[00:00:00] Tayson: Everybody welcome back to the live ultralight podcast powered by outdoor vitals. Today, we have a very special guest Mr. Michael McKnight also known as the low-carb Runner to discuss. Specifically diet, in big efforts. So, Michael is extremely well known for his running. He's extremely accomplished as an ultra Runner and Coach some of his achievements include placing first place at the kokoda. 250 the Moab 240 not once but twice Bigfoot, not once big foot 200, not once but twice he also run has rent has run. The Moab 240, the big foot 200 in the Tahoe, 200 in a single year, not once, but twice. So he's really the king, I guess of 200. I think that's all you might be known as but just an incredible athlete for distance, and he's really built all of this.
[00:00:59] Tayson: Record all he's broken, all these records, including course records utilizing this specific nutrition plan or Diet. So today, we talked about that. It's a low carb approach, not quite keto, but all of you guys and gals out there that love to eat keto, this is going to really help you for as far as looking at things to maybe do on the trail, that could help you to stay more in a fat burning mode. Michael doesn't necessarily call himself a keto Runner or a no carb Runner but more of a low carbon very strategic. So there's a lot to be learned from this. I know I learned a ton from this and it actually inspired me to look at this. Even from a longevity standpoint of swelling, inflammation recovery, just a lot of fantastic information in
[00:01:46] Tayson: here and a few tidbits of information that I found quite comical. So I really enjoyed this conversation. I'll go ahead and roll this right now and I hope you guys enjoy this conversation with the low carb Runner or another word, Michael McKnight. All right, Michael McKnight, super excited to have you on the podcast today. I wanted to start off with a question about what your morning looks like. Like what have you eaten so far? And what have you been doing so far?
[00:02:14] Mike: so every day is a little bit different but today, well, So basically, me and my wife just started summer here as it is everywhere, I guess. But we we started something where I live in Cache Valley, called run club and basically Monday through Friday from 8:30 to 9:00 kids ages. You know, I think our youngest is three year old. Who's my daughter actually from three year old to all the way up to 18 years old, come and run for 30 minutes and just see how far they can run throughout the whole summer. And me and my wife just kind of sit there and they have bracelets and we can scan their QR code and it keeps track at their mileage for the whole summer. And so with that little light, 30 minute commitment, every day
[00:02:58] Mike: like I've had to shift my routine just a little bit. And so I am getting up at about 5:30, so I got up at 5:30 today and I did a hour and a half run and the mountains soon as I got back, I typically like to get most of my nutrition from like real food. Historically that's been like eggs and beef liver, almost every morning after my run, but today, since I was on the go and I still want to prioritize getting some food, I essentially made like a A little bit of a smoothie concoction, I poured in some raw milk, some whey protein, some collagen, and then just a little bit of blueberries to get a little bit of carbohydrate in there and then took that with me to run club and that's how
[00:03:41] Mike: I got my my fuel for post-run. So that's all I've had today so far.
[00:03:45] Tayson: Yeah, that's a little bit different just because of how busy we are. Yeah. And from from some of the conversations I've heard, it's
[00:03:54] Mike: This
[00:03:54] Tayson: is kind of, and I guess we can dive right into this. But, like you, you do eat carbohydrates and, and your tag or kind of what you're known for is the low carb Runner. Not the low carb Runner, right? So like you do work those in super strategically and one of the questions, I see a lot of times and have experience with people that have come on, the trail with me has been kind of this concept of Like the, so fearful of coming out of like ketosis and and what not that, they're like even on trail where they're doing big like significantly more effort that day and burning significantly more calories. It's kind of like the plague still to touch much in a carbohydrate. So I'm curious what your thought is on that facet there.
[00:04:39] Mike: I mean, so yeah, you're right. I'm the low carb Runner, not the no carb Runner, like not even the keto Runner like, you know, I post a lot to my Instagram stories about the carbohydrates that I utilize and I still get people who are like, that's not keto and I just reply, like, well, yeah. Like I'm not keto, like I'm sure. I'm strategic keto, but I'm not full-time keto. Yeah.
[00:05:01] Tayson: So,
[00:05:01] Mike: but yeah, I get it. Like, when I first started I was like, I say, carb phobic, like people who do a low carb approach. I do think it's easy to get fearful of carbohydrates. You know, if somebody's like, eating this way to like lose weight slash maintain rate, then I sorry, maintain weight. I'm not in a past need judgment there, but I do feel like if people want to get the most out of the nutrition, then they're essentially just like kind of doing their bodies at this service by completely eliminating carbohydrates. My goal with everything was just to be just low enough that you know, for example, you know, I went from my run, first thing this morning at 5:30 in the morning and that was after not eating all night. Like I don't eat
[00:05:49] Mike: before I go from my run. And so, I found that like anywhere from 100 to 150 grams of carbohydrates. At least with my body a day when you factor in that short little fast from sleeping and then going into running the next morning every day, I'm always going in to some low grade level of ketosis. Um so every day my body is familiar with that but I don't believe you need to be in a full-time to be efficient at it. And so my goal is just to be able essentially like if you can utilize glucose and fat then I don't know why you would choose to not do that because they're both going to have benefits. Basically
[00:06:28] Tayson: yeah. yeah it seems like from what I understand, you're kind of eating maybe around 20% of your calories, come from carbohydrates that kind of a rule of thumb or and you're cycle them up a little bit and down from I think that's, I think that's really key. Why, why would you still eat a carbohydrate? Because with any cult like following which like the ketogenic diet has and, you know, like I have family members that have done it and it's so funny because they'll do it, they'll lose weight. They'll, you know, they'll kind of go through that cycle and then they'll come off of it and it's like this big Screen of the other side again. And and so I always, you know, I'm always trying to find the good. In things because obviously it's something
[00:07:11] Tayson: about it is working for people, right? But why like you said you're doing your body disservice if you're not eating carbs, I think that was what he's just said, but like, obviously you Believe that some carbs are necessary. So why what did those carbs do when you do consume them for you?
