[00:00:00] Tayson: Everybody welcome back to the live ultralight podcast powered by outdoor vitals. Today we have one of your favorite episodes, a product gear Deep dive, on a new pair of Trail shorts that were releasing called the skyline Trail shorts. So as per the usual, we've got Brigham here on the podcast with me. How you doing today? Brigham
[00:00:19] Brigham: doing great. It's another day in paradise.
[00:00:23] Tayson: Yep. The weather's warming up. It's beautiful. Beautiful outside. I'm wondering why we're inside, but I guess you still got to pay the bills and Do the usual day in day out grind, but man, it's nice to see some sun. It's way nice to wake up and not. Be freezing even getting in my vehicle this morning was was pretty. Dang awesome. But if you're new to the podcast, this podcast is all about getting you outdoors, more comfortably and more confidently. And if you're new to product, deep Dives, this is an episode where we're just gonna unpack, the story behind the product. Why we originally were interested in designing the product where we started, what, what ended up coming into fruition with the product? The R&D process of it, just everything that bled into the finished product.
[00:01:13] Tayson: That will be available at the time of this recording. So it's really interesting. Even if you're maybe not interested in this specific product which you should be. So I think everyone needs shorts and you should be doing a little bit of training or or lounging around the house, whatever it is. You're going to need these shorts but I think, from from a perspective of getting to know your gear at these podcasts can be incredibly informative of what an R&D process looks like of what goes into product or maybe what doesn't go into other people's products per se. And that's really, I feel like the story because when we're looking at the skyline shorts, they're not incredibly complex compared to like the number of patterns and pieces that go into say a backpack or other gear
[00:02:02] Tayson: along the way. But that doesn't mean that there's not still a ton of Corners that could have been cut or that. A lot of things that could have been glossed over and design and so with us, you know, our goal is to spend a ton of time in the field. Testing them optimizing them and not cutting any of those Corners. So so if you're interested in this join us, I'm going to pop, open my afternoon, caffeinated drink here, and we're just gonna hang out and talk about The skyline shorts development. So where did this all start? Brigham.
[00:02:38] Brigham: Well. The. I guess it really started when we started developing another piece of gear. That I don't know. We've talked about it before we started development on a Fastback. But part of that, it's a longer process. It's a long process. But in, I guess because we had to to start that development in order to have a really good sense of of that product in like, A Fastback involves some running. And and we we felt like we needed to Be capable physically capable to design, like to use the product that we were going to design. So yeah, we essentially just started doing more running or putting more effort and spending more of our time with running so that we could give the, you know, give the fast pack the best design effort that we can meaning.
[00:03:44] Brigham: We need to be able to be proficient or be, Frequent users of that product product. So yeah. All that meant was, you know, I personally wasn't doing a lot of running and didn't have like, Dedicated running shorts. So we became consumers pretty quick because I was the same thing. I mean looking
[00:04:05] Tayson: backwards. I was like the best thing that ever happened to me was to probably have that conversation with Jeff Pelletier and become interested in fastpacking and running because from a physical standpoint, it just changed so much from a from just a mi on trail and what would like capability standpoint. It changed so much, but yeah, pretty soon we became consumers and buyers of shorts and I feel like there was a time frame there where We were coming in and being like, well I just bought these shorts and what I hate about. Yeah,
[00:04:38] Brigham: we started. Yeah we really just started. Yeah. Being being users of running shorts and Yeah, like you just said liners and knowledge in different shorts. And yeah, trying different combinations of, you know, line and unwind. What? I mean, even different like short and boxer combinations, and all of this so that we could develop a another product. But what it what it did was We quickly kind of started learning what we didn't really like about all the different short models that we were using. And what we did like things we noticed problems solutions and and just kind of started really getting a really intimate. I guess Judgment of what what was working for us and what wasn't and so that really kind of sparked the or gave the impetus to like decide that, well, why don't
[00:05:40] Brigham: we just Work on our own pair of shorts that is going to be good for us to go running in and that's going to be suitable for all this fastpacking that we're doing. So yeah, that's kind of the beginning's. Just
[00:05:54] Tayson: I'm gonna take a side DeTour for just a second because it just re brings up. Something that we talk about a lot, which is All of our best ideas come from time on trail. The more time we spend on trail, the more time we spend using products, we come up with better and better ideas and when I look at something like a short attack, man, There's so many shorts out there. So many people making shorts yet, still there's so many just call them suits behind desks making decisions on what short models need to be rolled out and you know, or maybe designing the shorts themselves to that maybe aren't spending enough time in the shorts or maybe the people that are spending the time in the shorts, don't get enough say and what gets actually
[00:06:40] Tayson: to roll out the door. Just kind of blows my mind, just blows my mind that people that they're actually haven't been some better shorts created and there's different bodies. There's different you know so like I don't want to sound too biased or anything like that but yeah when when I was like just looking backwards now and I'm looking at that I'm like I felt like there was no reason we couldn't find a really good pair of shorts for what we're looking to do yet. I spent a lot of money on shorts and it was never satisfied with. Yeah.
