[00:00:00] Tayson: Hey everybody, Welcome to the live ultralight podcast. Powered by outdoor vitals. Today, on this episode, we have one of the crowd favorite styles of episode, which is a product Deep dive on a brand new released product. So of course we've got Brigham here, which is also a crowd favorite. We've learned at PCT. Trailblaze all two people majority there was there's at least two crowd of two, you know that that very specifically said they loved hearing Brigham on the podcast. So he's on the hook forever. Now he's not getting away from the mic but breaking ours are is our product designer here. So he's been working on this and we're excited. If you're new to the podcast, again this is the Live Ultralight Podcast. We typically are sharing content, interviewing people or just going through our own trips to help you build confidence in your own backpacking setup so that you got more consistently. Go Crush some big miles check that bucket list hike off of your list. And so you guys learned something from this.
[00:00:59] Tayson: In fact, I know that you will because as you get into the technical aspects of a pack specifically a pack like this, you learn, and then can apply that back to whatever it is that you're doing. So, even if you're not crazy interested in fastpacking, which I'm gonna raise my hand, I used to not be crazy interested in fastpacking. Just a few years ago, I would be probably sitting on the fence of the sounds like a crazy sport. A crazy idea to now, being someone who sees it, as an awesome tool and awesome method of seeing the backcountry and something that is really empowering to go and do trips that maybe you wouldn't think would be possible. Otherwise, in fact, One of the trips that I'm thinking of right now, Brigham. Is I was just talking again to someone about the Wonderland Trail. The Wonderland Trail is a trail up in the Pacific Northwest that goes around Mount.
[00:01:49] Tayson: Hood Rainier right here and It's like 90 something miles, almost 100 miles, and the hardest part about it is permitting. if you can do it in two nights, You don't need permitting and I've confirmed that with a couple people now. And so, that means if you have the ability to do 30 plus miles a day, you don't have to worry about the permitting. You can go do that hike and you don't have to have, you know, jump through these hoops, per se to go and have the opportunity to do that. So that's one of those instances where fastpacking can can really Empower you and offer you up a really cool tool. So, with that being said, let's jump into the backstory and then we're going to get into the Nitty Gritty of Designing. This product testing this product and the end result of all of that, which is now available.
[Editor’s note: This 2023 Wonderland Trail permitting statement was not independently verified and should not be used for trip planning. Check current Mount Rainier National Park and Wonderland Trail permit rules directly before travel.]
[00:02:36] Tayson: So if you want to check out the skyline fastpack and all of its details, you can get Link in the show description of this or head over to outdoorvitals.mom. It is releasing at the same time as this podcast, so check that out. Okay, we've talked about this Skyline Fastpack a lot. We're just saying this before we turned the Mike's hot here. It feels all you mentioned that it almost feels like we've already done this podcast, but we haven't really what it is. Is just we've been developing this product for a long time and people have seen it in development for a long time through our YouTube channel. And so we've just touched on it, like, little tiny, you know, surface level stuff over and over and over again. So it doesn't feel like this new release like pulling back the veil, but at the same time, it is because we've really released no information on it.
[00:03:26] Tayson: So with that in mind, let's we are going to do a little bit of like going all the way back. I think that's still valuable and and then we'll we'll go from there. So, Brigham. How do you remember us getting interested in fastpacking?
[00:03:44] Brigham: Well. I'm going to be a little fuzzy on, like, Every single thing, I mean, I remember, for example, just even coming across videos of people doing so fast packing trips that were really intriguing. I think that was kind of part of it because I guess what's intriguing is like one of the reasons we love to go backpacking, is to get into really wild places and get really deep into the back country and and experience. The Wilderness, right? And and so, I think that was part of that entry was that some of these videos that that we were, maybe watching was Kind of showing that in a new way. And so there's a there's there's like something we could relate to even though we didn't do the fast packing thing. There was this overlap in so many aspects of what we were learning about fastpacking versus kind of ultralight backpacking. So, I think that was really intriguing seeing the, I guess crossover or overlap between the two because they're so similar.
