[00:00:00] Tayson: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Live Ultralight Podcast powered by Outdoor Vitals today. We're gonna be covering a topic That's really centered around how gear is made and that there's a ton of misconceptions out there so we're me and Brigham here are going to just be yeah exploring the topic of how gear is really made and Sometimes just the the funny nuances or the things that maybe we even used to believe about how gears made But are things going Brigham?
[00:00:28] Brigham: They're going well. Yep summers in full swing.
[00:00:31] Tayson: How's How I know we just were talking about plans yesterday But how's the summer been so far and what's what's the outlook looking like as far as just getting out and enjoying it?
[00:00:41] Brigham: It's been good so far Weather -wise we went like from spring to hot hot summer like in a seven -day period I went out of town you went out of town pretty much at the same time and it felt like a nice spring June it was like 70s and then we got back and it was mid 90s and it was pretty crazy, but I've had a backpacking trip last week with a couple of my kids and then I'll be out and I'll be out in the mountains Every week for like the next four or five weeks, so it'll be It'll be good.
[00:01:14] Tayson: Yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to it We take off this Sunday to start driving at least and then all of next week will be out on the trail Clicking off 100 miles on the Colorado Trail, which we're I think we're all pretty amped about I was looking at the trail this morning It's exciting. It's a lot of high country, which is stuff that we absolutely love and be a lot of elevation climbing which is something we also tend to enjoy but Just a new cool country and I'm getting amped up about it. We're trying for sure I will say this I am trying to get like my gear packed my food packed Well in advance this time.
[00:01:54] Tayson: I that's probably the single thing That is like the biggest pain point or the biggest thing that keeps me from getting excited about trips is If I don't get packed early enough and like it's the night before and I'm packing and I know I should be sleeping You know that whole situation. I apparently I just I don't know I run my life too busy or I delay it too much But I'm I'm on a good trajectory this week to not be doing that scramble come Saturday night
[00:02:20] Brigham: Yeah, we talked about it yesterday. My my only stress is not packing packing is like the easiest like I don't think about it part but food Shopping for food selecting food and and then you know planning out the the food situation. That's my stress point is I always feel like I don't do a good job and I kind of just Get some things together and I'm never like suffering from it, but it's like that's my stress points I always feel like I do a Suboptimal job of planning and packing my food.
[00:02:54] Tayson: I Would second that I've had situations where I thought I've packed the right food Got out there and realized I didn't want any of it I've had situations where I've packed phenomenal food and had just felt like I was eating You know at a five -star restaurant every day It felt you know Like as far as just how much I wanted to eat the food that I had and last year on the Uinta Highline Trail, which is our last hundred mile effort as a team I Did not pack like I normally would I definitely threw things together last minute I was just throwing things in a bag to hit hit certain calorie levels and I paid for it and that was That was hopefully a lesson.
[00:03:32] Tayson: I'll remember for a long time and not need to maybe relearn it I think maybe you can do that at times when it's one two nights and get away with it But by day like four I was just done with the food that I had brought Specifically for like lunch and snacks because my dinner and my breakfast are very consistent I pretty much eat an Alpen Fuel in the morning for breakfast every morning every time and a peak refuel meal For night we are gonna be trying out some new food on this trip So that'll be interesting if we love it, you'll probably see it in the members Area here in the near future.
[00:04:08] Tayson: So we'll try to report back on that if if you don't hear back from us that means we probably didn't love it, but I think it shows a lot of promise and gives a little bit more variety just meal options and so I'm excited to try some of we we got to sample some of them at Outdoor Retailer recently and From what we tasted there. We were we were excited.
[Editor’s note: This members-area food plan was discussed in July 2023 and should not be read as a current product, feature, or availability announcement.]
[00:04:29] Brigham: So yeah, it was it was pretty good.
[00:04:31] Tayson: We'll see okay, so again coming back to this topic of You don't know how outdoor gear is developed. It's kind of this blanket statement It came up in a meeting recently that there's a lot of miss Perceptions out there and that pretty much everyone in the office had misperceptions before coming in Brigham I'd imagine that you probably had misperceptions before going through a design program or whatever involvement you you know, wherever For you, but I think typically there's just these these confusion points for people, that don't understand how gears made don't understand maybe Brands and how things work with specific Brands and kind of everything in between. So I'm going to start off. I'm going to pose a question. That is the most common question I get. When I introduce myself, you know, and they ask, what do you do for work? Or what do you do for a living?
[00:05:25] Tayson: And I, you know, tell them about Outdoor Vitals, you know, typically the most common question I get is like, how do you produce your goods? Do you, do you have a factor? Do you own a factory overseas or do you know like the idea or the concept here is that because we design all the gear, we develop all the gear, we produce all the gear, you know and we sell the gear that is that we actually Own the factories that are doing the cut and sew or, you know, everything in between. So I want to really break that down of why to us, you know, I think on the day-to-day basis we kind of laugh or bark at that but from the outside perspective that was a belief I also had right.
[00:06:10] Tayson: I believe that companies like Patagonia or The North Face or fill in the blank had their own Factory is when I was growing up and Didn't know any different I thought that that like literally Patagonia. Had a Patagonia Factory sitting in Vietnam or had a Patagonia Factory sitting in Colombia and that they're the goods that were coming out of those countries were literally produced under factory that they had 100% ownership over. And again, I think that's to me, that was the first and foremost question that came to mind. And the first and foremost question that I just consistently. Get when people find out that we, you know, design and develop and have an outdoor brand. So, What is the answer to that program? Do they or do they not? And then let's get into the, why?
