[00:00:00] Tayson: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Live Ultralight Podcast. Powered by Outdoor Vitals. Today, we are going to be breaking down and upcoming event that both myself. And Darren here have in common. We're going to be well, I'm going to be rerunning the Tushars Mountain Run 70k and Darren has signed up this year for his very first Ultra and he's going to be doing the 100K event. So, we're gonna break this down, we're going to talk about kind of why we're doing this, but also what we're doing for training and just kind of giving you a very raw authentic piece of sound bite here before we
[00:00:39] Tayson: do the event. So then, you know, you guys can either laugh with us or celebrate with us on the results. And if we get the desired outcomes, so it's always easy after you finish a race or a hike, or whatever to say all that happened. How I expected it, this is this this, but if we can actually sit down and catch this beforehand, we can't go back on our word and say, no, I never said that. I never thought that or, you know, so I think it's some ways I'm looking at this like, I'm probably gonna do what I always do, which is Overestimate.
[00:01:10] Tayson: What I can do in a single day, thankfully, for me, at least I have done, Race. And so I have a little bit more of an idea, you know, how how this day is going to turn out or how bad it's gonna suck, or, you know, fill in the blanks. But there's always things that come up in the moment. So, hopefully, I don't put my foot in my mouth too much, by the time we get to the results of this and how it actually turns out.
[00:01:35] Tayson: But yeah, I thought this would be really valuable for the listeners though, to be able to just learn from learn from the way that we're approaching this. Because there's a ton of overlap whether you're a trail Runner or whether you're a Backpacker, everything I've ever learned about trail running the last two and a half years or so that I've dabbled has been directly transferable to backpacking. And a lot of ways running is kind of pushing the limits of things. So it's easy to take the limits and then tone it back, a few steps and apply it to backpacking.
[00:02:07] Tayson: And the only, Thing that it's ever done is just helped me be a better, Backpacker feel better on the trail, go to Elevation better, you know, all of those kinds of things. So, all right, Darren, I'm gonna start off with a question. For those of you don't know, maybe Darren let people know what you do around here and how long you've been around the joint?
[00:02:25] Darren: Yeah, so I'm the first Outdoor Vitals. When Tayson got Outdoor Vitals going. You know, we, we were buddies beforehand, we actually worked together and he got this. This company started, I started taking off for him and he messaged me and said, hey, I think you'd be a great fit if you want to come over and at the time, you know, it's kind of Should I use a new company? New startup and I wasn't quite sure what I was getting myself into, but we'd work together and we'd worked well together.
[00:02:54] Darren: Well, in the past, and it was it was a chance that I was willing to take that risk on and I did it and I and I don't regret it. So here I am the director of e-commerce. So anything that deals with her any Website. Upgrades web software stack ordering. Our Amazon Integrations, anything that we have going off for that. I'm kind of in charge of and kind of help manage that. So we've worked well together. I think I've been here for
[00:03:28] Tayson: I think just hit 2015.
[00:03:31] Darren: So eight years, we just barely hit that anniversary mark on that. So still going strong.
[00:03:36] Tayson: Yeah, good relationship. Relationship goals. Tolerate me. So it's good.
[00:03:42] Darren: No, it's been good.
[00:03:43] Tayson: So big question here, would be You watched me, train for, and go on this. This run last year. Obviously it was it was pretty rough for me to to get through that race last year. And I think it's probably I think it's a surprise to both of us that were both signed up for this race again. I I specifically remember, when you got done telling my wife I'm glad I didn't do that and you telling your wife.
[00:04:14] Darren: Yeah I was telling my wife that I was glad because last year I was considering doing it.
[00:04:18] Tayson: That's right. I was trying to commit to anyone to come running with me and
[00:04:20] Darren: I just like, ah, I actually ran a booth at that event and it was pouring rain the entire time. And I was like, man, this is miserable. I wasn't even running in it. I was under a canopy and I had a nice dream going underneath my feet during this entire race, like just at the event, but flat ground now. And like, man, those Runners really must be getting pummeled. And I remember afterwards, like those guys are just Getting hammered so yeah I remember you going through that.
[00:04:49] Tayson: Yeah I actually avoided the rain for the most part I like the clouds literally. I thought I was on one side of the mountain woman on the other and then they switched positions basically and I got really lucky, but I am mentally gearing up for for rain, but one thing I would say and I wonder how much this plays into the stuff we do is that we do share a love of listening to books and You know, we've we've got a few that we listen to that are motivational, I guess and kind of be like go go try some of these crazy things and it
[00:05:22] Tayson: kind of listen to stories and how much of that played into your decision or how much of, like, what drove you to try this? After seeing me do it, and just get my, my trash get that first year.
[00:05:33] Darren: So, for me, personally, yeah, we both do love listening to those motivational type books, just any online books, you know, David Goggins has a has A saying he's like I don't like to do crazy like the things I do aren't crazy to me, they're just different, you know. And so I kind of resonate with that, you know, I I'm not new to running I've been running since. Elementary School. I remember my mom waking up at 4:00 in the morning and just to be a little bit closer to her, I'd go with her you know?
[00:06:08] Darren: And it only be three to five mile runs, but I've been running my whole life. So as far as like these long Ultra runs and seeing you suffering through that last year, but still completing it was was really motivational, you know, like yeah. Initially I was like, man. I'm glad I didn't do it but then there's like some things that kind of happened. Like prior to that. So we did the The Grand Canyon Rim, Durham Durham.
