grizzly or country or doing anything there. Maybe think about when you're gonna spray that spray because I hadn't had that honest thought?

[00:17:58] Tayson: Yes, yeah. Well I mean living in in Bozeman. Do you do you have to carry bear spray everywhere you go up there? I mean it's I mean, it just sounds from the outside perspective, right? And this is why it's always good to talk to someone local. But between like Wyoming and Montana. Lately, Grizzlies are just. The attacks are going up. Like, Hunters are getting charged like, more and more frequently. There's a kid even from our, where we're at here, in Cedar City, he was up at a college in Wyoming, is a wrestler, and they were out, looking for, for drop horns, and sheds. And they got charged and attacked two kids that were trying to get, you know, it just sounds like It's it's getting wild up there. So is that something like you have to run every day with bear spray or what is the situation on?

[00:18:41] Jeff: Um it's really mountain range by mountain range. So we have like, 50 mile, long ranges. And then there's some flat lands between the next range. And each range is kind of different. So the one nearest to Bozeman, the Bridgers. There's I've seen some black bears, but no Grizzly or anything, so I won't carry it there. But if I went into Yellowstone, I'd definitely carry it or some of the other mountain ranges. So, Base. Yeah, basically the ranges, south of our the interstate running through town have bears in them. And north of it are usually pretty free. So, it's, you know, I'm a little, I'm, I'm a little less cautious, in many, I guess.

[00:19:24] Tayson: oh, you're faster than most people, you know,

[00:19:25] Jeff: if you have not a bear,

[00:19:31] Tayson: so, I wanted to go back to talking about that pacific northwest trail because I my thought would be that you thrive in hiking solo, and being You know, just just on your own right? Like, I mean, I for my understanding, you're probably not hiking with many people.

[00:19:48] Jeff: If

[00:19:49] Tayson: any and you're doing these fkt, like, how many people could even keep up if they wanted and So it's interesting to me that you almost hit this limit where, you know, I don't know. Maybe, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you actually wish that you're hiking with people more often, but it sounds like you hit this limit on that trail where it was like, it's too much Solitude like this is too far Maybe. Uh yeah, it was a number of things. So

[00:20:14] Jeff: I really immersed myself and trying to hike with and at least camp with people on the Pacific Crest Trail. Just knowing the rest of the Great Western Loop would be pretty void of other through hikers. Since I'd be way behind the bubbles on every other Trail and then, yeah, just going straight from people around to immediately, no one around and getting cut up having different level of Trail. Yeah. A number of Just, I don't know, I think I got sick a couple times on that portion. It was just like a low point. I think overall it was I don't know for some reason that just sticks out as like the Solitude. And every time I came into town, I'm the homeless person rather than the through hiker. On that trail. It was just a big shift from the Pacific Crest Trail to the Pacific northwest trail and I'd actually done the pnt right out of college in 2014 so I'd done it four years prior and yeah I think it was hard comparing this segment of it in 2018 back to when I first did it and just wasn't enjoying it as much. And I think it's kind of hard to compare something to anything you have Nostalgia about because Nostalgia always wins even if it wasn't as fun in the moment. So I think a number of those things and heading west, to east, didn't feel like I was making any progress and I had to go because at the top of the loop and I have to go back all the way around, so, he'll just adding to it. But as soon as I hit the CDT things immediately turned around and I don't know, it's everything like that. Comes into through hiking and backpacking, where one? Little? One little change, like a change in Direction, can massively change, your your perception or perspective on everything.

[00:22:04] Tayson: Yeah. Have you ever had to get off Trail on a like like on a three hiker like just scrap? Something completely.

[00:22:10] Jeff: Uh, yeah, I went for the fkt on Nolan's 14 in 2019 and just Three Peaks in wasn't feeling. It had like an asthma attack, had a bunch of things and I just convinced myself, I didn't want to do it, which I don't think I did. I don't really regret it, so I quit there and then I tried the fkt on the superior, hiking trail and three days. And I was on Pace, but a number of issues like my pack ribbed and I just was Not it felt like a chore out there every day, so I only had like four, four days left to be out there. So I just hit back to my car and went on some runs and enjoyed the foliage and just made it a more relaxed vacation and an fkt for because I just wasn't in the mindset.

[00:23:02] Tayson: Yeah. What about fkt or or even long Trails for that matter? What, what draws you to them? Like what makes you want to go do this time and time again because Be real, like an fkt. It's a lot of pain, right? I mean, you're you're pushing and it's, it's painful it gets more painful, then you start hallucinating. I mean, it just compounds the farther and the longer you go. And so, like, to you, what is what's the big draw there? Like, what's the

[00:23:33] Jeff: What keeps you coming back? I think it's pretty cool to get to go after something with only one goal which is like I want to do the John, Muir Trail is fast as possible and that's it. So special, like on that one, there's really no cell service so you just strip away everything else and you get to like intensely move towards one goal. I kind of like just That it's simplifies, everything like no one's expecting and email back or you don't have to like worry about texting someone back or whatever. Anything in life, it's sort of like, you get this period of time where there's only one Soul focus. And I think that's kind of addictive that's in a world where we're so fragmented. And I don't think our Our energy or our focus is ever 100% in one spot. So I think that that's kind of a special feeling you get during that and I I felt that especially on my first through hike in 2011 too so I don't think it's only fkt even a backpacking trip or something like that. It's just pretty special to have one thing you're doing for the next however many days or nights and then then you you go do it and whether you succeed or not you still get to be in that mindset for a little while.

[00:24:51] Tayson: I mean I think most people would describe that as like flow, right? Like where you just lose track of time and and they're just totally zoned out or Zone in. However, you want to look at that. And it's really interesting and so you've got, I guess, you've hit those States all. So just backpacking as well as as doing this, but it just makes sense. I mean, you just so singular of mine, right? When you're out there, you're just covering those miles are just step in front of the other, nothing else matters, I mean, right? And an fkt attempt, you don't have time to text someone back, right? I mean that's yeah,

[00:25:27] Jeff: that's

[00:25:28] Tayson: huge. Waste of time, right? Or yeah. I mean, so this year, you you, or I guess now it's last year in 2022. You set the new JMT, John Muir Trail fastest known time, and you beat it by 13 minutes, right?

[00:25:46] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. It was a close one.

[00:25:49] Tayson: so in a scenarios like that it's like you I mean you just don't have Any time any, you know, any you can't you can't be distracted, right?

[00:25:59] Jeff: Yeah, I think it's kind of an interesting thing because maybe so it took three days and 47 minutes or something like that. And so the whole time for like two of the days, at least you're just putting in as good of an effort, as you can. And then that last day is really where You know, you have that baseline or my goal is actually to try to break three. I didn't quite do that but so well enough that I still got the SKT but that's it's like you just put yourself in position in these FK teas. And then that last day is like all right, 30 miles, 40 miles, 30 miles, whatever is left. Like now I have to sort of rundown forest or just Springs up Whitney and things like that. And those are those things that are sort of like growing up playing sports, where you think it's like the biggest thing in the world yet you get older and realize no one cares really about your high school basketball team but it is cool to like feel so invested in a moment that, you know, you're just seeing how well you can perform and I think that's kind of a fun thing that especially as adults, there's less competitive outlets and it's kind of a fun way to push your body whether it results in success or not, you at least get to have fun red lining on the way up Mount. Whitney at 4:00 in the morning,

[00:27:22] Tayson: Have you found that like setting goals like this? And going after them, I mean, you've achieved them. I'm sure. There's some of you have an achieved, you know, has that has that changed you in any way or like, for me, I guess I'm, I would say I'm pretty addicted to, to just goal setting and chasing goals. And, and I look back at that because you can see people around you, that maybe don't have that same mentality, and I think for me like, it's just was built like, line upon line, right? Like something, it's not like it just was Some people might say you're born with it but really it's like no like I got a little taste of it here and then I went a little you know a little set, a little harder of a goal and I hit that and then I and I just kind of kept building line upon line. But I mean is that does that resonate with you? In your experience of that and is that just kind of something that's like now just so much, a party, you can't stop.