[00:07:00] Brigham: Well. As is my personality, I don't want to, I, we couldn't possibly speak for every brand out there. And I do think that it would not be accurate to say that nobody owns their own Factory, nobody manufactures their own gear in their own. And their own facility but it is probably much less common. And so, and the reality is we are us. We don't know what everybody else does. That's that's one thing I'd say. That's a misconception about the industry is that if you are in the industry that you just know everything about the industry and you know what everybody else does, what everybody else uses and all this and that's just not true. So most accurately we can speak to what we know for ourselves but you do gain a lot of insight and awareness of the general.
[00:07:51] Brigham: That a lot of the generalities within the industry because we deal with factories that are manufacturing products for A number of other brands and we're made aware of those Brands so yeah, I'd say it's most common that brands do not, you know own their own manufacturing or sewing facility or whatever the product is. in soft goods, which is, you know, sewn products, very common for there to be Big large, manufacturing facilities, that many, many Brands work with and have their products. Produced there.
[00:08:35] Tayson: Yeah. Maybe let's talk for a second before I move through this question, further of like, who would produce their own Goods, right? Because there are people out there that for sure, do. And I think it's in our industry. It's probably just easy to call out that there are certain cottage style companies. That, that's that's kind of the nature of a college style company is that they may be start by selling their own stuff and then some of them scale it and some of them will ship it off to be made somewhere else.
[00:09:01] Brigham: Yeah, that that's definitely true. That's definitely a case with like you say, a lot of the college Brands, but I would say that there's even some clarification that can be done there. Like there are brands that own their own manufacturing, they do their own manufacturing, and I wouldn't call them Cottage Brands. They would be probably bigger than us and they own their own Factory. They manufacture their products there. And I don't, I would not consider that, like, you know, people making stuff out of the garage. Like there are There are there are plenty of Brands. It's very it's much less common but there are Companies bigger than us making their own products in their own facilities that they own that are, you know, a legitimate manufacturing facility. It's just much less common. The majority of brands are doing it, you know, and probably doing it at large facilities.
[00:09:55] Brigham: So I wouldn't want to speak in a way that says like, Cottage industry, they're the only people manufacturing their own gear in their own facilities because that's that's not the case. It's just very uncommon.
[00:10:11] Tayson: And I would just emphasize that too very uncommon. And I would also say that that it's very, it would be very uncommon for any brand to even have a small. Equity stake in a factory or something like that. I think that was another misperception, I might have had personally, is that maybe they come in and partner with the factory? Well, the word partner can also be used interchangeably, right? Because in some sense is a partnership, could be like an equity, you know, a piece of ownership in a factory in another census. That can just be, no we have a great relationship, a long-term, working relationship and that is the more common use of the word partnership within this industry as well. But so why would a company? Let's say is big is Patagonia who You know, produce somewhere around a billion dollars worth of sales a year.
[00:11:05] Tayson: Why would they not own their own Factory and and yeah, I guess let's just start with that question.
[00:11:14] Brigham: Here I'll preface this with this is 100% speculation we're having fun here. We're
[00:11:20] Tayson: not necessarily answering everything super factual but from RC to the table, the entire conversation is going to be from our C to the table. What we know but it's we're not, you know, don't go quoting this to anyone. Don't go. Yeah. I mean, just just kind of throw that out there yet again. Yeah.
[00:11:37] Brigham: So this is speculation. So, I I would imagine that, you know, a large brand like that would choose to not own their own Factory. Just for diversification diversification of, you know, scheduling production. And frankly, the volume could not be contained within one Factory. So it just makes sense to have multiple factories, running different lines. Different product lines, different product types. So it's a very practical in my mind. Speculating why it would be a very practical base thought, process and decision-making process of. Yeah, just diversification of product lines scheduling timing shipping and meeting the demands. It like the sales demands that they have in terms of volume and numbers so that I think that's like that would be my overall, top kind of set of reasons.
[00:12:36] Tayson: Yeah. I think one of the things that that I would add in their and speculate about and and, you know, and from our position as a business too would be that it's very difficult to be the best at everything, right. So if we're the best at say, the designing side of the product, if we were to own a factory, we'd have to then become the best at the manufacturing side, and that's a, an entirely different thing. And then depending on the product at hand, we'd have to become the best at waterproof seam taping and other aspects that just take either. A lot of Machinery, they take a lot of skill set.
[00:13:13] Tayson: They take a lot of, you know, it's just it's massive Endeavors to undertake versus letting someone else come in and own that be 100% in charge of that, and make that their like what they can be the best in the world at for their, in that situation. And then we can just tap into that so there's factories out there that will just produce waterproof. Jackets, there's factories out there that will just produce tents, there's factors out there they'll just produce a specific kind of a tent And the list goes on and on and on. And so what that really allows them to do is, you know, have the right skill. Set have a incredible amount of Experience in that specific product for sewers and workers and everyone else involved with that process and it just it just really lends itself to a better finished end result.
