[00:00:00] Tayson: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Live Ultralight Podcast powered by Outdoor Vitals. Today we have a very special guest that is going to be helping us with our mission of getting people into the backcountry in a different way. This is a very unique episode I would say compared to other guests, we've had on in the past we have Dustin Wittwer coming on Dustin is an avid Outdoorsman he grew up more of a cowboy quote unquote you know around horses all that grew up a hunter and then you know worked in archery shops and different things like that as he grew up. But Dustin and me have a very interesting conversation around the topic of llamas and goats and utilizing them to get into the backcountry and how they can be a phenomenal asset and a phenomenal tool to pack more take more, maybe take people into the back country that physically my struggle. I've considered taking llamas into the back country to bring my kids into the backcountry. There's a whole plethora of reasons why llamas and goats could be really, really cool options to consider. So we have a big long conversation about llamas, that's, I would say gonna be quite entertaining. Their, you know, llamas and goats can be Hi characters of Their Own. Out we each have kind of some some stories to tell there. Let's talk a little bit about hunting and why both of us actually are Hunters. We grew up hunting and why we continue to do that and and just some of the benefits to conservation as well. And then last, we end with talking about his side business called Backpack Logistics, which is essentially a meal planning company that allows you to pick everything, choose everything and just hit submit and then he packages it all up and have individual days for you and mails that to you. So really phenomenal service that we get into the Weeds on.
[Editor’s note: Backpack Logistics is described here as it operated around this 2023 recording. Its website, products, ordering process, and availability may have changed; verify current details directly.]
[00:01:51] Tayson: So really enjoyed this as well as you know talking about his energy. Drink him being an energy drink connoisseur and and whatnot. Just a really fun, really interesting conversation with Dustin so stay tuned to the end. I think you'll enjoy the different topics that we go through and really appreciate Dustin coming on for this interview. All right Dustin, it's good to have you on the podcast. I've listened to your podcast for quite a few years, really, enjoy your Insight on and just level of expertise on a lot of different things. So, I'm looking forward to this, but I want to start off with the classic. You are an expert and energy drinks. So you know how what do you drink? Today. And what's your recommendation for the day?
[00:02:32] Dustin: Listen. let's get this out of the way right now, the white monster is is and probably always will be the Greatest energy drink that's ever been made, in my opinion. And I can say that because I am a connoisseur of sorts. I've tried interviewed, you know, what feels like thousands? It's probably like 27, but It feels like a lot. A lot of energy drink reviews everywhere. I go. You know, it's one of those things just start making content about what you love and what you do. And I realize I'm drinking one of these babies every day and I might as well. Branch out and provide, the people, some value. So,
[00:03:15] Tayson: that's entertaining. I, I would, have to say, from falling, a little bit on Instagram that 27 would be like a low, a low Mark. I don't know. You find some of the craziest energy drinks I've ever seen and they just keep coming. I don't know where you find these like Are you let me just gas stations? Are you like specialty ordering some of these crazy ones in?
[00:03:41] Dustin: Listen at My Level you don't know, you never divulge your secrets. Um, I have people sending me. I have people sending me energy drink to this point, I've had friends come from overseas. Trips and like bring me these you know they're not they're in I can't even remember what language it was then so yeah. Anywhere and everywhere, you know, there's I I've got some hotspot dangerous. Yeah. It's like good. Backpacking spots are good, you know, hunting spots. You just you don't really talk about it, you know.
[00:04:15] Tayson: Well, I can share a quick story on that of what not to do. I was in Vietnam tours in some factories and and I swung into a gas station and I see like a Red Bull can next to another Red Bull can in this gas station and I'm looking at him, I say that once three times the price but it looks American that once a quarter of the price, you know, and so I'm like I'm just gonna snag that one. So I take it. We're driving like 10 miles in a car. Which I thought would be 10 minutes but of course it was over an hour ride in, Ho Chi Minh. And I drank this, this I'm just gonna say knock off Red Bull, and it was one of the worst decisions of my life. It backfire. I was Those sick and like the rest of the day. I didn't feel good. I was like, I don't know what the heck is in this, but it is, it was too much for me.
[00:05:07] Dustin: Yeah, there's there's a lot of those little private label, you know, you get one. And it's some, what was that one? I did. Once rooster booster, you know, some figured, you know, there you could just tell oh this is just a knockoff Red Bull or you know, whatever it is. But yeah, I I drink every day, I love it. So I just hit record and I'm sure no one listens,
[00:05:30] Tayson: but what's the last question I guess on this this topic what is what's the biggest performance benefit you get from energy drinks? I mean is it does it go farther than Just Energy like
[00:05:45] Dustin: I don't know what you're hinting at, I'm just curious, you know? Yeah. Just, I mean,
[00:05:49] Tayson: you're convincing people. They need to try energy drinks, right? Maybe they've heard their bad. Well, or maybe you're like, you know, it's just not just about energy, it's something. Hey,
[00:05:58] Dustin: we're first of all, if you really, you know, let's get into the science. With vitamins, right. Where else? Where else am I gonna get for my 4 9 0? So, there's that right Pack full of vitamins. Yeah. And then, you know, I listen I'm I'm a member of the Mormon comma Church of Jesus Christ Latter-Day Saints. And so, you know, we're most guys, would wake up and have their coffee. I have, my, my Mormon Coffee. Maybe that's what the m stands for. I don't know, right, more, Mormon Coffee, because that's legal, and so it just gives me all the benefits.
[00:06:44] Tayson: Oh yeah, a high performer. Like you. There's got to be some cognitive benefit in there too.
[00:06:49] Dustin: So yeah.
[Editor’s note: The energy-drink remarks above are personal and humorous, not health guidance. Consider caffeine content, individual tolerance, medications, and current qualified advice.]