[00:07:09] Brigham: It was a, I mean the process I I really like looking back on it. It's really satisfying, the very natural Progressive process. that we, that we, that we took to just even Deciding that, you know, making a parasaur is something that we wanted to do because it's you know, it doesn't mean that we tried every single pair of shorts out there. But at a point we realized, okay well we're spending all this time doing all this running. We're developing a fast pack and we're learning and becoming more and more proficient at this fast, packing thing and realizing all the things that have entails from like the materials. And the distances you're running that the terrain that you're, you're covering the mileage, the physical exertion, and we really were learning that all of that comes into
[00:08:09] Brigham: play or it all of that influences what we were feeling like we wanted to implement into a pair of shorts, you know because it's a very, it's a very Progressive story of just As we used it, we realized well, we're we're not just going for an hour run, we're not just going for a two-hour run, you know, in the, I'd say, the the full potential of these shorts was, you know, executing a multi-day, fast packing trip. So, that's kind of like, the, the maximum use case, or you know, what we would want. The full potential of the parasaurs, we wanted that's the full potential. We want to reach in and there's, it's just a lot different than even somebody running a marathon. you know, which is that's a, that's a substantial physical effort, but fastpacking
[00:09:08] Brigham: is just a bit different or and as all of this is happening, its kind of shaping kind of all these requirements or these these Ideal characteristics for what we would want, you know? And so when When you're going out into the back country and for us that's mountains and desert. You know, you're you're exposing your body to more environmental elements, you're exposing the clothing, you wear to Extended exposure to the same environmental elements. And and I guess, you know, we really just started noticing that. What we wear actually it was mattering it really mattered because on a lot of times you know, we different guys we are in this shorter that short you know sometimes somebody would be getting somebody wouldn't or somebody might get a hole or rip out something on one pair of
[00:10:11] Brigham: shorts and somebody didn't and certain people were way more susceptible to. Yeah. Exactly. Like for me, I may
[00:10:20] Tayson: Massive sweater. I'm a very heavy sweater. Which then bleeds straight down into increased in chafing versus I feel like Derek hardly sweats and I feel like he is one who rarely would have issues with Chafing compared to me where it's like, that's a primary focus when I start running and covering 30 miles a day with extra sweat and moisture going on there. Like It's not comfortable, very really quickly. If you've got the wrong gear, it becomes a major pain point. and not to derail if you're going on there but there's like yeah like I would just second all of that that as we push farther and farther, it's like what we always say is a good piece of gear is a gear that can almost go unnoticed and we were noticing
[00:11:11] Brigham: Right. yeah, and and it's again, it goes into a lot of the A lot of the issues aren't something that you know you or I or anybody else is going to really notice. After like I said in our long run, you go run six miles and a lot of the issues. um, don't surface until like The end of a full day of, you know, covering, I don't know what 2025 miles in the mountains, you know? We're, you're mixing, you know, running a lot of hiking, but then you're, you're carrying gear your filtering water. You're exposed to rain, you're exposed to heat and Sun. That's where we started noticing. The all these different elements and influences. So speaking on what we
[00:12:01] Tayson: were, maybe unhappy with I would say. from what I recall, the things that I was unhappy with and the pieces that I was purchasing and trying out were number one, like I had to reduce the amount of chafing so I was trying Liners in a lot of the shorts and I was trying, you know, briefs I was trying the boxer links I was trying A lot of them had different materials in them, so some of them would start out really great and then once they got saturated and wet, they would start to bag out the same and then create Chief Edge. So that was a major pain point. I remember some of them, I was like, hey, this one's okay. It's working pretty well, but it didn't have any pockets on it. And so that
[00:12:45] Tayson: became just a real, big annoyance plus like the, you know, I just little things like that, some of them were really light and maybe even affordable, but We're like five inch running shorts, you know, and I was like okay these aren't these aren't too bad for me as long as I pair them with the right underwear underneath, but then like I don't want to go anywhere in these like, like I go straight to the trailhead and straight home because I'm uncomfortable in public, essentially in them. And anyway, so that was just a few of the things that I remember right off. But for me, a lot of how to do with just Comfort over the miles that I was really aiming for.
[00:13:26] Brigham: Yeah, I think it's very similar for me. It's it's just, It's not necessarily the things that you that the things you notice are not like really what you like about it. It's the things that are bothering you or me in this case, you know, like notice that, you know, maybe the the crotch was a little bit too low. And so after just mile after mile, you know, that's where some chafing would start to occur. Just because, as you take a step that that excess fabric because of the crotches too low, you know, starts rubbing the inside of the thigh, you know, maybe the the, you know, the waistband either bunching or creating hot spots or something. If I were using it under a backpack,
[00:14:15] Tayson: Just a lot of things. I got one when the when the when some of the shorts would get wet it would start to basically lose shape or deform or bag out so much that it's like when I started I'm like man these are working really really well and just comfortable the longer. I went the more they'd start binding up on my legs and you know like the like like your leg could easily slide through the material. Let's say, When it was dry but then it got wet, it gets more sticky. It starts to bag out more and suddenly a range of motion was getting limited. Not that was one that I experienced. Yeah. One that was, I found really interesting is and this is a personal preference thing, not necessarily a fall of any pair
[00:14:59] Tayson: of shorts. But you know, Anytime I was using running shorts.