[00:14:11] Tayson: If you did have a factory, that was making everything under the sun and cleaning that they're doing it at the highest level possible, that would be a red flag. I would think for either of us to be like it
[00:14:21] Brigham: definitely like warrant some further investigation. I mean unless they're just it's just absolutely massive. So with with manufacturing facilities we'll just call him factories to your point about like, kind of the specialization of product type, right? So Any business. Well, Generally a business in manufacturing, like their money making is in maximizing. Efficiency in terms of time and labor. So it is a much more challenging Prospect to maximize that cost efficiency. With. Add spectrum of products being manufactured there. If you can become just a plus like super efficient with like you said, waterproof breathable, jackets and seam taping, then, you know that you only have to buy a limited type a limited. Type of Machinery, right to to make a limited type of product. And then you maximize that factory is able to maximize efficiency and that that savings is passed on to the brand, like, let's say us or any other brand.
[00:15:33] Brigham: So, so a brand is able to capitalize on the the efficiency of a factory that say makes just tents or just backpacks. That factory has done everything they can to to to maximize that efficiency for cost and resources and like and so that's where the diversification comes in because a brand is able to, you know, select a factory for Different types of products that is now maximized with efficiency and then that savings is passed on to the brand and to the customer. Whereas the other thing with with factories is Okay, let's say Brand X. Pulls in a billion dollars a year. Well, if that brand were to manufacture everything in their own factories, I would say They're overhead is probably 10x that billion dollar number if not, if not more. So, To own a factory that can make let's say. Waterproof, jackets, rain jackets.
[00:16:42] Brigham: The machine read, just the sewing machines and let's say at a high volume. So they've they've got 1500 sewers. Okay. That's a probably between 500 and 1000 machines, just sewing machines. Each one of those machines is 10,000 dollars. okay, now, if you get into seam taping machines, They might have 50 seam taping machines or let's say 20 least, one of those machines is probably 40,000 dollars. so, Now, you've got a have just that product line, but if that brand is trying to make everything for themselves, rain jackets, backpacks apparel. Let's you know, I mean and I mean shoes, so you've got thousands and thousands of machines racking up into the millions of dollars just in machinery and then all those employees and the labor and then the building itself, you know, you're talking a double-digit million dollar building and the property to acquire or the taxes.
[00:17:47] Brigham: I mean it's just it's just insane and there's just no I mean it's just doesn't make a lot of sense at that scale to to try to do it you know, for oneself as
[00:17:57] Tayson: a brand. So I mean, you can, you can see just how complicated and how fast it would become complicated as well as the investment. there's a couple of areas I want to go with this and I want to do what we can all. So to pull this back to finish Goods, that's going to matter to use The Backpacker, use a user. One of the things I would say though is especially when you're talking about with with massive Brands, you could buy a pair of say Salomon shoes that's going to come out of India and you could buy a pair of Salomon shoes that would come out of Vietnam because they're actually running the same exact pair of shoes and multiple factories. For diversification purposes. And there's there's advantages as a business for that. There's but there's you know, as a user there could be issues with that as well, right?
[00:18:47] Tayson: So because it always comes back to how good are their Partners? How good, are they able to manufacture both of these and both countries? But from a business perspective, that is a very common thing to do to run product in multiple countries for diversification. the other thing that I think is a miss perception. That people don't think about like I think if they stopped and thought about this, it would make a ton of sense, right? But you don't have one like everything to make. Let's say even a even a son hoodie or Jacket or a backpack, everything doesn't come out of one Factory. And what I mean by that is they don't make the Fabrics there and then the trims there. So, like the zippers and they don't make the buckles there and the buttons or whatever it, you know, all of these parts don't just come and are manufactured in inside of one Factory.
[00:19:43] Tayson: And I think this is part of why this that also plays into this is Like, where would this stop essentially? But you know if you if you were to make let's say a backpack. Like our Shadowlight. Well, you're gonna be buying Duraflex, buckles, you're gonna be buying a YKK zippers. Then you're gonna be buying mesh that likely is coming from this fabric supplier. And then you're likely going to be buying the actual main fabric component for us, the Shadowlight fabric, you know. And that's going to be coming from this supplier out in Taiwan and then, you know, and it's just going to go on and on and on where you're sourcing tons and tons of components and you're really bringing them Under One Roof just for the assembly part of that. So when you pull it back again to like, well, why wouldn't massive company have their own manufacturing facilities?
[00:20:32] Tayson: Well, it's like, well, they could let's say they went and they did do a cut-and-sew facility. but like, There's still having to Source everything and there's still a ton of different factories. Specialized in a ton of different things all over and you know let's just say it was Fabrics. There's there's so much to making a fabric and developing a fabric and testing a fabric and So much, you know, as far as investment goes as far as skill set goes, as far as Machinery goes, as far as, you know, just all of these things and so really when you guys get any finished good it's coming. It like that components of that and you know, basically the piece itself has come out of numerous factories from all over the world and it's really a remarkable thing. When you think about just how complicated it is, to pull all that together into a finished product.