[00:28:14] Jeff: Yeah, I think it's a huge part. In the sense that when I started through hiking in 2011, I had a 55 pound external frame pack. I couldn't make it to Lake Morena on the first day through. I was trying to get to an average of 20 miles a day, but it was like impossible. Now that mileage is Just increase exponentially. And I think that that's really the thing of reframing thing is you things, as you bite off more goals or you like your first 50 mile day, then it's like 20 miles doesn't feel so bad by comparison so it's just broadening that perspective of what's achievable and doable and one of the I guess it's like something that's a part of everyday life and especially on the trails like, in 2016 on the calendar year. Triple Crown, I just made this goal one day that I wanted to see if I could do what I called a daylight 50. So I wanted to do daylight or during the daylight with no headlamp get in 50 miles from like, right when the sun rose until the sun set and was like, there's no no real point to it. But yeah, I was able to do it and it was it was pretty fun to just have this goal of. Can I get 50 mi in without ever using a headlamp and finished Before Sunset? And so little things like that really translated into life too by breaking him up or you know finding a way to make something mundane a little more fun or I don't know like it's just a huge way to get a sense of Pride or accomplishment based on even if it's like a menial or If you're not really into, there's a goal associated with it. Like I want to get a draft of this piece done in an hour and then like get that done then you can polish it because usually not that good. But at least you got something to work with. I think it's just almost gamifying how you go about life and I always try to set my goals based on maybe right around what I think I can achieve. So, like on the Long Trail, Josh Perry had like time of maybe six days eight hours or something. But I wanted to just and just like the John, Muir Trail said, the my goal for six days to just see if I could break that and have something to shoot for that was sort of arbitrary in my mind and all so not dependent on somebody else. And so on that one, it was pretty motivating because I got the Long Trail record by, like, five days, 23 hours and 49 minutes. So it was like, I wonder if I could have set the goal. a couple hours faster and just See if that happens too. So I think, yeah. Especially serious and committed goal. Setting is like one of the more motivating things whether it's professional or recreational, or whatever realm of life.

[00:31:17] Tayson: so I want to hear what you think about this, or what you would tell a listener, your thoughts on this and We don't have any history me and you Jeff. But I don't even know how much you know, about outdoor vitals, but we actually are running last year. We ran a beta group through a program called The 100-mile Challenge. In a lot of that comes from just this concept to of like Not all of us are through hikers, not all of us, you know? Kind of make the massive Lifestyle Changes sometimes to be able to pull some of that off or from the beginning, right? Like that was something you adapted really young in life and just never never like go, right? But but there's still a lot of us in my opinion that that benefit from pushing. And so last year we created this program called 100 Mile Challenge and basically we put together this this training framework, it took people through everything from like, physical training to, you know, gear getting your gear ready, doing shake out trips Hydration, you know, all these different things. And at the end of it after you went kind of through this program, we had a window of about a month long where you would go and attempt 100 miles consecutive hike, right? For a lot of people that's something that they've actually never done, which to you, like is gonna be, like, that's like two days of jogging around, you know, it's nothing but, but to a lot of people, they haven't done that, right? It's always two three day trips and It's not big mileage. It's not, you know, anything like that. And so it was really interesting because we had this massive of just 100 people. We put into this beta group and we had a massive positive response and it was very fulfilling from for my side, right? Because a lot of the work that I do is isn't, you know, face-to-face in person. And so this getting this feedback inside this closed Facebook group and if you think it's really powerful so we rolled it out again this year. it's currently taking registrations in, and it's Tons of people from last year. I've already jumped on and it's been growing but I try to explain this because I see this on Mike's, we have thousands and thousands of followers and Customers and email addresses, you know, tens of thousands. And, and it's like, so I see the amount of signups and it's like, it's good. But it's like, I see this in like man, everyone needs to do this like I because it's Like we price it where we don't, we literally don't make any money on this. Like the registration price covers, the cost of like a swag box that we send you with with like a sun hoody already in it and and then other partners that are donating stuff to to this. And, but the concept really was that it was really interesting to watch people that did this last year, like a lot of them changed, like, lost significant weight, right? A lot of them worked through injuries that were holding them back. A lot of them did a trip just because it was a goal to go to a trip. Now, they might not have even hit the 100 miles and so they're kind of coming back this way to try that. But like they went and did the biggest trip of their lifetime with their son or their daughter or and so it's really cool to get that feedback. But it's funny because it's like, you talk to guys like, you know, it's like 30,000 miles in your life time yet somehow in my opinion, by just setting. A goal of the 100 miles is Can all be really powerful. So I'd love to hear your feedback on that. And if you would suggest, you know, or like think that, that's something you'd pitch, you know, that anyone listening I guess,

[00:34:41] Jeff: Know, I think that whether it's a hundred miles or 50 miles or 20 miles, I grew up going on three mile backpacking trips where we would camp at the lake for two days and then backpack three miles back out. So it is it's not that long ago. I'm only 32 that that was like the generational way to backpack like through hikers. I only learned about it by seeing it through hiker near like Pamelia lake or something and Oregon. And so I think that it's really cool to Have this whole different style because it is a different style than like camping or backpacking with maybe a Boy Scout Troop or something when you're younger. And I think that it's really cool to give kind of the resources and the ability to cover, 100 miles or whatever happens to be the threshold that you can fit into life. And I think the bigger thing than that, actual doing the furthest thing you've ever done is like spending the longest amount of time you've ever spent maybe disconnected or out there or, you know, really looking forward to the next meal or a break or something or like jumping in a Alpine Lake and I have some friends that are guides and they say that's one of the most rewarding things is like the miles and the route and the beauty like that's really cool but you could like Google that and see a photo of it. But it's the like the self-empowerment and the confidence that knowing your body can do that and it's Like it's only a little bit of training away from being able to do that. I think is really the thing to focus on is that like, sign up for it? Take a plunge. Tell your your spouse, or your friend that you're going to try to do 100 Mi trip and watch them think you're crazy. And then show back up, a couple months later, having done it. And I think what that offers and self-confidence is a lot bigger than any of the and any of the other things because that goal can just become the next thing of Maybe you want to run a marathon or maybe you want to do some thing in the gym or lose weight or anything like that, it can just show you that you have the discipline to do something like that. And I think that's really at the heart of it, because it's not easy, especially if you have a full-time job, too, get time, use your time off to cover, 100 miles, and get the gear, learn how to use it, be in shape to cover it like. And then, while you're out there to get through like blisters and things like that, realize your feet swell two sizes in your shoes suck. I'm like all those things are what really, just add to that commitment and you can always use that moving forward in life. That when things suck in it hurts, you decided to keep going. So you can keep drawing on that experience. So I think it's really cool.