[00:07:29] Mike: Let's say two things. The first thing and you just kind of touched it, like people who follow strict, keto diets carnivore diets. It's very it's not common for somebody to be 100% true to it. It's very common for people to like maybe binge on the weekend or just like like you said come in and out of it and just almost swing completely to the other side. In my opinion, like, 100% of my carbohydrates are coming from raw milk, like there are sugars and milk, so you're getting carbohydrate their fruit, and then raw honey. And so, 100% of my carbohydrates come from that and I found that, especially with the fruit and the Honey like it's very sweet. And I do believe that the majority of people's metabolic issues comes from eating foods with added sugar.
[00:08:17] Mike: Once you rid yourself of that, I don't think that eating fruit and Honey's gonna mess up your metabolic Health. At least I've seen that with myself. I've used continuous monitors often. Just to make sure and like, after eating a big bowl of fruit. And honey, like I hardly see any Spike with my glucose. And so I do believe added sugars, the culprit, and so simply eating a little bit of fruit. Every day I found at least for me like it's taken away my cravings for like the ice cream and the candy, and the cookies, and all that stuff. People tend to eat when they're too strict. And so I do believe the flexibility is good because it helps you stick with it and then two from a performance standpoint. I always just like relate it
[00:08:59] Mike: to like a car. This Either equipped with knoths or not equipped with Nos and like I'm sure people
[00:09:08] Tayson: will not serious lovers. Yeah, they're
[00:09:10] Mike: Furious right there. It's like, you know, you have a generic car and yes, like, you know, when you look at what a car can do like a Dodge Charger or whatever. Like it has some speed, it has some pickup and so, I always say like that's like the huge reserve of fat that all of our bodies have, like you can do great things off of your fat, but once you add in carbohydrates, it's essentially adding in a canister of Nos and like no one can debate. Like once you hit that button your car is going to go a lot faster for a short amount of time and so I believe that that's what carbohydrates are. It's like you have your Baseline of fat burning you intake, some strategic carbohydrates that helps you hike fast or
[00:09:47] Mike: run faster or whatever for a short period of time. And then since you're dipping in and out of ketosis daily, your body's not gonna have a hard time just going right back until like that, steady state of fat burning, Gotcha. Yeah,
[00:10:01] Tayson: that makes it makes a lot of sense. And do you have you noticed that by by doing that that your body adapts to burning fat like quicker? Like, is that do you feel like there's a huge learn behavior of your body to be able to? A switch to burning facts. Like all of our bodies have the ability to burn fat, right? But it sounds like you kind of look at it almost like a muscle that can be trained.
[00:10:25] Mike: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, just like with any muscles, Like, well, maybe that's the back example, but like when I did start, I did a shirt keto diet for probably like six to eight months. I do think it's important. Like, especially if you've like had a high carbohydrate diet, your whole life like, you know, for me, I ate a lot of pasta. I ate a lot of takeout food, I add like a bowl of ice cream every day Mountain Dew every day and so I was like hardly ever tapping into my fast storage and so for me like, yeah, my body wasn't used to it and so I had like a longer adoption period than a lot of people. But after that six to eight months of my body like got super familiar with burning
[00:11:06] Mike: fat consistently, that's when I started adding in more strategic carbohydrates. And you know, for me, I don't test my ketones because I feel like if you get to caught up in that, that it can cause a lot of like worried people over analytical on those ketones. And so for me, like the only marker that I used to measure my ability to burn fat right now, it's just how I'm able to sustain a fast. And so I do Implement strategic, intermittent fasting. We're all fast 18 to 24 hours, sometimes a couple times a week, and I believe that if I can do that without having like, severe hunger pains, then that's still a pretty good indicator that my body knows how to burn fat for fuel because if you don't you're gonna have like the brain
[00:11:53] Mike: fog, you're gonna feel weak and tired. Like it's hard to fast if you're not a fat adapted person.
[00:12:00] Tayson: Yeah. You're, you're fasting more than once a week.
[00:12:05] Mike: Yeah. I mean like I take Sundays off from running and so like I'm usually doing at least in 18 hour fast on those days and then I do have at least another day during the week where I do lighter mileage slower mileage and I'll do like a 16 or an 18 hour fast on that day.
[00:12:21] Tayson: yeah, and that's That's pretty wild. I mean it sounds like you've worked your way into that so that it is sustainable for you. Coming from maybe another perspective. It's like, man, that's crazy. That's a lot. Like I actually tried to fast once a once a week at the first part of this year, and You know. Me and you can relate. I was also a very big kid, like I grew up overweight. I like all through school. Like, my goal is, to be able to run a mile without having to stop. Like they'd ever always make you run a mile and Jim like one to semester, you know? And I mean it was very difficult for me to do without just getting like side side side, ache can have to stop and I just, I mean,
[00:13:03] Tayson: I was the opposite of a runner, right? And so, I kind of share that with, with your background in origin story as well. And now I've lost my train of thought here, but like I guess what? What I Have a relationship with food that can be challenging, where it's like, man, I can, I can binge right and I can eat. And so I think that idea of kind of Probably working your way into stuff, is to be a little bit more sustainable. Because I again, I, I was struggling because when I did the fast once a week, I'd come off of that really hungry and then I would typically throughout the week, I'd kind of make up for it and probably a bit of a scarcity mindset of eating if that makes sense.
