[00:00:00] Tayson: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Live Ultralight Podcast powered by Outdoor Vitals. Today I had a special guest. This is Aaron Owens Mayhew who is. This is a phenomenal podcast. They recovered a ton of really interesting aspects of eating and fueling on trail. I know I personally learned some things, which I hope means that you guys will learn some things as well. We talked about everything from easy ways to boost calories, easy ways to do some meal prepping before, how often you should be eating, eating and hiking in high elevation and cold weather and differences there. And I mean, we covered, we covered so much in this podcast that was so good. Easy ways to cook.
[00:00:41] Tayson: You know, like, I think that a lot of us, if you, if you may resonate with this, a lot of us out there, you know, we love backpacking, but maybe we don't love the prep work of it. Maybe you're not one who to spend a lot of time figuring out food such as me. In fact, I'm leaving this afternoon to take my kids on a backpacking trip and I've not figured out what I'm going to be eating. I literally have just gone in and sort of grabbing things off of the shelf. And I know that that experience could be so much better. And that's a lot of what we talk about in this episode. So I got a lot of good takeaways from it and I'm sure you will as well, but let me introduce you really quick to Aaron so that you know who she is and what she does.
[00:01:16] Tayson: And then we'll go ahead and roll this interview. So Aaron Owens Mayhew is a registered dietitian and avid backpacker who made a significant career shift in 2017 after setting out to hike the Pacific Crest Trail. Motivated by her journey, she recognized the need for specialized nutrition in a world of backpacking. This realization led her to establish Backcountry Foodie, a business focused on providing backpackers with nutrition, nutritious meal plans. Aaron definitely had some obstacles to overcome where she knew that most people going out on through hikes were planning on losing 10, 20, 30 pounds. And she felt like she did not have that weight to lose. And so she looked at nutrition a little bit differently and it spurred off this whole business now that she's running from resupply to this really awesome membership, which we get into in this episode.
[00:02:03] Tayson: So if you guys want to learn how to eat better or just how to eat period on the trail, um, make sure to listen to this episode. I'll go ahead and roll it right now. All right, Aaron, how are you doing today?
[00:02:13] Aaron: I'm good. Thanks.
[00:02:15] Tayson: Uh, you mentioned already off off air here, but, uh, you've got a pretty slick looking uniform on there.
[00:02:21] Aaron: This is my new uniform. This is my chef's coat. Um, like I was telling you before, actually, I just replaced my hair net with a ball cap. So, um, no, I started a resupply business with new hackers this season. So I've been really busy in the kitchen making meals. Um, so I've got a couple of orders going out to write wood and I would don't say this week, actually tomorrow.
[00:02:40] Tayson: Yeah. You, when we were just scheduling this up, it sounded like your schedule is insane right now. Um, like walk me through how many, how many people are you resupplying and how does that work?
[00:02:52] Aaron: Um, actually, I'm only resupplying 16 people. Um, so there's actually eight hikers considering how many thousands of hikers are out there. I'm helping 16 eight regularly order every single week. So the others kind of order sporadically based on if there's like absolutely nothing there, then I send the box. Others have, you know, one has celiac, one has another peanut allergy, you know, all those kinds of things. So they actually need boxes every single week. Um, and on a busy day, I'm making a hundred meals. So I underestimated how much work it's going to be. Um, so I'm actually hiring a business manager for the membership side of things so I can focus on this a hundred percent of the time because it's turning into something massive that I really enjoy doing, especially being a dietitian. I prefer to be in the kitchen than behind my computer.
[00:03:37] Aaron: Um, so it's something that's growing a lot faster than I thought it would.
[00:03:42] Tayson: Yeah, that's, that's actually super interesting. So you're saying you've got eight, like every week. And then let's say half of the other ones are ordering every week. So you're only, you're only making meals for 12 people, right? Per week, per week, let's say. So, and that's, I mean, how much time does that take to do that?
[00:04:00] Aaron: I thought it would be 15 hours a week, but it's closer to 40 because I didn't take into account the amount of my poor postal carrier. I didn't take into account all the shipments coming in. Um, you know, just opening up things, putting away inventory. Um, you know, breaking down boxes, all those kinds of things that didn't take into account. And then also my particular style of meal planning, I make everything freezer bags. So I do them all individually. I forgot dishes. I did take into account actually doing dishes. Um, so I've learned a lot of tricks throughout the way of kind of being more time efficient, but it's not just my meals. Essentially I'm doing everything that you would do for yourself. So I'm ordering bars and shipping puffy coats, you know, micro spikes back and forth. So anything that needs to go to the resupply box, and essentially it's a resupply coordination.
[00:04:46] Aaron: I do everything that you need. Um, so I've got quite a few international hikers that don't have one, someone here locally. So I'm getting a lot of gear back and forth and that kind of thing. So just as a lot more than I anticipated, but I love it. So. Excited to get away from the computer.
[00:05:04] Tayson: Are there people out there providing a service like this? Like is or is this? Are you like the one and only?
[00:05:09] Aaron: The one and only that I know about doing the full service, there are other food companies that do kind of pre-made resupply boxes. But the reason why I was interested in this is It's a pay-as-you-go. So if I can buy it you can have it. So like I was saying that, if you've got some kind of food, allergy of those kind of things I buy specifically for you, which is another reason why it takes time is every single box is unique. So, every hiker has their own unique order form that they can order separately. Whereas other companies, you order a single box, you may not like this rebars in it, but that's what you get kind of things and just the limited variety, but there's nobody else doing all the other shipping gear and that kind of thing.