[00:06:50] Tayson: Um, but anyhow, welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to have you. Here, you're out. Consider an expert on a handful of things that will be a step in a different direction than we typically go on this podcast but I think are really valuable and things that have been top of mind. For me, one of which is is livestock in the back country and just kind of pros and cons of different types of livestock. And what they can offer to a trip. I think archery is very interesting thing. I've grown up doing a little bit of archery but I know you're you're really an expert in that. And so whether you're, you know, into hunting which is one of your primary focuses on it or just as a is a hobby. I think there's some some fun things to impact there and then You know, just want to hear a little bit more on some of the other projects you have going on such as your food Logistics and other things. So let's dive straight into You know, backpacking with livestock, I think the, the Common Thread is, you know, your backpack with with mules and horses, but in recent years, there's just been all sorts of things people start backpacking more and more with with different types of animals and, you know, whether that be packed goats or llamas, which is kind of more of your expertise, it sounds like lately. But I, I would say personally, I've never been someone who's really looked at that as something that I'm highly interested in, but recently, I've gotten more interested in it and a lot of that has to do with coming from the perspective of bringing my kids along. So I've got a six year old boy and a four year old girl and we'll take him backpacking. But you know, you're pretty limited to a couple miles in couple miles out, and I've seen some Some others in the industry that are, you know, using llamas to get to get way in there and even have kids ride the llamas and all sorts of things like that where it just looks like. You could have a completely different in new experience in the background. So I'm happy to take this wherever we want to go. I guess starting off. Why do you use livestock? When you go backpacking and maybe that's not every time but when you do
[00:08:58] Dustin: Yeah, and that's you just you just hit it on a good, you know, topic is, is this not the first thing I'll say is they're not always the right answer. You know, it's it's hard for me, not to relate everything to a hunt, a Backcountry hunt, but even, you know, even backpacking. Like you said, if you're just doing a Quick weekend. Fishing trip, right? And it's gonna be a one or two nighter. And you're just, you're going two and a half miles, three and a half miles or something. It's it's summertime. There's probably not going to be bad weather, right? I'm probably not going to go through the rigmarole, because they just add a whole different dynamic of logistics. And and so, they're not always doing whether horses or goats or llamas, or whatever. It's it's not always the best answer. You know, take a step back, my my background. We Actually grew up. And grew up around horses, my dad and my grandpa ran. Like a guided hunting business where clients come in and and we weren't they weren't running the back country with them, but they were using horses to ride around on kind of like to like a trail ride for the day or whatever. You know that you might sign up for here outside of Cody or whatever. and so, but even before that as a kid little kid, you know, Dad was riding horses breaking horses. You know, I was falling asleep on horses as a 2 year old going on, right? It's my dad. So our, my brother and I are background, was really in in horses, and that's what we had experienced. A new Fast forward to, you know, my early 20s. and we got really serious about, not just hunting, but back backpack hunting because I, you know, I love I love hunting and we can talk about that and why and what? But I really love just being in the backcountry. Especially nowadays, unhooking from everything just connecting you know the drill. Alright getting back there and so We went down the road of, you know, we we, for years, just packed camp on our backs. And, you know, it's one thing when you're backpacking or just going on a fishing trip or whatever because The heaviest year pack is ever going to be is when you leave the trailhead, basically, right? Maybe unless you fill up with water at some point, but When you're hunting, and if you're very good eventually, you're gonna You're Gonna Knock something down and you're gonna, you know, one of the pieces of the pie—why we hunt—is to take the meat and bring it home to our families. And meat's heavy, you know, specially you know a mule deer and we can talk some of the stories and stuff but mule deer and then even like, elk is anything bigger you just almost ethically can't hunt in certain areas without using livestock of some kind because one person just can't pack, you know, an entire bull elk out or whatever from 15 miles deep. And so that led us, you know, with our background and horses, it actually turned us off originally to horses because we saw the how the sausage is made. So to speak, right? We saw all the stuff that goes into dealing with horses and that led us down the road, actually, of pack goats first of all. Okay? And so, again, early 20s, and I had done a little research talked to a few guys, And ended up with two female pack goats that were no stellar bloodlines or anything. There are a couple breeds and stuff that guys like—monster Alpine ones that are around 200 pounds. Well, they were Alpines, and they were young, so these females weren't going to get that big, but they were Alpines. You know, but then there's like, there's like meat goats and stuff that you obviously wouldn't pack with, but these are these are backpacking goats of some kind. And so I got two of these with the intention of having them bred and starting our own little pack-goat deal because, again, we can talk pack goats and what that entails. there's a whole bottle-feeding, imprinting thing you have to do with them to get them to follow you around, right? Well, in between buying those and actually pulling all that off. I'm researching more and finding out more and more about these pack llamas. And the more we read about pack llamas and learned, It's like, man. I think this is actually for us and so that led us to our first We actually rented them ourselves from a really good friend named Bo Beatty that's up in Idaho. That's, you know, kind of the modern king of pack llamas. There's there's definitely some OG's way before him ever, but he's kind of the modern guy and we rented from him, fell in love with it. And then kind of went from there and got our own and all that you kind of pick up from there with where you want to go with that. But that's kind of the origin story of of my background with pack animals horses. And we still use, I have four horses out in my field right now. We've rented llamas, the whole deal so that you kind of run with that but that's the origin story.
[00:14:41] Tayson: Did you ever actually used the pack goats then or did you kind of end up? Skipping over it?