[00:13:44] Mike: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:13:45] Tayson: So maybe what I was doing wrong is I wasn't just, I wasn't you know, doing a more like with those fast doing a little bit more of a fat you know fat proteins approach. You think that could have been part of it.
[00:13:59] Mike: If you weren't doing that then I do think that was a part of it. Yeah, I mean,
[00:14:03] Tayson: okay.
[00:14:04] Mike: You get more satiated off of fat and protein versus carbohydrates. And so if that's like the majority of what your diet is and, you know, your body's gonna have more fuel to burn essentially when you have to do those fast.
[00:14:18] Tayson: Yeah. The guy who edits this podcast would kill me. If I didn't ask this, he struggles with like when he starts running and he starts increasing his miles, he gets really hungry and he starts gaining weight and that's how he puts it like he starts. He starts eating, you know, because doesn't make sense, right? He's burning more calories but somehow he gains weight and he gets really frustrated with that. What like, have you ever seen that before? Do you have any thoughts on? And he's done things. He's done like zero carbs before, you know, he's kind of cycled on and off a few diets similar to that, but right now, he's eating like a common standard. Standard diet, you know, and he's just finding that. He's, he's getting really hungry and obviously, then it's correlating
[00:15:07] Tayson: him gaining a few pounds even though he's running more miles than he ever has.
[00:15:11] Mike: So, like the times that he's done, zero carb. still have issues with gaining weight, even when he ramps up his mileage,
[00:15:20] Tayson: Um, I think the problem is when he starts ramping up his mileage he starts to feel too low energy. So that's been part of when he's switched. But I think you know, if I'm reading between the lines it might be possibly that he's still doing like full ketosis instead of like, we kind of, we teased him a lot because he'd come on our trips and like an overnight trip. And he'd bring like a big old salami. Like that was, that was the only thing you brought to eat, right? Like, maybe that's in a salon and like zero carbs, you know, So maybe he'll read between the lines. Maybe that's the issue, is that he's He's he's, you know, it's all or nothing with the carbs.
[00:15:59] Mike: Yeah. I mean it's hard to say without knowing is exactly what he's doing every day, but I mean if he's doing a standard American diet, that makes sense to me because I mean it's Ultra process like your body's gonna like burn through that, you're going to have a huge glucose Spike and crash and then just like keep eating because it's only a couple hours after eating a high carb meal that you're going to want to start eating a lot again. So I would guess that he's just getting into too many calories from just having so many crashes. And then You know what I'm saying? Like yeah, higher carb. You eat. The more you're gonna eat throughout the day because you have stronger hunger cues versus somebody who's fat adapted. Like I mean essentially turns into
[00:16:38] Mike: an issue where you're not getting enough calories because you're just always full because you're just always burning fat. And so, I would guess that he's either just eating too much from light burning carbohydrates. Too fast that or like, when he's doing the zero carb approach, I mean, because it is possible. To gain weight if you're not getting enough calories because your body's gonna start storing that as fat because you're not eating enough. And so yeah, I mean it's such a hard balance to figure out like you can't eat too much. You can't eat too little like but I would guess is either eating too many carbs and he's just continually eating or he's not getting enough calories in his body is storing the food as fat
[00:17:21] Tayson: versus Burning it. Yeah. I mean that sounds like it can be a bit of a fine line and saw recently, you won the Coconut, 250 graduations on that. Thank you. That's, that's way cool achievement. And I mean, and obviously you're you're so well achieved. In these long runs, I'm curious for something like the coconut 250, how do you balance, what you eat? And what what is it that you're eating out there, right? Like, do you go significantly more carbs and efforts like that? Or do you stick to like the 30%, you know, 20 to 30% rule? Just really interested kind of what that looks like when it's obviously that's a very long after, right? It's not like around 60 hours or longer is
[00:18:10] Mike: cocoa. Donuts, me 69 hours, so almost three days.
[00:18:13] Tayson: Yeah, hours. So yeah, I'd love to hear kind of how that balance works with, with diet and an effort like that.
[00:18:21] Mike: Yes, I believe that the longer the distance, the more you can get away with doing less carbohydrates. Just because like you're going at such a lower effort, I mean, scientifically the higher, your heart rate is the more glucose you're going to need, because the more glucose your burning, whereas the lower, your heart rate. Like even if you're not following a low carb diet, like that lower heart rate is gonna send you into some level of fat burning. And so I don't do as many carbohydrates for these longer multi-day efforts. But that being said, I do get the majority of my carbohydrates on that first day because I do like, at least in my own experience and from the like experience, a lot of the people like coach have had that first day your stomach. It
[00:19:14] Mike: can struggle trying to get used to like everything that's going on. Like, you know, exerting yourself and then on top of that, trying to digest food every hour. And so I found that for me that if I just do simple carbohydrates for the first like 12 to 16 hours in the form of gels, in the form of fruit, it helps my stomach adapt to what's going on. And then after that 12 to 16 hours, I'll start doing more fats. More proteins, more real food, you know, I'll have bunless Burgers. I've had my wife take me at the stake and then over race before I've done chicken wings before. So like as the race goes on I do a lot more real food. A lot of times I'll bring my own food just because like I'm
[00:20:03] Mike: trying to do everything I can to help me get to the Finish Line as quickly and as a patiently as possible and like a lot of these races when they're cooking food on the grill or whatever they're using, Seed oils which I don't touch because of the inflammatory response. And so I'll bring my own food, or I'll bring my butter and have my crew. Tell the Aid Station to cook my food, and butter, and not and any other kind of oil. Um, but yeah, a coconut. I did a lot of raw milk just because I was having stomach issues in the form of Real Food, anytime like an actual Piece of food. Touched my tongue. I'd start gagging and I'd have a hard time swallowing it. Which has happened to me before, sometimes it erased.