[00:05:47] Tayson: yeah, I We're we're a little bit different because when you're talking about like membership site versus like in the kitchen, like my first thought was like, oh yeah, work on the membership site like I want to be the kids. Like talking about, like, all this coordination. And like, that is probably my biggest obstacle when it comes to. Just just trip trips. In general is like getting into the nitty-gritty of the details. I don't like getting into the nitty-gritty, I get Overwhelmed and timing of Supply. Like I don't even have a through hike on my radar right now that would need resupplies.
[00:06:26] Tayson: And that already is like that's I don't know if I can handle like resupply boxes and trying to time resupply like like that is to me like this logistical and detail Nightmare and, and that's like your wheelhouse and It's super fascinating because I think that there are a lot of things that I miss out on, because I'm not good at those details. Like, I'll get on trail and I'll be like, I hate this food and I packed it again. Like why did I do that? Or, you know, fill in the blank and actually, on a recent Live stream, we were doing with our with our 100 miles challenge group.
[00:07:01] Tayson: I had just mentioned that I bring about 3500 calories per day to eat because usually I don't want to eat any more calories than that even though I'm a 200 pound, six foot two guy like and I I could probably I'm sure I'm burning more than 3500, calories on Thursdays. Just like I just don't want to eat it and then and also the weight of my food gets too high and and you're like, oh, you could do better than that, you know,
[00:07:27] Aaron: specialty. This is what I'm good at.
[00:07:29] Tayson: Yeah. So I want to be the guinea pig here and I hope everyone else learns from this, but like what am I doing wrong? And how should I be approaching this to to get more calories in my bag and not be at a penalty of either taste or wait? Because that's the big thing is some of the things that I what happened is, I was packing, 4500 calories, and the like, last thousand calories, or whatever, actually, not even that it was just, I was packing things that were very high calorie per ounce. I get out on trail and back, I don't want to eat that like, yeah, it's nutritionally, it's good but it's, you know, I'm I'm 10 hours into this day of hiking and that just looks horrible, right? So then I dialed back, I'm like you know what, as long as I want to eat it, I'm more happy with what I bring.
[00:08:18] Tayson: And so then I I basically kept the same weight Of how much food I'm bringing on trail. And just reduce the amount of calories in in the name of taste and things that I'd want to eat. So, I personally take about, I was saying, average of like 1.7 pounds, 1.8 pounds of food per day. And usually, in about the 3500 Cal per ounce or 3,500 calories per day worth of food. So, so what am I, what am I doing wrong? What can I improve? What do I need to be looking at?
[00:08:49] Aaron: Well, there's two things I can talk about. So the first one is a super easy thing to do as I've been long distance hiking for a while now I hate bars, I just can't eat them anymore. So what I've done is made Mill replacement drinks, so it's a full meal and eight ounces of water and that's actually one of the things I'm making so much of that's actually what I'm doing in the kitchen right now is I made 25 different green smoothies, as you can get an entire meal with carbs, protein, fiber fat, everything in it and just I actually keep on my hip hop pocket now to where I pull it out. Add some water in, Shake It Up in the bag, you drink and I keep moving. So, if you've got nowhere, you just don't want to eat the food anymore.
[00:09:24] Aaron: Specially if you're at altitude, when I did the Colorado Trail, I lost my appetite completely for over 200 miles, and I love to eat. This is what I do for a living. So it was really kind of, as worrisome. I was like, wow, like I have zero interested food. So that's what I lived off of. I had one solid meal per day and the rest of all my meal replacement drinks and I never hit the wall. I didn't lose weight. I ended up dehydrated because I was sick, but it could have been so much worse had not done that. So that's one easy thing to do is kind of thinking about shakes.
[00:09:52] Tayson: Yeah. And they're all just powder. He added in a baggie and then you're done and a couple minutes to make them. So it was looking at that. Was looking at that on your website last night. In like the ultra running world, what I found on when I ran my first Ultra last year, was that the liquid calories? Did go down the easiest and best and they used this product called. I think it's called cluster dextrin. It's it's basically just a carbohydrate, that's super easy to digest but It. I don't think it's very good like calorie per pounds or anything like that and then when you said green drinks or is that just,
[00:10:27] Aaron: yeah, we're working on green smoothie right now for today.
[00:10:30] Tayson: Like greens typically aren't high calorie per ounce. So how are you? How are you working in that? Because I was looking on your website, I saw like a breakfast, what is it called? Breakfast Carnation or something. Yes. Chocolate, milk. That you were made or chocolate. Anyways, now that one like I could see like, okay, but when you talk about greens, like how are you getting calories into like greens?
[00:10:50] Aaron: Very well. So, this is where the next part is is I look at Backpackers like, you guys. So I look at a combination Foods is what I really focus on and what I mean by that is each gram of the food, has carbs, protein and fat and every single bite. So you're really maximizing the amount of food that's going in. So that's where I've developed what I call ultralight meal planning. I made it up and so but essentially that meal planning. So essentially what it is is by maximizing every single bite, you ultimately carry lower volume of food because it's more, calorically dense, you carry lower weight because it's clearly dense. But you're also getting your carbs and your protein, all you think for recovery and you know keeping your glycogen stores up all those things.
[00:11:32] Aaron: So that's where like you're saying your 3500 Cal, you might be doing high calorie dense foods but you may be missing out on the carbs in the protein, you need that kind of thing. So it's more than just calorically dense, things socially some of those are really oily and they just don't taste very good. So that's one of the things I really focus on too, is taking what I eat normally at home and turning that into backpacking food. Instead of going from eating normal food to now you're eating this food, you would never ever eat at home because you're like, well, popped. I know the traditional hyper foods are like, Pop, Tarts. You know, honey buns, that kind of stuff, so sure. They might be clerkley dense, but they're not going to do what they need to traditionally or nutritionally, rather.