[00:37:32] Tayson: Yeah. Yeah, well we'll have to put a new category in our training framework. Called the, you know, the Jeff category because ours really caps out like on the on the more advanced track. Like after you kind of set your Baseline at the very beginning you kind of get on a track of of how you should train. How many miles a week? You know, things like that. And I think it really caps out of about 20, like 20-ish miles a day 20 to 25. So we'll have to put a whole new category in there if to hit the kind of Miles you're hitting. So speaking of that though, like During the John Muir Trail. I mean, just doing some quick math on my head. You're doing 70 miles in a 24-hour period on average.

[00:38:10] Jeff: Yeah, I think it was pretty consistent like low 70s. Each Of the cell. Yeah. And then a little bit of sleep the first day and then not much the next two days.

[00:38:22] Tayson: Yeah. So I I heard that you potentially fell asleep while hiking on that fkt. How did that happen?

[00:38:32] Jeff: Well, it was if anyone's familiar with the trail. I'm heading southbound and I just crossed over Forester pass and maybe he had like 30 miles to go and I'm just battling all kinds of hallucinations. This is my third night out there, maybe cumulative, sleep of an hour hour and a half or something. And it starts to feel like there's an earthquake going on while I'm walking and I'm experienced with this hallucinating things. So I'm right in it off. I know it's fake and all the sudden I just wake up after hitting the ground because I fallen asleep and just like tip over forward. Wow, I hiking and it was very, its kind of that. That like soft, Gravois stuff out on kind of the exposed Southern Sierra, so no real harm. But I woke up on the ground had to pick myself up and then like, five minutes later, it was this decision. Like this is I have no chance like this. So I made like a huge decision that I'm gonna sleep for 10 minutes. Hopefully, that revitalizes me and either. I'm not gonna get the record if I try to keep going without sleeping or, you know, this is the only way I have a shot. So I took a 10 minute nap and then I basically ran up Mount Whitney like, if anyone I got some of the like the strawberry crowns and stuff on the route because I'm just flying Like I was I was just so in tune and excited about how hard I was breathing and redlining just spurring myself further and got to the top. And I'm just overheated and in shorts and just the thin coat and ask someone to take a picture just to have some proof at the top and they were blown away that I was just in shorts. But yeah, I fell asleep while hiking and that was a big wake-up call. Literally that I needed to take a short nap.

[00:40:34] Tayson: so, Bizarre, by the way. But so why do you like could that not be considered you passing out? Or did you were you like sleeping on the ground or did you wake up when you hit the ground?

[00:40:46] Jeff: Um, so I woke up when I hit the ground, I didn't.

[00:40:50] Tayson: Okay.

[00:40:51] Jeff: So yeah, I just like that eyes closed and didn't open while upright and then realized I was on the ground. Like, yeah, I guess I don't know what the line between passing out and falling asleep is but something that's somewhere in between. Yeah, you're one of the few people in the world. That's that's flirted that line. I guess where you can fall asleep standing up and or pass out to do. Yeah. I was having like, almost like nightmares awake going into that last night, just knowing how rough it was gonna be. Just I knew how tired I was, and nights are always way worse than days. As far as that late in fkt and just knowing I had to push through the whole night. Was like four boating thoughts. Do you get scared of the hallucinations to come? Like,

[00:41:42] Tayson: I'd be like a real thought that I would have of like, let's just say you start hallucinating. You're seeing eyes or something, right? Like yeah, I've been out there and sometimes you're like, what was that, you know, and then it starts working and they're like, you know, I I always say that I don't watch scary movies for a reason. It's because I backpack alone way too much, right?

[00:42:02] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:42:02] Tayson: But I would think that like, hallucinations is because I'm just dealing with reality. I'm not dealing with the next level of hallucinations and that to me, could be frightening, you know, even in the daytime to just be like, man, what am I going to see tonight? What's gonna happen?

[00:42:17] Jeff: I don't get scared anymore. I'm pretty good about deciding what's real and what's not just with some experience. But on the Arizona trail fkt that was one of my first experiences. I had some snow on the north rim and was slowed down a little bit. So I had to push through basically the entire last night and it was a full moon so between the moon shadows and the contrast of the tall trees over the snow, my mind kept like turning all the trees into like witches and stuff and it was really freaky. I yeah, I was really struggling to stay calmed through that and it happened. It's happened a few more times since then, but every time it's it gets a little bit more noticeable, or you can kind of tell what's real and not. And now it It's like equal parts, like observing and being interested, and then all. So using it as like, I don't know, like Entertainment or something. It's it's kind of crazy. I like to make videos when I'm out there especially Like in the afternoon or during the day if I'm having some flickers of reality and just pointed at whatever I'm seeing and say what I'm seeing because I just think it's funny. Now to look back like on the John Maher Trail I was like filming this section near Rae lakes and just like, wow, it looks like there's statues all around me and it's just like trees and sounds like there's nothing and it doesn't make sense. Yeah it's like in the afternoon it's I don't know maybe 48 50 hours into the attempt and just like well it seems like there's a things all around me, be statues. There's none in the video but it's just kind of funny to look back on what your mind can do and how it just wants to play tricks on you once you've stayed up for that long.

[00:44:11] Tayson: Yeah. that's, man, that's really interesting because You know, reading up on this with ultra Runners and stuff, they really kind of talk about like the witching hour between like 2 a.m. and 4:00 a.m. it's when most hallucinations happen so on and so forth. But thinking about that a little bit more and it kind of makes sense that you could have hallucinate it totally different times after that first full day or two days, right? Because How many people are going that far without sleeping? Basically, you know, you guys that are setting these fkt, you know, basically the people that are doing 200 plus model events and even those people There's only a handful of them that that will. You know, run through two nights without sleeping, right? Because let's say you're doing, I don't know what is the Moab 240, right? That Ultra race? You know, like most of the people even in that they're gonna sleep for a couple hours like they're just gonna do it, right? But I was watching like a video on that with. I think it's Jeff brownie, or Browning? Yeah. You know, he ran through two straight nights and it's like, man, he's, you can probably count on, you know, your hands and Toes. How many people are actually pushing that? Level of sleep deprivation. And it never got me thinking that like, hey, you could totally just start to hallucinating in the day after you get to that point, right?

[00:45:33] Jeff: Oh yeah, daytime hallucinations are kind of the most fun because you're most grounded in reality, he still get to see things. So, I've done the cocoa Donuts, 250 actually twice, and both times of slept, I think two hours, or less bold times. And yeah, the like by the last day or second. The last day, you're getting these laid off after noon hallucinations and they're pretty crazy. It's just like a stick. We'll see like a slithering or more into a snake or something like that, just whatever. Whatever is out there, your mind will just turn it into something else and it's pretty fascinating to see.

[00:46:13] Tayson: Ya. Yeah. So, how well do you see running translating into hiking like for training purposes or like do you do any like weighted training, meaning, like lifting or anything, even remotely like that? Or do you just run to train for hiking or

[00:46:31] Jeff: Um, I run because it's the least amount of time to exercise and still get the miles in. And then I do a lot of hills and trails and stuff too. Which I think this is a big thing with ultra running and Runners as they call it going for a run. But when it's like steep uphill, everyone is power hiking, they call it, which is just hiking. It just sounds like,

[00:46:55] Tayson: it's just way cool. Learn to save power. I can go.