[00:14:47] Dustin: I've never actually packed with goats. And here's here's the reason why. Well, I mean not that I'm like offended by it or anything. I'm not like not, I'm not like, you know,
[00:15:00] Dustin: anti-packing of goats, but it just never came to that. We, we didn't like a couple things. The first is imprinting with goats. They're not led on a lead rope; they literally just follow you. In order for a goat to be imprinted like that, they literally bottle-feed them. They pull them off their mom when they're two days old, at least, and milk her like they would a cow, and then the human bottle-feeds them. That gets them extremely attached to you. You do that for two, three, four weeks, or whatever it was, and now you have a goat that's tied to your hip. You do that with a whole string of them, and so then, to these goats, you're their mom, and they'll probably follow you off a cliff. That brings up its own set of issues. If you're just on a family camping trip, I don't think that's a problem. But when you're out there trying to get close to other animals and you're out stalking, some of the guys were literally taking their pack goats with them on these bow-hunting stalks, right? And I just found that a little—again, probably because I've never actually done it and seen it—but just from hearing it and knowing how to hunt and stuff, man, I don't know if I want to mess with that. Pack goats are susceptible to the weather. So summer and early fall, probably not a big deal, but once you get into late September, early October—I mean, a couple years ago down in Colorado, the first week in September, they got hit with a two-foot snowstorm up in the high country. goats they're either like you got to get them under some shelter, you know, guys are packing their own little sheds or tarps or whatever to put goats under because they can't just brave a 10-degree sideways snowstorm for very long, they'll get sick or whatever. Didn't like that. Didn't like the, you know, they just kind of they make a little more noisy, I think. And and they don't pack as much per goat. So you have to have quite a few of them, right? So never actually packed with them. Myself know, a handful of guys that are pretty hardcore them and they love them like You know, there's there's something to it because guys who have them they love them and they're they're die hard. But we We Found Love with llamas and it would be you know between llamas and goats be hard to talk me out of the llamas.
[00:17:23] Tayson: Yeah, I think I think for most people that are looking at it from the perspective of maybe backpacking. I do think goats and llamas are probably more realistic. I think horses are just a bit more of a commitment, you're talking even more Machinery, you know, bigger trailers different, you know, just different things like that. And just more space, more feed. I think some of the interesting Parts about goats would be Their maybe take up a little bit. Less space, maybe take a little bit, less food, or they eat kind of anything, right. And I don't know if llamas are the same, but so for my cost of cost perspective, they're pretty good. And then if you're backpacking, you know, maybe one or two goats does do pretty good for you versus say hunting, when you do have, you know, hundreds of pounds or 100 pounds of meat or something, you're trying to get out of the field. so, it's really interesting, I think to hear those perspectives and, and So, I'm curious. What, what in your mind then just makes llamas? So Superior? What are like the highlights of a llama? In the back country.
[00:18:27] Dustin: Yeah, yeah. And, and a couple things you touched on, I actually haven't done the weight. to feed intake ratio right goats might they might be, they might be a little bit more efficient, you know, like You know, they they just might relative the horses. I mean, llamas llamas to horses. They ingest a fourth or a fifth of what a horse eat. So it's Probably sways for llamas with the between those two goats and llamas. I'm not sure they will eat anything literally. I mean, You know the whole Tin Can, you know, kind of persona, right? Like they'll they'll they'll eat your weeds, your everything. Um, so that that could be a benefit to some people and then, yeah, they don't have a lot of acreage llamas. Here's what we loved about llamas, they are extremely low maintenance. All those things we just talked about with goats—a llama can handle any weather storm that you can throw at it. Dozens and dozens of times we've had them in the backcountry late season or whatever, and a nasty storm rolls in. Or even, you know, we can talk about renting them—we rented them for years. Clients will send us video or picture or they take him on a hunt that they're we know it's you know, October or November. They're heading into some nasty stuff. And like you could stake a llama 10 feet from underneath the pine tree and just assume that they're smart enough to go sit under it. poke your head out of the In the middle of a blizzard, and they're just out in the middle of the wide open, like, they just don't seem to care right? That there's there they come from from, You Know, Places down in South America. That, you know, they, that wool is And they can hunker down around their whole entire bottom half. Their body is just completely almost like a blanket of wool over the top of them. They are built to handle anything. You can throw out of here in the lower 48, I think. So that was one plus. Very low maintenance as far as the feed goes as well. They'll basically Munch an eat on anything up there, you know. And unless there's just Flat out. No grass, and that real high Alpine, stuff way above Tree Line, you know? Then you got to drop down a little bit, but then the big thing, the big thing with llamas is the water. They are part of the camel family, and so they can literally, and they will, they'll go two to three days. Even being worked hard, two to three days without and they'll turn their nose up to water? And that in the back country, you know? especially drought years places where, you know, because when you're hunting usually you're not just choosing your destination because you want to go there, you kind of have to be where the animals are and aren't you don't want to and so you're kind of at the mercy within reason of you know, a mile or two and some of These places High Alpine Wyoming High Country in Nevada, where we grew up, they're just flat out, no water. so, if you cross it three and a half miles ago Like, that's it, you know, and you're packing it or you might make one trip with the llamas every few days. But the fact that they can cross water drink and then not need water for three days. Huge advantage in the backcountry. Relatively low maintenance as far as you know, the the problem with horses is they take a lot of babysitting. You know, they're they're extremely big clumsy creatures if they get their foot caught in a rope or whatever, they don't think through things. Extremely well they have that Panic Gene's you know when we can talk about some of those characteristics more but they're they're very low maintenance when you go to stake them out and stuff. and then and then the, you know, the business side of it, we could You know, you talked about the training and the skill set that you have to have with horses. We can you give us a two-hour orientation with someone who has never seen heard or touched a llama in their life. And within two hours, we were completely confident, sending them down the road with three, four llamas, and they're gonna go on a week-long backpack trip and they'll be just fine for the most part, right? So yeah, they just kind of in the middle of, you know, you can't ride them but they're bigger. They can pack 80 90 pounds. Each the bit, these big Packers, but they were a little more resilient than the goats. And so, it just for being a versatile. Back Country Hunter, especially they were just super cool, super enticing.