[00:12:11] Tayson: Yeah. So
[00:12:13] Aaron: that's what I call is the combination Foods. So, something like, one of my examples is kind of like a typical hyper lunch, you know, tuna a tortilla cheese stick or something like that and making a wrap out of it. So your tuna is primarily your protein, there's no fat no carbs. So, now to get those you have to have the tortilla and then to get some fat, maybe you have some cheese or me a packet or that kind of thing. So, those you have to eat separately, but if you eat something like hummus, it has carbs protein and fat all together. So I actually did some math and I teach a child should let me play any class.
[00:12:45] Aaron: And if you were to do tuna for five days in a row, how much for five days in a row, you actually save the weight of a bear can just because it's so much lower volume because hummus has all These in it it's clearly dense and nutritionally dense that I was shocked by. Oh my gosh, like this really makes a big difference So that's where we're going back to my green smoothie, as I use just enough of the greens, the spinach, and the mint to give it flavor, but the majority of the calories are coming from the whole milk powder, she is seeds, which are carbs, protein and fat. I've got some bananas in there and some pineapple to kind of give it a punch but those are just enough to get flavor. They're not really where the nutrition is coming from. So that's how I'm able to do it.
[00:13:26] Tayson: Okay, so Two things when I have gone into, you know, these these hikes where we're doing 20 to 25 miles a day at altitude, one of the things that I start to Crave is mayonnaise like really that's usual. I yeah, so like and in the first time like I definitely was experiencing some elevation sickness. And so I like wasn't eating at all or very, I was like, almost nothing. I could eat it, got off the mountain. That only thing I wanted was like a Subway sandwich with like, extra Manny's on it. I don't know why. And then, and then so then I was like, okay, there's something too. So I started to bring Manny's package and like a wrap, like a tortilla Some kind of meat in it. Some cheese and mayonnaise is like heaven on Earth for me for some reason.
[00:14:15] Tayson: But I think I think what it kind of comes back to is is yeah, maybe what I'm experiencing is just this this last deficit of having anything with that in it or something. I don't know maybe or maybe I just need more calories period and my body knows. That's that's a great way to get calories. I'm not, I'm not totally sure but I crave it
[00:14:34] Aaron: Galleries. And that's where you're getting calories though.
[00:14:41] Tayson: Oh yeah, because I know it's weird. Like, I don't want sugar. It's like I don't want carbs and sugar the last trip that we did where I was really I had not done enough meal planning. And I just went down, I have like a ton of food in like bars essentially and and sugary stuff. I closed that I've been using for ultra running and training all summer and so I just started grabbing and going and when I got out on trail I was like I don't want any more gummies and I don't want another honey Stinger Waffle. And I don't want another bar but like some of these other things I was really craving. And so I think I think that speaks to what you're saying with trying to match what you eat at home. Like I'm not eating a bar or gummies all day long at home.
[00:15:24] Tayson: But you brought up another another food that I'm interested in. That's because I think there's things that people try to boost calories with, right? There's like all of oil that people just add to everything, right? Like that's like the defaults, right?
[00:15:37] Aaron: They're all. Yeah.
[00:15:40] Tayson: But Powdered milk. It seems like powdered, milk is kind of a staple and quite a few of your recipes. What's what's the benefit there? I mean, why should people be looking at that as a supplemental piece to their to their diet?
[00:15:55] Aaron: For my reason why I use it so much that it's like, my ultimate combination food, as you get carbs, protein fat actually did a lot of electrolytes, you just surprised how much sodium is in milk powder. You get some potassium in there, so it just has all those things in it and actually tastes good too. So you can use it a lot of things just to kind of, here's the dietitian. I mean getting like a creamy texture to things, or Using as a thickener so you can sneak it into things without having like you know significant change in the flavor so that's why I use it a lot and soy milk further. The vegan people you can do soy milk powder or almond milk powder too unfortunately.
[00:16:29] Aaron: They're not as blurry dense but they also give you the protein in those kind of things so that's an alternative but That's the reason why one of those combination foods that I love is.
[00:16:39] Tayson: There, certain milk powder, that's better than others and like do you buy a towards anything?
[00:16:43] Aaron: I just like the night owl or NATO, the Nestle, the big yellow. Can I just like the flavor of it? It's easy to obtain inexpensive. There's another brand. Is it Peak? I want to say I can't remember the other brand, there's another brand that might be organic that people really love but I go through so much of it, that is easy to run to the grocery store. Pick it up off the shelf and use it that way. But if you don't need the calories, you can use to not that milk powder and still again get the carbs protein, but you're just not going to get there. Hi calories is the whole milk powder.
[00:17:15] Tayson: Is there any other like types of food like this? They could be supplemented or added into things that that are just Super helpful like that.