[00:46:59] Jeff: Yeah. So Ultra Runners are like not that much different. The only difference is maybe jogging and running the downhills and some of the flats. So it's a very translatable way to get out there, especially in the mountains because half your half your day out, there is basically hiking and that's very comparable to through hiking. So, I think it's an efficient way to kind of do both things and some been running some races lately in the ultra running space and all. So, FK teas, and then just getting out on through hikes and backpacking trips to. So kind of trained for all three at the same time.

[00:47:40] Tayson: Yeah. All right, so I want to ask you some questions around nutrition and gear for a minute. So I'm gonna shift gears a little bit here, but let's start with nutrition. I'd like to hear what you eat first in an fkt situation and then kind of in a in a more like traditional Hacking scenario which big big Mi backpack, and we'll just call it that, that's a category of. We're going to create it for you. So fkt, like what are you, what are you eating? How many calories, how you get them in?

[00:48:15] Jeff: Yeah, definitely leaving the stove at home and no cold soaking because I think it's pretty gross. So, but personal preference. So everything is based around snacks nuts and it's all calories per ounce. It's like the only time I'll put on my nerd hat and like, actually calculate how much anything is so I'll buy like a thing of nuts or Seth and bolt and then all actually separated into bags and right how many calories is on it and then if it's like, I guess any fkt now. I'll put them in a gallon Ziploc bags with like, this, is 5,000 calories. This is the first day. This is the second day and then so everything, only eating 5000 calories on the John Maher Trail. I packed 15,000 and I only ate about 7,000 of them. I just did not. I was eating leftover James teeth food for, like a week. After that, you,

[00:49:13] Tayson: how did you keep going? I mean, you're you probably burned that in the first half of one day in all reality so that you're going, two and a half days on basically no no energy from food, eating. Yeah, way to look at it but geez.

[00:49:29] Jeff: Yeah. The last day I just really couldn't eat anything and then Just use caffeine which I've done in 100 mile race as well. I just could not eat and so this one, 100 Miler actually I couldn't eat after 50 miles. So I had like seven cold brew coffees for the last 50 miles and made it with like maybe six pretzels and seven cold Brews and that's how I made it through. So I don't know. Oftentimes like on the Colorado Trail record. I was able to fuel the whole way and I ran out of food with like half a day left or about a day left, maybe which is It's a little uncomfortable but it's kind of perfect, which means you didn't care too much food. But yeah, so it's very not based try to get like 20 of fats and I categorized it 80% of the calories, or what I'm taking are really high calories per ounce and protein fat, like pretty dense. Like you're getting good value for the weight as far as calories in nutrition and then 20% is like what do I want to be eating out there like what's gonna turn my day around and it's usually something Savory or some kind of Snack, mix or maybe even just some crappy crackers, that sound really good and everything, like sour patch kids or whatever it may be, it's like that 20% is this like, all right, this is something to look forward to because you can't just eat spoonfuls of peanut butter, the whole time and be happy with your life. And so, I try to get myself that pass.

[00:51:07] Tayson: We haven't talked about the Colorado Trail fkt, which I want to. I definitely want to touch on, and have you talked to people about that? But are you saying that on the call, right? Oh, fkt Colorado, Trail fkt attempt to all. So ate the same way. Where you're eating. Yeah,

[00:51:21] Jeff: I had.

[00:51:22] Tayson: So how many So how many calories a day do you? Planting on it there? Same thing 5000 or more.

[00:51:28] Jeff: I think that was it 5500. And I packed eight and a half days of food with the antenna finishing and nine days.

[00:51:35] Tayson: So, That's I, I just did you and you ate it, I guess. But, I mean, yeah, that's bizarre to me, right? Because one, if 80% of my food was like nuts and peanut butter and stuff like that, like I wouldn't want to eat it. I would be like, a high altitude. Like it starts to mess with your got a little bit sometimes. And yeah, I would just be like, no, I'm not eating, I can't eat like it would. So that's crazy. To me, I would almost resonate more with when I interviewed Joshua Perry. He was eating, he's like 12,000 calories a day on the PCT, so the different different style, right? But like, Like 9,000 calories of it are just sugars, right? Like gummy bears and M&Ms, and just chunk, right? And so, but, you know, like you're burning at least 12,000 calories a day, if not more, and so, that's, Man, that's really just got my head spinning I guess on. I think

[00:52:34] Jeff: so, I think if I were gonna go after like the PCT or something longer, even the Arizona Trail, it might be closer to eight nine or ten thousand calories a day. But I think in under I don't know, Colorado Trails, pushing it, but for sure, under a week, I think it's hard for your body to adapt to processing up to however many calories you're burning, and you're already going to be at a deficit if you're covering 50 miles a day. And so, for the shorter stuff, I kind of found that Maybe five to six thousand, calorie range, to be that one, without putting too much stress, on your stomach, especially at altitude and on the Colorado Trail. I had plenty of issues. The first three days, just because my body wasn't used to processing that much food at altitude, and then it turned around and hiker hunger, hit huge, and I finished like way more food than expected. So it was very just very skewed distribution when I ate the calories. But I think that the shorter things, it's a lot of using up your body stores already and then all so just maximizing how much your body can process and then when it's something probably 10 days or longer. That's when your body is going to find that Rhythm. It's just like when hiker hunger hits for people of highs is maybe into that second week is when your body start to be able to process the actual amount you're burning. So that's kind of how I think of it and I think that that's exactly what I do on the PCT as well. But something short like the John Maher Trail. You kind of want to finish hunger hungry because every extra ounce you're carrying. You gotta carry that entire way.

[00:54:22] Tayson: I've that's I think that's really, really insightful and a good way to look at it too that you can't obviously can't go from eating like three or four thousand calories a day. Should be kind of like a big day at home, really? to just, Quadrupling that, right? So That's, that's really interesting. So, if you were to go, so I guess you kind of already touched on that. Like, if you were to go do the Arizona Trail, you'd be upping those calories obviously. So what about what about? Just hydration, like, is there any rules of thumb that you follow with staying hydrated? Because I think that, I mean, that's, it's huge. I see it altitude. I preach this all the time. People all the time that go up to altitude and they start complaining that their heads hurting, and I'm like, well, if you've been drinking and like, oh yeah, like I'm drinking, but like, I'm not even sweating, so like I don't even need to drink, you know? But I'm like, hey, you're not sweating because you're in direct sunlight and the wind is whipping. You know what I mean, at the altitude, it's always blowing. And so like you're never going to get like a big pool of sweat when you're at 12,000 feet. Yeah. And so I, I'm just always like a big believer that people start to get dehydrated way before they realize it. And then obviously, then just opens up this massive door for elevation sickness to come in, you know, hard and fast. But are there just any rules of thumb that you fall with hydration? When you're out.