[00:06:39] Darren: And I just remember thinking, man, this gonna be like one of the longest runs I've ever done in a day, and I got my trash kicked, and I've never never had that happen. Well, running and it got really personal to me. Just like, man, I've never cramped before my life, I've never had to really worry about Nutrition. I was putting in my body or like not hydrating enough, that was just not a thing and so after that I was like man I need to change something and I want to try something new that I don't know.
[00:07:11] Darren: That I can do so I have no clue if I'm gonna be able to do this race but but that's kind of my why is like I'm hopeful
[00:07:18] Tayson: yeah you said multiple times that this is going to be one and done?
[00:07:23] Darren: Yeah pretty sure.
[00:07:25] Tayson: I said it was going to be one done last year. For me. What do you think about that still? That idea,
[00:07:32] Darren: I still highly. highly agree with it, I It's so much of a Time, suck the training that goes into this type of thing. That I miss sleeping in on Saturdays. And so I I look forward to sleeping on Saturdays again. So for me right now, yes, it's still one and done, I'll continue running but not not with this much of a commitment to it.
[00:07:55] Tayson: Yeah, well then I don't know if I touched on this already but I I signed up and did the 70k last year, which is, I mean, I tracked like 45 miles but should be around 40 to 43 Darren. You didn't sign up for the 70k you signed up for the 100K which is more like 62 miles.
[00:08:13] Darren: Yeah, yeah. So that's gonna be super crazy because I haven't even signed up for more than a half marathon. As far as like official competing, I've gone further distances, But this will be the first time officially trying to go for something that far. I know that I can run marathon distances. I know that I can run 50k distances. I don't know if I can do 100K distance. So,
[00:08:36] Tayson: yes, I, yeah, yeah. Like, I mean, is there any chance that you would do another Trope? I mean, this is probably a question for after. But, you know, maybe if you just didn't do such big races that you might still do more races, you know, maybe more like Marathon level Trail Races or
[00:08:53] Darren: oh yeah, yeah
[00:08:54] Tayson: because you just stay in shape year round, you run year-round whether it be on treadmills or what are on outside but, you know, you're getting miles consistently. So, I'm just saying, you know, don't don't say never, you know, yeah, I could see you going and doing this. So that's my prediction. Is that the Darren will run another Trail race in his life, all though. He he's pretty adamant that this is one and done. So we'll see that that prediction comes true. Let's talk just a little bit. Let's get some backstory.
[00:09:21] Tayson: For those of you that don't know much about this this race and just kind of talk for a second about, it's a very difficult race. It's, you know, I've seen one of the bigger Runners out there, equate it to like a mini Hardrock, or if you talk talk Hardrock, which, you know, I don't want to say that myself. I think that hard rock is incredibly difficult, but when it comes to like the amount of vertical climbing and descending per mile, it's not much behind Hard Rock's race profile.
[00:09:52] Tayson: And for those of you that know, Hardrock is Hardrock to me is the most difficult Trail race in the United States and it's just running. Add altitude straight up and down mountains for 100 miles. Basically, what we're doing is running. Add altitude straight up and down mountains for, you know, 40 to 60 miles and so the race starts at a ski resort at 10,000 feet. And then from there, essentially, you're just going up and down at 10,000 feet or higher for the rest of the race. It does peak out going over the third. Highest mountain range is the Tushars.
[00:10:29] Tayson: So the peak there is 12,200 feet, so it does that's the top of the race. And then you just just kind of keep going up and down all around circling that Peak. It one point, you do drop down off the mountain. And I don't remember just how far you drop down, it might be 8,000 or 7,000 feet and then you basically turn around and Hike straight up the mountain. Over 3000 feet of vertical, just straight again. So you do drop to that, low elevation for half of a second in the race and then you turn around. Come straight back up the mountain.
[00:11:01] Tayson: It's incredibly difficult and and doing that. All at high altitude is is a whole nother set of challenges. Both in terms of acclimation. Both in terms of, you know, are you getting any training up at that altitude because things can change how your body might react? There's just there's whether that can roll in on those mountains in no time. And so, I know people that have DNF’d that race or didn't finish that race due to lightning or, you know, they just said, no, I'm out like this guy crazy. I'm done.
[00:11:31] Tayson: There's just all sorts of extra challenges, but yeah, starting at 10,000 feet is is just a whole nother set of challenges. The trails are rough. There's sections that are okay but there's there's a good amount of sections that are that can be rough and loose and you know, not like good. Graded trails with switchbacks at times. You pretty much climb straight up the lawn. I mean that is it would be nice if there's some switchbacks but it's just like straight up the mountain. Good, you know. A couple thousand foot climb straight up so it's it is definitely difficult.
[Editor’s note: This is a July 2023 description of a specific race course and personal experience. Confirm current course, weather, altitude, cutoff, and emergency information with the event before relying on it.]
[00:12:06] Tayson: I just wanted to give kind of that background context. To me, that does that kind of plays back into the, why, for me of like, why the heck do I do this? Because it does suck, it does suck to, to wake up at 4:00 in the morning. To go running. It sucks to feel tired. You know, after runs on a day to try to do everything, I try to do everything I can to not have it sacrifice, family time, or work time and usually what that equates to is sleep time. It's a lot. It's a lot of what you give up.
[00:12:34] Tayson: So, you know, why would you, why would I do this for me personally? I said this on in the documentary that we filmed last year of the race, and what I said, was, I think I do it because I'm not good at it. And in a lot of ways, I think it pays big dividends to be humbled at things in life and to try new things. Because you learn, you grow, you push your body, your mind at different ways. And by doing something that I know I'm not good at, wouldn't get into that later.