[00:17:23] Aaron: I like to use nuts. I grind up again. What's my smoothies? I grind up much and my coffee grinder, and you never know they're in there. And again, you're getting carbs, protein and fat. So I usually use a tablespoon, maybe even a quarter cup of nuts and powder them. So let's another way of sneaking in to where you're not like having to chew on nuts because I love nuts at home but when I'm on trail I can't stand them so I don't know what it is about but I just can't eat them. So that's another way to add. I think I get
[00:17:51] Tayson: I get fatigued. With nuts. Like it's like I'll start eating them and it's good. Like I experienced this with trail mix where it was like, okay, A little bit of Trail Mix is awesome and it's still calculated calorically dense. That I'm gonna just double the amount of Trail Mix, and I got out on trail and I'm like, yeah, I was like actually shocked. I was like, I can't finish this trail mix today and then the next day came and I was like, I can't finish it again. Like, let's go on. I've never had a problem with that, but I get very fatigued of eating nuts, I think and especially, if I'm eating him like in one meal. So I think like with what you're saying like you're probably breaking that up into a lot of meals throughout the day too, right,
[00:18:28] Aaron: right. That's what's going to say? I use them in my smoothie but I also sneak them into oatmeal. I sneak them into couscous meals, I sneak them and I chop them up, super fine, so you don't actually really notice that they're in there, but they're giving you the nutrition. So I use them all over the place. I don't necessarily always use macadamia nuts even though the most clerkley dance, I use a ton of a ponds and almonds of walnuts. Again gives you flavor a little texture because everybody gets tired of couscous too and even though so easy you know hiker friendly. That's just another way to boost the meal by adding in a few nuts.
[00:18:59] Tayson: Yeah. So you've got oil, milk nuts, anything else to consider like that?
[00:19:04] Aaron: I love chia seeds. So those and not everybody likes the texture of them. So, I've actually started grinding those. My coffee grinder, gets so much use. I'm gonna have to get in and just throw one, because, right now, each drink, I have to do individually in my little coffee grinder. And it's not working, it's not efficient, but the volume that I'm making, but I'll grind those up, too. And it is almost as like a thickener for drinks or oatmeals and those things. So, if you don't like the gooeyness of the cheetah, then you can do that. You won't even know the right there. Okay.
[00:19:33] Tayson: Yeah, those are some really good options that I just
[00:19:37] Aaron: my other one. That's my other go to, as I never use white rice. Instant rice. I feel like, it's just like, Zero nutrition in it. And so, I'll use quinoa instead, because, again, a combination food, it has all the things in IT program food that you would have to have white rice to, you know, all these other things when you could have so much more and just a smaller amount and That's part of the ultralight meal planing too. Is you don't feel like you're eating. Its volumes all the time because it's so nutritionally dense. That's my black bean. Sorry, I hope you can't hear my dog, my black bean dip is only half a cup, a dip, but you'd have to eat. I did a comparison to the entire backpacker's, Pantry, China Masala, to get the same amount of nutrition does to what the black bean dip. Is that I do.
[00:20:22] Tayson: So with a lot of that, food processing and stuff you're doing at home, are you really like reducing the footprint of the amount of space and things like that, right? It sounds like you're you're really condensing everything down, by the processing, you're doing in the kitchen,
[00:20:35] Aaron: right? And I can easily get in five to seven days and to like the regular beer bag and one of the I forget what they call that it's a long ago but I can easily get that many days. Whereas if you're maybe doing what you're doing, how many days of food? Can you usually get like a beer bag?
[00:20:49] Tayson: Three four, maybe the most part I've I've avoided facts. Don't, I don't know. Probably, probably more like three would be my guess. Like, I definitely am not. Making a big conscious effort of like, compacting everything down because that's kind of like the thing was you're saying that I'm like, well, whatever, feel full, what I like, because. Yeah. So nutritionally said, yeah. Right. Like as Americans like a lot of things we eat is just to gain a sensation of getting full, right? Like a lot of the carbs, we have a lot to do with that, right? So I'd be almost a little concerned if I if all of my food could be this condensed. Like am I gonna feel hungry on the days or
[00:21:30] Aaron: you'd be surprised because that's so satiating that you're going to feel full. So any other part is slowed down. So if we actually slow down and took our time to eat and you're going to get full faster, you're going to feel more full. But I was gonna say about the beer, can actually one of my hikers. I did a test because I was making it, she's in the Sierra. She was she's out now, but she needs. She's like, Aaron. I've got to get seven days in my bare hand, like, help me out. So, I did a test here and sure enough. I was able to cram, I crammed it in, but I was able to get seven days worth of food and her beer can so she ended up. It worked out really well.
[00:22:02] Tayson: Yeah, that's super, super impressive. You mentioned that you make these smoothies, right? And that's a great way to get calories and whatnot. She said she put them in your hip pocket. What do you mean by that? Like how are you? How are you? Are you how are you mixing those? How are you? How are you doing that?
[00:22:20] Aaron: I use I actually use compostable baggies because I've used so many plastic bags that environmentally it bothers me, but my composable baggies are almost like the like a paper sack so they're rigid. So just put them in there. There's zipper topped and they're small enough to where they actually will fit in my hip belt pocket. So I just literally pull it out when I specially, if I'm getting ready to do a climb and I haven't it's not quite time for lunch. Or is 3:00 in the afternoon? It's really not time for dinner. That kind of thing is when I'll pop one, I guess you could say. Pull it out and I keep my water bottles on the outside of my pack. So then I just literally dump it in while I'm still walking, zip it up shake. Then I also keep a little smell proof.
[00:22:59] Aaron: The block baggie that I put my trash in my pocket, so then I just put it in there and I keep going.
[00:23:04] Tayson: How are you? How are you drinking out of Ziploc? Do you buy the hole in the corner? Or
[00:23:08] Aaron: just Drink it down up and funnel it in,
[00:23:11] Tayson: okay? Yeah, no that's that's super interesting. Also look for those, those baggies those sound pretty interesting too
[00:23:17] Aaron: well. And then ultralight Backpacker, I don't like carrying extra cups or water bottles and those things and I don't like doing dishes. So that's the other reason why I just drink right out of the baggie.