[00:15:06] Brigham: And pairing them with like, you know, underwear boxers, compression shorts, whatever. I started realizing like that. I'm not really that big of a fan of trying to find this right combination of the shorts and the underwear. And then that's yet. Another thing that I'm packing and on these multi-day trips where you cover 25, 30 miles in a day and even if it doesn't rain at all, all that sweat is now in like the compression shorts, right? And then I don't want to sleep in that. I mean I can I'm capable of doing that but it makes it much
[00:15:48] Tayson: a much
[00:15:48] Brigham: a much more enjoyable experience because that's why we're out there doing it. Even though even when we do these difficult things, we're still doing it to enjoy the experience. And so I found personally that I wasn't a fan of this whole idea of having a pair of shorts and then a pair of under Where that had to be the right pair of underwear. So I didn't get cafes with that pair of shorts. And then at night, either sleeping in just that muggy damp pair of compression shorts, or taking them off, to put something else on. And then overnight, they don't dry out because they're just soaked, right? And then putting those on the next day, and and running more miles. And then realizing well, the, I guess one potential solution is to bring an extra
[00:16:35] Brigham: pair of underwear. Well, now I'm packing an extra pair of underwear. And so one of the things that I really learned for myself, was that I really enjoyed or came to enjoy not having to worry about underwear at all and using a pair of line shorts that breathes well and now I'm not having to pack extras of anything and they're so breathable and they're the actual You know, square footage or the square inches of that liner so small and it's so breathable that it would dry quickly. And that's just one less thing that I wasn't having to worry about in my nighttime bed routine and then repeating that, you know, two and three days, it just made it for a more enjoyable experience for me. And I feel like it did reduce the possibility or
[00:17:26] Brigham: the potential for like Jason.
[00:17:28] Tayson: Yeah. I think there's there's a lot of good there to unpack, but I think that I think they've got the point on like, man, we weren't totally happy. We thought we could build something better for our use case scenario. so we set out to, to do this and usually I'd say we start by General like, like We start laying out some parameters, right? So I think we wanted to reduce chafing, we wanted to find better materials that worked for us in the Long Haul that we're both going to be stretchy and quick drying. Able to vent really well for us. We really wanted to play around at the fit of shorts, so that maybe we could we could bring up the crotch height or the rise of them. So, we could reduce chafing and set
[00:18:13] Tayson: of having a really baggy crotch area that just lent itself to an infinite number of possibilities or discomfort. So kind of laid all these things out there. And so I mean almost immediately you're going to start sketching things out on the computer and whatnot, but let's talk a little bit about materials and finding some of those and where that kind of side of the story began.
[00:18:39] Brigham: Yeah. Yeah, we went through. And looked at I mean I don't feel like we had any kind of limitations to materials in terms of fabrics that we would we would use and we had some ideas of what we would want. Like you mentioned we wanted to to dry quickly and so that means a couple things that means definitely like a fully synthetic you know short and probably polyester and the other thing that helps things dry quickly is that it's a lightweight fabric but through all this This. Kind of field research of going out there in the mountains and running. We realize we don't want something that's so light that it's going to become like a fragile pair of shorts. And so start looking at Fabrics that had some stretch. We're probably Esther were woven for
[00:19:36] Brigham: more durability and breathe a bit, but maintaining breathability but not so lightweight that they lose too much durability. And then again, like maintaining a level of durability that we can have confidence in the shorts, you know, mile after mile day after day in, you know, pretty austere. Environments of like very, very remote Backcountry settings. So that kind of Guided what we were looking for in in fabrics and materials. And then, you know we also decided That. We probably wanted to just offer a line and an online version and so if we're doing a line version, what does that liner maintain material liner fabric? You know what's that look like and and you know so we kind of went on a search To find a liner fabric that is going to do what we wanted it
[00:20:29] Brigham: to do.
[00:20:31] Tayson: yeah, the and the liner fabric that we use is this stretch Jersey mesh, it's a phenomenal mesh. I personally have a similar mesh on any other product of my own. And I remember when we first got a hold of that were like wow this is this is it like this? It was a very instant like love at first sight scenario for me because it has both the breathability aspect of it. But it also has a very good retention, you know? Some meshes they get wet and they can really start to bag out or lose shape. I've had really good success with this, in both the terms of durability and also in terms of it holding his shape. Yeah.
[00:21:14] Brigham: So the mesh that we ended up using another benefit or I guess another really good property of it is. For this application and where we put it in the shorts for being a mesh. It's not like a see-through mesh, which is important because it's in the crotch, right? So it's a whole full crotch gusset and on the outside of the legs and in the pockets. But it's it's just really cool because it looks it looks solid from, you know, from a distance. But if you hold it up to light you can you can see the all the The breathable space in in the mesh. And so it's that includes both when it's wet and dry.
[00:21:59] Tayson: Yeah, like yeah,
[00:22:01] Brigham: that's really cool. I mean, and we did and we've tested different colors to kind of make sure that there's not going to be any You know, visible discomfort issues in terms of being too transparent. But yeah, it's it's a cool mesh. It definitely does exactly what what
[00:22:19] Tayson: we were looking to do. Then then they polyester the woman polyester, we ended up using. I've been super happy with that. It's really, really lightweight polyester. I mean, the shorts themselves. Let's just go ahead and give the weights on these because it's it's worth noting. So, without a liner, there are 4.4 oz and with the liner they're 5.4 Oz per medium.
[00:22:43] Brigham: Yeah,
[00:22:43] Tayson: size medium. So like if you're watching on YouTube, you'll be able to see this but like you can roll these things up and they're dang near the weight in size of like a boxer. Like just a pair of underwear, if it's like a cotton pair of underwear or something like that, they're just they're incredibly light, but a part of with that, with the fabric side, that's just so awesome being so light is, is they do just dry at a ridiculously fast rate. So if you're like me, You're going to saturate out, a pair of shorts at some point, during a day, from effort and sweat, or moisture from rain or whatever. There's a solid, very good chance that they will completely redraw during the day. Maybe even over a lunch period. Yeah, sure. And so
[00:23:33] Tayson: it's it's just a phenomenal, quick. Drying piece. Do have a dwr coating on them, which is kind of which first, like we kind of tested it and we're thinking about it. And it's not so much to, like, I don't know, like the rain
[00:23:49] Brigham: shorts, right? Right.