[00:55:43] Jeff: Yeah, I don't think you can drink to thirst. I think you got to be a little bit ahead of that. Like I think it's huge in especially the drier climates and it altitude where sometimes you're not feeling as thirsty because you are at altitude and maybe it's just a sip or something every 15 minutes or something. But I think for one going into a trip hydrated, and then from there, Even if you're not that thirsty, whether it's some additives to your water to make it taste different or whatever, but I think it's a huge thing in one thing I try to do is when I refill water at a streamer, a lake or lake or something. There's all try to, I think a Leader's a little ambitious, but I'll try to get down like a third of a liter or half a liter there, as kind of this, my heart rates lower. I just stopped to get water. It's going to be easier to drink than when I'm going up the hill, huffing and puffing and then kind of you have that way to replenish. Every time you get water you're assured, if you stopped four times a day, you already got in two liters if you're getting and half a liter each time and then from there, you're just trying to drink if you're not just Dying going up the hill. Which is hard to drink then too. So yeah. I think it's really important to the biggest thing is probably going into a trip hydrated because I bet me and everyone else walks around dehydrated daily. So I think it's that's the biggest place to start. If you're going to start a trip, it altitude or here in Montana, it's really dry weather and down in Utah, you get dry weather like you just get dehydrated walking around. So, making a point two or three days before to go and hydrate is going to have more impact on your trip than just trying to drink more while you're out there.

[00:57:29] Tayson: Yeah. um, when you think about staying hydrated, do you like to look at it? Like, I need this much in a day. Do you, do you base your hydration off of the number of hours out there? I mean like because like you can't just drink to thirst, right? So what are you, what are you trying to base? Any of that off of them? I mean you're doing days. Like like, for instance, I went and did rim to rim to rim in the Grand Canyon. And the first day, we went rim to rim to the bottle, and then slept. So we were using fast packs, we had all year with us. And so, it's about 38 miles. I drink 12 liters of water and could have drank in more, but I'm like, I'm like, a 200 pound guy. I'm six to 200 pounds, right? So, I'm And I'm a heavy like I took a sweat test and they classified me as like a level 5 severe sweat guy. So I drank 12 liters and it was still like, you know, I think I could have honestly should have drinking more. Like I got I started cramping at one point just a little bit and not that all cramping is related to hydration but For you, like, what are how much water you putting down or you just do you think your body is just incredibly efficient? Or,

[00:58:41] Jeff: um, yeah, I don't do that well in the heat either. So I usually set a metric or it's kind of based on. So if there's a water source in 10 miles, I'll try to finish the two leaders. I have with me and just a good round Baseline for your average person, that might not know if they're heavy sweater or not, is at least one leader, every five miles. I think is a pretty good gauge and then something like the Grand Canyon, where special at the bottom? It's pretty pretty hot down there. Maybe up that a little bit more, but I will. So if I start out something and the first water sources and 10 miles, I'll probably have two liters or two and a half liters. And my goal is for that, all that water to be gone. By the time I get there and then I'll drink try to drink a half leader there, fill up. And then maybe it's 10 more miles and finish that. By the next one. So it's Lee's longer goals where it's just like you want to be sipping on enough and then you have these shorter periods where you always know like wow I'm not drinking enough water and you know that 10 miles in rather than day two, when you have a massive headache and can't get out of bed.

[Editor’s note: This is Jeff’s personal 2023 hydration approach, not a universal baseline. Hydration needs vary with heat, effort, body size, sweat rate, terrain, and water access; use current qualified guidance for individual planning.]

[00:59:54] Tayson: Yeah. yeah, I think it's it's really smart and I mean at the end of the day, like the best, the best thing to do is just to get out there and figure out some of your own stuff, right. I feel like I've been Investing a lot into hydration lately. As I started to, I only started trail running. I guess I'm coming up on two years now but before that, like, you couldn't you never see me run in my life, you know what I mean? Yeah, just was, I was bigger kid growing up and in the sports that I played, I was, you know, better to be bigger and heavier, you know, but Which was, that's what they told us. Right. But

[01:00:30] Jeff: do you use a electrodes doing your in your water like for the Grand Canyon?

[01:00:35] Tayson: Yes. So that same sweat test that I was just talking about. Like I'm also a level five severe salt output, right? And so I have to take insults. Like I just, I I definitely have to to help retain the water, but also just with the amount that I lose, in fact, on that sweat test which I've I've been learning more about, was probably a hair falsely high, but it was something like Like, you know, like that the hyper the hyper scratch lab hypers, it's like two, it's like 1600 milligrams of salt. Like I can almost drink one of those like per liter of water according to this test. but I think it was a little bit too high in the field and in real life conditions and stuff but yeah I have to I have to take a lot of salt and Supplement in that way. But I I also went way too far. So I ran my first Ultra last year. And I started to cramp up like early, like Mi 10. I'm cramping up and I'm like, I got 45 miles. I guess. It's a total is a 45 mile race. I got 35 miles left, and I'm cramping up like, this is terrible. And so, I like doubled down on my salt. So I went like, way salty and then it, fixed it in the next increment. I had like no cramping. Got the second wind started. Sort of doing really well, and then, I made a fatal mistake of not going back to neutral, not going back to zero. And so then I went through the next section way, salty again. And then I couldn't drink any of it. And then by that point, it was, I was just dehydrated, but I've been, I've been listening to some things recently. I don't know if you listened to the oh, it's his name. Coop coop cast or something like that is

[01:02:21] Jeff: Jason Koop. Yeah,

[01:02:22] Tayson: yeah, yeah. He just had a really interesting episode that I was trying to to dial in the basically that there's some There's some scientific research paper that was just written. That kind of said, like, you don't technically have to supplement with salt and tell you are doing like these massive figured longer efforts. And so I looked back at that race and I think really I had a hydration problem, I probably could have kept my salt, the same the whole time and just really just focused on drinking. But anyways, all that to be said, I definitely take salts, but I'm still trying to dial that in, but I think I actually put probably too much focus on it last year.

[01:03:00] Jeff: Yeah, and I think if anyone wants to get even a little bit more in the weeds, I really like sauna training for stuffed with like dry and heat intense things. And what I usually do is I'll work out and I've done this off and on for three or four years. So if there's something looming, that'll be in a hot dry climate is all work out, do whatever kind of workout, doesn't matter. Just get your heart rate up and then I usually sit in the sauna for 15 to 20 minutes and try to drink a liter of water. And then what I think is the important part is jumping back into 20 minutes of whatever kind of workout, you want getting your body's your heart rate up again. And so I found that to work really good as far as being able to process that water while you're like dehydrated and sweating and then jump right back into physical activity and stuff and kind of just that I don't know, working through that water. Consumption on top of heavy sweating is and then jumping back into that elevated heart rate. So there's there's I think the Carmichael method. There's a few sauna things and you can kind of work out less and get Spit or used to whatever upcoming thing you're doing with a few different sauna things. So, there's cool research on that out there. If there's any nerds that want to dive into that, for their big 100 Mile Challenge.