[00:23:25] Tayson: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well I mean, on that note, how many how much of the time are you cooking in like a pot that you'd have to wash after versus like for me? I I'm fairly Lucky in the sense that I eat a lot of like, for every meal that I'm cooking with my pot, I'm just heating up water, like, I'm just making a peak refuel meal or something like that. So when I see people that are like, actually cooking in their plot a lot, I'm like, I don't know how much I wanted to do that. So I'm curious how much of the time you say never never.
[00:23:58] Aaron: Again, I'm losing hiker, I don't like doing dishes. It's all freezer bag, cooking. And I've gotten where, I either know, cook or colds. Look a lot of things. So, I may use my pot, just eat up some water once a day, you know, for dinner time or if I really want something warm in the morning, but that's the other thing being a lazy hiker is I don't like to sit and boil things for 20 minutes, you know, and cook a pasta and that kind of thing that my meals are specifically designed just to need warm water. It doesn't have to be boiling, so warm it up a little bit starts to Bubble, put it in the baggie. Let it sit for five minutes again, I'm impatient when I'm hungry, I'm very typing personnel. This is actually a good thing when it comes to the work that I do. It actually translates.
[00:24:38] Aaron: Well, but when I'm hungry I want to eat. I don't want to sit around for 15-20 minutes wait for it but so so there's specifically designed to be ready in five minutes or less.
[00:24:47] Tayson: Okay. oh man, it's so funny because you kind of you You are like a late. You're saying I'm a lazy hiker and I don't want to be all this but then at the same time like you're investing hours in the kitchen. So like I'm like lazy in the kitchen.
[00:25:03] Aaron: That's why I do all the work for you. So that's gonna say it's very scientific. Like, I don't I everything goes into my I have software like professional grade nutrition software. So the recipe is actually go in the software and manipulate everything. Make sure the numbers do what I want and then I go to the kitchen. and I mean, I feel like to make it taste good in the kitchen, then I go back to my software, make sure the numbers work so it's not Something I'm just in the kitchen kind of dough mixing things up, it's very scientific, the way I'm doing it, so I have them designed to where they're all show the perfect car to protein ratio for recovery. So, all that's done for you. So sodium is in there for the right amount, all those things proteins in there, for an endurance athletes. So, I've done all that work for you.
[00:25:44] Aaron: You just have to put it in a bag and hit the road.
[00:25:47] Tayson: All right, so now I gotta ask. I feel like that's how a lot of meal companies started. Like so you're doing all of this individual like recipes and stuff like that was keeping you from just commercializing more of this
[00:26:04] Aaron: at zero interest in it, it won't be fun anymore. So I like continuing to come up with an idea. To my customers. So, if there's things like I really miss this, or this is what's happening in the economy right now. This is too expensive, you know, this kind of thing or you're too busy. So I really focus on grocery friendly recipes. They just go to the grocery, pick up things, but with my recent applied business, making 25 servings at a time, it's like the max. I just, don't enjoy doing anymore than that and enjoy helping individual, hikers versus, just the masses. And there's so much competition out there already that it's just, not something that sounds fun to me. Yeah, I
[00:26:43] Tayson: mean there is a lot of competition but there's not a lot of competition in certain ways. Like once you start back backing a lot, you get fatigued of of what is available, pretty fast, like which is why to me, I'm like, man, even if you just did small bats stuff, if you'd be pretty interesting, you know what I mean? Like, I'm just gonna go see what random meals. Aaron's made this week and pick up. Etsy or something like we're
[00:27:08] Aaron: talking about, maybe doing that, you can give me some feedback. I don't know if it'd be frustrating but if I make like 30 servings of this, but my hikers only order 15 that week then I can put the 15 on my website is like this is what's available this week. It may not be available next week that kind of thing. So, but I would be a fearful that people like, oh my gosh, I love this, but she hasn't made any more of it, so What's going on here? That's just, I'm kind of yeah, I'm visually like having an email list to like here's what's available like you know, log on, get it. Well it lasts kind of thing. I think that would be the most that I'd really be interested in making bulk kinds of things. Well
[00:27:43] Tayson: and and I think that big issue or hard part with that would be like, if I, like, if I'm gonna order food, like, I'm gonna want to order a handful of meals at one time so that I I don't know. So shipping's worthwhile or something like that. So I think my question to you would be like with their just be like one type of meal at a time on there because if there is, then that might be a little bit less attractive but maybe maybe we need to talk off are and maybe you just put them for our members and they can order him with that with their other stuff that they're ordering for us, you know, and kind of batch everything together and it's simple for you, right? But
[00:28:22] Aaron: I'm a visioning is that whatever I'm making that week because the hikers Soon as I make extras then they change their mind and then when something else because they're like I've already three of these. I want to do something else this week. So what I'm kind of envisioning is like I make it then whatever's left over then put that online. So it probably change every single week because what I'm making I'm offering 60 recipes that probably was a mistake because there's so much Variety in it but everybody is just cringing. It's just
[00:28:50] Tayson: cringy, but I love it. I love how creative you're being and it's such a unique offering. Like I wouldn't, I wouldn't say ever to change but it's, it's wild what you're doing. Like, I the goal of just be just don't don't burn yourself out, right? Because that's
[00:29:04] Aaron: why I'm wearing help. So, I'm actually, I'm actually right now, it's just a cottage food permit. So I'm actually applying for a commercial food license, so I can hire help and I'm going to be moving into a commercial kitchen, so I can increase the volume to help more hikers and that kind of thing. But that'll take it away from me. If I hire three food helpers, then they actually be making all the food and I can do all the coordination is what I really enjoy. So that way we would probably be able to Have a lot more extra leftovers kind of thing, just because other people are making the food for me.