[00:20:45] Mike: And at that point, I have to switch to liquid calories and, you know, I grew up on a dairy farm. So I'm used to drinking raw milk and drinking a lot of raw milk. So I had no issues just like, you know, I'd come into Aid stations at chug, a bunch of milk and then take off kind of a thing. So, oh yeah. That's in proteins are what I end up shifting my focus to after about 16 hours of running in these these races.
[00:21:09] Tayson: Yeah, I mean do you think on that day one too? Like you're you're the most fresh so you're probably going the fastest as well. You're probably burning a little bit more carbohydrates that day anyways cuz you're you're maybe I don't know. Just the thought there I imagine it's hard to hold back on, you know, you know, it's a long race, right? But it's still like got to be hard to hold back because you got guys that are just gonna take off, right?
[00:21:33] Mike: Yeah. It's really hard, but I mean, when I first started like I would get caught up in the hype and go out too hard and then blow up and have to walk a lot, but, you know, cocoa donut and ended up being. I think it was my tents 200 so I I I'm used to people taking off too fast and I'm comfortable just kind of hanging back and knowing that if I hold back, I'll be able to make up a lot more time on day, two.
[00:22:04] Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you've got an incredible track record of these, these big long, distance races, right. And I mean, do you still hold? I think you held the even the course record. I'm like, the Moab 240, right?
[00:22:18] Mike: Yeah. In a weird way. So that year, they had to reroute the course for snow and so I did get the course record but that was for the snow route, okay? I do believe that I still have like the overall, like Record for fastest time that anybody's ran the Malibu 40, but that's not on the original course. So there are two, course records right now for that race.
[00:22:46] Tayson: Gotcha. Still just an absolutely incredible record for these long-distance efforts. And one of the questions, I think that does just come up. The most is, like, again, we do have. So we put on an event called The 100-mile Challenge. So we have 100s of people, that sign up to kind of do this DIY challenge with us this summer, where They'll either do 100, mile hike in one shot, or they can sign up to kind of do it stacked, but a lot of them that are coming from kind of a keto background. There. I think they're just searching for what they can take on trail. That might be you know not too bulky. Not too difficult to take on trail. So I guess in that sense and from your your background, you know, are there things
[00:23:33] Tayson: that they could take on trail that are going to be high protein high fat. You know, you're kind of a lot of times I would imagine for you like you're running a lot of aid station to aid station but or else just running with no calories which you've also done a lot of. But is there is, do you have any ideas of just quick, hit list of things that that could work for snacks or meals in a scenario like this? Where they're what you know many of our people are trying to hike about 20 miles a day back to back to back for about five days.
[00:24:03] Mike: Yes. I mean from a meal standpoint there's a lot of good, dehydrated Mills out. There like that are keto and low carb. Don't utilize seed oils. I forgot the name of them. I can look them up and send them to you later if you want. But I already hydrated meals, you can utilize. But from a snacking perspective, like, you know, I've done a lot of my efforts where I'm out multiple hours on my own. Like there is an event that I did not an event, but there was a trail you're in Utah, right?
[00:24:31] Tayson: Yeah, we're in Cedar City down here in Utah, but I'll actually be heading up this weekend to hike in Cache Valley. Should I just coordinated and done this with you in person Jesus?
[00:24:41] Mike: Yeah,
[00:24:41] Tayson: I'm here this weekend, too.
[00:24:44] Mike: You have to tell me where you're going.
[00:24:46] Tayson: We're Bringing our designers from Cache Valley and he put together a route but it's just or just going up on top to a few Lakes as a white pine lake. So yeah. You're gonna have snow there's still snow
[00:25:00] Mike: up there.
[00:25:00] Tayson: Yeah. He had us order, some micro spikes and if you think he's like, we might still be going through. Dang, that's
[00:25:07] Mike: yeah, I think a week ago, there's still about 30 inches up there 30 inches now. I mean, I'm sure it's down to maybe 15 or so now but yeah there's a good amount up there. Still
[00:25:17] Tayson: good to know, good to know. Yeah.
[00:25:22] Mike: But anyways, so I I did the youth or sorry, the unto her. I forget what it's called. The it's like an 86 mile route to the uintas.
[00:25:33] Tayson: Highline.
[00:25:34] Mike: Yeah. Yeah you went to Highline route. I did the whole route a couple years ago and you know, there's no age stations for that. So I had to carry all my ride for that and I'd say like the three things I utilized were macadamia nuts. Is because they're pretty light like crazy
[00:25:52] Tayson: calorie per ounce, right? Yeah,
[00:25:54] Mike: yeah. They're super fat fatty. Yeah. So macadamia nuts and then beef sticks, you know, like I buy a lot of those epic like innocent bars and turkey bars or whatever. And then the other thing I don't know about you've heard of this but have you heard of Keto brick?
[00:26:13] Tayson: No, no.
[00:26:14] Mike: I mean they're expensive but I mean, they're essentially a military placement that they like these. Like they look like gold bricks. They're super thick. Oh geez. Whenever you have time but like yeah, I'd say one brick probably weighs like A pound maybe but like there's a thousand calories. They're just 96 grams of fat. And then there's 36 grams of protein and then I believe there's like 500 to 1000 milligrams of sodium, so you got your mouth so you got your calories, you got your electrolytes and the only weighs about a pound. So I think those are awesome for mid-race fueling if you have to carry some calories,
[00:26:59] Tayson: I think the biggest question I have with those, are they edible?