[00:13:07] Tayson: I know I'm not an excellent Trail Runner and I probably never will be unless I make massive lifestyle changes and choices. And even then, I Good chance. I would never just have the genetics but I think that the reason I did it was I like to do hard things. I like to push myself in new ways. I also, once I start down a trail, I usually like to feel like I finish that trail and last year at the end of that documentary, I think I said I did it and I never need to do that again in my slurred.
[00:13:41] Tayson: speech that I was I mean that's how far gone I was and Yeah, I I came back and was just like, you know what, like that was not. I didn't actually accomplish my goal. I, I don't think, you know, from the outside perspective there was there's people like are you gonna finish the race? And that was a real. I mean finishing, the race was an absolute challenging goal to be commended and accomplished. And I think for the outside perspective, a lot of people that was that was the goal and I even said that that was the goal.
[00:14:11] Tayson: But internally what what I wanted what I was you know shooting for I did not hit that goal which really was Finished feeling like I, you know, ran the race. I wanted to run the ran ran the race that I set out to run with my own goals. So, I had some other, you know, other goals like finishing in the daylight hours and I finished after dark and, you know, and just not finishing in a literal state of I mean, I was in a bad bad position like Other people probably would have been seeking Medical Aid, but I'm prejudiced. Too stubborn, right?
[00:14:46] Tayson: And so, to me, that that didn't feel like I completed it. Because to me, it was, I knew I could walk the race. Like I could just finish it if I just stayed on the course long enough kept moving like in and Oh, it was like it just it wasn't accomplishment, but it wasn't what I set out to do. So, to me, I like started on this road and now this year, it's gonna be more about going and finishing it.
[00:15:10] Tayson: It's going to be about, you know, still being able to run, you know, at least some of the sections by the end of this race since that, it just be walking in pure misery. So, yeah, for me, that's a big thing. And I, I really enjoy showing my kids, you know, that I can go and do hard things. And, and just, hopefully, you know, anyone else that I can Inspire along the way to, so, That's why I'm signed up again to do this crazy crazy thing.
[00:15:36] Tayson: You know try Runners out there probably like man it's the best thing ever and the rest of your saying yes absolutely crazy and work kind of price somewhere in the middle here but Okay, so let's talk a little bit about how the race went for me last year and then let's talk about our training, okay? And our predictions, I guess this is where we can get to. So, For me, last year the race.
[00:16:02] Tayson: I just like I said, I didn't run the race that I wanted to run and this year in training, I've gotten more insights, so I've realized that last year, we did we we did a rim to rim to rim fastpack of the Grand Canyon in May. and I got, I got more injured on that than I think I wanted to admit, My my tips and my shins essentially got really impact my calves. Really tied at some had a lot of knee pain for for a time.
[00:16:33] Tayson: And I finished that so like we did a 38 mile day on that and that's with the fast pack in a loaded up with gear water food and that really wrecked me, there's ton of elevation in that day ton of decent and then right after I got back from that, I went out to the Appalachian Trail, that 100 miles out there, and then I came back to do training in June at home, and my training was just totally derailed, all of the big runs. I was supposed to be getting out on. I couldn't I couldn't do.
[00:17:00] Tayson: And then basically my last runs in July I went and ran like a Nine Mile up and down trail that I run pretty consistently for training and I was happy because I didn't have any knee pain during the run and that was the first time I didn't have knee pain during the run. And that injury. And and so I think in my head I was like okay I'm gonna be good, you know and now this year I realized just how injured I was because last year on that run, by the time I got to Mi 10 and up to Mi 13, I was already in
[00:17:33] Tayson: excruciating pain specifically in my shins and in my lower legs, calves and stuff. And now I'm getting out on trail runs and doing 15 to 20 miles, and finishing with no pain, no, cramping, no issues, really. And so to me, you know, I've learned a lot which we'll get into but I think I also underestimated the fact that I still was injured going into that race last year, so, That's one thing that I am, I am happy about but that race last year I definitely messed up.
[00:18:03] Tayson: So I actually just pulled some, some numbers I did an after-action review and just jot it down as much as I could. From what I remembered happening in the race and so I jotted down like how much water I thought I drank between Aid stations. What I ate and I think it's fairly accurate. and I knew that I under you know, hydrated and I knew that I also under 8 but I didn't realize to what extent that actually happened and so what when I just quickly ran through things I estimate that.
[00:18:37] Tayson: I drink about 12 liters of fluid in the day, which I'll get to in a second is is not nearly enough for me specifically and that I only ate and this is the kicker that I only ate 2200 Cal the whole day whole day and That kind of shocked me because this year so much my training has been on fueling and hydration like every step of the way. Like, that's as much of the training and effort, I've put in as much as the miles I've been putting in and there's probably things I ate at 8 station, a bite here by there that I'm not tracking.
[00:19:11] Tayson: So, you know, let's just say it was 24 or 2500 though, you know, on a day like that, I'm probably burning 7500 to 10,000 calories and I only feel 25%, only replenished 25% of that rule of thumb is that you're replenishing? At least 50% of the calories you're burning. Your body is going to burn fat out there. And so, you know, the rule of thumb for runners would be that you're going to eat. If I burn 10,000 calories in that day, that I would have at least eaten 5,000. Usually, it's 5,000 calories of carbohydrate. So that was that was a real shocker.