[00:21:26] Tayson: And, you know, over Decades of time, it's become more and more streamlined, but it's, it's really a remarkable thing to and something that I think is people understand. But they never really stopped to think about that. Like that Fabrics are not being made in the same Factory typically that the sewing is being done at its
[00:21:47] Brigham: I'm going to really common everyday way to kind of parallel or to draw comparison to is think of a pizza. so Pizza is made of dough and then some ingredients, well to make that dough, required flour, yeast, some other things, Um, well, so you got a restaurant that makes pizza for you. They bought the flower, the yeast, all those ingredients, maybe from the same supplier, but those raw ingredients came from one supplier and maybe they mixed the dough at the restaurant, but maybe they don't. There's pizza joints out there that That by their finished dough from a finished dose supplier. Okay? So now you have flower coming from One Direction going to a dough maker dough, maker goes to the restaurant, but that restaurant can't make a pizza with just dose. They have to have sauce. So they may buy a fish sauce, they may mix the sauce.
[00:22:46] Brigham: So finish sauce again is broken down to a finished sauce supplier. That buys all the Ron ingredients for multiple suppliers to make the Finish sauce, or they make the sauce themselves, they Source the Run ingredients, they make the sauce themselves, put it on the pizza. Same thing with the cheese coming from Dairy Farmers to dairy product manufacturers. So now you've sourced the cheese and now you've got pepperoni and sausage two, different Meats, two different suppliers. You've got vegetables different Farms. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, there's so many things that are similar in life, but I mean, we just tend not to realize it or think about it. But it really is, you know, so with with sewn products, Fabric is made from a raw product, you know, that's a, that's a yarn that's made from, you know, different fibers.
[00:23:36] Brigham: And oftentimes, those fiber manufacturers are taking that raw product, shipping it off to a yarn manufacturer who's making the yarn and then shipping that off to the Fabric Mill. And then the mill is taking all that weaving it together to a product they may or may not do finishing, treatments, or waterproofing laminations or Coatings at that. Same facility, that may move to another facility that specializes in lamination. And then that's going to be shipped to the cut and sew or the sewing manufacturing facility. That is now kind of like the central Hub, where all the ingredients land to be put together assembled to make a finished product.
[00:24:19] Tayson: I'm gonna stop us here for just one second because I think it's very overwhelming to hear all of that and I feel like one thing that can be taken away from all of that is be. Conscious about the purchases you make because while you may just be buying you know one little widget you know one little whatever it is and in day to day everything, right? Whether it's pizza or backpacks or anything in between There is a ton of just impact and Logistics and everything involved to get even something that could be purchased for a dollar to that point.
[00:24:56] Tayson: And so to me the farther I get into this side, the more you just realize like be conscious about what you buy, you know, buy stuff that's gonna last you, you know, all those kinds of things because just even buying cheap junk, that's that, you're going to use one time and throw away or film the blank like The amount of of just impact and it comes to Logistics when it comes to, you know, the parts that go into that, whether that be plastic. So that would be anything in between they're real and they're substantial. And there's just like you say you, you will likely never understand how deep of a system or I don't know, I can't think of the right words cycle, it takes to develop.
[00:25:39] Tayson: Even some of the most simple items out there, whether it's that, you know, gatorade bottle sit on the table here, you know, like the Plastics well, what components go into that plastic, that makes that specific to be, that density to be that You know, all of those kinds of things are really substantial. And I think we should always be very conscious about where we put our money. What we're purchasing because To this before, I'll say it again, we're voting with the world that we want through our dollars, okay? So this one flows really well. This is another one. Just on the list here of kind of questions that are misconceptions, is why does it take so long to make a product, you know? When we have an idea for a product, why does it take?
[00:26:25] Tayson: Years, often years to get that product into fruition and I feel like we started to answer that already just by breaking down. All of the different steps involved and in I would say in different podcasts we've break down how much testing is also involved. So between all of the complicated steps involving Tons of factories often to to develop one prototype. Then we'll quickly take one prototype, test it and send it back for more changes over and over again. And so that's a massive component. The other thing though, that maybe we talk about a little bit less is just capacities of factories to produce things. Depending on. Different times of year, covid, affect, whatever. It is, capacities, can can drastically range but I would say most factories are going to sit in a position or try to optimize for a position that they have the ability for us to submit a PO.
[00:27:27] Tayson: And B start sewing on that PO. Let's say 90 days later, why 90 days? Well, a lot of times you're you're looking at something like fabric lead times. You're looking at sourcing all of the trims and, and in any components, you're bringing it in there, they don't want that to be arriving on the 29th and then them to start sewing on the 30th, right? Because they're running a massive scale and if one thing is missing, they can't start. So they want buffer room themselves and so, really the fastest I've ever heard of is about a 90-day period for them to even start sewing. Well, then they start sewing and they're Going to be sewing for 30 days. To produce, whatever purchase orders been placed and then you still got to ship it over to us. So really fast case scenario, you might be looking at five months from the time.
[00:28:12] Tayson: We say, go on a project and send money over to the time that we would get that product back. And that's some of the best case scenario. We've had situations where it's taken more than 12 months in in the heart of covid. When when the outdoor Spike was at its peak. And, you know, tons of other manual people Manufacturing. Are also throwing in really big purchase orders to try to keep up with demand. And then, and then it just goes down the list, every single component because you could just be waiting on one zipper that that's out of stock that they can't produce and and that's happened where we've, I can't think of an example, but I feel like we've had that happen where they come back and say we just can't get this. Do you guys want to do an alternate or do you want to wait? And so it's it's it's extremely interesting.