[00:27:02] Mike: Oh, they're so good.
[00:27:04] Tayson: Okay,
[00:27:06] Mike: I mean, my kid. He's six years old, and like a lot of nights when he was ready for dessert. He'll ask for a keto brick, like I think they're pretty tasty. Yeah, they got better. They got, they actually just came out. Do you know who Mark Bell is? The bodybuilder.
[00:27:23] Tayson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:27:25] Mike: so, he has his Shake Steak I believe is what it's called, which has like some liver spleen and heart like powder in it. And so that keto brick just came out with. Like it's like a chocolate brownie, keto, but also has some liver and it's basically used the utilizing that shakes. Shake shake. Shake that Mark this created. Interesting. Yeah I'm gonna have to
[00:27:48] Tayson: I mean I just pulled him up so I'm gonna have to do a little more digging and I'll let you know if the taste test or not. That would be. I mean that sounds super helpful, right? I mean, when you're, when you're out there on these efforts, Yeah, any other quick Hits come to mind those. Those three are awesome.
[00:28:11] Mike: I mean granola like there's a National Grocers, there's a grain-free granola, the all utilize sometimes that has like a little bit of Honey to sweeten it but they got like pumpkin seeds in it. Cashews in it like a bunch of different nuts bound together with a little bit of honey and those are calorically dense. Protein bars. Like I mean, I do a lot of light protein style, type bars and jerky and nuts. Basically,
[00:28:39] Tayson: yeah, or mostly what I utilize, So all right, I gotta take this in a different direction here for just a second. So the guy that took second at cocoa donut Josh Perry, right? So I had him on the podcast, he after he set the fkt on the Pacific Coast Trail, I brought him on. Talked to him, he blew my mind, right? Because he's He's walking like 20 hours a day. Typically, and then, but his diet blue, my mind. He was eating about 12,000 calories a day during what this PCP? Yes. Yeah. And It's like 3,000. This is how he breaks it up, okay? There's about 3,000 calories of like nuts and and stuff like that, which I like totally expected. And he's like, I ate about 3,000 calories of, like, any kind of bars. Just
[00:29:32] Tayson: think. Like, cereal bars granola bars, any kind of bars, right? And then he eats 3,000 calories of gummies, any kind of gummies fruit snacks. Gummy bears. Yes yes. Oh and to top it off, 3,000 calories of various assortments of M&M's.
[00:29:53] Mike: What is
[00:29:53] Tayson: that is? That's his diet. And I mean, crushed the fkt for the Pacific. Crest Trail on
[00:30:00] Mike: that diet, okay, so he's getting 6,000 calories from gummies, and the ends.
[00:30:05] Tayson: Yeah, wow. It's my job like hit the table and when I was talking to him about this, I was like, like I was thinking like, you know, cuz I I think I'm like a bit of a strategic thinker and I just I'm thinking like he's got nutrition. Dialed and all this and he's just like, nope. He's like I get enough protein in to like help with muscles and stuff. And then like, from there, it's just calories, like, that's all he cares about is just calories and, but just, it was insane. And so I actually read a post on his Instagram after the kokoda and it just kind of was like, yeah, I had a little bit of stomach issue, but then kind of my, my through hiking gut and legs like set in. And I
[00:30:45] Tayson: was good to go, like he's went back to like so I'm sure when he was racing you like, that's what he's doing right now.
[00:30:51] Mike: Holy cow, so he doesn't do so real food.
[00:30:56] Tayson: I mean, like, if he's going through a town or something, yeah, like, he has to stop. He has to charge stuff because he has to, he has to track it, right, and he's doing an unsupported, not a supported model, so like he's getting food when he is stopping it places. But no, he's not stopping at all for meals. Like he's nonstop never stopping. I mean and that's that also blew me away too. Cuz I'm like so how much are you? Like jogging and running. He's like, I don't run anything like I don't Zero running and I'm like, what the heck? But then I kind of made sense because he's doing this you know, tortoise through their hair approach where it's like he just never stops. The only thing he tracks, Is like break time so
[00:31:35] Tayson: like he'll like time how much time it takes them to go to the bathroom because you know what I mean? Because like that because otherwise he'd be tracking like 20 hours a day of like movement time versus like 20 minutes a day of like stop time. Like he's just doesn't stop. That's wild. He did tell me that when I passed
[00:31:51] Mike: them that like when I passed the milk cocoa and he started running with me a little bit. He's like this is the first time I ran this whole race. I was like, wow, you're way up here? That's that's true. Yeah, he's cool. I like him.
[00:32:05] Tayson: He's a funny guy, man. I like to do so. What would be the benefits, right? So like you've got polarizing diets here. You've got Josh Perry diet and you've got Michael McKnight died here. Why do one or the other?
[00:32:23] Mike: I mean you just gotta do it works for your body like, you know, I I don't believe there's one style of nutrition. That's right, for everybody. I mean, I have said multiple times though that like If I ever get to a point where I stopped performing well these races and I wonder if it's light nutrition related I'm gonna have a really hard time deciding what to do because like just from a health standpoint, I feel so good eating this way, I've never felt better. I've never felt healthier and so like, you know, I'd have a hard time shifting my diet to run better. I'm guessing that's never gonna happen. But I mean, yeah, I just feel so good eating this way. But yeah, I mean, from a racing standpoint like you know, there's vegans that
[00:33:09] Mike: are thriving in the ultra running world. I don't know if you knew, do you know who Andrew glaze is? Yeah. Yeah, do you know that his light 100? So, Andrew glaze, he's a runner based out of California and he follows a vegan diet and like he's been running 100 plus mile weeks for I want to say like 180 weeks. Like he's approaching 200 weeks. Yeah, he races a tan like he did, he did 100k. Soca Donuts starts on a Monday. Three days before on a Friday he did a race in California that was 100K. He finished Sunday morning drove to cocodona and then he ran cocodona. And so, like he is just like, putting in these huge mileage like all the time and he's following a vegan diet. And one of the biggest like, criticisms
[00:34:06] Mike: of a vegan diet is just the like you're not getting enough to like bioavailable protein that your body's just gonna break down because you're not getting enough nutrients from a vegan diet. But he's out there proving everybody wrong. Like, you know, that takes a lot to run that many miles a week that consistently for that long. So you know, I certainly just believe that like everybody's body thrives differently and Josh thrives off of gummies and Eminem and I drive off of raw milk. Like there's nothing wrong with that.