[00:19:45] Tayson: Like, I literally just out of that up 20 minutes ago and saw that number was like That's mind-blowing, that that's all that I act. All the food. I actually got down because of how sick, I felt and, and so on and so forth. So, knowing those numbers, that was some of Anxiety wrong. I I was way dehydrated way dehydrated by the end of everything. And I I just missed my hydration marks like all the way through the race I started cramping which was probably due to the injury more than the hydration. And then I started to do some crazy things with hydrating.
[00:20:17] Tayson: I started to double down, take a ton of salt to try to stop the cramping, then all the salt made me not want to drink the water and then I quit drinking the water and it just, it just spiraled out of control to mix with all of that. You know? Then I didn't feel like eating because my stomach was not feeling good because of me trying to hydrate or taking too many salts, and it just became this this massive spiral downhill.
[00:20:42] Tayson: So this year really the goal was to, you know, obviously do the miles do the training that I needed to do, but it was all. So to master as much as I could, how much fueling I needed and to even try to train my gut to handle that.
[00:20:59] Darren: Do you remember what you were eating?
[00:21:01] Tayson: Yeah, yeah, so I mean, I was eating, I was eating things like, the liquid calories is like the number one thing. So liquid calories means a high carbohydrate drink such as super fuel, I think it's called high carb drink now by Skratch the renamed it, but it's, it's something that we do, we should have on our website, you can find it there. But it's, it's basically just a, I think it's called maltodextrin. Yeah, it's a type of carbohydrate that they put into this, and, and so it's like, seven, scoops of something you mix into water, like, that's never going to mix in it.
[00:21:37] Tayson: Eventually mix in and it's 400 calories that you're getting. and in one drink so that was the number one thing that I that I ate But then I had, you know, gummies. So, you know, Honey Stinger and Skratch gummies. I had a honey Stinger waffle, which I actually think, I that those don't do well for me. I decided that In terms of running. I swear those, those just don't go down and stay down very well, but I had a few of those. Had like half of a banana. It needs station. I couldn't even hold banana.
[00:22:10] Tayson: Oh, one thing I didn't see on here, which I did do was I had like half of a peanut butter jelly sandwich before it fell out of my hand because but yeah, I mean the bowl of what I what like where I actually got the bulk of the gallery since I think I drink three or four super fuels, which would equate to What is that 12 or 1600 calories?
[00:22:35] Darren: Yeah, something like that.
[00:22:36] Tayson: All of that. All of those calories came directly from that.
[00:22:39] Darren: Gotcha.
[00:22:40] Tayson: Yeah. Um so this year that's been a huge Focus. So basically on all these runs I'm going on, I've really been trying to focus in on that and I've done continued sweat tests. And the crazy thing is So many of my sweat tests just tell me that I didn't need to drink a liter and a half of fluid per hour. And so this is going to be. This is one of those big question marks for me. I know I drink 12 liters of water in the Grand Canyon and I left that day thinking I could have drinking more.
[00:23:12] Tayson: I know I drank 12 liters of fluid on the race last year and I was way under hydrated and according to my calculations, if I was actively running for you know say 11 hours. Well, that's 11. It's like 16 17 liters of fluid If I hating hydration marks which I've never consumed that much fluid in a day. So that's a, that's a big unknown and that sounds absolutely ridiculous. But don't don't knock that until you've run 45 miles and saw what your body really needs. Because it really doesn't need it at least for me with my sweat rate.
[00:23:48] Tayson: So this year that's one of the things I've been really trying to focus on is when I go out on runs to have if it's a run that's going to take me two hours. I will have three liters of fluid on my body and I will do everything I can to drink those. as far as the electrolyte side of things though, I've, I did a sweat test last year and it said, oh, you're losing like 1800 to 2000 milligrams of salt per liter of water and What I've found personally is, while that is true of researched some other stuff, and, and my take on it
[00:24:20] Tayson: is that if I can get about 1000 milligrams of sodium per liter of water in my drinks, and then anything that I eat, is just kind of extra on top of that. That I'm in a pretty good spot. Um, I think that over salty is going it. Really messes up, you know, gives me GI issues, gut gut issues, and then, you know, obviously under solving is going to lead to cramping. But I actually think that hydrating is more important than than just pure salt. In fact, the number one reason that I, I think salt is super important is absorption. Purposes of the fluid.
[00:24:53] Tayson: I have found 100%, I have found this, which is if I drink clear fluid, meaning nothing added to it. Flows straight through my body. Whereas, if I mix in the electrolytes, my body can absorb it. And I've been pretty phenomenal because I've really pushed my body sometimes. Sometimes I'll drink half a liter in one quick stint. While I'm running or more and just see how I feel, if it's gonna mess up my gut and if I've got good electrolyte mixes in there and whatnot, I can do that.
[00:25:24] Tayson: And my body seems to absorb it very quickly and it doesn't just mess up my gut, make me feel sick and you know, throw up or whatever. So that's been a big part of it. From the Cal side, my aim is to eat as close to 500 calories per hour as I can. So if you back up again, That would be about 5500 calories in the day. If I let's say I was running running for 11 hours and again that's like ridiculous that's like best case scenario.
[00:25:54] Tayson: But I even if I get that much and it takes me 16 hours that's that's gonna blow the doors off of what I did last year, in terms of calories consumed. So, yeah, I'm trying to consume, you know, maybe a little bit more realistically, 200 calories, an hour or excuse me, 400 calories an hour, but if I can push that up at all and stay at 500 and keep my gut in a good position, it's just gonna do me more favors than than not, right. And that's kind of that's kind of a lot, right? But I'm a bigger frame guy. I'm well over six feet.