[01:04:25] Tayson: Yeah, no. I think that's, I think that's really interesting. And, like, in in coach koop's book like he talks a lot, about gut training, right? Like training, like like while you're working out like getting calories in you while you're actually moving and trying to train your gut that way. And I think it all pays dividends, I'd love to hear your take on this. I was I was listening to something with Killian jornet. For those who don't know him, he's Basically the number one Ultra runner in the world and has been for like he's just yeah this is probably the like go to the top athletes that's ever walked the planet that no one knows about but like he's one of the things that they brought up was like, you. I think he summoned a Denali with like, one bottle of water and then they started to talk about that me and it basically If you read between the lines, it seems like. And I've heard that this actually isn't what he's doing today but like maybe this is what he did when he was younger. So, I don't know the validity of this. I love to hear your opinion on it but it seemed like he would actually Train lack of drinking. If that makes sense. Like almost trying to train his body to either consume less fluid or know what to do when you get dehydrated type of type of training. So that because you kind of said, like, you know, if you miss an aid station on an ultra or you have an issue, like, it doesn't have to derail your whole race and so you kind of like trains with that mindset. And it got me thinking of like, dude, I walk around with a bottle of water in my hand or drinking my hand. Everywhere I go every single day, like my body's never deprived of water or the ability to get water, and then I go out on trail and I'm, you know, what I mean? There's not a abundance of water everywhere. I'm like, maybe I need to start training without water. Just, just to see if that benefits me. But because he said, he went and college. So when he was really young, right? He went like five days without drinking water, but he was still working out and then going to school and working out and going to school and on day five, he passed out and that's when he's like, okay, I know my limit now and then, you know, that was the end of his tests, right? It was, it was mind-boggling to me, but I was like, man. Maybe I've been over hydrating or maybe I need to train my body to do this. I mean, sauna sounds like it can, it can kind of do a similar thing. But

[01:06:44] Jeff: yeah, I've done all kinds of these things because I really find importance in it. And I've done both the like I'm hungry right now, but I'm gonna go on an hour run and then I'll eat after. So it's running with that hunger. I've done it where I'm thirsty, and it's hot out and I'll go on a run. And then I've also done it with like today, I ate lunch and then immediately after I went on a run. So I think there's really it's almost just preparing your body for both things and I think you'd think with backpacking and through hiking and even FKS and stuff is we're not really used to eating while working out because that's not something we do in real life. So I think that even just and I think there's a lot of importance and really It really helps to have real food and then if you don't eat that, if you eat more like a snack or trail mix, but even like a piece of toast during a workout or a sandwich or whatever it may be, like is gonna train you above and beyond. And then I don't know if there's Merit to, I don't know if there's any science but the running when you're hungry or running when you're thirsty. I think it at least helps, you know, your body a couple different routes had done. I've bailed out because I knew I'd cross the threshold of thirsty to like dehydration and this is going to get pretty bad and I knew where a creek was like a couple miles away, so it at least helps, you know, your body more. I don't know, if it contributes to being better at anything, but you do learn when your butt up against like, okay. I'm really dehydrated versus just thirsty.

[01:08:27] Tayson: Yeah. I think I think there is something to it and again, I'm no doctor, I'm a scientist. But, in my, my personal opinion, I think when you put those kind of stresses on your body, It it forces your body to learn what to do in those conditions again, right? And then and then your body is more likely to know how to handle it. The next time it comes up so when I think of like That, that Ultra that I did. That was the first time I've ever done anything like that, right? Like I've done like 20 miles runs or 20 mi backpack you know 25 miles even getting close to even the Grand Canyon. Like with 38 Mi day, But it's like every time you do one of those I think your body. I mean it's just so smart that I think it catalogs a bit of like what just happened. This completely shocked our entire system, but like we survived and now we know that we'll survive the next time instead of like cramping to try to like put the brakes on you or just different things like that. And so I think all the things that you're training like that mixed with massive like efforts, it's just gonna train the body to Not freak out the next time you push. You know, an extreme like that, right?

[01:09:43] Jeff: Yeah. I think there's really two things that are big is like once you've done a 38 mile day or run, then a 20 mile day is gonna feel a lot more realistic or easier to do. But if you never have, like, when I started the PCT, my first time, looking back completely physically capable, but it was such a long thing to think about that. I wasn't they weren't consistent and maybe I did my first one, a couple weeks in but nothing was consistent for a couple months until I kind of broke and down that mental barrier of yeah just a little bit more efficient and you're in the 20s easily and I think that applies like up to however many miles, you're wanting to do whether it makes a 30 or 40 miles a day, feel more manageable and then the other thing is very similar to like feeling hungry and still pushing forward or feeling thirsty. It's the same thing with the hallucinations and sleep. Deprivation is if you've been there Before you have that familiarity and kind of know how to navigate it. Like right now. I love going through the night even in 2022. I don't know if it's healthy but there were 20 or there were 15 different nights that I skipped and I had to sleep. Whether it was for an adventure 100 mile race or 250 mile race or an fkt 15 different times. I just completely skipped every second asleep that night. So it Does get easier but you know you have to start with that first time in the first time is going to be pretty tough. Like the first Ultra is going to be tough and you're gonna make mistakes, but that makes the next one a little bit easier.

[01:11:22] Tayson: Yeah yeah. So to simplify this just a little more. I'd say for anyone listening that that these numbers were thrown out. Might be too daunting or too big. My thought would be It wasn't that long ago even for me where a 15-mile day was a full day of hiking. I mean and and then it's like as you get consistent with that or maybe it's a 10 mile day for you just like like Jeff was saying here like If you want to and you keep pushing, those will get easier and easier and and day by day, you'll just continue to build to where. I mean I'm not we went and did the Uinta Highline Trail last summer as a as a team here. So we took five guys out of the office and we all went and did that. And It was like, it was just funny because some of the days were doing like 26 miles and and you know, in a big group too, like you don't get to control the whole day's schedule quite as much and so it ends up being an entire day of hiking, right? Like almost from sunup till Sundown. Like we're pitching our tents right at dusk. A lot of times and we're not sleeping in. You know we're getting up at like 7 or 6:30 and having camp on our back by seven and so but but anyways it's just so funny because in those days it's like dude if we stopped at 20 mi we could just hang out here and be so like that's like nothing you know like we get so much recovery time and so but to some people like 20 miles is a deal breaker, right? And so it's just all perspective and you can always You know do what you're capable of now. And if you want to push those miles just keep doing it and and it'll come for sure for sure. So

[01:12:54] Jeff: yeah oh I just want to say yeah definitely just I think anyone out there it's super daunting. Even just think about I can't fathom 2600 miles which is like the PCT and no one that does it can at all and a lot of people start out and do five miles or something. So I would say much like early in the goal conversation is what is a meaningful amount of miles you want to build up to a day and then it's just the Stepping Stones. As you know, you just got to make the first goal to go out on that first hike, or Runner, or whatever. And then you can build from there. But the hardest thing about all this and why not? Everyone does it is, it takes a lot of days of doing two miles or three miles or four miles. And really, the rewarding part is sticking with it. Whether you actually hit. However, many miles you're going for, but I think it's a pretty Special thing in today's climate, where it's easy to jump goals, really quick to just stick with something. And finally, hit your goal.

[01:13:55] Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. so, I want to shift gears here for just a second and just very quickly, I want to hear what You're like what's, okay? So on a longer effort, where you're gonna sleep, which apparently is is an option. Now, you know that most people sleep, but everyone to sleep, but like let's say you were gonna do Let's say it's the Arizona Trail again. Okay? Yeah.

[01:14:20] Jeff: It's

[01:14:20] Tayson: 800 plus miles. Like you're gonna sleep, you can't do that in one push, right? What are you packing? What are, what's like, what's in your bag? What type of gear? What, what kind of Base weight are you aiming at those types of things?