[00:04:50] Brigham: And in many ways they're the same but There's some new elements that are just really intriguing, I think that was part of it, and then I think there's a lot of it made a lot of sense, in terms of, maybe kind of a new type of product for us to look into, or investigate, possibly developing because again of that like overlap in the similarity to to backpacking, but just with some new elements like we've done that with the like our travel pack. You know, with kind of one bag minimalist travel. There's a lot of similarity to the mentality and the process of backpacking. And so, Um yeah I guess that was that was one of I think that one of the things. Yeah,
[00:05:37] Tayson: I think that was like, the spark of it. All was was just starting to see this new style and then from there, you know, I supposed to do very pretty specifically, remember bringing Jeff Pelletier on the podcast, who is a known fastpackher, and we just drilled him with questions and were sponges. And I think both of us left that conversation, feeling pretty committed. To take a shot for ourselves because he kind of sold the Dream. Well enough of like, yeah, why what it empowers you to do. And it, I think it really spoke to us as, you know, as Career guys and and having kids at home and things like that, it was like whoa this opens up more opportunities and New Opportunities. And so we got pretty committed from there and I kind of remember that being a Tipping Point for me to go all in because the sides just kind of seeing it a little bit. Pop up here, pop up there being kind of like what is this fastpacking thing.
[00:06:28] Tayson: You know, we got pretty committed and I was if I'm remembering my dates, right? That would have been the spring of 2021.
[00:06:37] Brigham: Like really early, maybe even February ish. kind of when we started having the conversations at least, because I guess. Behind the scenes and behind closed doors, like in product development. Conversation is a huge. Yeah, it's a huge part of it. I mean, you discuss The feasibility. I mean people call it a feasibility study, but that's like for us. A lot of that is conversation and we base it on experience and people we trust and and there's just a lot of like verbal kind of triage and kind of brainstorming goes on. So I think those conversations started probably. Yeah, late winter of 21.
[00:07:17] Tayson: so, I would say from the time we fully committed, though, this is been a two and a half year at least development process from the time. Like, we were like we're doing it, you know what I mean? Yeah, which is a, which is how I don't know if that's art. It's not our longest, I would say to him but it's it's a it's on the longer end. Like this is been quite the journey So from there, we started to just gather as much information, as we could, we started to spend a significant amount of time, running ourselves, training ourselves, and really getting in a position to be able to go and execute a great fastpack. We spent our style a bunch of time and resources learning everything that was in the market. What people value, you know, Went to show. I mean we even went to shows asked, you know, Runners with the understood fastpack and what they thought of it.
[00:08:08] Tayson: You know we got all these points of feedback ourselves and and through that and then later that year in 2021, We started fastpacking ourselves, right? So went and did a 60-something mile two night endeavor. Which is really awesome did a whole mountain range that was your local to us. Still. I got really, I got like altitude sicknesses, really? My my biggest and I'm yeah, it was, it was my most intense altitude sickness that I've had, but I still love the trip. He's not like not eating for a day and a half full trying to move. It was just one of those trips though. Like it it's been really cool. And all of us have noted this in the office ever since every time we drive past that mountain range on the freeway that kind of borders it.
[00:08:53] Tayson: It's cool to be like man I've run from one end of that to the other from one highway to the other, you know, the long way through that mountain range up over the top on the skyline Trail. And it was it was a really just just awesome experience and I think it he just off to to continue to look for opportunities for fastpacking in particular. From there. I mean, we started we started doing some pretty fun testing. So part of part of this, I mean, I'm gonna guess you have no idea how many prototypes we've done.
[00:09:27] Brigham: I haven't counted but there I mean there's a stack of them. Yeah
[00:09:30] Tayson: there's a whole bin full of these. Yeah, someone was just bringing up the other day, like some of the older stuff that we did that. We were testing different kinds of harnesses and I'm like man, I had even completely forgot that we had done, you know, that that idea and tried this idea and and all these different things, but we really set out to solve a couple problems. You know, with fastpacking we felt like there's a few critical pieces to it. That would make a backpack, really Empower you on a trip and set of takeaway from it. Alright, number one to us, I don't, I correct me if I'm wrong, what the priority is, or if we've ever set an established priority but critical for us, one of them, those points would be that the That the backpack itself feels more like it's it's a painted on fit, it feels more like a nice shirt. That's got a lot of connection, a lot of solid points on you.