[00:29:32] Tayson: Yeah, yeah. Let's we'll have to talk because if there's life to that like could be just kind of a cool little one-off way to do things and and, you know, make it a little bit easier for you. So you're not having to coordinate one off meals or you probably get sick of Iowa. I made 10 extra these and I'm gonna eat ten extra these.
[00:29:54] Aaron: Like I've never made so many smoothies in my life. I wasn't expecting that at all. It was like, I mean, I actually just counted up the volume and since March, the middle of March, I made 1100 meals myself. And we're only in June, so we're actually beginning at June. So I'm kind of curious to see how many meals I end up making better than the season.
[00:30:13] Tayson: That's yeah. So like like you've made so many smoothies. What is it about specifically a smoothie? Let's just kind of pick on that for just a second. It seems like that's a seems to be something that you kind of keep referencing going back. To seems like a great way to as you say, sneak in calories. Like is that kind of some of the lowest hanging fruit? You see, for people and opportunity to increase their their on trail nutrition and caloric intake is that?
[00:30:41] Aaron: That's why they're loving them because they're just like I can't eat another bar, you know, or I'm sick. Of my neck, you know, kind of a typical thing until you really get in the groups. And a lot of people will lose their appetite at the beginning. So it's an easy way. You're drinking water anyway, so why not throw some nutrition and it? So I've had to hikers. Specifically say Aaron like cancel my order just movies this week because I'm not feeling very good, but I know I'm going to hit the wall if I don't do something. So it's kind of where they order three per day. Just
[00:31:11] Tayson: Like your hikers are ordering are drinking three smoothies per day.
[00:31:14] Aaron: Yeah.
[00:31:15] Tayson: And are they still eating meals? Like are those just taking are those taking over like snacks or those taking over meals?
[00:31:22] Aaron: It depends on the hiker, some of them, that's taking over their lunch because they want to keep moving if they're pulling, like, you know, already 30 mile days, they're not wanting to stop for lunch, so they're using it as a lunch, others are ordering snacks anymore, they're using those instead and still ordering their solid food, I guess you could say for meals. So it's really depends on the hiker, what they're using them for. And the other thing for, what reason, why I was able to do this for my Sierra growl is that their powder. So in a bear, can they smush really well around things. So we did very little bars and those kind of things because they're not a space efficient as a powder is,
[00:31:55] Tayson: Yeah. You're you're having the water and volume I am on Trails. So it's a win-win. Yeah, that's super interesting, what? Okay, so what, what do you think about this? Like if I'm the kind of guy that like I'm I just don't have the time. You know, running a company have small kids at home Etc, like do the preparation. Do you think that there would be benefit to me just getting powdered milk ground up nuts? You know, things like that and just bringing them on trail and trying to sprinkle them in like, is that, I don't know, I'm just trying to apply this. I'm trying to think of how to apply this in a way that I know that I might actually do versus be like, that's an amazing idea and then just not not execute
[00:32:38] Aaron: well, one of the things I think about I'm not sure. What do you love? Do you have an off-season or do you hike you around?
[00:32:45] Tayson: I mean, I live in southern Utah so we can go to the desert like like literally 45 minutes from the office. I can be at 3,000 feet in the desert or I can be at 11,000 feet on a summit. So okay, I have a lot of options like close to home, right? And then from there, we just Take you where we're going to go. So so you usually though, I'm hiking at least some what year round.
[00:33:06] Aaron: Okay. So thank you. Well, we lived in the Pacific Northwest, there's that off season where it's raining all the time and it's miserable, or you can't get to the mountains is that I would prep volumes of stuff in the off season, then that way was already done. But again, the recipes being typed in is that they're designed to be super duper easy. I even have in the there's a filter for ingredients or less. So some of this smoothies, my favorite one that I've been drinking since 2016 as milk powder, peanut butter, powder, and Carnation is the breakfast. You can get them all the grocery store. If you wanted to, you don't have to do it individually, just dump. It. All in the gallon baggie and then you can just, you know, dish it out on the trail. So it's super easy and it's shell stable.
[00:33:44] Aaron: So just one day that you have a few extra minutes dump it all balanced size, baggy, put it in your backpacking been and then it's there for what you need it. You don't have to get all fancy like some of my, the green smoothie, it has quite a few ingredients. It takes some extra time to put all that together, but a lot of them I think you were looking at the chai breakfast one which is milk powder, vanilla Carnation breakfast, and some like cinnamon, and some other things coffee, instant coffee again, it's super easy. So we're in a baggie, its shell stable for a whole season.
[00:34:11] Tayson: Yeah. That's both of those actually sound really good,
[00:34:14] Aaron: they're really good.
[00:34:15] Tayson: It's lunch time here so. No that's that's super awesome. So one of the things that you do is you create master classes, where you take people through an educate, you alluded to one of them that I saw which is like ultra light meal planning. One of them that is going to be coming up. That looks like I don't think it's live yet. From what I could see is things to consider at altitude and cold weather. I'd love like, just a high level overview of of your thoughts on what starts to change when you go into high altitude or cold weather.
[00:34:48] Aaron: Well, also your basal metabolic rate—just to breathe—is 30% higher at altitude. So you haven't even done anything yet.