[00:34:40] Tayson: Both are just as surprising. Just saying, I can't imagine drinking milk and then just running, you know. Like pretty sure that's like like challenge material for Instagram and tiktok Know that's super interesting. As long as you can trust this guy right after the liver King. I don't know what you can trust them anymore. So gosh. Yeah. But that does bring up a really cool point though. About what you're doing is and doing some of this research, I didn't realize this but someone that I'm I've been very enamored with recently has been Jeff Browning All right, and he follows your your diet as well, or close to it or his variation of it, right.
[00:35:18] Mike: I would say, I follow his diet. He's the one that got me on to it.
[00:35:22] Tayson: Yeah. Like I I listened to a podcast around Hard Rock, 100, time frame last year. And again, I've I ran my first Ultra last year kind of got interested in any of this, not very long ago. Right. So I'm I'm really new anyways. So I was listening to this and it just it's mind-blowing, the longevity, he has, and for me, that's a huge priority for myself. As I, I decided in my early 20s, like all the things that I love doing are heavily related to my health, my ability to stay healthy and be able to do them right. Like whether it's hiking, whether it's running, whether it's riding bikes or dirt bikes or if you know, just fill in the blank like everything I love to do or hunting, you know, like it's So related
[00:36:08] Tayson: to my physical ability to do those. And so, this long, this concept of longevity is, is really interesting and obviously he's out there crushing 100 milers at 50, something years old, which is insane. And one of the things he talks about a lot is like his, his recovery period from from doing this kind of a diet. So, I'd love to hear what your experience is recovering after some of these and, and how that's changed with with this type of an approach.
[00:36:35] Mike: Oh yeah. It's a night and day difference. Like I mean, The example, I always give people when it comes to, this is, you know, in 2017 and 2019. I did what's called the Triple Crown of 200 for those listening who don't know what that is. Basically, there's the Bigfoot 200 in August, the Tahoe, 200 in September, and then the Moab 240, and October, and the Triple Crown is doing those three 200s in the same calendar year. So, you're essentially doing three 200s in the span of 60 days. And in 2017 my first time doing it, that's actually four months. Before I started, the Triple Crown is when I started my Low carb Journey or whatever you want to call it, but I I had to hang kind of this carrot in front of me for
[00:37:30] Mike: those three races that year where like I reached a certain point in all three races where I was just like ready to quit. But then I and I know a lot of people will think this is not healthy. To have to do this, but I essentially had to like bribe myself. Like, if I finish this race, then I can spend the next three days eating like junk. And so I use that I got that I use that as motivation to get to the finish. And then I'd spend three days like I needed. I need to find the picture and send it to you. But I remember after my first 200, I went and I got like I went to five different fast food, chains to pick up like different little pieces of food that I
[00:38:08] Mike: liked. Like I went to KFC and I got a bucket of fried chicken. I went to A&W and got like a basket of deep fried cheese. Curds I want somewhere else I think maybe Red Robin to get some onion rings. Like like it was a big like deep fried meal that I had and like I did that after all those races, but between those races like I couldn't run once because I was so inflamed, my legs just swelled up and ballooned up my joints hurt. Like, I was basically just trying to survive between those races. And then like a few days before the race, I was just like holy cow. I hope my body figures out how to just get through this because I don't know how I'm gonna do another 200 miles and I
[00:38:51] Mike: had it been issues and all the races I developed a stress fracture at the Moab 240, like it was a train wreck but I still finished all three races. I somehow still got the overall like combined Triple Crown of 200 record that year. I don't know how but You know, after that, I was like, okay, like all these things went wrong, I'm gonna come back in 2019 and try and do try and do better. And in those two years like I did a lot more studying of my Approach my nutritional approach. And I realized that like, I did it completely backwards because from what I read after the race is, those are the times that you want to be the strictest with your food choices. Because obviously, like the breading the seed oils, like all
[00:39:35] Mike: that stuff is what caused my body to balloon Up and Slow Down recovery. So, in 2019, I essentially did like a carnivore diet, the first three days, three or four days after those 200s. And, like, you know, within five days, I was running again. I had no swelling. I had no inflammation. I had no issues. I ended up winning all three of those two hundreds that year and set some kind, of course, record on each course that year. And then, I ended up beating my Triple Crown to 200th Time by it was like 44 or 45 hours like it was a Monumental difference. And the biggest thing that I did differently was like I was very clean with my nutrition between those races and so that was kind of like a really eye-opening moment for
[00:40:22] Mike: me. And that's I would say was the pivoting point for me, where like I stopped, like Like, I do believe in the 80/20 rule, like I, I coach people with this nutritional approach and I'm just like, hey, you know, if you need to allow yourself, 20% flexibility, each week to have a little bit of stuff, that's not the best then do that. But for me, I don't do that anymore. Just because I like just saw how. Better? I recovered the stricter. I was so you know, for me, I now just view food as like Not something to be enjoyed even though I do love eating this way. Like for me it's just like I look at it as just part of my training. Like you know, I want to eat this way. So I recover
[00:41:05] Mike: faster to get ready for my next race but Yeah, that's the biggest benefit. I've seen with this approach is just like how much how low the inflammation is and then how much quicker you recover after a big effort. That inflammation helps like,
[00:41:22] Tayson: I'd imagine that it all so helps inflammation stay load during the efforts, right? So like a lot of our listeners that are going out. If they're doing a five or a seven-day for a lot of times, which you'll see, is they start to develop an issue. Day two day, three day four you know, and then it just kind of they have to deal with that there in past and I'm kind of guilty that too. I did a 20-mile run on Friday and I felt pretty Ginger like my knees felt a little swollen and ginger kind of over the weekend and You know, I so I guess, I guess, my curiosity is like, does this also help in the moment from from developing injuries in the field on these massive efforts?