[00:10:25] Tayson: There's, there's not big gaps and and what that and with that would be the ability for the backpack to not bounce on your body as you run, not create excessive movement which that's going to create heat which then it's going to create chafing. And so we wanted this just this really Not tight fit. But like clothes, fitting, anatomically fitting pack that's going to reduce the amount of Bounce. So that was one of our critical points that we set out to do another of our critical points would be the pocketing, right? So there was all sorts of options and ways to do pocketing. But really, when it came down to fast packing, we found and through, you know, external conversations as well, that really being able to stay on the move as much as possible, as key with fastpacking. And, and so, like having the right pocketing to allow you to, just continue to move as much as possible, without taking the pack on, and off throughout the day, was another high priority for us.
[00:11:29] Tayson: Like there's a third one. I'm going to go blank break them.
[00:11:34] Brigham: Or is there any other funny? I mean, yeah, I think a lot of the stability things, they are just as much connected to comfort. Yeah, accessibility I think was what the pocketing. That's that's a big deal is, is having ready access to to hydration and Cal fuel? And so that. So like, if you break down hydration, that doesn't mean just being able to drink water, but that means being able to put electrolyte mix in your water. It means being able to just scoop up water on the go and filter it on the go. So it's that's I that's what I think is what I really enjoy about fastpacking and designing for fastpacking is like, Breaking every little thing down into subsequent units, you know, kind of like I just did with hydration. What does that mean? What does that entail? So Mr.
[00:12:31] Tayson: Realizing too that I probably skipped over just the definition of fastpacking. Maybe, maybe we better hit that really quick before we move on. If you're if you're this far in and you don't know how fast can is kudos to you, we appreciate you.
[00:12:44] Brigham: I mean really yeah we can I think it's worth spending a minute or two on and then I would also just suggest like go to YouTube and and search. Fast backing and I think you can get a just a really good visual sense and probably some enthusiasm for it. By doing that. But I mean, it the way that I think of fast packing is is like a very light and fast way of You know, foot Travel Inn in the back country kind of being as fast as possible for whatever the distance is. I don't think I don't really feel like it entails necessarily it has to entail long distance but it's it's time over distance. I think that that efficiency is is a big deal. I think that's kind of you know because there's a lot of people out there that I think are valid and Referring to fast packing with like without even running.
[00:13:46] Brigham: I think that's I think it's pretty valid, you know, there's people that have Their method of fast packing or their way of doing. It is just being really efficient with stops with what they pack and with eating on the go and hydrating on the go. And I think that's just as valid as the, the fast packing that maybe may include running, because it's all about Going as fast and light as possible with the requisite Gear to to stay overnight. Whether that's one or multiple nights. Um,
[00:14:20] Tayson: yeah, yeah. I think I think we've had a fantastic example of what I would consider fastpacking in some of our interviewees of this show. People like Josh Perry who set the fkt fastest known time on the Pacific Crest Trail. He would time the amount of time he would time his stops rather than how much he was on the go because he was on the go so much, the stopping and limiting is stopping time was more important. So like he's taking this approach where he was in movement the entire day, some of the days he was covering like 50 plus miles and I asked him right out. I said do you like how much of the time are you running? And he's like I never run right? He's just being as streamlined efficient as lightweight as possible, right? So that to me is still a form of fastpacking. Something that this The skyline fastpack would absolutely work for that type of a person, right?
[00:15:16] Tayson: Because you've got the pocketing and we'll get into that the other form or definition that I've heard of fast packing is you know, you're essentially attempting to hike the uphills, jog, the flats and run down the Hills. I think that's a good like, like overarching template of like, ways to think. But yeah, coming back to what you said in the beginning, Brigham. It's really just trying to up your overall speed compared to maybe what you've done before. And with that, you know running is definitely on the table and option for sure to to empower that which is why we've done. Thousands of miles of run testing with this pack. So that's fast packing. So really just just being able to put more into a tighter trip. You know, if you're someone like, is a weekend warrior per se and you've got a three-day weekend and you've got something like the Wonderland Trail, you know, this might call to you.