[00:35:02] Tayson: That's really interesting because like I I track my heart rate a lot and that's one of the ways that I try to, you know, take pulse on if I'm Having effects from high elevation my resting. Heart rate at night isn't getting low enough, that I know I'm at risk. Maybe I need to take it easier the next day or to try to hydrate earlier on in the day but it does make sense, right? My heart is beating at 70 beats per minute, instead of 44, like it does in my bed at home. So the 30% that's
[Editor’s note: This is Tayson’s personal monitoring practice, not a diagnostic rule. Resting heart rate alone cannot determine altitude illness or safe exertion; concerning or worsening symptoms require individual medical evaluation.]
[00:35:29] Aaron: as much as really 15 to 30%. So it's like if you want weight-loss plans, just go hang out at high altitude for you. Yeah, that's something that most people don't realize so they can continue to pack the same like summer time food. On your altitude. It tends to be colder, so you're carrying more, it just depends on where you are, but if it's colder, you're carrying more gear. You're, you know, maybe you're even snowshoes or doing those kind of things or carrying a nice sex, so you're actually heavier than you would be in the summer lower altitude. So, that's another increase energy expenditure cold weather wise. It being cold, doesn't really in the cold temperature doesn't necessarily really increase your energy needs but the Shivering you can burn up to 400 calories per hour just by shivering.
[Editor’s note: This is a joke, not a safe weight-loss strategy. Do not seek altitude exposure for weight loss; altitude illness can be serious.]
[00:36:17] Aaron: So if you're oscillating from being hot and cold, you know, you stop and you start shivering because you're sweaty and then you go back to normal temperature with all your clothes on your jacket and gloves and all those kind of things, just that oscillating, back and forth, actually, increases your energy needs again. If your pulse tolling, you're on snow, you're using ass back. That's all just increase energy that you don't normally do on a summer Trail when you're on dirt and you're just motoring, you know, that kind of thing. So and then two one of When you're a cold weather is eating protein at the end of the day because I'm gonna get nerdy. The thermic effect of food. Protein has the highest thermic effect. So one is being metabolized. It actually creases produces heat as a byproduct.
[00:36:56] Aaron: So I know a lot of people say, eat fat at the end of the day but because it's a slow burning fuel which it is, but it's thermic effects. The actual heat produced from metabolism is very, very low. So you can actually get a better benefit of eating some protein at the end of the day and it increases it. So if you can, at least get your sleep system, right? Then your body core temperatures up, and then you're going to stay warm. And that's the other thing too, is if you don't sleep, well, then you're not resting, you're not recovering. So that kind of sets you up for disaster the next day, too.
[Editor’s note: The altitude percentage, shivering-calorie estimate, and bedtime-protein claim in this historical discussion are not universal targets or guarantees. Food does not replace an adequate sleep system, current-condition judgment, or individualized nutrition guidance.]
[00:37:27] Tayson: Yeah, one of my favorite drinks that I've been able to purchase has been one from Skratch Labs. It's a horchata and it's it's like a milk base so it's got protein in there. They call it like a recovery drink and that's been one of my favorite end of the day. Things to mix up and drink but the last winter, we went up and just kind of for fun did a video about this. So we but it was more on the fat side, not the protein side because that's actually news to me that the protein off or puts off more heat. So I basically took a full stick of butter. Oh, I mean, some of it was really good. I put some butter in your instant brownies with like the Graham Cracker Barrel.
[00:38:12] Aaron: Those are good.
[00:38:12] Tayson: That's good. That's really good. And then I put it in like hot chocolate and it was phenomenal. Like I was actually I don't know why I've never done this, but that was like, the biggest takeaway I had was ever like whenever I make hot chocolate home, I'm like adding a little bit of milk and trying to make it creamy. Just add butter. That was the best creamy. Just quadrupled the Cal know. But yeah, I mean like butt but eating I think before bed and you know, mixing in more protein, I think does make a big difference because even like that night, it was just a, I slept great. I mean obviously you could overdo it but it was like, I think that's something to consider at altitude or in cold weather is just get calories in period.
[00:38:58] Aaron: Just like a peanut butter pack before you go to bed, you don't have to eat like a massive meal or anything, just a little bit of something.
[00:39:04] Tayson: Yeah, yeah no that's that's super interesting. It does masterclasses looked really, really cool though. So if anyone listening, this does want to go check those out. You have, I think five out already. Some of them are really specific to types of people and not but like that ultra light one, Ultra Lite, food planning looked really interesting
[00:39:24] Aaron: when they build upon each other for fairly new. Backpacker had the backpacking food 101, which is people that are wanting to transition from just like Mountain House, Backpackers Pantry, until like homemade food. Then the next one is my don't just eat well, so that's now. Okay, you figure that out. But you're running out of energy at the end of the day, like you're not recovering well, so that one's really focused on recovery and staying Fuel. And then the next one is for like more advanced hikers ultralight meal planning is like paying. Now, I figured this out now. I feel well, but now, how do I get my food weight less? So they really do. I wouldn't jump right into the ultralight meal planning one. If you're new hiker, because it is quite a bit more advanced and then the others, we have one for diabet. And for bariatric Backpackers and then the High Altitude one.
[00:40:04] Tayson: Okay. So how do how do people go about figuring out how much food they should be carrying to begin with? Like I know that, you know, there's all sorts of tech now that kind of enable that like my watch will give me an estimate of calories burned and, you know, and they say it's a pretty hard estimate. It's not, it's not signed like crazy scientific, but I'm just curious if there's any high-level rules that people should be paying attention to for how much food they should be considering, you know, based on their size or anything like that.