[00:23:50] Tayson: But, but like even sweat falling off of your body will will glance off of the shorts and, and not necessarily just absorb straight in. And then in some ways I think that it can help also just with the dry, how fast it dries. I don't know if that's true or not, but they do dry really fast and they do dwr kind of does shed some of that moisture off, which is, which is at first. I was like, I don't know if I like this, and then after I was like, no, this is really reducing the amount of sweat, just staying or landing and staying in the short.
[00:24:19] Brigham: Yeah.
[00:24:20] Tayson: So we've got those aspects, obviously, they're stretching. It's a, it's a four-way stretch
[00:24:24] Brigham: or when mechanical stretch.
[00:24:26] Tayson: So there's no, no spandex in here. And one of the one of the big things I love about that is If you're me and bring them have been testing these for a long time. Now, you wear them to the gym every day. And if you've ever had a pair of gym, shorts specific like gym shorts, like I have a pair from a very well, known brand, and So much spandex in them and the materials are so heavy that they just hold moisture. Like, if I were to go to the gym, get all sweaty in the morning, I can put them like hanging up throughout the work day and I can come home and they'll still be wet at the end of a work day. And To do with the materials sometimes it's spandex. Sometimes it's
[00:25:08] Tayson: the thicknesses ETC, but it's it the lack of Spandex and the lack of them being a heavy material really and they're quick drawing nature. Really. Lends them to be very odor resistant, so multi-day efforts like, like Brigham talked about sometimes like, just using one pair of shorts for for multi-day fast packing trips or, you know, for, like, for us. And you're going on, a 100 mile, through hike or something like that. Using one pair of shorts the whole time without developing ridiculous. Amounts of odor is a real thing. Just buy the properties of them staying dry. Being able to dry out and not just build bacteria by accumulating a bunch of moisture in it. So the fabric itself has just been to me tremendous. I've been very very happy with with both the mobility. The
[00:25:58] Tayson: durability quick dry nature of it.
[00:26:02] Brigham: Yeah, it's nice. It's a it's a it's a fairly I would call it a fairly soft hand feel or it's not shiny and that's often an indicator of, you know, kind of how the fabric is made and how it's going to feel against the skin. It's it's not a shiny Fabric and and that also oftentimes is an indicator or breathability so it's it's a breathable Fabric. And yeah, I think it's just a really good. Balance of durability and breathability, and stretch and all, and all those things that contribute to a drying quickly, so you don't facilitate odor buildup. And
[00:26:40] Tayson: it's good fabric. So let's talk for a second about the specific cut, like one of the things that we've talked about before internally, a lot is when you design for a specific use case scenario. You can often design a much better product for that specific use. So for instance, if I was taking a pair of gym shorts out on the trail, they're not going to perform as well on the trail as they would in the gym or if I was going to take a pair of basketball shorts from the basketball gym out of the trail, they're not going to perform as well. Just because the designers and inherently of those products are designing for specific movement, patterns or specific temperature ranges or whatever, you know fill in the blank. And so with us starting with
[00:27:23] Tayson: the end in mind of, you know, 20 mile days. Let's just say whether you're running Or hiking those miles doing 20 plus miles a day, was kind of the, the Avatar. I would say that we were putting and just multi-day efforts long amounts of time in the shorts per day is probably another good way to put that like, you know, spending from sunup to sundown in the pair of shorts and moving the entire, you know, a lot of the time. So what kind of what did we change about the shorts to be better for for that use case scenario. As far as a cut and fit perspective.
[00:28:02] Brigham: Yeah. so, I mean, kind of bracketing things in knowing that one of the primary use cases would involve running. You know, we didn't want the shorts to be. Long basically kind of the important. Aspect is that the the bottom of the shorts and above the knee for running shorts? You know, I kind of I feel like that's pretty mandatory. I think. Most people can relate to that when you're running with shorts that extend to the knee or below the knee. There's just Get dragged. the shorts, get caught on the knee, all out of the time if you're stepping up over a rock or taking a high step, it just Shorts, that are too long, create drag, which is resistance, which is causes more wear, and tear on the body and more effort and more energy
[00:29:01] Brigham: expended. So, you know, knowing that these shorts are going to go through a lot of running. So we wanted them to be short enough, that they End above the knee. So you have really good mobility and full range of motion of your legs and knees. But we also didn't want them to be. I think we learned that like we didn't want them to be too short because now exposes the legs to more sun and because we're not talking about like a two or three or four hour, Window of time here we're talking about like a 12 to 14 hour window of time of daylight and exposure and so really realize that we wanted to kind of dial in the inseam length or the length of the leg of the short. And so yeah, we didn't
[00:29:52] Brigham: want to be too short and all. So oftentimes on these Trails, the more remote you get, oftentimes the trails are less maintained so you might have more More brush or branches and trees and bushes extending over into the trail, so there's more exposure of the leg to get scraped up. And so yeah, kind of ended up on the 8 in inseam that we that we've got felt like that was a really good balance of having really good mobility and increased protection over a lot of like the running, the dedicated running shorts out there, you know, and and the shorts are still very lightweight and then so that's as far as like the length of the shorts. Is how as far as how they fit? That's another thing that we want to dial in again with
[00:30:46] Brigham: like a full 12 plus hour day of movement in mind. So we wanted them to be roomy enough to be breathable. It's allow air to circulate or heat to dissipate or airflow. uh without being so roomy that in a wind that they're going to catch the wind and create more wind resistance or drag on the body and then excess fabric, when you've got too much of it then you start getting into chafing issues because you start having the shorts pull and weird areas because there's excess fabric that folds and then when your legs move, it creates a hot or a tension point on the fabric and that contributes to chafing, and, so we want to we we basically dialed in a fit that's, you know, Has excellent mobility and range of motion but is still
[00:31:45] Brigham: breathable and they feel unrestricted and they don't feel like something that you're going to get hot in after a couple hours. And then we kind of we talked about this earlier in all the, the testing of all these other running shorts that we we found was that the base of the rise, which is kind of the distance between the the waistband and the crotch The rise is critical in reducing the potential for chafing especially on because, you know, somebody tape some body types, you know, just the, the geometry of their, their physique. Basically, you know, they're really lucky to just not be prone to that, but somebody types are more prone. To chafing. And then when you add in some people's physiology, that sweat more than that, that is even further contributes to the problem
[00:32:49] Brigham: of Jesus. And so, we, we really found that the rise and where the bottom of the crotch sits is a pretty critical factor in that, that Comfort after, you know, a full day of, you know, running or hiking or combination of both. Specially when the shorts get wet or sweaty. And so we we definitely paid a lot of attention and you know, made a lot of little adjustments to that prototype after prototype to to get to where we're happy with it.