[00:26:22] Tayson: I'm I'm you know 200 pounds. I'm not, I'm not typical Ultra Runner who can run on like 200 calories per hour and, you know, like a half a liter of water an hour, which is kind of More more quotes to what we're Darren's at now. Darren there's some big question marks for me. I'd love to ask you about because you are You're like a mountain goat out there to me. Like if I was to like if you had a spirit animal there and I would just say mountain goat you and Derek, you know, both fall into like mountain goat category, to me.
[00:26:54] Tayson: Because I've seen you do some of the most crazy things I've seen anyone do, which is one time we were hiking, it's like 2018 and we we dropped our packs. Well, Darren dropped his pack and let him chew on it for a few hours.
[00:27:10] Darren: It had to have been.
[00:27:13] Tayson: Had to have been still like six miles from the top of King's Peak. We had to forward. Snow, you know, derail getting derailed by big massive snow slides and Banks and then just miserable conditions to be hiking King's Peak in which is the highest peak in Utah at 13,500 feet. I watched you hike for most of a day, with a bottle of water in your hand, one bottle of water in your hand.
[00:27:39] Darren: Well, to be fair as one of those Old school, LifeStraw water bottles. So I could feel that up on the go.
[00:27:45] Tayson: Did you feel it up on the?
[00:27:47] Darren: Yeah, I could.
[00:27:47] Tayson: So you didn't just drink half of
[00:27:49] Darren: not on that day. I had days like that, but that was not one of them.
[00:27:54] Tayson: Okay. Yeah.
[00:27:55] Darren: Like that was just one Yeah, the other one you're talking about is on the Elk Creek mountains.
[00:28:00] Tayson: Yes. Some of the hottest desert mountains I've ever been in. I was we were actually out there. I was helping him with a hunting tag that he had, and I was sitting basically under a tarp all day long. Baking baking.
[00:28:15] Darren: I don't agree, weather all day.
[00:28:16] Tayson: Yeah, I mean, you're in the mountains still, but it's just so hot, so much of a desert, we're in a burn area. So it's an extra hot, it's dark. And I watched Darren go across the canyon and he went all day on a bottle of water. You had a Red Bull.
[00:28:32] Darren: I had a Red Bull as well,
[00:28:33] Tayson: but you drink a red one of those Red Bull. Yeah. And many Red Bull at the bottom of the canyon and then you went the rest of the day on a single bottle of water. I can tell you personally, I probably would have ended up in the, ER, trying to pull something like that. And, you know, I think you were thirsty but you were fine for all intents and purposes. You weren't, like, losing coherency or anything like that, which it. So just blows my mind, what what Darren can do.
[00:28:57] Tayson: And then throughout this whole training process, I have been grilling, you like to find out like, have you Done. Sweat test. How much water you take on your runs etc, etc. And you just, you have the ability, it seems to be able to run like 20 miles. Trail. With little to no water, and little to no food. and, so we're I mean I can't really fathom
[00:29:25] Darren: so but I can so Tayson does ask me all the time all the time like what are you drinking? How much are you tracking? It comes up all the time and You know, that's why I have done a sweat test and it is important information. That's like I found. On one of my last rounds, I was like two weeks ago doing 31 miles. That was one of the first times, like I should have brought more water. Like I
[00:29:53] Tayson: actually started with how much or you had,
[00:29:55] Darren: I had two liters,
[00:29:57] Tayson: okay. In 30 miles, and 30 miles.
[00:30:00] Darren: And my wife joined me for the last 10 of it. she's like, Do you really slow and down? And I was like, yeah, well, 20 one right now or no, it's 25. That's when she said it. Feeling well thirsty. It's like a water left and you know I like at that point when we finally got back to the car after that run I was like man I should have brought way more water. but, you know, doing some research on that, like, I've been fueling and whatnot like and I don't track as well as you like.
[00:30:34] Darren: I just know that I have a couple bag full of cashews. I have Skittles, I've got Pop-Tarts. You know, things that I'm just kind of experimenting to see what my stomach does, you know? And I ate that stuff and it definitely helped but I definitely needed to hydrate more. I had As far as like electrolytes, I brought those quick straight to mouth packets that you can just dump in your mouth and drink some water and and that helps. But I just On that one specific trip. It was running out in the desert, in the Desert Hills.
[00:31:04] Darren: There was just nowhere for me to get more water. So I I know the importance of it and I will be drinking a ton more water on this run. I think, I
[00:31:15] Tayson: think the Shocker with that for me was I like been asking over and over and over again and you've been doing a lot of like 20 miles and you were like, yeah, took a leader of water and I was, I was fine. It was fine. I felt okay after and, you know, and I just kind of keep asking and never came up and it wasn't until you pushed up to 30 miles when you were like, yeah, I kind of hit the wall finally. And to me like let's say your wall was 25 miles in these type of trail conditions and situations.
[00:31:42] Tayson: That's still just blows my mind that you can go that far before hitting the wall of both calories or hydration or either one of those, which to me is why I call him like a mountain goat because You know, goats notoriously, they don't have to drink very much water, they can live very high. I think a lot of mountain goats can can just get enough water, oftentimes through what they eat and not even really have to drink water. They're basically, you know, like like a llama is kind of the same thing and a llama is from the camel family, right?