[00:40:38] Aaron: Well, I called backpacking, a complex work because what other sport are you wearing a backpack? You know what other sport are you out for 12 hours at a time? Sleeping poorly, you're not able to recover, you're not going home and having like a hot meal, you're carrying a lot of gear, you know, you're going up and down elevation. So the closest I did a lot of research and all this because I was like, okay, how do you this is back in 2016 when I panicked for my PCT attempt because I only ever hiked three days and I was like, oh like this isn't gonna work.
[00:41:04] Tayson: So you are running background too, right?
[00:41:07] Aaron: Yeah. It was an ultra runner back then and I was super skinny like I had a hard time keeping weight on. So like if I'm having a hard time running six to eight hours at a time, what am I gonna do hiking for 12 hours at a time? You know, that kind of thing. So that's when I panic. That's how Backcountry Foodie came about. But yeah. So what I really encourage people to do and I found this with my coaching clients is that people don't know how much they eat at home. So if you don't know how much you eat at home then you can't plan well for a backpacking trip. So I really encourage people just to sit down take a day. Everything you eat and drink put it.
[00:41:40] Aaron: I mean there's all those apps online that calorie calculator, things just get a feel for what you eat at a baseline then you know, at least to start there and then build upon because what I was Finding with my coaching clients is that they were eating less when they're hiking than I did at home. So they were hitting the wall all the time. So once we kind of figured out like okay you at least need this much. Let's ramp it up to this, then they started working a lot better. So then the next level I really recommend doing is keeping just a food journal for your backpacking trips. So keep one for like summer High people and for a winter hike, keep one for snowshoeing. And then that way you can refer back to it because we forgetful, we forget like, oh gosh, what did I pack last time? You know, that kind of thing.
[00:42:16] Aaron: Just a simple Journal of this is what I packed. This is what I ate. This is what I didn't eat that. I feel good was I tired and then you can use that for your next trip and making adjustments and actually I'm super excited. We just build a calorie calculator that I spent over a year building. Because again, I looked at all the research we combined like all the algorithms and calculations into one because what I was Treated as that, the calorie calculators online for hikers are inadequate because most of them don't take in your BMR. They only really tell you how many calories you're burning. While you're actively hiking, so people look like oh, it says 3500 calories. So the pack that, but your body needs at least 1500 to 1700 just to be still, you know, just to breathe and that kind of thing.
[00:42:57] Aaron: So that and then they don't take into account, like your backpack weight, elevation change the terrain, all those things. So ours, I want to say it probably has 15 different variables. It would take me a half an hour to do it by hand. I mean, it's pretty complex so I've been using that and comparing it to my height. So I've done it's pretty darn accurate. So right now it's behind the membership paywall but we are going to make it public soon. So once it is public, that'll be a good tool to be able to use. But until then just keeping food journals, just to kind of remember what worked and what didn't work. For different trips.
[00:43:33] Tayson: Yeah, I think that would be super super valuable and one of my least favorite lessons to learn in life is a lesson that I've already learned twice. And I've had I've done that, I mean I've done that absolutely with food on trail or it's like I knew better than this. I know I should have sent more time, you know, prepping or getting this at the store and You pay for it, it's not fun, right? So I think that's a really smart concept for sure.
[00:44:02] Aaron: That's a lot of you up front, but once you do that initial work, then you just repeat that over and over again because you learn like, A 10 mile day in the summer. This is what I feel good on, you know, 10 Mile day in the winter climbing elevation. This is what I feel. So once you kind of get those different scenarios and you just repeat that over and
[00:44:19] Tayson: over again. Yeah. What's your philosophy for the percentage of calories? You're trying to replace, right? So like You know, coming coming back again into, like, if you're doing an endurance sporting event, they might recommend that you are putting back in 50 percent of the calories, you're burning, and you let your body burn the other 50% of fats or metabolize, right? So Is there like a sweet spot that you're trying to aim for is it 100% replacement or is it like you know, if you can get up to 80 you're probably feeling good on trail.
[00:44:55] Aaron: I try to do it, I'd never thought about percentages, but I try to do 100% of what my body is actually needing because that way. And I think the big thing about backpacking too, is eating consistently throughout the day, is not really having like a huge breakfast and then not any snacks and having lunch, not easy snacks, you know, that kind of thing. So you're gonna have these energy highs and lows is that also that way, you're not feeling like, oh gosh, I had turkey dinner, you know? Now I'm miserable the, you're just eating small amounts of food all day long. So if you do, I know people like, oh, I've got plenty of, like, I'm overweight at 20% to, you know, maintain myself. But the problem with that is your glycogen stores are being depleted, which is your carb stores, especially at high altitude, as carbs are actually better.
[00:45:36] Aaron: Metabolized, they don't require as much oxygen as fat. So that's another reason thinking about how to do that. I didn't mention that is to be really carpet heavy when you're at altitude because it's already lower oxygen, you know, that kind of thing. So carbs actually work better at altitude, but I try to eat just regular as I can't. All what's going in is what I'm burning and that kind of thing.
[Editor’s note: Matching 100% of estimated expenditure and emphasizing carbohydrates at altitude are generalized historical statements, not individualized prescriptions. Energy and nutrient needs vary with the person, workload, health, acclimatization, and conditions.]
[00:45:55] Tayson: I like you can store like roughly 2000 calories and glycogen, right? And so, And maybe I'd love to know if you know this like if you're camping at altitude or out there on trail you're maybe not getting as quality of sleep. Is your body going to be able to replenish the 2000 calories, throughout the night, or you not getting fully reset. Like do you have any idea on that?