[00:33:25] Tayson: Yeah, I mean on that note because I'm I'm definitely fall into that category that's probably just a much higher risk of chafing. Probably the best way to not get chafing to occur is to get a very good pair of compression shorts. Well what there's pros and cons to compression shorts, right? Like they're they've got a lot of spandex in them. They're heavier because of that, they can hold moisture and so When I when I use compression shorts, then the benefits though, are that they usually can stay very tight against the body. It's just buy more of a factor of having, a lot of spandex in there. A lot of Liker in there that, that holds it up. And so, when I was using anything, other than that, that the items that start to bag out
[00:34:16] Tayson: in the crotch area, and then almost instantly chafing would start to occur. So the thought behind raising up the rise in the center of the shorts. It, the crotch area is Was really, to reduce the amount of bagging out or sagging that could occur there and keep fabric between the legs as much as possible and not have that change over the course of time with moisture or stretching and relaxing of fabrics. So that's been, that was to me, that was one of the biggest things that we put into this short. We dialed in both how to raise that rise in the short, but not reduce Mobility, because What a lot of other shorts out there will do is it's like, okay, you can keep the rise low and then you just make everything more baggy
[00:35:02] Tayson: and then it all just works, you know what I mean? Like, I have a lot of, like, these running shorts that are five inch, or seven inch inseams, and they're like parachutes as far as how wide they are and how much room is in there. And it's just kind of like this failsafe of like you can drop the crotch pretty low but as long as everything is Oversized at all, it all works. And so dialing in this fit was no easy thing. In my mind to both be able to bring that rise up, but not reduce the mobility of the piece while reducing the amount of chafing that it could occur over time. So, Hopefully that I'm trying to shed light on what is kind of a complicated thing to design in a short. But
[00:35:45] Tayson: that does make a world of difference on the trail especially mile after mile after mile an hour after hour after hour. I think so I think we've got that aspect. I think the last thing maybe just to hit on. Well, there's two things I guess still in the, in the cut of them. I don't think we mentioned this but the front of the short, the bottom we call this a hem. Yeah, of the short is a little bit higher up in the front than it is in the back and that just helps with mobility and also in the back a little bit more coverage, you know, back of the legs are definitely a place, you get a lot of Summer burning going on and so that's just a little bit there. It looks good as
[00:36:27] Tayson: well, but it's, it's mainly just getting as much Mobility as we can with with coverage. And then let's talk just for a second about the back of this piece and this is kind of one of those areas where You'll see this on maybe some shorts or pants or or whatnot, but this is just an example of where we're not. Cutting Corners right? We've added in this back yoke so explain what a backyard is its I mean one I'll explain what it is and then you maybe explain what like why you would put that in there but basically this back yoke is a piece of additional fabric that butts up against the waistband of the short and I would say kind of looks like it's a volumizing piece in here but it's just an extra piece
[00:37:07] Tayson: of material so it's an extra pattern to cut out it's an extra piece to sew into the short so why is it worthwhile to add that into a short Brigham?
[00:37:15] Brigham: It's just another tool to help with. How the shorts fit on a three-dimensional body? you know, the basically the buttocks area from from the waistband down, you know, it's Three dimensional it's curved and curves differently on different people. So yeah, it's just another way of getting a good comfortable fit with without just making the shorts bigger everywhere, you can kind of add volume. Especially you can add volume for curved areas of the of the body and you can tweak that by by just using a backyard like that adjusting, how its curved. So it's just a way of creating a good, a good fitting pair of shorts that has the right volume, you know, where where it can affect comfort.