[01:14:36] Jeff: Yeah to start. Let's just say for relatability and fun that it's like a fun. Casual maybe 30 to 35 de Arizona Trail, through hike, I would aim for a base way of sub, 11 pounds in between 10 and 11. I found 10 pounds just under it to be like the last couple items here, getting rid of our things. I don't want to get rid of. So 11 pounds has seemed to be like a pretty Functional level and then I usually do a quilt. I think they're just especially the Arizona Trail. They're so functional because it can be a blanket or it can be basically

[01:15:17] Tayson: highs and lows that are so extreme.

[01:15:19] Jeff: Yeah. So basically it can be a quilt or like a poor man sleeping bag. So big fan of that. I'm a single wall shelter Guy. Usually a tracking poll base shelter that just On that especially through hike it's just lighter and there's not a lot of condensation in Arizona and then maybe a 40 liter pack. Yeah. I Test gear and use all kinds of different gear. So I'd say, I don't know. There's plenty of plenty of good options out there not to say that. Lots of stuff is the same, but there's plenty of good stuff wherever you want to buy your packs and stuff and then foam sleeping pad because I'm still young enough, but my back can handle the ground with out something like

[01:16:05] Tayson: this. Like a, like a no full. Yeah, I'm like that type.

[01:16:09] Jeff: Yeah. Probably that on an fkt I just used the. I'll usually use a pact with like an insert of padding and then I'll just pull that out and it just covers like my hip bone and maybe my shoulder. So this is luxury. Taking a like a z Folds

[01:16:26] Tayson: I can't I mean let me just ask this and if you don't want to say, don't say but like like what do you like? What's your build? Like how?

[01:16:34] Jeff: Um yeah I'm six foot two 175 so yeah like probably pretty middle the ground taller

[01:16:42] Tayson: so if I lose what did I say? Was like 200 pounds. If I lose 25 pounds, can I sleep on a z pad like that?

[01:16:48] Jeff: No, it's not like that enjoyable, but it's this, it's this thing that I tell everyone is everyone wants to jump on board it's like just make sure and think about that, you want to blow up your sleeping pad every single night before you're going to bed, most people do. But it's something you should just consider before you dive right into the the highest rated, the 200 dollar, one is. So a lot easier to start with the 40 dollar foam, one, and decide. You want an inflatable one, because then you're just, you know, you got 40 dollars on cost rather than realizing I hate blowing this up, do

[01:17:26] Tayson: you? I will say that is my least favorite part of setting up and taking down Camp, all set up my tent twice. Whatever, but like inflating my path. It's just, there's something about it that just bugs, me, and then deflating it, and rolling it.

[01:17:41] Jeff: Yeah.

[01:17:43] Tayson: Now, my favorite thing in Camp, my least favorite probably. And it's not even that. It's that painful it's like two to four minutes of effort. But do you have you trained yourself to sleep on your back? Is that how you can get away sleeping on that thing? And I'm usually a side sleeper and I'm like, man, my hips would be killing me.

[01:18:02] Jeff: It's usually on my, on my stomach actually, so, the complete opposite. But yeah, if I'm going for, I love what I love about here is in 20 minutes. I can be, I can hike in two miles and camp for the night. And then drive, like hike out the next morning and be back here, working by 7:30 in the morning in the summer. So, if I'm doing something like that, I will take an inflatable pad. It's the endless every day, blowing it up. Like you said, that's it just psychologically. I hate it way more than I should. That's such a small short deal, but that's the main

[01:18:41] Tayson: reason that I go. That's crazy. Okay

[01:18:44] Jeff: and then

[01:18:47] Tayson: she said about base weight. Well I'm kind of the same thing. I always try to carve my base weight to 10 pounds but I'm totally happy giving like hitting the trail with the 12 or 11 pound base weight. Meaning that I added one to two pounds of, you know, quote unquote luxury items or things that were just going to make that trip. Better, you know what I mean? So that's typically where I sit to but the trail Runners are saying.

[01:19:12] Jeff: Yeah, Trail runners. Socks pretty, I've tried everything. I don't know, they all work, I guess beyond that. Yeah, just the

[01:19:27] Tayson: tiger tiger shirt, right?

[01:19:29] Jeff: Anything that I got a unicorn one now? Like anything. This is a big thing that I think we should

[01:19:36] Tayson: make your brand now. I think, right.

[01:19:38] Jeff: Yeah. Well tigers for sure but even like at the end of 100 Miler last year I put on a dress or on the last eight miles like these are all like kind of stupid things we're doing with their free time. So you got to find something to embrace the fun in it. So I'll usually have some fun item or two in there whether it's a cut-off, homemade sonipat tiger sweatshirt or or whatever? Yeah, I'm trying to think if there's anything else special.

[01:20:05] Tayson: Your Trail name is is Legend, right?

[01:20:08] Jeff: Yeah.

[01:20:09] Tayson: Surprise. Someone hasn't changed it to Tiger King or something. But where did Legend come from?

[01:20:15] Jeff: On the first through hike I did in 11 at 20 years old. We were camped at Grassy Hollow Visitor Center outside of Wrightwood. And we've made the massive mistake that every thru-hiker hates where you leave town and you didn't pack out like anything to eat. That was good for that night. So you were just gonna eat like Ramen because it made a mistake and so I volunteered to Hitch back into town and get us pizza in every thought there was no chance since it was already getting dark and Hitchens nearly impossible at dark but I got picked up went into town picked up two pizzas and even some steaks the cook over the fire and then hitched back up there and just walked in I didn't even bring my pack walked in and Crocs and just my weird clothing or whatever. I was wearing and brought the pizzas and they called it legendary and the name Legends stuck and then one

[01:21:08] Tayson: awesome

[01:21:09] Jeff: one of my friends still a friend of this day was like, you know, what the trail name like that this can't be your only Through hikes. So I hope he's proud that it didn't become my only through hike.

[01:21:19] Tayson: That sounds gonna say is it seems like that would have come from like an fkt attempt or just massive days on trail but it seems like he just grew right into being legendary, right? So

[01:21:29] Jeff: apparently,

[01:21:30] Tayson: awesome. Speaking of legendary in 2020 I believe I might have the year wrong, you set the collar out of Trail fkt which that's right around High 400s 500 Miles.

[01:21:44] Jeff: Yeah about 500 just under 500.

[01:21:47] Tayson: Massive elevation climb into send. I don't know what it is but I'm sure I mean it's just insane out there. And you made a documentary about it. I watched the trailer. I'm super stoked for it. Tell us a little bit about that.

[01:22:07] Jeff: Yeah, I actually been approached maybe a month before, and by an executive producer about filming a pilot for a TV show, long story short, we filmed it, he didn't pay the crew, there was, I'd like to get a lawyer. It was a huge mess, but I become friends with all the crew and so it was like, well, screw this guy, we can do this ourselves. So, like, used what little money I had. And then had a producer that in everything. And we all just made this movie where I filmed myself out there. They filmed some of the trail. There was no communication between us throughout the whole thing and we just made the like the whole thing was. If I'm doing this unsupported, I don't want any influencer contact from you guys and I am not gonna This interact with you guys, either?