[00:16:11] Tayson: Hey, this is a trip that some people take seven days to do, but with training and work schedules and stuff like that. I'm going to choose to do it this way so that I can do this and experience it the way, you know, this way. Or if you're a minimalist ultralight Backpacker you could take the same approach and just be like, yeah, a lot of people through hike and Hike 15 miles a day. I'm gonna try and I'm gonna hike 25 plus, you know. This cooling call out to someone like that because of the setup and structure of the packs. So, Make sense. So, All right, so dialing it back to to kind of where we were. Part of what we spent a lot of time on before we even started our own development was just seeing what's out in the market.
[00:16:55] Tayson: Saying, what like, what likes were of packs, what dislikes were of packs, what feedback was for people and and we spent a substantial time on that, and we really weren't happy with with everything out there. There were certain features of certain packs out there that we we thought were pretty good other ones that weren't. But in a lot of ways we thought, like there was a lot of improvement to be had, for instance, some of the some of the ones that I ran with basically the backpack was a vest. just added more capacity to and so the one when I loaded it up to actually fast pack, I got a ton of Bounce, I got a ton of movement, I got a ton of like chafing over time got a lot of barreling so sticking into my back and and that in a lot of ways we are one of the the first people That came from a backpacking perspective and build a fast pack versus a running vest company or a running company, that
[00:17:52] Tayson: built a fastpack. And I think that approach allowed us to, to look at this with the clean slate, and just a different mindset and, and really focus on things that I think make all the difference in the end product, that was designed,
[00:18:05] Brigham: yeah, I think if you kind of Break down that, break that down a little bit in terms of like why. It's not honestly. The most important. Part of these Origins are not necessarily. Well what packs did we try or buy and and what it what what didn't we like? I think backing it up a little bit to like, why even do that. so, the reason is we we set out to we said, okay, so as of today, As of as of now, we want to make a fast pack. But we're new to fast packing. We've never done a fastpacking trip. That is a significant challenge. If we were to just try to just go read a bunch of reviews and watch a bunch of YouTube videos, and then just throw out a fast pack. That's kind of our our wealth. I thought out attempt at a Fastpack but Again the why in terms of how we approached it was to ourselves, learn about fastpacking.
[00:19:17] Brigham: So that we have first-hand experience at a pretty at a at least a mediocre level of of experience and knowledge. To to put that into a fast pack. So when we talk about, we interviewed all these people and watched a bunch of videos and read as much as we could and then, you know, looked at what was available on the market and tested it. All of that is basically just so we can Relate to what fastpacking is and base the design off of first person first hand use and experience. so that's that's why we even you know, looked and and tested other packs it was so that we could experience fastpacking and Identify things that bothered us. So, It's not it's almost like it doesn't even matter that we, if we specifically say, well we're looking to, we want to design a fastpack to solve problems. That's a little bit over, use the oftentimes in in the industry.
[00:20:25] Brigham: We just want to make this pack and we want it to be the best that we can make. And we feel that the way of doing that is to have a experience doing that thing and to be able to have empathy from first-hand experience. So that we can identify like what works. And what doesn't work? What are the, what are the issues? Like, what are the like, what are the issues that that arise 20 mi into a 30 mile day when 30% of the miles are running miles? Different than just putting on a traditional backpacking pack and walking 30 miles. You can't, there's there's new issues, there's new interfaces, there's new hotspots. There's, there's new abrasion, there's new bouncing. There's it's a different way of fueling on the go. And so it was basically just imperative for us to have that firsthand personal experience. And so we're just internalizing and documenting all of these things.
[00:21:26] Brigham: As we're testing, you know, all these different packs that are out there and, and, and taking note as individuals within our team of what worked and then compiling all of that. And, and saying, like, Okay, well, Yeah, barreling is, it's an issue. It's something they have to be attentive to because once you have barreling, it creates this subsequent issue which compounds, you know, three other issues, and all of those, add to fatigue and soreness and potentially maybe, you know, not being able to finish a trip. And so, I guess that's, I think that's kind of the most important thing to to know, or to kind of comment on as far as like this product development is it's one where we wanted to become very familiar with fastpacking and like, without everybody just telling us what makes a great fast pack to kind of have our experience and and, and Implement that into our design and kind of our execution of a fast pack.