[00:28:59] Tayson: When you start to peel back the curtain a little bit and transparency of what it looks like to realize. Like yeah. Five months is actually Speedy quick. I mean, how would you guys imagine yourself being the owner of a factory with let's say 3000 workers and literally accepting a poem being expected to ship it in 30 days. That would mean that in 30 days. If you didn't get a purchase order, you've got two to 3000 people that don't have work to do, right? So they want to have a buffer themselves, there's an optimal amount of work that they have in the pipeline. Stay safe and consistent in their minds as well. And so it's, it's definitely interesting. But there's all of these touch points that all add up to why it takes so long to make a product.
[00:29:43] Tayson: It could even be in the case of say, our certain products of ours, all go with the Nova line of jackets. What we're custom making a fabric. So now we've got a custom fabric that has to be produced in a factory and they have to adjust Machinery, they have to test it out. They have to do small quantity, you know, batches to make sure. It's even going to work to begin with. There's there's tons of steps to, to even get to that point. Which then means that the Prototype is going to take twice as long before it gets into our hands to even start testing. So there's so many areas where projects could take way longer than than you would think. It just takes just one of those to go wrong to to tip the whole domino to make a product.
[00:30:30] Tayson: Maybe, you know, take Go from 12 months of idea, to being out there to 24 or 36. We've seen it all.
[00:30:41] Brigham: Yeah, that's, it's, it's definitely multifaceted. I mean, there's, there's kind of two main prongs as like, the, there's the design and the development like testing side, and then there's the manufacturing supplier side, where on the supplier side, it really is We're just taking a place in line like that. Really, it comes right down to that, like we order. We place a PO for a tent. We're now in line, where, whatever wherever we fall in line for all those different materials and then the the sewing, you know, the main manufacturing facility where we just taken a place in multiple lines and and that's just how it is. Because of all the parts and pieces that have to be made each one of those, we just fall in line. And then like you mentioned before on the unlike the design and development side, the testing side. You know, we're we're we don't just place.
[00:31:34] Brigham: We don't just send off a design and place an order for it and then it comes. We really want to refine the product and and test it and and kind of vetted out and make sure that it's going to do what it's designed to do. And that Almost always well every single time requires. many, many prototypes and lots of In our case it's usually Milds or nights. So just lots of time in the field where we're testing something out because you can't just test something out once or twice you may get a feeling about something and then Take it out to another environment on another trip. Test out again, and you get a different feeling for it, whether that's good or bad. And we really try to to weed that out and filter through all of that.
[00:32:22] Brigham: So that process in and of itself is usually like, close to a year, just the Prototype, testing process, not to mention the the manufacturing, you know, the the lines that we have to wait in
[00:32:39] Tayson: Okay, I've got another question here but I wanted to maybe give you a chance bringing if you ever get asked things. That are misconceptions when they find out that you design product as a career path.
[00:32:56] Brigham: I don't get I don't it's hard to think of like misconceptions people have that. It's almost like there's like some voids and in understanding or information that people have that or even that I had but kind of covered one is like Okay. So You know, do you? So do you you make it and then you sew it type thing and we've kind of talked about that that's that's not that's not how we do it. There's a lot of things that, you know, I could prototype and sew up myself, but it's just terribly inefficient. So that's just not how we choose to do it. I think
[00:33:33] Tayson: that is a probably a really good one though is like when someone hears that your product designer, or if they're like, I would love to design product, I think they likely envision. you know, sewing up a million prototypes and Just spending a lot of time. We'll say in the design studio versus working. You know, through digital methods drawing out things on computers. You know, I think that is just a pretty frequent misconception is that that yeah, like I want to be a product designer, I just want to be sewing product all day and that's like Brigham said, it's it's actually really inefficient. It's not. use of time and unless you're more of a sewer than it does a designer, it's
[00:34:19] Brigham: well, and I would say It's inefficient for us. It may not be as inefficient or even it might not be inefficient for some other brand and their business structure at all for us. True. It's just inefficient. Now I will say I I have the technical capability and the skill set to sew pretty much anything that we make. I was educated for that in my schooling, but and I really enjoy it worked. It's like you, you definitely feel the full process of creation when you're doing that. And I really do enjoy it, but it is It's for for our business structure. It's very inefficient because we met, we have multiple product lines under development ongoing and we don't necessarily well, we definitely aren't trying to rush developmental along, but we do have to stay relevant in terms of, you know, we don't want to start something in the six years later, release.
[00:35:22] Brigham: It now, I mean, because then four other brands have released some release, something better three years ago, you know? So there's the there is timeliness of it. And so, when it comes to the efficiency, I can't just dedicate all this time to one product because I will say that that to to mentally, and then graphically design something and then physically create it is to me the full spectrum of product design because to create something is to design it, and I don't think one can fully understand the design of something. If they are not physically capable of putting that, Together. So it is it is a lot of fun.
[00:36:02] Brigham: It is really, it's, it's rewarding work but for us like I said so many product lines being developed at the same time for me to take One to two weeks to sew up prototypes of one product that just set eight other products behind two weeks and and so we can have multiple prototypes being made in different facilities at the same time and it's just it's it's just so efficient for us and it works. It works really well.