[00:23:14] Tayson: Yeah. So you already touched on one of the questions I had, which is they can pack, you know, up to 80 90 pounds on on the best llamas, right? Which is just a ton of weight. I mean coming from an ultra light backpacking. That's so much weight. I don't know what you'd be packing into the back country, you know?
[00:23:32] Dustin: Oh that's the beauty of that's The other days. Listen, the first time, the first couple times we went with llamas because we were like you, right? Let's Whittle this down. Let's cut our toothbrushes in half like let's not even bring an extra pair of underwear for a week long. I mean we've been there right? and and you get good at that like you get really good at knowing, okay, like You know, that's, that's unnecessary all these things. Start whittling their way out of your pack food. Obviously we can talk about that but like Ultra Lite calories per ounce. What's My overall weight everything? As soon as you start packing with llamas, the first time we we started walking through the Walmart on the way to the trailhead and we're like doing the math and we're saying well we still got like 40 pounds of food that we can pack like what the heck do we even throw in here? And so we're just like, well, let's head down the mountain. Do I L and throw in? You know, that time is not. Now it is the beauty is, you know, we I've had pizza, I've had brought worst. I've had, I mean almost anything steaks, and everything you can imagine, we get some of the panniers set up with like a little soft site. At, you know, ice chest type thing. I mean, it is bougie living when you're backpacking that way.
[00:24:54] Tayson: That is luxury.
[00:24:57] Dustin: camp chairs, big, you know, relatively big cots, bigger tents—I mean, everything, you know, creature comforts, they call it.
[00:25:09] Tayson: Yeah, it's really enticing know it really really is. Let's say you're because I mean I think a lot of times you're kind of going in and setting up like a base camp and moving. Maybe not even moving every day. But if you were to just take a llama, On a backpacking Loop. Let's say where you're covering. I don't know. 40 miles going through some Wilderness and and whatnot. Like, what could a llama realistically? How much could they be walking per day? You know, maybe not fully loaded but but you know half loaded or you know, 70% loaded like are they going to want to stop walking or they going to want to Just not quit. Cover in miles at a certain point.
[00:25:53] Dustin: Llamas are just like people, right? It totally depends on how good a shape they're in. If you have a llama or two and leave them in your pasture all summer, and they've been eating fat and healthy and they're overweight and lazy, They will get Sick of you know, 70 pounds after a few miles especially if it's hot and they'll lay down on you. They'll just plop down right in the middle of the trail and and almost refused to move. You know that you can usually get them up and get them going. But you know, you start pulling stuff out of their packs so it totally depends but assuming that you've got one of these and there's there's different breeds or different pedigrees of llamas but assuming that you have a packing-bred llama—a Ccara llama, C-C-A-R-A, I think, similar to an AKC-registered dog—most of those llamas are going to be spec-wise able to handle that much weight. They need to be, you know, 40 inches. Honestly, that's probably the least important thing, how big they are, but the really genetically gifted ones are going to be in that 45- to 50-inch range. That's the magic mark with llamas, where everyone's like, oh man, this is a specimen. There aren't many 50-inch llamas at the withers, but with the right genetics, a couple of the really big boys will hit 350 to 450 pounds. Anyway, if they're in shape, and you've got all those boxes checked, like Longer than you'll like, I mean, they'll handle that 80 pounds. 15, 20 miles a day. I'm sure longer as long as you can last, they'll make it if they're in, you know, good shape. Gotcha.
[Editor’s note: Pack capacity, mileage, feed, water, weather tolerance, and handling needs vary by animal, training, route, season, and local rules. Consult an experienced provider and current land-manager guidance.]
[00:27:56] Tayson: Yeah, so I that's really enticing for sure. A while ago I was, I was out in Colorado and I was You know, it's getting to be evening time. and I'm, I'm up on this hill and I've got my brother who's Who's kind of a couple ridges over and he was, he was just walking walking a little too slow. So, I left him. And we'll meet up at night. We'll Camp right here by this, by this Lake. And I'm, I'm just watching this Big Moose down below me, right? I'm up above Tree Line. This moose is feeding down below me and I'm thinking, man, this is so cool. I'm over 10 miles in and just enjoying this and it's getting dimmer and dimmer to the point where it's getting hard to see. And all the sudden I just hear this this Roar Just this this crazy Roar and I mean I just like perked up stood up. I'm like, what the heck was that? Is there a bear right underneath me? Why is this bear this high? Why is he roaring? And I look back down and this moose is running and I'm like what the heck is chasing a moose? You know, like this is a bull moose. And this moose is just running and I'm looking, I'm looking. I'm like I'm like I know what a moose you know the noise is a moose make and that's nothing like a moose. And so I'm kind of watching the moose and I look away for a little bit and then I hear it again. And I'm like, holy frick. There's a bear right down beneath me and he's roaring. And this moose is running, I'm like this dude's chasing this freaking moose and the Moose is running like right to where my brother is going to come up over the ridge. So I hit him on the Garmin inReach and I'm like, dude, you got a moose in hot pursuit coming down the trail, I don't know what's chasing him. Like this is this is crazy. And I've got like nothing, right? I'm just backpacking. And so And I'm like, I don't want to go down below me. Because right below me is where I was gonna meet him to camp and So I'm waiting and he kind of comes Mosey, you know, over and I finally see his headlight breaching over the hill and he's coming out and he's not, he's not messaging me back, and I can see because he'll pull out his phone and I could see his face light up and he sees my message and he's just not saying anything and he gets closer and closer and finally, he gets, you know, down close enough. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna go down to meet him and just let him know what's going on. So I walked down the hill, I meet him and I'm like, dude, did you not get my messages? Like Oh no, I got your message. I'm like, well do there's, there's like a bear down here. Like, what are you doing? Coming right here. Like let's let's go find somewhere else again tonight and he's like oh no, no, I I met another hike on the trail and there's some llamas just write down here. the moose had gotten too close to the llama camp and they'd roared at him and just it's the most Spine-chilling noise. I think I've ever heard and I'd never heard it before
[00:30:38] Dustin: you're talking like the velociraptor screech thing.