[00:32:13] Tayson: You can, you can if you take a lawn into the High Country, which I think I'm gonna bring up a guy onto the podcast that the backpacks a lot with lawn. Let's get more info on this. But like you only have to water them like every One like every other day, maybe every third day because they're literally in the llama or excuse me, the camel family. But to me, goats goats are pretty pretty similar, and that's just kind of how I see it. Is it blows my mind because if I do that, I kid, you not.
[00:32:40] Tayson: I if I took one liter of water out, And I just had one liter of water. How far could I go? I would probably guess around 10 miles around 10 miles would be, where I would start to fill serious degradation and performance and start to get really uncomfortable with things. So This is just wild. I mean you are quite a bit lighter than me but you know, you've run your whole life and then there's just genetics too that probably playing to it. Oh,
[00:33:05] Darren: part of this is, you know, how I was raised and growing up like I was a farmer growing up, right? And we had this old swap where so cutting hay, and there's a little single caps SWAT there, and the AC didn't work. I remember one day, 100. 100 outside 120 inside the cab. And I get asthma too. So, that's another thing, you gotta keep. So if I keep the door open, I can't breathe. And if I close it, I'm dying. I win win. Yeah, I just remember all day.
[00:33:34] Darren: I was like, sweating all day and I felt like I was gonna down that but that was that was the most dehydrated I've been in my life but it's like that that kind of stuff like helped me growing up like that was just kind of normal. It's like but yeah with running and whatnot. Never Until now haven't had to focus more on hydrating but that's something I'm focused on doing better. I've done sweat tests and I found out what my body does.
[00:33:58] Tayson: What was your sweater right?
[00:34:00] Darren: So within an hour of just like a normal you know Five Mile like so I think it's seven miles in an hour and I shaved off like three and a half pounds of water and that time, So,
[00:34:15] Tayson: about a liter and a half, was really right. so like mine when I do something like that I'm usually two liters of loss so you're not like That far behind me. So that's interesting and there's there's kind of two trains of thought on this where I've heard guy by the name of Kilian. It's Jornet but he he's like the best trail runner in the world and when he was younger, he did some crazy experiments basically on himself and he's known for doing the craziest things ever like.
[00:34:46] Tayson: He went, I don't remember how many days like three or four days without drinking any water, But continuing to do Trend running and training and stuff like that before he literally passed out and collapsed. And then he was like, all right like I know my limit now and you know, and it just did some crazy and then he'll do things. He climbed Denali. So the highest peak in the United States is in Alaska Mount Denali, anyways, it it's like insane.
[00:35:14] Tayson: People go up there for weeks at a time to climb this thing waiting for whether Windows halfway up at like the base camp at 16 17,000 feet, Etc. Now, Kilian shows up with his skis and one bottle of water and does the entire mountain in a day. Goes up to 20, whatever thousand feet, it is. He's all the way up runs. All the way up and a day with one bottle of water, right? So there's like this guy who's doing some of the most bizarre things in the world and I've heard that maybe he doesn't do that anymore.
[00:35:43] Tayson: But that's what he's done in the past, right? His other school of thought of like, no, like nail your hydration, keep your body fueled, you know, doing that kind of stuff, it's just gonna do more harm than good. You know. It's very interesting and it's all I think it's all personal. I mean I don't think anyone has a 100% perfect answer but for me, I yeah, like I wanted to actually do some some low fluid training this year. I thought that would be interesting to to try to train your body.
[00:36:10] Tayson: You know, if you did mess up on an aid station and he did mess up in the field to be able to bounce back from those kinds of things. I think that that might be something you can train but I've had well-established Runners also tell me that's that's dumb, don't do it. So I ended up not doing any of that but I always wanted to. So, maybe I'll come back to the idea of A purposefully running low on fluids you know in a controlled safe environment that that will, it allow my body to to learn to adapt but at the same time I can consume
[00:36:40] Tayson: so much fluid. I'm always dehydrated.
[00:36:42] Darren: It's just funny who you listen to her, talk to you. Like if you know listen about like Courtney Dauwalter, you know, like she goes into the attitude like yeah, you know, it's gonna be okay. She doesn't. So she doesn't like put in a ton of effort into what she's putting in her body. I think she's just Skittles, you know, like and so a lot of pizza, pizza pizzas Skittles like the guy that just Aurélien Sanchez, like he had a lot of hamburgers, you know. So it's like I think the analytics are important.
[00:37:11] Darren: If I was like, I don't know, I'm kind of up the same mindset. I'm going to eat when I feel hungry and try to when I'm not hungry. it's like, and I'm going to Try to. you know, get as much water and as often as I think about it, you know, and hopefully that's every 10 minutes, I'm thinking about taking another sip, you know. Like that's kind of my Thought and yeah. So we can break it down and people can try their own things, but I don't know. I that's just kind of how I've always been.
[00:37:42] Darren: I don't know if that's a bad thing to try, but that's that's kind of mindset. I have when I go into it.
[00:37:49] Tayson: Well, I don't think it's ever not worked for you, right? So why would you have a different mindset?
[00:37:55] Darren: All right. That's for me specifically as like, I've read a lot of Articles, like Health, you know, like when you're out running and one not and you know, your body is literally taking away blood from your digestive tract to power everything else. So you eat too much and it makes you feel sick. And I've had that happen. Just from this training is like man, I've got a Pay attention to the types of food I put in because it's just gonna sit in my gut all day long. If it's just these, if I eat a sandwich out there, feel, I mean it's great for after.
[00:38:25] Darren: But during a run it's not a good mix for me. So sticking with gummies. you know, some of the more That easier digestive type foods is something I have to like practice with before the run in a couple weeks.