[00:36:32] Tayson: Okay, so another question that I have is. Okay, so if we're all using and I guess we didn't specific But more or less factories that were using or maybe other that they're obviously producing other top name. Prosper Brands products at the same time that they're producing ours, you can say the same, you know. for any of these Brands out here that are utilizing, you know that That are not the anomaly that are producing for themselves. You know their fabric is being run next. To this other fabric that's being run, you're tapping the same conversations a lot of the same relationships, you know, obviously the same CEO of this Factory. So if all the brands are doing that, what what defines them? What makes them any different or have any unique ability? You know, what makes them bring something unique to Market.
[00:37:27] Tayson: If we're essentially, rubbing shoulders with a lot of the same fabric manufacturers, a lot of the same sewing manufacturers, a lot of the same, you know, you look at Gore-Tex or something, right? Like the amount of Gore-Tex in every single product in the world. So, in your mind, you know what's left to Define? If if a handful of factories are producing, you know, so much of the top tier products out there.
[00:37:53] Brigham: Yeah. I mean it really comes from the brand, what, what's going to differentiate it? Or, you know, like you said they're made in the same place. How are they different? It 100% is because of its going to be because of whatever's going on, on the brand side, go to bat, you know, however, deep that brand wants to go into design and development like that's what's going to be different about it. You know, so, and and that can be broken down into so many things. So, I couldn't just say, oh, it's just the design. Well, because what is the design based on, or who's designing, it, or who's providing feedback on those prototypes? So, you know, for us when I talk about, like our business organization and structure, you know, we're like, So, we can create a design and that would differentiate it, but there's more behind it.
[00:38:47] Brigham: So, you know, I'm a Backpacker that's been doing it for 35 years, so that's something else that may not come to fruition with somebody else's product but then that product is also being tested by many other people. Our own people where we're receiving real-time face-to-face feedback were on a trail in Colorado or Utah or Washington and you or somebody else on the trip can talk to me face-to-face real time and say this is bothering me or this is working really well or I forgot about this feature or whatever it is. So that's another thing that goes underneath the brand that is going to influence. How that product is different from another product that's made in one sewing line over, you know. So there's there's so much into that that That's, that's really how it's going to be differentiated is on what all the factors that a brand is willing to put into it?
[00:39:47] Tayson: Yeah, what are the brands? Priorities?
[00:39:50] Brigham: Exactly.
[00:39:50] Tayson: Yeah, the brands priorities are going to Define because really the the factory is just a mechanism to produce whatever it is, you know, it's like you put these input. Then you get this output. So, really the brand pulls all of the levers on what the inputs are. And and then the output comes on that on the other side. But this does pose kind of another question. Our Outdoor Products being made by professionals. What is our take on professionals? I think this kind of came from. This is a question that was posed and part of it. Was this concept that a lot of product design was like, super scientific and lots of Laboratory Testing was being done and That like if you were designing product you were like the Pinnacle of avid Backpacker that all.
[00:40:46] Tayson: So was basically a scientist with a design like kind of this like super blown out of proportion concept, which I'm not saying there's not a lot of Robert, a lot of Laboratory Testing, that's involved, you know, from the fabric side to standardization to, you know, things like that. Or that we're not getting like the Pinnacle of Backpackers to design. I'm not saying any of that. I'm just saying you know, our Outdoor Products being made by professionals and what's our take on professionals because I think that has probably Been skewed over time as well.
[00:41:17] Brigham: Yeah, I mean, my problem is hopefully everybody knows this by now. I can go on and on and I will break everything down into more detail. So I'll try to do that but not do it too much. But I mean, like what does made mean Are made by professionals Define made designed. Sewn manufactured, or or you know what I mean? Like so is the idea does that Fall under may like, and here's an idea. So that person that had that idea now made that. So I'll try to break it down in terms of. Let's let's start with like in my mind. What is being physically made? Like the actual Physical assembly and, and, and production of that. So who is making it? I would say 100%. Those people are the Pinnacle of professional sewers. The pretty much all the factories that sew our products, any of our sewn products, like the average.
[00:42:21] Brigham: Sewing experience is eight plus years. so and there, and they do it at a rate that I mean, You know there's so many like cliche terms to use like knowing things like the back of your hand, but I've brought this up to you before. I think of the sewing expertise and the manufacturing expertise of the individuals manufacturing products that end up in our customers hands. The parallel I use is like a in like the medical field. Let's say you're a parent and you've got a child or let's say you're you're you know, you've got a spouse that's going into labor giving birth to a child and there's a complication and You've got, you've got who you've got at the hospital, right? Like you've got the staff, that's there and that who that is, who Your child is being handled by right. Do you want? And let's say it's now it's a life threatening situation.
[00:43:32] Brigham: Things of escalated or gone South in in the emergency room or the delivery room and there's life threatening situation. Do you want a doctor that has dealt with that twice that month? Or do you want the doctor that's done that 3,000 times that month? I think, most people would say, yeah, I'll take the doctor that seen this situation 3,000 times already this month. So that's the level at which I'm speaking of when I talk about the professionals that are putting together sewing and Manufacturing, the products So that's that professional side. Like what about the design side? Maybe that's the other thing. So, who's designing it? I mean, really that could there's there's a wide range of who could be designing it. I mean again that comes into like what's different about one product from another product being made at the same Factory as who's designing it whose doing the work who's sourcing the materials.