[00:30:43] Tayson: I don't know what it was. It was unlike anything else I've ever heard and the closest thing I could think of was some kind of a roaring noise.
[00:30:49] Dustin: Yeah.
[00:30:50] Tayson: And yeah. So I was like, what the heck, you know? It terrified me. I was up there for, you know, like 40 minutes in the dark just thinking like, Where the heck? Am I gonna camp? Like I'm not going down there and it just. But anyways that to me was actually a really cool aspect of llamas as well as that. They're they're protectors, right?
[00:31:10] Dustin: Yeah. I mean in general, if you ever drive by like a farmer's field or something around town or outside the town or whatever and maybe they have a bunch of sheep or goats or something out there, and there's a random llama out in the middle. Because they're they're very protective, they're very relatively aggressive towards, you know predators and coyotes and stuff like that. So aside from, you know, a grizzly or maybe a black bear actually defending against them, like they'll—you know, any local stray dog or coyote or, you know, probably a bobcat or something like that. They're gonna They're not, you know, that. I've again, we've had them around our dogs and stuff all the time and they're not, they don't get aggressive with our dogs because they're not, you know, they they know that they don't mean harm but they also square up with them real, real quick when, you know, they're out in the past or whatever, and they don't back down; they're coming at them. And if you know they get too close or too offended they'll they get aggressive, you know from front. Pattern or whatever, or front of ya that. So, that warning bark the first time, you hear it. I mean, imagine that story but imagine me being the guy literally, holding the lead of the llama because we didn't really know about that. And same deal, we were in Utah with them and a bear up on the ridge, and just all of a sudden, right, and this llama just right in my ear and I was like about dropped the lead rope and freaked out. Same bill, And so, at first, it kind of, It kind of freaked us out but then after, you know, a few times of that we realized especially at night in Bear Country, it became a little security, blanket alarm, right? Like, you pretty much sleep in your tent and have, if you've got three, four, llamas stayed around you in a circle. I mean, Nothing, you know, not that you might not lose a llama or something, but you're gonna, you're gonna know about it. Well before that bear ever gets to your tent for sure.
[00:33:14] Tayson: Alright. Alright, so if I would say if you're someone who, you know, gets a little nervous, maybe Bear Country, something like that. I think llamas could be another, it's another benefit of having a llama, right? So let's, let's talk for just a second about what you and your brother do with renting llamas. What does that look like? If someone was like, you know, I'm interested in trying this out or I'm I've always wanted to go backpack into this this Wilderness, and it's just too too daunting for me physically, or I want to take someone with me that that's not a Backpacker. And I want to make it a good time for them, you know, there's guys in the limit on on reasons why you'd want a llama for back country. But what's a, what does it entail to rent a llama? What kind of you know maybe maybe some rough rough pricing is too would be interesting. Yeah,
[00:33:59] Dustin: yeah, um, yeah. So you know first thing don't don't be scared. It's like I said you're gonna you know any any reputable Packer that's or that's renting. Oh let me
[00:34:12] Tayson: I'm gonna cut you off for one second. Should we have a fear of getting spit on by a llama? Isn't that—that's a thing, right?
[00:34:19] Dustin: I was waiting for that. It's the number one question with renting or using llamas. Here's the deal: llamas, 100% spit. They will spit up a storm. Usually at each other and it's almost always almost always overfeed or proximity to another llama, right? It's kind of like, how, you know your dogs, if you have a few of them or something, they get around a different dog. They'll kind of nip at each other or bite, right? But they're not. Then the dog's not gonna bite you unless you do something stupid or whatever. And llamas are kind of the same. I've had, in all our years with dozens and dozens and dozens of llamas. I would say one maybe two that were like ornery enough, that they would spit at you coming into the into the Corral, or the pain or whatever to put a lead on them because the other thing about llamas that people hate because You know, they're they've got this Persona on Instagram or whatever just being like like they're almost instant famous, right? All these kids and girls and whatever these kids, they love llamas. and they did, you just want to, you just want to give him a big bear hug and pet him and they hate it. They don't allows they'll allow touching and certain spots like on their neck, right? Or or on maybe on their on their Withers, on their back a little bit. but like, Face. No go like 99% of llamas. Do not allow you to touch their face or anywhere near their head. Their feet and their legs extreme No-No. And we can talk about kind of why that is, I think but so, so They're, they're by Nature. They're kind of like ornery cats, right? They just would prefer not to be touched once you get, you know, when they're trained and you kind of get them like If I had them loose in my four, acre pasture in the back, they're gonna give me the runaround most of them. And so you kind of like to get a lead on them, get the halter on him, right? So you know, it's it's a situation where you kind of, you know, you hoax them in with some pellets or feed or something, some little treat that you have to get them into a small. And then once they're in a, you know, a 20 by 20 little Corral or something. They, they usually will give up. And you know, if they've been haltered before, you know it's it's usually the fight over at that point. Obviously, if they're still fresh or wild you got a rodeo on your hands. But anyways, so yes, they spit usually rarely at you personally. Yeah, just but, but yeah, I mean can't say you'll never get spit on rent, llamas or using llamas.