[00:42:05] Mike: Oh yeah, at least in my experience, I remember there is a big effort. I was doing and I was just really craving some chicken wings and so I have my wife, go pick some up and typically, I get chicken wings from Buffalo Wild Wings because they actually deep fry. Their their wings in beef shortening and said of seed oil. And so, but in this effort she just went to some random story and got me. So and I didn't even think about how they were probably deep fried and Seed oils, and this was a multi-day thing. I had it at like 11 p.m. at night and then I went to bed. And I woke up the next day and my legs ballooned up. And that was the first time they ballooned up in a long time.
[00:42:45] Mike: And I was just like, oh, like it's the seed oils, like, you idiot. My, and so, like, for, for now, like, that's why, when I go to erase, I have my crew bring butter to the age station and have them do it. I even bring like a dino, The Grand Theater. Mm-hmm. He ate the update. They mostly are known for like, creating Hispanic foods but one of their child children has a Celiac, I believe. And so, all their products. Don't have gluten in it and glutens inflammatory. They have tortilla shells that are based with almond flour and so like a lot of these races I'll bring my own seat almond flour tortillas and just, you know, be like, hey guys, I'd like a case study at the next stage station. So go ask the volunteers
[00:43:36] Mike: to make it for me, but give them my tortillas. And so I do bring like a lot of my own stuff, so I can, you know, of those potential ingredients that would contribute a little bit of inflammation during the actual
[00:43:50] Tayson: event. Yeah, I I notice it a lot with carbohydrates. Just instant inflammation and like bloat. So if I was to say, eat a pizza, I get so thirsty afterwards and I'm like, I'm a 200 pounder, right? I'm a big dude. So like I can see myself if like, if I have a weekend of bad eating and I know there's a lot of carbs in there. I can actually see the scale. I mean, I can jump It's not been off there. I mean it has happened before. I've gained a full 10 pounds in like going from like before I went for a run on this day and then like had a bad weekend or maybe a three-day weekend, get back on the scale and I'll be 10 pounds heavier and I've noticed too that I think
[00:44:35] Tayson: Potentially. I'm going to lose it. The glue no glue in gluten. That like, I think that may be related to my swelling part of like, where else will like, specifically not just water attention, but actually some, some additional swelling from from the gluten itself. But I feel like, I feel like that might be a little bit more common than, but I don't know, I've never tried. Not doing seed oils or anything like that. That's a whole nother realm of of
[00:45:06] Mike: watching things. Well, if you want to watch for that, you're gonna have to go down. Yeah, it's a rattle. Okay, you're never gonna eat out again, everybody else. It's crazy. Yeah,
[00:45:16] Tayson: no, and babies. Basically everything at the store, I see oil in it, you know.
[00:45:21] Mike: Yeah. That's why the same thing every day. That's why I don't eat out anymore and if I do eat out, I do a lot of research to make sure they don't use seed oils or to make sure that they take requests like when I go to Texas Roadhouse or something, I'm like, hey, I might be telling a little bit of a white lie, but I'm just like, hey, I have a seed oil allergy. So please just cook my steak either in butter or just flat on the grill with no oils attitude to it. So, it does take a little bit of commitment, but yeah. Gluten most people have an inflammatory response to it. I mean scientifically carbohydrates water holds onto carbohydrates. And so when you do have like a bad weekend of eating, a lot
[00:46:01] Mike: of carbohydrates, like that 10 pounds that you gained, like I guess, nine pounds of it is just water weight, it'll come back
[00:46:08] Tayson: off. If I eat better for a few days and exercise.
[00:46:11] Mike: Yeah and I guess in that you're stomach does feel like a lot more jiggly like yeah.
[00:46:16] Tayson: Yeah. That's
[00:46:17] Mike: what happens to me too. Like whenever I have a higher carbohydrate week like I used to do sushi, every Friday night before a long run, but now like I legit just do me a strawberry and fruit like and that's it. But yeah, like when I do sushi, I'd gain five to 10 pounds and most of it was water weight in my stomach like had a lot more jiggled to it like
[00:46:39] Tayson: you're speaking my language. That's exactly what I ate after that. 20 mile run I literally
[00:46:47] Mike: So good. The car like a simple carbohydrate with the rise and the protein like sushi is so good. was the other thing I was gonna say, So there is a me and a buddy. We just started a podcast where we talk about food. Basically, like we're calling it, The Primal show and we teamed up with the company called levels health. They sent us a continuous glucose monitor and we were gonna do this thing where like the monitor is going to work for a month. We're going to do the first two weeks eating, our own typical diet just to see You know what the data showed. And like I said at the start of this podcast, like I would eat a big bowl of fruit with honey. My blood glucose was like 80 before I ate
[00:47:33] Mike: it and the highest that went up to is like 90 which like for anybody that knows anything about blood glucose levels, they say the normal range, I believe is like 70 or 82, 150. And so, it's a wide range. But like I was still on the low end of that rage even after eating write 60 grams of carbohydrates in the form of fruit. But towards the end of this experiment, we're gonna try doing the standard American diet for a whole week. Just to see what would happen with the glucose and like you know how long it take to potentially periodically, just rise. And so long story short, we only lasted a day. We did not last a full week but like so, And the thing was, is we told everybody we're just going to eat
[00:48:17] Mike: how we used to eat. And for me, I'm sure you've heard of Panda Express.