[00:44:34] Brigham: So you know and I I don't want to I wouldn't be able to speak negatively about anybody. That would be That would be on. Ethical, the be on but there are. There is the possibility that there's a differentiation in terms of who is designing it. What skill sets do? They have what experience levels? Do they have what understanding do they have? And so um, I I would assume that most large companies or most established companies in the outdoor industry, the people designing, it do have a professional level of design skill and so that's it's just an understanding of of how to design a product so that it functions that it performs its functions properly or achieves, the aesthetic that thereafter and so For the most part, you know our our products are designed by professionals, I think so. But there is the possibility that they're not. How are they influenced?
[00:45:40] Brigham: How is that designed influenced aside from a designer? Well, there may be In some companies, structures. They may there may be Top down influence where people, you know, of a higher position in a company, may have what they feel like is a great idea. And all I heard about this, we really need to push this out the door. And then the design department is just kind of like, Okay. Yes, you know. Yeah. What choice do I have? And so they they designed this according to one person's will. But then, there's another possibility where the, the product, the the entire impetus for a product, is based on experience from one person, or many people. It's this collective experience of what works and doesn't work and and what what's missing or what could be improved upon and and that kind of directive.
[00:46:37] Brigham: However, that is formed, you know, whether that's an assignment or just a collective idea of this recognition of a need in a product. All that comes to fruition in that designer's ability to to create a design of a product that hopefully performs its functions. All the problems fills a need and then as and then is passed on. So like well who's behind that? Like are the people influencing those ideas are those professionals? Well, what defines a professional? I mean, I think in a lot of outdoor Industries, there are easily clearly defined lines where you could say that person is a professional. Like if it's a downhill skier. All right. Like that one's pretty easy. People that are in the Olympics in the in the in the World Cup of downhill skiing like yep, those are professionals people that get paid at a high high level to make videos doing extremes King.
[00:47:35] Brigham: Those probably professionals so, but that doesn't mean that somebody else that doesn't get paid that they're input or, you know, feedback on a design process is not valid. It's just like, what, what is a professional man? It's a, it's a rabbit hole I think you could really.
[00:47:54] Tayson: Yeah. It is a rattle, a hole I would say this though, just never assume never assume anything never assume that because of product came from XYZ brand or that it's because of the price point. Let's say, let's say something that really high price point. Let's say, you Something looks really good you know just never assume anything that can't be verified or never assume that this was designed and tested by some professional if it doesn't. See that or prove that for yourself or you can't do some research on that yourself really assumptions. I think are the downfall of this. I think it's very common for people to assume things about product design. And Manufacturing. Right? One of the biggest assumptions that that maybe we can talk about here in a minute, is well, a product was made in China, so it's terrible quality, right? Like, talk about like an assumption of.
[00:48:56] Tayson: Well, clearly there's not a single professional sewer in China like it's it's astronomical. And they're saying that because of an assumption that yes, there is absolute crap that comes out of China. And or if you take it the other direction, maybe it's you assume that because this well-known backpack company, put these specific pockets on a pact that they were put there because of function. When in reality they were put there because of Aesthetics. Right? And so I think, I think when you kind of pull the curtain back on professional, well, does that mean that the professional was a professional Backpacker? Or was that professional a professional? I can't think of the word but Minor of Aesthetics, you know what I mean? Aesthetic designer, because you can absolutely bring someone and say, hey, make this look better.
[00:49:46] Tayson: So it'll sell more on a retail Shelf, versus make this perform better in the field and both people can be professionals. Professionals are gonna matter to you when you've got a different set of priorities. So I would just kind of say with that never assume anything. On the side of, maybe assumptions that can be made when it comes to manufacturing or realities of kind of being made in America or other locations. I think that's a big one too. To talk about, right? Like we produce almost nothing in China anymore but we did and there was fantastic.
[00:50:20] Tayson: Most of our stuff is now produced in Vietnam and I think our opinion on this is that we're manufacturing and Facilities to have some of the best sewing workers in the world and that they have some of the best systems and managers and teams in the world for doing what they do, does it matter that it comes out of Vietnam? Because you could say, well, maybe I had a product that came out of Vietnam and it wasn't high quality or whatever and so those kinds of assumptions have real negative effects and a really kind of if you were to be one saying those things can really say a lot about yourself as well without realizing it. But I guess, I guess with this, it would be The assumption that that may be manufacturing overseas, is that it can be low quality. Say, absolutely not true. All right. Like Brigham already.
[Editor’s note: This manufacturing-location statement reflects Outdoor Vitals’ July 2023 account. Supplier locations and production arrangements may differ today.]
[00:51:17] Tayson: Alluded to average, you know, age of our age but average length of time people sewing can range from an app like in one Factory might be five years. It's the average sewing length of time and others. It might be eight, you know, there are sewers there that have worked there for 20 years sewing, so the amount of skill that they have is just tremendous people may assume that there's poor working conditions because they've seen a news article or they've seen whatever, and for us, that's a important factor as we go into factories to see what the working conditions are. They have to standard? What do they do for their employees? Personally, one of the things I love to do is I just love to walk around the factory and look people dead in the eyes and just and just try to like get to know people. I love to.