[00:22:33] Tayson: Yeah, I think you hit on a lot of really, really good points there. I want to come back to barreling at some point in case you guys don't know what that is, but Positives of us getting into this and trying this too. Or is that there is a ton of overlap with ultra light, backpacking. The negative was I started running for the first time in a long time to, to help with the training and to help with her to help with the prototyping. And if you haven't listened to another episodes that honestly has been one of the best things that I've ever done for my health and well-being, and Anyway, so we get into this.
[00:23:14] Tayson: we do, we do our research, we would get through 2021 or part of 2021, and we basically go to the drawing board and just start hammering out some really cool, really unique, really different designs to start testing and seeing what we can't prove out in the field and Like, we mentioned earlier, we went through tons of different harness systems, we went through different ways of attaching, the harness to the bag. We went through different pocketing system. I mean, I don't even know how many different pocketing systems over and over. We were just tweaking pockets and you know, we had, we had some pretty pretty awesome ideas. Actually mentioned this to someone the other day. Brigham. we've been in that we've been at this, Product so long now. That one of the very, very first ideas that you have to put on this pack was a bottom pass through pocket. And I don't think I had ever seen that.
[00:24:11] Tayson: I thought it was really cool design, was really excited about it and just like, since we've been designing this pack, I feel like there's been a handful of taxes that have come out with this bottle pocket. I'm like, gosh, dang! If we aren't testing this out so much and continuing to tweak and whatnot. Like, this probably could have been one of the first packs if not the first to have this bottle pocket. But yes. I mean, we, we went through a lot of prototypes and then we went through an entire, you know, fiscal year, another entire calendar year. Just continuing to test this product. Now, testing of this product was was interesting because, you know, obviously, we had fast packing tests, right? Like that, tusher that tusher Skyline Trail. We, you know, went rim to rim, to rim in the Grand Canyon.
[00:25:01] Tayson: We, you know, we did these other these are the trips, but but along with that me and Brigham, and others in the office were getting up in the mornings and running and testing this in our own backyard here. And so, we're logging miles every day in the pack, you know, some days, five miles, but this summer, I exclusively ran with our pack and so I was logging up to 20 miles a day with this pack for training. And and so where we're testing it with with significant loads, we're testing it with minimal loads. I ran my ultra marathon with this, so that was a 46 mile day where you're trying to carry as little as possible and I'm still just using this one pack, right? And so we just started racking up miles. We would we would I mean most of the time we would load the pack up and run with it with a fastpacking load in it and we just leave it.
[00:25:54] Tayson: I mean I would just leave it there you know day after day so that I could I could come back to it the next day and run again with a fully loaded pack to you to test and, you know, and then we'd get the next prototype in and we just take out, just take that load and I'd put it in the next pack and continue to Um but it was it was a lot of iterations and looking back at it now. What what do you think made it? So made it so that we did need to do that many iterations and like what was the challenges of Designing? This pack Brigham.
[00:26:31] Brigham: It's it's helpful to kind of look at like the Dynamics of what goes on with a fastpack. How, you know, generally how a fast pack sits on the body and what the, what the body motion's are? Because that kind of helps explain what I think is the most important part of the pack. And so, You know fast packing. There's there's just different variables, there's new factors, you have to count for with a Fastpack. So for example a fast pack is You know, it's not a backpack. That's full height or as tall as most backpacking backpacks and then the kind of important There is like lack of a of a load-bearing hip belt, so it's it's sized so that it sits, you know, higher above your above your belt line. Because there's no, there's no hip belt, we're not trying to transfer any weight and carry, any weight on the hip belt because The requirements, or the demands physically from fastpacking prioritize Mobility way more so than load transfer. So,
[00:27:45] Tayson: if you're locking up those hips, you're creating all sorts of opportunity for chafing and yeah, lack of mobility and
[00:27:51] Brigham: totally. And so, Just an example of these variables that are different than just backpacking. So but what all those variables for the most part that can potentially cause problems, or discomfort, or pain, or injury, they're all centered around the interface with the user and the pack, and that interface is what we would call like the suspension or the harness. So that's what contacts the body. It's the, every piece of the pack that involves securing the pack to our body, so that interface between the back, you know, the back panel of the fast pack and the users back and then how that is, you know, attached to our body. And so, you know, with a backpack that's generally like some some comfy padded. Slightly contour and shaped shoulder straps. And a hip belt but that's not enough to stabilize and account for all these, these new Dynamic factors with a fastpack.