[00:37:04] Tayson: I had to throw that one in there. Yeah. All right. Back to the original question of, you know, if someone wants to look at renting llamas from you, so you, I mean, you have a company called Backcountry Logistics.
[00:37:15] Dustin: yeah,
[00:37:15] Tayson: I don't know if it's your brother's company or yours but
[00:37:18] Dustin: you know, it's it's between my brother and my dad and I And it'll get a little confusing because we're we're so original that we had Backcountry Logistics for the llamas and then we made backpack logistics for the food. So I actually was looking for
[00:37:33] Tayson: Backpack Logistics right before he hopped on and I was like, that is the name of that because I typed in Backcountry Logistics first and then I was like now, what was the? But now I got it. I'll keep it straight.
[00:37:43] Dustin: Yeah, yeah. But anyway, so what to look for as long as you know, first of all, find a reputable, you know there six seven week. We've been doing this. Geez. How long is it been? Now probably pushing 10 years, total, eight or nine at least. And when we even when we started there was almost no one you know Bo and handful of others that were renting them. In the last five years, of the ones I'm aware of, there are probably double the number of packers at least making themselves known on Instagram and stuff. So there's there's more options that usually means that, you know, there's going to be some I don't know, you know, I don't want to call them wannabes but just ones that are just kind of make it quick little deal or not taking it super serious. So, you know, just just make sure you've got someone that's reputable, you know, just like anything, right? Get some references. Maybe and then after that, I mean, you know, I can't remember the exact question but I mean, Again, ask, you know. How many llamas do you need? Right. Is is a another question, you're going to get asked and, and you can do the math: 60 to 80 pounds per llama. Then kind of do the math based on how many people are going. If it's just a backpack, you know, Excursion. And there's no hunting involved, or packing, anything heavy after the fact, and you just want to live real nice. I mean, Even one llama for every two people. You know, you can imagine right? An extra 40 pounds. That's like doubling your pack for the entire trip, right? I mean it. That that will, that will change a lot for everyone. You know, one llama per person, you're gonna be living like kings on. Just a normal backpack trip. So yeah, make sure that You know, make sure that you're getting that orientation, right? If they're just if they're running. So rampant or so busy in the Summers and stuff that they're like, yeah. Hey you know, we're gonna do that but it just, you know, if you dealt with and you know, if they're just trying to get Like make sure especially obviously, if you're new, they shouldn't be giving you hand in. You, you know, llamas without an orientation. You know, couple hours is what we used to do. I mean, just, you know, obvious stuff, maybe like you know, hey you know, let me you know, can we see pictures of the the gear that you're using, you know, maybe there's getting started and they got you know, rickety packs and saddles Pack equipment for llamas is almost more expensive than a horse saddle, right? It's crazy. These new, nice setups are around a thousand bucks to deck a llama out, for the saddle tree and the two panniers. So, you know, just, you know, hey, show me the gear, I'll be using ahead of time or whatever. If, you know, if you're if you're really searching out honestly the thing that's going to constrain you the most is just proximity and and location because you know, it's something that even if bows and Idaho and he's, you know, a great guy to rent from You know, if you live down in Arizona and you're going to go backpack the Gila in New Mexico, like you ain't gonna drive Idaho to get your llamas, right? So,
[00:41:13] Tayson: Yeah.
[00:41:13] Dustin: Proximity is going to be the first thing. You know, there's maybe one to three in your, you know, 500 mile radius that you're willing to go and that's where you're going to start. So,
[00:41:24] Tayson: Sure. I mean it's well as far as like, transporting the llamas. What does that look like? Are you, are you driving them to Trails or people hooking up to a trailer and and or like, what does that look like?
[00:41:34] Dustin: So Far as we understood and, and all all back up a little bit, we actually don't rent them anymore. That's how we started our business and how we grew it. It's what we used to get ourselves off the ground, and for five or six years there, we rented llamas. We basically reinvested every penny of that. And more back into into female's. And so we've stacked up, you know, one point we've whittled it down a little bit but we probably have 20-something of some of the best genetic-bloodline, well-built females that you can find, and we've transitioned to more of a breeding operation—a cow-calf deal. We either sell them as weanlings and people take them, That's another thing to talk about is kind of the You know, the life. you know, the the amount of time it takes to get a llama to maturation to pack but will sell them as weanlings or we might keep them for two, three years until they're ready to pack and train them ourselves and then you know, kind of sell them that way and we can talk prices and all that, but so we left that and kind of the rental side and went to that, but when we were doing it, as far as we understood, the business legality of it was that because we didn't technically have a guide license, we couldn't deliver, show up, or take them anywhere. People had to come pick them up at our business location, and then it was out of our hands. Otherwise, we were in breach of our jurisdiction, or whatever you want to call it. That doesn't mean someone else doesn't have the local guide license or outfitter license and has worked it out so they can meet you at a trailhead. I don't know. But as far as we know, 99% of the time, they were going to have to pick him up at our location and we would rent a trailer. you know and and so as long as they had a something to pull it with or whatever you know you you can and you probably seen people all along as with Everything, right? I mean, I've seen people shoving a llama into an Astro van. I've seen people put in, you know, they load them in the back of their truck, right? With like just kind of a cattle rack in the back. And, and the nice thing about llamas when they travel, they almost always just plop down where they're at. So you know, riding him in a van is really not that crazy. Once they get in there they just sit down. They just lay down on themselves anyway. So it just, your Packer, your rental guy will totally, he'll say, Hey, you either have to have this trailer, we got to the point where we would make them send us pictures of their trailer, because you can imagine what people would try to show up with these. I mean, anyway, just, you know, be smart. And, you know, if you're putting the llamas life at danger, just rent, you know, spend the extra 50, 100 bucks a day to rent a trailer, but most most rental operations will have something you can rent. Yeah we talked prices
[00:44:46] Tayson: yeah right as far as pricing. What's just like a quick estimate on you know like a three- or four-day trip
[00:44:52] Dustin: man. I you know and it's funny asset because I can't even I think off the top of my head, Two. Llamas, two llamas. Per day. Were probably about 100 bucks each. I want to say. So let's say you're going on a five-day trip, two llamas and let's say you're renting a trailer, another 50. 50 bucks a day. Probably I mean you might be two llamas, $500 to $1,000. I mean you would probably be $1,500. Maybe with the trailer rental on the low end. and maybe more now because again, it's, it's become extremely popular in the even in the last five years since we gotten out of More and more and more people trying to do it. That's why there's all these Packers rental operations popping up. So, you know, $1,000 to $2,000, depending, you know, on an average backpacking trip, a three- to seven-day trip, kind of how long you're going, probably per you know, two llamas, I would guess.