[00:48:21] Tayson: Mm-hmm. Yeah,
[00:48:23] Mike: yeah. So before, I ate this way, like Panda Express, I probably ate there, like no joke, three to four times a week. Like I was a dick like I'm what everybody asked me the foods I missed. So like do you missed ice cream? Name is cake and stuff? I'm like no I don't miss any of that but I miss deep fried Chinese food like I love that stuff. So like it's so good. So like my first meal was Panda Express. I had it on a Friday night, interestingly enough, my glucose only Spike so about 110. And so for me like that confirmed that like, if you're metabolically healthy like one bad Mill a week, is not gonna jeopardize your health. If you're okay with all the other negatives that come from it, which I was
[00:49:07] Mike: not okay with. And what I mean by that was I didn't sleep good that night. I woke up with the biggest headache of my life and then that run that day that run, it was my long run, I'd done that route multiple times and like I ran it. No joke, two minutes per mile slower just because my joints ached I just felt super fatigued and dead. I have that stupid headache. I couldn't get rid of not to give too much information, but like I had diarrhea like crazy and like those negatives lasted for three days. Like,
[00:49:41] Tayson: wow,
[00:49:42] Mike: I had a headache for three days. I had diarrhea for three days. My energy on my runs were junk and so I'm sure a lot of that's just because of how strict I am. But you know for me like that's not worth it. Like I'd much rather just be strict and feel good and feel fresh and feel healthy.
[00:49:57] Tayson: Well you can adapt to diets an extreme level, right? I always remember. I lived a couple years in Malaysia and you'd actually bring something that was finally sweet and good to taste. And like the people there would try to eat it and they would just take like two bites and be like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna be sick. Like, I can't, I can't even touch it, right? And I mean, they just knew so quickly that they couldn't, and I'm over here like, dude, just keep it coming. I had sugar, and so long, you know? And so, I think, I think in so many ways like the body, you know, it does adapt, and it does just just totally anyways, I know, I know one thing I wanted to talk about was your broken or broken
[00:50:40] Tayson: to Breaking documentary.
[00:50:43] Mike: That's
[00:50:43] Tayson: a documentary about you breaking the Colorado Trail fkt, which is which is awesome. We're gonna go to 100 miles of that trail this summer as a team here at revital. So I'm excited to go. We're going to go kind of through the San Juans start on the saint. Juan with
[00:50:57] Mike: us.
[00:50:59] Tayson: Out of Durango there. So, Looking forward to that, but I do remember you like ate a donut in that right? So mad, you think that doughnut because like it's making my knees heard or you know like it was pretty like pretty immediate. How fast do you can pick up on things which I think there's so many people walking around that are in pain all the time but they're in so much pain. They can't pick up on it like some like you could
[00:51:24] Mike: Yeah you're just chronically used to it and it's just how you live your life and what you cut that stuff out and see how good he can feel it. Yeah. You notice it pretty quickly and I'm like, you know, everybody jokes with me and I agree. It's like, it's like you're probably had issues after that donut like not because of the doughnut but because you're 400 mi into this thing and like I do agree with them to an extent but it's like so, like What happened was, like, my knee was, like, just kind of in this gray area from mile 300 to 400, where it was like, kind of sore, kind of tender didn't feel right? I had to do like a lot of Mobility work to keep it filling. Okay. And then I went
[00:52:05] Mike: and I had that donut and then I left and then like five miles later, like it just like went to crap. And so you over. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, I do believe the initial issues stemmed from just high mileage, but I also believe that that the high sugar concept of that donut which I hardly ever have and then the gluten and that doughnut, which I never have just like was enough to just like send it over to the other side. So yeah, hi mileage does where the body down but nutrition. Yeah, I mean
[00:52:35] Tayson: that documentary was awesome. I really enjoyed it. It was how fast did you end up? Completing the the Colorado Trail.
[00:52:44] Mike: It was seven days and 13 hours.
[00:52:48] Tayson: Yeah. Just a phenomenal effort for sure. And then that country is No joke, right? Like I like the San Juan's even the that's kind of the section. I've been in more and they're they're just insane. Like you can get to a Trailhead and already like I did this last year. Pulled up to a Trailhead late at night and I was feeling like minor altitude sickness before I got out of the vehicle. You know what I mean? Because I was I was like I don't even know what I was. I was like above 11,000 feet or close to 12,000 feet at the trailhead, you know, that's how high those mountains are and just how brutal they are but I need to let you know. I need to wrap this up quick question. How many eggs a
[00:53:32] Tayson: week do you eat?
[00:53:36] Mike: Just me about four dozen a week or doesn't eggs.
[00:53:41] Tayson: Yeah. Do you do that thing and just eat them raw. Just drink them.
[00:53:45] Mike: I mean like this morning with my, how quickly I had to get out to that run Club thing like that protein, shake that I made. I did add two rights to it. I mean, when we're done here, I have a few coaching calls, but for lunch, I'm probably gonna scramble up six, or seven eggs. So, I have a good eight or silly eggs a day probably, Crazy