[00:38:08] Tayson: Okay. I think that cuts a lot of the explains, a lot of the the cut of the pant. Let's talk about just some of the features. Obviously, it's a pretty simple product, but yeah, we did, you know, go through a lot of iterations of pockets. Yeah, so we landed on a on a pocket. We've got two Side Pockets, two hand pockets, and really the goal of those is to be able to have a place to put stuff throughout the day or it's not going to fall out. When you sit down, I have a lot of shorts that I'd sit down on my phone would fall right out of the pockets and potentially get damaged. Have I have actually done that, with a pair of running shorts on a brand, new phone cracked, a screen by
[00:38:48] Tayson: them just sliding. Right out of my, my shorts, I had other shorts where the pocket was so low that they the pocket would fall out of the bottom of the Hem of the short. And I had a lot of shorts that had no pockets. And so, for us, I think the concept here was while we don't advocate for like, running with things in your pockets, or even really hiking with things in your pockets. You still want pockets? Yeah,
[00:39:13] Brigham: it's again a lot of this A lot of these requirements we'll just call them design objectives. Like we we knew after all this testing that we wanted pockets in and where that comes from is again, it's not from going and doing a, an eight mile run around town. It goes from, you know, doing a 20 to 25 mile day in the mountains where You're stopping for lunch, you're stopping multiple times a day to filter water. And so what does that entail? Okay. That entails you stop. For a second, you pull out a little, a little water filter and you grab your water bottle or your flask. You take the lid off and now because you have a pocket, these are things that we learned are worth having like you've got a pocket. So you can
[00:40:00] Brigham: stick the lid to your water bottle in your pocket. While you're filtering, the water into the water bottle, and then when you need to grab that the lid to the water bottle to put back on the water bottle. Then you put your filter in your other pocket. And these are just conveniences that that really add up to efficiency mile after Mile and convenience. Because that that convenience oftentimes equals efficiency and just like little things like that. When you're trying to maintain a pace throughout a day, you know, things like your, let's say you're just hiking. You're like on The High Line Trail. Where maybe we're not stopping to filter water. Maybe I want to put some electrolyte mix in my water bottles while I'm walking. Right? So now it's that same scenario of it's just
[00:40:52] Brigham: an easy natural place to put a water bottle cap in there, take an electrolyte mix out of the other pocket because I've kind of planned ahead for efficiency. So maybe I put four little packets of electrolyte mix in one pocket that I know is going to cover me for, basically, from morning until the lunch stop. So, it's that efficiency and that convenience combined, together of things, like, yeah, we we wanted to have pockets because in the application that we're we're looking for their, their very useful
[00:41:26] Tayson: for me. I love to put my phone in like a hip belt pocket or shoulder strap, pocket on a backpack when I'm moving, but then when I stopped, I like to pull that out and put it in my shorts pocket. If I'm filtering water like Of times, I want to look at a map or a lot of times I want to take a picture and that's a great time to have a place to just, you know, like you're setting your pack down to filter, the water you're setting your pack down to eat lunch and so being able to throw my phone into my pocket, just it mattered to me to be able to have that access and then and then to take it a step back maybe from I mean that is the intended use
[00:42:02] Tayson: of these shorts. We haven't got into it yet but The use range of these shorts is incredibly broad, but yeah, so if we back it up a little bit into more broad spectrum, you know, Keys getting like if I'm gonna go on a morning, trail run or go to the gym and do some training or whatever it is. Having the ability to pop my phone and keys into my pocket. Even if it's temporarily is So handy, but also be able to feel like I can sit down and not lose things. We've also added in the right pocket, A sewn in smaller. I don't know what you call this a smaller pocket like a key pocket or a or a card pocket so that if you did need to throw an ID or a credit card
[00:42:45] Tayson: into your pocket or a key in your pocket, it's more securely locked into that pocket, especially if you're not running, you know, you don't want things to bounce out of your pockets or again, for me, sitting down and standing up. You don't want things to slide in and out of your pockets, on a pair of athletic shorts, which is something. I've had happened
[00:43:03] Brigham: all the time,
[00:43:03] Tayson: losing your phone, when you sit down to filter water and then getting up and Hiking a couple miles before you realize, it would be really a detriment to your day, you know? So having secure pockets and, and whatnot. Just was a really important factor for us. Yeah,
[00:43:19] Brigham: and like you said, I think we'll, we'll lead into that here in a bit like all the other use cases, but yeah, it as far as the other designs, you know design elements of the shorts, you know, there's there's a drawcord or drawstring you know to cinch things up a little bit if You know, sometimes what will happen is, you know, a multi-day thing, you can lose a little bit of weight or throughout the day, you know, you get a little dehydrated, your, your, your waist will get a little
[00:43:55] Tayson: smaller. So drawstring, that's not liner and I think a lot of circumference. Yeah, that's true.
[00:44:01] Brigham: So there's a drawstring and then, like we said, full crotch gusset with that that really breathable jersey knit mesh and then that same mesh is used on the, on the sides of the legs. And then one thing that's often, maybe overlooked is Pockets, we didn't put zippers on the pockets because we want them to be very, very simple and kind of foolproof easy and intuitive to use, but the overlooked part with a pair of, I'll call these like an athletic short you're building up. A lot of body heat is pockets. Are they're, they're just vents, they are venting. They are venting feature of a pair of shorts, and so.
[00:44:53] Tayson: They do. I mean, they usually
[00:44:54] Brigham: absolutely, I think that's that's why I say they're they're it's their It's understated or under realized that that the pockets themselves are a way for heat to evacuate from the body. And so we use the same mesh as the crotch gusset. We use that same mesh in the pockets, we could have Done. We could have used the main fabric for the pockets. But this main fabric is much less breathable than the than the mesh. And so basically we would have kind of plugged up the breathability of the pockets. If we were to use the main Fabric in the pockets. So we wanted maximum breathability even in the pockets. Yeah, I mean that's kind of That's pretty much the feature set of the shorts.