[00:29:00] Brigham: So, That interface that we're calling the harness system is, in my opinion, the most important part that that to pay attention to, that's going to. Because that's the that's like where the bang for the buck is It's not designing a really slick looking bag with really cool attachment. Methods or closure methods or sewing lines. When you're running with it, you can't see any of that. And it doesn't affect the performance, or the function or the comfort. dynamically of the Fastpack and so focusing on the harness was like priority number one because That'll make or break the system. And so, That harness priority number one is stability and I don't know if I'm getting ahead of kind of where this conversation going about time we get into the meat of the practice cells. Okay so What are hard as we're trying to do is just stabilize anything everything and minimize movement whether that's up or down, twisting on that access side to side forward to back. We want not
[00:30:19] Tayson: Mobility, but more so movement of the pack different than your body. Exactly.
[00:30:24] Brigham: So, that's an important thing to remember, is, I'm going to use running as like the, the extreme end of the spectrum of movement because that's where there's the most kinetic energy. There's the most opposing Motion in the system of the, the runner, or the person and the pack. So when you you've got this static weight on your body, right? That's the fast pack. That's the object, but we're a separate object. And now we are moving forward, but our body is also, you know, moving up and down and twisting side to side with all those movements. Because whatever. The pack is like that's a separate unit. It's going to react to our movement but at a different rate. So when we move and jump up, then the pack is going to react, but we're already on our way down while that pack is still moving up or twisting. And so you've got all these opposing forces that magnify because of how fast that is happening and the speed that which that's happening.
[00:31:34] Brigham: So that's why running is kind of the extreme example where we I use that to explain how important the stability is. So if you have a fast pack or any pack on your body, that that the more that moves up and down side to side twisting, Torsionally, the more that moves one, the less energy gets transferred to the ground. In moving you, the direction you want to go and two, the more force and opposing force, and therefore, pressure, and fatigue that that puts on our body. So, that defines the need to have as just a secure connection to the body because we want that thing to be stable but also Move with our body. So not oppose our movement, not restrict our movement, but we want it to have as much contact and as with our body as possible, so that it moves with us and not against us or stays in place while we move.
[00:32:33] Brigham: So by focusing on stability and good contact, that creates, what we're going to refer to as comfort, because if you don't have those things, you will be uncomfortable. So the more movement, the less stable, the less comfortable you will be, or we will be your anybody will be using this. So that's where we focus that we focused on finding a good balance of You know, shoulder we'll just call shoulder straps but it's kind of the harness having a good balance of contact. A good balance of Molly ability or pliability, how? Well, it follows, or it hears to the Contours and shape of our body. And then the back panel And this is all done like iteration after iteration and through testing and experience. The back panel we found that we have to find a good balance of call it rigidity but also Conformity to the body. So, We talked you mentioned barreling or barreling is bad? Juju like that's that's like kind of a, we do not want barreling.
[00:33:41] Brigham: And barreling is when when you stuff all your contents in the pack that starts to form a cylindrical shape and so what fits up against your back is is curving away from our back. like, if you were to just take a cylindrical object and put it on your back, We have now lost a lot of contact and what that now creates is massive instability. So when you're if a pack is now cylindrically shaped and up against our body, and we're moving our body like this up and down totally side to side and forward. The pack is going to want to work its way around both sides of our body, and that creates a push and a pole. And it really puts a ton of strain and stress on our our scalable system, our muscular system, and it just creates a ton of fatigue, not to mention the topical abrasion hot spots.