[01:23:02] Tayson: Yeah, winders up

[01:23:03] Jeff: one and then it's like this. Well, I'm gonna trust, you guys are getting footage and stuff on your end and you're gonna trust that I'm getting enough on my end, and at the end of it, it all worked out and we had a movie and so it took two years to edit and put together and all these things that I had to learn, like get a sound guy and a colorist. So that it's kind of theater quality or hopefully ends up on a streaming service after this. But we yeah I made a movie. It premiered in Denver in November and then we've shown it in four cities total and then adding some more or the spring. So it's been a wild ride and never set out to make a movie, but I never really set out to make a boat ride a book or anything either. So I guess it just You know, don't try it comes your way and then it's a lot of work once it's on your plate.

[01:24:01] Tayson: Yeah, it is right. It's so much work to to make content and special when you're doing for that level of quality, it's just another tier But sounds awesome. I mean, I like I said, I watched I watched the trailer. I'm definitely looking forward to watching it. It's, I mean and then and then obviously, like it's just cool to see an effort like that well, documented, right? Like most people go out and do crazy stuff and it's like you get one or two, you know, selfies on their phone and that's kind of it. So I think it's a really cool capture in the sense of what it is like the subject. But then, it looks like you guys got some, some awesome footage, and some really raw footage, I would say as well as far as just You being yourself and catching it in the moment and some of that. So so I think if you go is it onto your so you have a website called free outside.

[01:24:53] Jeff: Yep.

[01:24:54] Tayson: Can people see where that, that is showing.

[01:24:58] Jeff: Yeah.

[01:24:58] Tayson: Or you done touring it at this point?

[01:25:00] Jeff: Yeah we're adding dates. I think just added a Michigan date but yeah they'll all be up on free outside calm slash film and yeah one more thing about the film is wanted to so captured everything I did and then the director Dylan Harris captured everything on the cruise side and everything and then we brought on an editor Jason Fitzpatrick who put it all together. And my big goal was I don't want something that makes me look how I want. I wanted to just look how it looked out there. Like here's what happens, like hero shots. Not like Tom Cruise's, you know. Yeah, yeah, exactly. We'll just naturally looking like a tiger, there's enough here. But yeah, it was like, well, I it was all in Jason's hands of like, just make it look like how it is out there because I don't know. I'm like Teener, 19 or 20 of these things and here is the one chance to show off the crazy things that happen. Like what you're doing out there, how time passes and it's like probably the one chance to give some insight into an effort like this. So that was the whole Genesis and I think what's pretty cool about it is? Yeah, I do get pretty weird out there because that's what happens when you're out there for nine days on your own. And I'm pretty proud of it whether I cringe it how I Am or not. It's all part of the experience and it really happened.

[01:26:32] Tayson: I think I I would hope that the people that are interested in that will be very understanding of like the conditions, right? So yeah, I'm really excited for that. I don't I think the closest one to us is Flagstaff and if I could jump across the Grand Canyon, I would totally drive down to it, but it's like, it's a few miles around. But when you do get it onto a streaming platform, definitely let us know, it'll make sure to send it out on our social side as well. You've also. So you're I was looking around on your website. A lot of really good resource there for people to go and look around and learn and then you've also got a book just give us a quick, a quick hit on what, what is the book?

[01:27:16] Jeff: Yeah, I did the calendar year Triple Crown the 80 PCT and CDT in I think it took me eight and a half months and then someone after I finished it, I should write a book. So I wrote a book and that discussed that describes basically everything. I've accomplished in life of,

[01:27:34] Tayson: you know, it's a little harder here you should do

[01:27:37] Jeff: this. So I did know. It's it's a funny I don't know. I think it's a fun read of the highs and lows and kind of between the ears of what happens out there. When you have 8,000 miles to cover in eight months and you're 25 years old, you don't have much money, you just quit your career that you got into college for and you're On your first winter, backpacking trip. So, I started on February 5th, never backpacked in the winter, and on week two, it snowed two feet on me, I had to learn, not only how to backpack in the winter in the Smoky Mountains but also how to figure out where the blazes are when they're covered in snow. And so, it kind of continued from there and there's a lot of highs and lows and plenty of mistakes. And so I like to say it's a pretty real look of what happens out there, and it's a lot different than some of the YouTube videos. You see where it's, you know, mostly triumphs over the most intense scenarios, there's plenty of low points up there as well. And plenty of moments where I'm wondering what I'm doing. So it's called just free outside and if you're sensing a trend, there seems to be a trend with naming things.

[01:28:55] Tayson: That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, really appreciate the time that you've given us today. Jeff, just wanted to give you one last chance to pitch anything as far as where people can connect it to you or or just any last comments that we didn't hit on that that you'd want to say.

[01:29:12] Jeff: Oh yeah, I'd say well, let me know on Instagram or wherever where there's some good desire to see the film pretty in charge of setting up the tour. Probably gonna do eight to ten more dates. Probably like Salt Lake City, and Seattle, and maybe Flagstaff and Phoenix as well, but kind of piecing together, where the best places to connect and show it in person because it's pretty special to see the reactions to a film in a theater. And that's the whole reason for this style of doing it rather than just putting it up online right away because it's cool to connect with people and that's a big reason and then yeah, in the summer coming out with me like designed with ready was so that should be pretty cool. As far as backpacking meals

[01:30:05] Tayson: and then beyond that to try their new stuff. I tried some of the old stuff recently and I'm excited for the new stuff.

[01:30:14] Jeff: Yeah I so we just sampled just got a sample run of the new stuff that Outdoor Retailer like two or three weeks ago and it was really good. So I'm super Excited and impressed. And yeah, it's exactly exactly where the the bar was set. When decided to go on this journey together, some pretty excited, but it's gonna be some, some good stuff out there and then, yeah, just for you outside everything or Jeff garmi or wherever wherever you want to. find anything and then the last The last words I would say is just yeah, don't block out. Everyone else. When you're setting your goals because you're 10 miles, could be someone else's 100 miles and it doesn't really matter. It's really that self-fulfilling thing. And that's all goal should be. So I wouldn't use me as a metric or anyone else out there because it's it's just I mean, you're gonna excel in different ways in life. So just find the goals that really make you happy and fuel. You forward to pushing them down below up yourself.

[01:31:18] Tayson: Okay. Yeah, I can second that I think the only comparison, even though I fall victim to this all the time, I think the only comparison worth doing in life. Is your past self to your future self, right? So wherever you're at, Just build on your own on your own trajectory and you'll find a lot more happiness I think in life. So I really appreciate it. We'll We'll link a few things to to your your website. And then like I say when when that video is is Out on Just streaming channels as well, I'd love to push that out as well, but I look forward to just seeing what you're up to this coming year, but also going back and watching that documentary and yeah make sure you guys go follow Jeff. He's Definitely living a life full of Adventure, and he's fun to watch. So thanks Jeff.

[01:32:09] Jeff: Thanks for having me.

[01:32:11] Tayson: All right, thanks for joining us on this podcast. That was a phenomenal interview. Really appreciate Jeff's time and make sure to go look up Jeff and see his documentary when that does come out as well as just follow along and other efforts, he has going on. If you have any questions, make sure to reach out with those. You can leave a comment on YouTube where we can respond there or you can reach out to live ultralight podcast at gmail.com and that will forward directly to us to answer in a future episode. If you haven't left us a review, we have five star review, make sure to go do that. It helps us get the word out and Inspire more people to get out into nature. With that, make sure you're subscribed and we'll see you guys on a future episode.