[Editor’s note: The rental practices and rough prices above describe Dustin’s historical experience before this 2023 recording. Verify current providers, licensing, transport, equipment, welfare requirements, and prices directly.]
[00:46:00] Tayson: You pretty interesting. Do you have any Prime? This might be my last question just on the Llama front, but have you ever, you know, had kids ride llamas or know much about that side of things if you're going to utilize llamas for helping kids get in and out of the backcountry?
[00:46:17] Dustin: Just our little nieces and nephews and stuff that we had over the years—they would plop down on them. I've seen modified little pack saddles, saddles that would go on a llama for that, so it definitely exists. We never had any of that, you know, and just within reason, you know a 60- or 70-pound kid that you know knows what they're doing is comfortable. I mean again you just you what you can't expect is you can't expect to just say, hey we're gonna rent llamas and I have this 50 pound kid that's you know, whatever age that is. And and then assume that you're going to show up and use the little saddle box that they give you for a pannier and you're just gonna get on there because they're, you know, they're like the little crisscross metal thing and it's not how it works. So you would if you're renting them for sure, you want to verbalize that. See if they have a specific saddle or something, and what their rules and regulations are. But yeah it's I've seen it for sure. People, people do it all done. You know. Yeah, I've seen it with goats. A buddy over in the Bighorns has a couple goats. They modified a little pack saddle for a goat, and they're packing half the weight. So I'm guessing that kid was You know, 35 40 pounds, maybe that they have some big, you know, almost 200 pound goat. So they they handle 40 50 pounds, no problem. But they had a little modified saddle. So,
[Editor’s note: Riding or loading an animal requires provider-specific equipment, limits, supervision, and welfare judgment. Do not infer a safe child or load limit from this historical conversation.]
[00:47:43] Tayson: Yeah, yeah, if my kids 35 pounds, that's about two years old. I got some big boned kids, man, they're Growers. Okay, no, I think that's that's all super, super interesting. So I I appreciate it. I I know we probably don't have enough time to get into archery today but maybe maybe I'll just give you a second to To talk a little bit again just because you are kind of the first hunter that I've brought on the podcast. I've mentioned, you know, multiple times myself. I'm a sportsman, our product designer, there's quite a few of us around the office that do hunt. Grew up hunting but maybe just just give you a chance to kind of talk about what it is. You love about hunting. You know, the disconnect, the Or any aspect of it that they keeps you going back to to do. Cool Adventures, like you do.
[00:48:33] Dustin: First, first of all, I'll just reiterate. I appreciate and and value the opportunity to sit down in front of her on a podcast with an audience of people who don't, or haven't, or probably don't hunt, right? Because You know, it's it's a very fragile. We understand how fragile hunting is and we appreciate and value the the middle 80% right of the of the US population or whatever the world population, probably that doesn't hunt, but is okay with it. And so, you know, I and I just realized, like I have a I had literally have an elk head over my left shoulder. I didn't even realize that until now. But but anyway, I appreciate that and and I'll try to present this in a way that you know, again you don't need to get into hunting but maybe you'd just be okay with it and understand it from a hunter's perspective. So um, yeah. What what even was the exact question, just how I got?
[00:49:43] Tayson: Yeah. Like what keeps you going back? Like why do you continue to hunt? What do you get out of it? What do you love about it? Yeah.