[00:45:45] Tayson: Yeah, I think the last thing just to call out on the design feature set is is the stitching on them. So we've got double stitching throughout the entire short. There's some areas that look like they're single stitch. But on the inside there actually double stitched and so just increase your ability, these are going to take some serious abuse. We expect them to take some serious abuse out there. And so we want them to last and double stitched throughout them as well as if I'm not mistaken, we end up using a specific thread.
[00:46:16] Brigham: A stretching thread, they're stretching thread. It's, I mean, it's hard to notice. But yeah.
[00:46:23] Tayson: But they are the little, all these all these little pieces that definitely bleed into performance and longevity of the shortness is a short that we definitely want you to tap for a long time. So On top of that, I would say they ended up looking pretty. Dang good. Just throw that out there, you know, I mean, so the two color, the two colorways are black on black and I only say that because if you look at the other colorway, it's it's I would call it Blue on Black or black on Blue. I don't know. It's the main fabric is blue but the everywhere that's got that, that Jersey mesh is black. So the pockets, the sides, the crotch gusset and the liners on the line version. Is the black mesh and then the black colorway,
[00:47:11] Tayson: it's black main fabric with the black mesh. And yeah, I think they look pretty good. Super comfortable. Whether you're hiking or even lounging, I really just enjoy wearing them and spending time in them. They look good. It's something that if you're through hiker, you could absolutely be the Mi and roll into town and not feel like you're, I don't know where in a five inch running short that doesn't doesn't look good or you're showing most of your leg or whatever it is. So it's really a piece that I feel comfortable going to the park with my kids, as well as getting out there and running an ultra marathon in them. So It's just got a very wide use scenario, and that's something we've discovered along the way too. Yes. We designed it for this specific
[00:47:59] Tayson: purpose, but they're very, very multi-use and, you know, maybe that's just a factor of us, you know, designing for a specific Avatar. We uncovered some really beneficial ways of making the shorts. But yeah, I mean, for me personally, I obviously use them for running a for hiking. I've Mountain biked in him this morning, I have swam in them multiple times. They're, they're my swim shorts. I love to take them traveling because when I take them traveling, I have a lounge pair of shorts for whatever I'm doing. If I want to just go work out really quick in the morning, I have those. And then if I forget to bring its worse, pair of swim trunks or there's a hot tub that I didn't know about or something and we're gonna go get in. I have
[00:48:42] Tayson: them for that and they dry so quickly that you could, you could literally get out, rinse them out, hang them up and probably go to a workout the following morning in the pair of shorts. And so they're massive range of use case scenarios here. And so I've taken them everywhere from Europe, to Asia. And the last year, I've ran an ultramarathon in them. I've done a true hike in them. I've worn them day in and day out at home just being active with my kids. I've mountain bike to them just a massive, massive use case there and they've been. I mean, and again, this makes this is gonna sound bias, but we help I have designed these but like, just absolutely love the shorts. Like, I'm very, very happy with them. And all of those
[00:49:22] Tayson: areas that I've put them in, I am happy to have some new colors, because a lot of times when we're prototyping, I have the same color of shorts. And man, we went through a lot of iterations, like I have a whole shelf in my closet. I feel like is just got so many versions of lined. And unlined iterations that I'm happy to have a new color here and well too. I guess both of the, the finished models are new colors and just a massive range of motion. Oh, yeah. And I didn't mention this, I, I work out in these whenever I go to the gym, like, that is my gym short as well. So yeah,
[00:49:52] Brigham: I think it was it was really cool to to realize as we were developing these That everything all the effort we were doing into making them work really well for kind of that specific use of like being being light and fast in the back country. Whether you're running, you know, fastpacking or hiking all the thought and like deliberate. Aspects of the shorts that we're focused on that actually ended up making them work really well for so many different things. Like, I've I mean, yeah, I would, I would second the, like, the gym I, Wear these to the gym like exclusively and they they just make a great pair of gym shorts. They make a great pair of running shorts, you know, I I don't, I don't care to expose my leg that much to wear
[00:50:56] Brigham: like a five inch inseam. Pear running shorts, But but so they work great for running. They work great for the gym and they are they actually are my primary swimsuit. I'm not a big swimmer meaning, I don't like, I don't really like to swim much, but when I go places with my family, I purposely packed these shorts as my swimsuit because because they do dry so fast. I have the lined version and they're so lightweight, they're easy to just pack, you know, there's there's no, there's no virtually, no penalty, you know, in terms of volume of a travel backpack or suitcase to stuffing these in there to use as a swimsuit So they're they've just worked really well. I've also Mountain biked in them and then yeah, they're they're just they they work really well
[00:51:47] Brigham: for so many things and I do think one of the nice things about them is they They don't have like a running short, look, which is a bit polarizing. You know, there's plenty people out there that are just totally comfortable wearing their very short, running shorts out for everything, but I think a lot of people aren't really that into wearing their running shorts everywhere. Whereas, I think a lot of people will find that these shorts are something that you could wear, without feeling like you, stick out like a sore thumb in a lot of scenarios. So,