[00:52:03] Tayson: You know, one of things that we did on our recent trip and you know, forgive me if we've already talked about this is we ate at the cafeteria that all the workers, eat at right and got to experience what their lunch would be. Like there would be provided by the factory. You know, just just those touch points, say a lot mean a lot and obviously we would never produce in a factory that has poor working conditions. And from what what we see and what we know they have very good working conditions. And I think that that's a big part of maybe, just it from what we see besides that is if their average sewer is there for eight years. They have the ability to go literally down the street and sew for a different company, right?
[00:52:46] Tayson: Like they're not obligated to sew with the factory forever and they would, if the conditions were bad like they have a skill set that is in demand. In these countries, they could move from Factory and sometimes they do. There is turnover that happens like that. But you know, when you've got a factory that has a much higher average in a length of time of employees 10 years, that's a lot too. As far as just who really wants to be there, is it a good working condition? You know, they have to be competitive. One of the factories we walked was a brand new Factory and so they actually had to, you know, in their minds. Invest more and do more to attract top level sewers into their Factory from where they were currently working.
[00:53:31] Tayson: So they had to, you know, kind of up some of the things such as, you know, whether it be cafeterias, breaks maternity leave paternity leave, you know, these Of things are just like they would in the United States. And so I think that's a myth to just to just touch on for a second as well. But anything else, I guess else, Brigham, in your mind regarding kind of either. Working overseas or, or even made in America?
[Editor’s note: This is a historical first-person account of factories Outdoor Vitals said it had visited, not an independent audit or a statement about current conditions.]
[00:53:58] Brigham: Yeah, I would just say yeah, don't don't assume anything asked, try to ask questions, ask the right questions because the reality is, is You can get something made in Germany. That's very high quality and you can get something made in Germany. That's very low quality. You can get something made in the US. That's all very high quality. You can also get something made in the US. That's very low-quality. Same thing, happens in Vietnam. China. India Poland, where I mean? To assume I would say. as a consumer and what I try to put into practice is I am placing limitations on my self if I make an assumption that XYZ brand can't make a good product. And likewise XYZ country is not capable of making good product. I have now placed Significant limitations on my future experiences, by by those limitations. So Like, if I say, I'm only going to shop XYZ brand.
[00:55:09] Brigham: now, I've Just excluded so many potential good experiences or good products from my life for whatever reason. You know, I'm chopping for XYZ product. Like it's the same thing with Brands products where products are made, Anybody can any any country is capable of making great product in any country is country of origin, is capable of making a poor product. So keep an open mind and ask the right questions. Don't make assumptions.
[00:55:40] Tayson: What do you, how do you ask the right questions? So I'm trying to think of if I'm in consumer mode, I am purchasing right. And I want to know these kinds of things will not all companies. Put this kind of information out, they're not going to be that transparent. They're not going to tell you about that level of detail. So let's say, I want to buy a car and, you know, I grew up in a family that hated Fords, you know what I mean. But that doesn't mean like one Ford car to the next could be drastically different because they could be coming out of different factories, but also like, One decade afford to one decade afford, could be insanely different and so on so forth, right? And so I don't know what do you I mean what are your thoughts on? Just how the heck do you learn this stuff?
[00:56:22] Tayson: What are what are key areas that those listening to this could pay attention to or areas they could go to to learn because there's really bad areas to learn and there's other ones like I I, You know, I I went on a website recently and was looking at some stuff and there was clearly some people on there that had no, they had no idea what we do and it's like with five minutes of their time. They would have had like everything that they made comments about. Would have been totally debunked, right? And so like for us, like that's something that we try to do. We try to put all this information out there so it's irrefutable that we backpack that we are, you know, like we put the time in that we do this. So we know like we try to just open the Playbook but not every company does.
[00:57:07] Tayson: And so how the heck he go about this? Let's say, if you were wanting to figure some of these things out and compare different products around.
[00:57:16] Brigham: Yeah, it is a tough one, and depending on the industry, it's it's easier and one industry versus another. And, you know, I really like the car analogy and I mean because I like my dad is kind of the same way about, I think it is for like he has this. I don't remember, maybe, I may be wrong. Call A Brand X but, like, you know, he thinks that Brand X like, is just inferior to Brand why. And, but, my dad's 72, So you're telling me that the design staff has been the same, but those companies for 50 years or 60 years, you know, like no, there are different people designing and then manufacturing those products. Turning over all the time. So how could they, how could that assumption, that Brand X Vehicles continue through generations to just be worse or inferior to Brand why?
[00:58:14] Brigham: And I think the best, I don't want to use the word best, but a really good way that I have found is to look at what look at look internally. What what do I need? And one of my basing that on hopefully experience. So what experiences have I had that have helped me to determine what I prefer or don't prefer what I like dislike what I need versus what I want and and look Inward and then try to use that base of experience to look for cues that tell me hey, that addresses a need or a problem that I have had they are telling me something that resonates with me because I am recognizing that that could solve a problem that I have had. So look at needs experience and and how a brand is telling you that they are addressing that.
[00:59:06] Brigham: So when you have that objectiveness, like who cares, what brand is telling you how? They've solved it? Look for Solution that is, that is the most attractive or appealing to you. That's, that's kind of how I have. evolved my decision-making process with all kinds of products and industries is, I don't, you know again like if it's carved man Brand X could come out with a perfect car for me. But if I have this 30 year old assumption, that All Brand X sucks like oh, they make it in this place Brand X, like I am just Excluding that potential great experience because I have made an assumption.