[Editor’s note: The fluid, sodium, calorie, pain, and training details in this conversation are personal historical accounts, not medical or nutrition guidance. Needs vary by person and conditions; seek qualified individual guidance where appropriate.]
[00:38:38] Tayson: So I'm really last year. I basically ran straight past the Aid Station, tables and went in. Just grab my own food at my own like with my own aid station this year, my goal is to not do that.
[00:38:48] Darren: Yeah, definitely try to get as much fruit as they have their, you know, bananas watermelon, just anything like that. I think would have been, you know, digest easy. It's quick, it's good and it's not just manufactured sugars, it's more natural sugars. And so that's, that's one of my personal goals is to try to actually eat at the eight stations. And, you know, if I am going to stop there. Then you know take advantage of it.
[00:39:13] Tayson: I actually went back through and pulled the stats. I was at 8 stations for an hour of the race last year. I was crazy. Which is
[00:39:22] Darren: realistic, you know, yeah,
[00:39:23] Tayson: if you I had, what is that? One, two, three, four, five, eight stations in my run. I think I'll have eight in mine
[00:39:33] Darren: for the little Longer distance.
[00:39:35] Tayson: Yeah, you'll come back to one of them twice to, you know, so So yeah, I think, I think we have the same eight stations on the mountain. You just come to them. Yeah. More often with some extra little loops and stuff. but yeah, I think that's one of my big goals is, you know, if I'm, I think the whole concept for me is if I can keep hitting my marks Then I'll feel good enough to eat things, you know.
[00:39:58] Tayson: And like there's one Was that for, I think over 20 minutes, you know, which was was a big part of that, but I was feeling so sick, so trashed. But you know, I couldn't eat the food. They had because my gut was just so messed up at that point, so, To me. to me, I think, you know, if I was to lay out my strategy for this, I, especially in the first half of the race, I'm going to do everything. I possibly can to not race to not push times to not do anything, except hit my hydration marks and my fueling marks.
[00:40:30] Tayson: Because if I can do that, then I'll be able to finish the race strong and I was losing hours of time on the second half of the race in sections versus minutes of time, right? And so I probably pushed too hard to gain minutes of time on the front end and it cost me hours of time on the back end
[00:40:48] Darren: so I can attest to that. I mean, just From going on your one trail run with you the other day. So he had a, he had a fast pace like it was Like faster than what I'm going to be doing. I know that I kept up with him but I got the end of that race. I was like, man. Like that was fast. It's like it and any uphill, like we ran it. But like, I know that on my specific race like any uphills, like I'm gonna have to just hike it.
[00:41:18] Tayson: Yeah
[00:41:18] Darren: it's like and so I think if if you went in there with that same same speed, I mean maybe that's just normal for you. Maybe you can just go that far and push it for another 20 miles after that. But I was like, man after that first 20, I would be pretty poop for the second half.
[00:41:35] Tayson: yeah, I think that's gonna have to be a really big thing, is, is that first section Really lures in. So from the start to all United States station because it doesn't on the map, it doesn't look like one of the big outliers, right? So like it's not hiking up and over to Pete it's not dropping down off the mountain and turning around and climbing back up, but it has. I want to say 2000 feet of elevation in it and It's just kind of like sneaky elevation and it really I think it really kind of lured me into push a little too hard.
[00:42:06] Tayson: The first go out and so I really just want to nail that section way better. And I think that'll pay big dividends.
[00:42:15] Darren: I'll just run your own race. Like I can imagine having everyone else's running their own race. It's just not hard not to keep up with the crowd, you know, like whatever they're doing really
[00:42:24] Tayson: is I think you've, I think if you can be as humble as you possibly can in the first section, it's going to pay big dividends in the last section and I think that's a bit of you know, having run or spoken with people who run or whatever it is like that's kind of the wisdom that comes from experience and and as much as you just study, study, study, Trail time is always the key. You know like you know if you're Backpacker and you're you're like oh you know I listen all this stuff. I train I think I can do 20 miles a day. Backpacking.
[00:42:54] Tayson: Like I promise you that the first time you go to do 20 miles a day, you will learn stuff about yourself. You will see stuff, you didn't know before. And you know you there's there's I like to the older. I get the more I like to say this that I think when I was younger, I mean, I've always loved to learn. I love to study, I learn, I learned, I learned, I learned and I probably thought that I knew a lot more than I did. And now that I'm in my my thirties, you know, I'm an old timer.
[00:43:22] Darren: Oh yeah,
[00:43:23] Tayson: I I equate it to I learned a ton of my 20s but I'm like transferring it to through experiences into wisdom in my 30s. And wisdom to me, is the application of the knowledge and and living through the application of knowledge to see what the other side result is going to be. And so, I think I like like last race I came in with a lot of knowledge, I had Books I had talked to a lot of people I've had all this knowledge but I didn't have any wisdom at zero wisdom and I'm hoping that having run this before.
[00:43:56] Tayson: I can use that to my advantage knowing myself personally because that's kind of where wisdom really matters is Is, it's, it's Gathering data, but then it's applying it to use specifically. And so, yeah, that's definitely a big thing for me is hit my hit my hydration marks. I remember specifically getting to that first aid station. And I had drink 1.5 liters of water. and, I remember pulling out the camel back that I had because I have to take that much water.
[00:44:24] Tayson: I pretty much carry almost three liters of water between Aid stations because I'm such a heavy sweater but I'm reporting out the camel back in and it was almost full and I and my heart just just plummeted, a nice and I realized just how much I messed up the hydration already in the first eight miles. You know, just right out of the out of the gate and I was like, oh no. And it wasn't very far off that when I started to kind of pay for that. So, so as far as, As far as just other aspects of training, how have you been training?