[00:52:31] Tayson: So I want to talk about a couple more things here. I want to talk about the pros and cons of the line versus online. Yeah, that's good. That's too. But I also want to just mention along with that like with this Know that these are premium pair of shorts meaning. They're not some like Walmart or fabletics like get 10 pairs for whatever bucks, you know. Like they're, they're just not that, they're a very premium fabric, very premium amount of laborers going into these out of a Premium Factory. The mesh, even the mesh itself. Like I remember just costing out the mesh, like it's, it's a premium short, which, you know, it's so. So in that sense of it like makes sense why it becomes our go-to for everything, right? And I think that just ties
[00:53:19] Tayson: into our mentality here at Dr. Vitals to to live ultralight, you know, realistically buying one pair of these shorts can do as much as two, three, four pair of everything else. I I love my wife to death, but man, she buys so many swimsuits and buy like with swimsuits. I feel like she also will buy me swimsuits, and it's always like, why did you get me? Another swimsuit. Like, well it's it's cheap and you know, whatever. And but then I wear and I'm like, this thing is so uncomfortable. Like walking to the beach hurts, you know what I mean? Like, or just whatever it is and so then I inherently won't use that product again. Like I'm like I don't like those swimsuits. Okay. It was only a fourteen dollar swimsuit but like a one-time,
[00:54:03] Tayson: use 14 dollars, swimsuit costs way more to your wallet and to the environment then getting a pair of shorts that you will absolutely love to use. Premium materials are built to last a very long time and so just use constantly write that are going to last years. So keep that in mind as you look at these. Because I mean I think that just does believe in like they work for all of these things. Because they are like they're a very premium short with premium fabrics and premium design that went into them. You know, and that's not to say, they're going to be ridiculously expensive, we are direct to Consumer company, so we're able to cut a lot of that, that extra markup. That happens with retail stores out, but I just wanted to throw that
[00:54:44] Tayson: that little caveat in there. But let's talk now for a second about the line versus online and who should choose what? So I have an opinion on this, but I'll have you start off on this. I, yeah, I know you're a big fan of the line ones. I love him too, so maybe let's start there.
[00:55:04] Brigham: um, so Hmm. How to approach this? It is tough. I I prior to developing these shorts. I would not have been one that would seek out a pair of lined shorts. Yeah for pretty much anything other than swim trunks and honestly like I don't swim that much. But the last pair of swim trunks, I bought was probably over a decade ago and they were Bored Shorts. You guys remember board shorts like for comfortable, very mobile giant legs but they they take like eight hours to drive and a 90 degree son in, you know, like so. So anyway but line shorts. I never would have considered buying them you know, other than when we bought a bunch to test.
[00:55:56] Tayson: So it's coming with like the comb in the pocket.
[00:55:58] Brigham: I had.
[00:55:59] Tayson: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I remember,
[00:56:03] Brigham: yeah for sure because I needed that, right?
[00:56:05] Tayson: Gotta like a cold or a surfer like waxing tool pocket like that.
[00:56:10] Brigham: Yeah,
[00:56:12] Tayson: everyone. You talk absolutely.
[00:56:16] Brigham: Yeah. But but once we started developing these and doing all this testing, I just started realizing that having the liner in there, it was just working really well for me. I felt like I liked the They felt more. The compared to the combination of the shorts with like a boxer or a compression short. The the lined version. Felt more. Lightweight and breathable and like worry-free. And it was really interesting because I went in almost with a bias against line shorts and that like kind of turned around my my preference for sure. And it was it's definitely proven out. It's not like something that I after a couple times. That's what I'm speaking of. I'm speaking of like, 100s and hundreds of miles with these shorts and hundreds of hours in the gym and running. And
[00:57:18] Brigham: yeah, the so I would say Body type is going to, always something to consider, and I think everybody, you know, is aware of their body type. So I do sweat a lot. But what I found was, I really liked at the end of the day, being able to get into the tent and like, by the time, I set up my tent and had my meal and got ready for bed. Pretty much my shorts were dry, like, all the sweat was, was dry anyway, which meant that when I change into my sleeping clothes, that in the morning, I can just pull on the same pair of shorts and they're dry, they're not damp and nasty feeling and that's for me, that's just the preference that I that I developed over time and then I also like
[00:58:08] Brigham: I mentioned before I didn't like the idea of packing and extra pair of underwear for a trip. It just it's a really simple setup that I really liked just being old to just day after day. Just use the same pair of shorts, they're always dry in the morning when I put them on don't have to pack underwear and and then they work really well for for swim trunks. If I'm ever you know somewhere where I'm going to do that. Yeah I would I would second that
[00:58:37] Tayson: I'm I was all so like never used line shorts. You know, I bought some running shorts with liners because that seemed to be a very common thing and Some potential. But I think the biggest reason why I was never liked line shows shorts before, is I hadn't been able to build up my own confidence in them and their usability. And so over the course of developing these I've developed a tremendous amount of confidence in the liner itself. That being said before you, you know, run out and buy just the line versions. I I do use both and I'll explain that. But but yeah, in general, I prefer the lined ones both in terms of just overall Comfort freedom on the trail Mobility, Mobility. I love that when I'm traveling or using them for other things.
[00:59:29] Tayson: It's I don't have to worry about having a pair of boxers that are going to get sweaty from a workout in the morning. And then I have to, like deal with maybe trying to drive him out, or transport them because it's because like, yeah, my shirts are gonna get wet, but I've got a lot of confidence in their ability to dry quickly. It's just not two pieces now that I have to deal with it or wet or I don't have to make sure I have a pair of boxers. You know, four, four workout when I'm swimming, you know, same kind of thing. And so it's just one less hassle point and, and for the penalty of one ounce, right? So one ounce and basically no bulk. Like if you roll these up, like you're gonna,