[00:49:50] Dustin: Yeah, there's a lot there's a lot man. That's the beauty of it right is. Um you know, it's not I would be lying if I said that I just hunted for the meat. Right. That's kind of the cop-out answer. Especially when you're talking to people who don't hunt or aren't hunters. And, and we always like to just throw in, oh, I just hunt for the meat. Well, yes, I I take home everything that I kill, and my family eats it, no different than, you know, you going and, and eating in and out burger, or going to Walmart, and grab in your chicken for the day or whatever. Right. So yes, that is. It is an absolute every single time. Unless it some, you know, coyote weird Critter that you're not gonna eat, right? And there's there's legal game laws usually on what you have to and don't have to. And, and trust me, 99.9% of hunters err on the side of packing their bear meat and their lion meat out and consuming it, right? And so they're its It's a it's that's one piece. The pie is providing for my family. It's generational, I mean, just in my recent generation, my recent ancestry like my great grandpa, my grandpa, my dad, we all hunted, you know, for various all these various reasons but it's something that's been passed down from generation to generation to generation. I mentioned earlier the back country, right? It takes me to places that I would never have gone if I wasn't hunting and I would never experience, you know, you mentioned the moose and the llama like just those experiences, right? And I could rattle off, you know, things walking right up to me, things walking by me things scaring the crap out of me or, you know, views that I get to see in the early morning. The late night finding myself, right? Scaring the living crap out of myself and and becoming a better person. And all of the things, obviously, the, the physical aspect of it, it keeps me, you know, from drinking two monsters a day and just one. So I don't get too. Fat, right? Because that, you know, I watch what I eat a little bit so that I can get around back there. So it's, you know, you really can't Point to something that's not, you know, overall good the absolute challenge, right? The longer You know, hunting means different things for different people at different times in their life or in their progression of hunting. For example, when I first started hunting, as a kid 12 year old, I'll be honest. Like it was just the thrill of the thrill of being out there and killing something. Like, you know, that's it's not the thrill I guess. But just it changes you, right? When you have to, when you have to end the life of the thing that you're going to consume. That's that's is it come to Jesus moment with yourself and and, you know, it changes you and but but you, you know, as a new Hunter you, I don't want to see you look forward to that, but it's an experience that you you never forget. I was doing it to to try and impress my dad, right? How big of the, you know, how old of a buck or how big of a trophy can you get right? That's, you know and and and all, you know, all these things, as I was younger, have not laughed or whatever, but they just change over the years now, you know, if it was just about the kill. I've done this enough times and killed enough things that like I could go out every single year with every single tag I have probably and shoot something legal and bring it home, right? But I've had just in the last three years. I've had just mule deer. I've had at least six or seven Mule Deer tags in various States. Right? Because you know there's different ways and all these things that you get taxed. I've Had seven Mule Deer tags in various States, you know, some most years, two or three, and not, and I've only killed one animal on those seven permits, that allowed me to kill something. It's not because I didn't see deer. It's not because I'm not good enough to make the shot, or that I missed. It's because I've morphed from the 12-year-old who was just looking to shoot the first legal thing because I had anxiety about not being successful and all these things, to, like, I'm after the most mature, the oldest, the biggest-scoring buck for various reasons, right? One, I think grown men and grown women who have hunted enough just owe it to themselves to keep trying to be a little bit better than just shooting the easiest thing that they can find. You know, conservation of it, right? If if you go out and just shoot the young ones every year, it's not beneficial for the herd, right? We don't need to go too far into that, but when you go ahead and kill the oldest, you know, let's say a mule deer's lifespan is 10 years, and I'm targeting deer that are in that last half of their life: six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Even, you know, the older, they get, they're really not the top breeders. The three, four, five year old bucks are the strongest. Biggest baddest dudes when it comes to breeding season and they're the ones that are going to go pass their genes around. But the problem is those seven, eight, nine year olds. They still get in the mix of things and they cause problems, right? This is a big one with bears, okay? People who don't hunt and are anti-hunting, specifically, they rip apart bear hunting specifically and predators in general, but bear specifically because a few reasons they've they've grown up with Disney, right? And bears are, they're blue, the Bear, right? It's this cuddly, you know, back the piggy Bear, right? Well, Winnie the Pooh. But, you know,
[00:56:10] Tayson: oh, Yogi
[00:56:11] Dustin: or Yogi and booby, right? And so, that's what we grew up with. And so, you know, to, to most non-hunters deer and elk hunting makes sense, right? Because that's like a cow and you, you know, a chicken, you go get your protein bears, are a little different, I won't get into whether people always eat the bear meat or not, but we're going regardless, excuse me, regardless. It's a, it's a different feeling for people, right? Well, here's the nasty truth about bears. The older bears, which is what 98% of most adult hunters target, are an absolute problem. What they do is go find a sow that had cubs last year. It could even be their own offspring, they literally don't care because they're selfish and they're the animal world. And they'll find that year year and a half old Cub that they can absolutely dominate to the point of killing it. And guess what? They do. They rip it apart on the spot as soon as they see it and they kill it because it puts that sow instantly, she goes back into heat. And so he gets what he wants. He literally doesn't care about the life of that other younger bear. And so those are the Bears. People are targeting and it's the same with the mule deer and Elk or whatever guys. You know, again, youth will go out and shoot a lot of younger deer, whatever. But as we mature as Hunters, we should be targeting in my opinion, the older age class year because deer and elk and bears and whatever because It's not a great ecosystem. And when they're not controlled a little bit, they're their own detriment to their own, their own species, a little bit, right? So, Anyway, I hunt for the challenge of finding. That biggest baddest oldest Sneakiest deer. That's, you know, 10 years old and living in some freaking nook and cranny that you've never even been to. And you don't want to drop down in this nasty Canyon and he's passed his breeding age. He's his antlers, are probably regressing a little bit because he's so old and like he's not getting the nutrients; he's probably not going to survive the next bad winter anyway. And so it's like it's this perfect storm of like he might as well go to sustenance for myself and my family and it checks off all the boxes, right? And so anyway, a ton of reasons that I hunt or that other people hunt and they're almost all extremely pure and extremely good motives and I now I hate killing things. Jason, I don't like it. I don't get the same again, it's not a thrill but it's there's definitely excitement and your blood pressure goes up and you know when you're little right when you're young and that's it gets everybody reacts different little kids cry. A lot of times because they don't know how to feel and stuff. I don't like it anymore right when I was a little kid I used to go out. And shoot every Jackrabbit, but I could find and, you know, you might shoot squirrels out of your trees in your backyard or birds or sparrows. When I was really little, I don't do that anymore, I have way more respect for that and hopefully, as you know, people go through the progression. They do too. It's not a fun part of it but I understand the necessity because, again, no different than the beef that you grilled over Fourth of July, or the burgers, or the chicken, or anything that we use for protein and sustenance. Somebody pulled the trigger. And if you're if it wasn't you and you're in the restaurant you're just killing it with your checkbook, right? It's no different. But I, and I think that everyone should have to go through that once in their life if they're going to eat meat.
[00:59:51] Tayson: Yeah. It brings a different respect to the meat that you that you have, right? I mean just to feed off of a few things. Said, I I don't throw away any meat, right? Like it's we live in such a time of Plenty, right? That you're always throwing away food, right?