[00:44:56] Tayson: What's kind of been your strategy there?
[00:45:00] Darren: So, I can actually talk about it so I kind of do a mixture of like full body training and running. I I can get burned out with running pretty easy so I run three times a week. I'll do you know, anywhere like the first two runs in the week are more mild distance anywhere from five to ten miles. It just depends on how much time I have, and then I'll do one long run on a Saturday and that Saturday run, I've been progressively making longer until I hit my peak week, which is about a week ago. Actually probably peaked a week tour early.
[00:45:33] Darren: It's like, but that is kind of what my my plan has been. And then anytime I get any extra time to run, then I would do that. And so that was kind of where it was, it was really eye-opening. So I talked about the Grand Canyon, you know, early and my training for that was what it would been for years was just like, oh I'll run five to six miles every day.
[00:45:55] Darren: like Monday, through Friday and When you actually get into training for a long distance running like, for a marathon for Ultra runs, it's different, you know, like you hit past that five miles and you know, man this wall is hitting really quick and I felt that on the Grand Canyon. I was like I was so under prepared as soon as we hit 12 like that 12 mile Mark, I was like I'm cramping I don't know what's going on. I push way too hard. You know like that downhill just tore up my quads.
[00:46:25] Darren: So for this run my idea was to get as many miles on feet for as long as possible while comfortably and I think that's the key for ultra running is learning to run comfortably, not faster but like something that's sustainable for an all-day run and when I first started this training, I was my Pace were or way too fast. I was remember my Garmin watched, you know, would say oh, you know, seven minute mile or something like that Mile and that was kind
[00:46:55] Tayson: of consistently run fast your whole time because you'd run Just crazy fast. Treadmill miles.
[00:47:00] Darren: Yeah, I took my wife. Her name's Danny, I took her out with me and she like yelling, like you need to slow down. Oh shoot, you know, like a couple blocks right there. Like she she kind of get mad. I was like I'm trained for a marathon you know. So it's kind of contentious but then I was like, I was, I was an idiot and I was like, you know, I really gotta slow down. So now, you know, like those those really dropped, you know, where I'm lucky to hit five miles in an hour.
[00:47:25] Darren: Are, you know, so, you know, like that's putting in the elevation, you know, like they're really just slows it down and that just makes it more of a comfortable pace for me. And so, my training has kind of been built on slowing things down watching my heart rate and then increasing the mileage each week. So it's not as much of a shock to my system.
[00:47:45] Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. You also worked up to like what kind of mileage in a week? Was your peak week.
[00:47:52] Darren: So on that week. I think I hit 60 the same as a race day is like 62 miles. So it was about 31, 20, 10. That's about 61 miles for that week. So
[00:48:08] Tayson: yeah. That's that's phenomenal. That's that's typically the rule of thumb is to do as many miles in a week as you're gonna do on race day. So I know you were, you're training, plan. Kind of had it. Had you doing back-to-back, like 30 Mi days? But to me, that, that would have been yeah. If you wanted to, like, if you were in a position to just crush this race, like you know what I mean, like that to me that was almost like extreme. But I would say that hit in 62 mi in that week was is a phenomenal peak week.
[Editor’s note: This “rule of thumb” and 62-mile peak week are part of a personal July 2023 training discussion, not universal training guidance. Appropriate volume and progression vary; seek qualified individual guidance where appropriate.]
[00:48:34] Darren: Yeah like just the time consumption for those 30 plus mile days. I mean it's intense, you know, and so I'm a family guy, just like Tayson. I've got three kids and Our demanding of my time. And so I got up at three, you know? to get wasn't home until like, 8:39 and I took like six hours.
[00:48:57] Tayson: Yeah. The the really good Runners that I know that aren't professional meaning. They they don't, they have jobs, they don't have kids, you know, and I and I'm not saying you can't do both but I think that that storyline sums up my training which is maximizing as much as I can. And what I've what I did with my training is similar to Darren, I'll just leave he was training for any even longer race but what I did was I was just trying to constantly optimize constantly maximize my time running the prep time.
[00:49:34] Tayson: The you know the shot even down to like how much time it takes to shower and get back to the office or something after a run Etc. And eventually, what I what I came to the conclusion of was that I would get the most benefit for me personally, too. And what I felt like I needed doing only two runs a week, but making them bigger runs. And so I was typically doing something like an eight mile run, and then a 15 or 15 or bigger mile run towards the end of of things. My peak week didn't quite go as well as I wanted it to.
[00:50:08] Tayson: But I got up to about 30 miles and then this week has been just a super weird week where I've got a ton of work stuff going on in the next week, we head out to do 100 miles on the Colorado Trail, which isn't like the most ideal thing for training. But at the same time, I'm very hopeful that it is, the most ideal thing for training. It's very unconventional but you know, so next week, I will be doing 20 miles a day at extremely high altitudes and I'll be doing that for a week.
[00:50:32] Tayson: And then we have basically the race week, which I'll do nothing that whole week until Saturday and we'll race. And so it's a really weird position. It kind of I was just the scheduling and stuff that happened for me. But yeah, I might pick week was about 29. But the nice thing about my training this this year, I would say was that I got, you know, 15 mile run in here, 16 mile run in here, 20 mile, run in here. So I I mean last year, I just didn't get the opportunity to make those happen this week.