[00:34:35] Tayson: well, it's like if you've got the ability to have more contact, Versus less contact. So like if I can put my hand flat on this, this paper and rub it around. I'm spreading all of that load across all of that surface area. But if I just rub one knuckle and I apply the same pressure that knuckle already heats up, right? It already heats up the second, I start to move. And so like with barreling, You're taking what could be all touching your body to distribute that weight and that contact and you're pinpointing it into less surface area, which then creates the need for, you know, people people we know that like have to tape their backs when they go fast packing and have to take extra precautions and for us, that really wasn't what we wanted. It wasn't in the realm of what we hope to be acceptable. So, So, yeah, we we have to, I mean, through prototypes and everything. We're, we're doing everything we can to stop that barreling. Yeah.
[00:35:25] Brigham: Um, yeah, yeah. Just again focusing on having good contact on the body without being too rigid. There's if it's too soft, you'll get barreling.
[00:35:35] Tayson: Yes, so there's that you talked about like the malleability of the shoulder harnesses, the back panel itself. One of the other big things is just again coming back to contact but not just contact on the back, contact all the way around the chest, right? So the thickness and width of the shoulder harness, the connection point of the shoulder harness straps, To the main bag. And how can we distribute that load? How can we make it? Essentially broader or wider. So we can continue to get really good contact. Because imagine, if you again, if you've got one strap, cutting across the side of your body versus better contact to stabilize that and yeah, I mean it was just it was it was a lot like it really does get down into a lot and you know, thankfully for you guys me and Brigham's, spend a lot of miles proving these things out so that you don't have to, to go through bad
[00:36:25] Brigham: and we live in southern Utah, and there's a lot of sand Southern Utah. So running in sand is It's gonna bring out the worst in your attitude in people and the back. It, it's a good test bed but but yeah. So it's it's interesting because the, the shoulder harness That we have now, like everything about a pocket layout. It's the shape. We took a dramatic turn like it. It's a completely different. Shape or profile. Then like the first four or five prototypes just because we just worked getting what we wanted in terms of stability and comfort and and spreading out, spreading out the load. Because again, There's no load-bearing hip belt, there's no load transfer. We have to distribute the weight. On like all contact points. So the more contact we have the more weight is distributed and and you know, Contact is having good contact is more than just like how how wide something is or how thick and cushy it is.
[00:37:39] Brigham: And so you know, those are some of them are a little bit counterintuitive, but yeah.
[00:37:48] Tayson: so, along the same theme of stability, and Also, on this pack, we do have two compression straps. And on each side one low one high I think those are all so pretty key to know right? We've got an over the top strap. I'm to suck the bag in tight, to to you and to keep the load tight. And then we've actually got two cord lock style compression straps. And you can actually see the bottom one super well because it's a little bit low hidden behind that pocket. It's accessible, because we've reversed it. So you can still access it. Really easy. But it's a little bit hard. But no, though, there are two and that comes into play too.
[00:38:25] Tayson: When you've got this pack load and you want this as tight and conform to your back as you can to carry that weight, I found just tremendous value and having those straps where they are typically what I would do when I was running like on that ultramarathon you know I can snug this pack down to nothing where on that ultramarathon I only have a small required gear list so you know, rain jacket. What is that? Like a foil blanket, an emergency blanket. A whistle, you know, some little things like that, I took a garment and reach mini, it was kind of pinging to family members. They could see where I was out on the course but they're very minimal gear and I suck this down that tight or I've been able to load this up with full capacity you know two plus nights worth of gear and and and I think just overall the pack is extremely stable from the harness system all the way to the bag in and of itself.
[00:39:20] Tayson: So feel like those are just too important things to note, especially for this like you want to have the ability to Snug the pack in even more so than say, with the backpack I feel like because The speed at which your body is maybe twisting or moving, it's going to amplify how much that bag is going to try to shift One Direction or another. And so just the overall stability of this pack is really, really good and I'm very, very happy with it. Now, there are, there is a this balance point though, right? So, when we initially started, we were looking a lot at different shock cord options. stretch elastic options and it like like there is some pros and cons to all this and we spent a lot of time dialing in extremes to to get to a point where we feel like we have great ability to breathe in the pack. We have great ability to keep it from bouncing.
[00:40:22] Tayson: and, and there's some really quick adjustments, which is all so key because You know, knowing how to adjust this pack is really, really important. I don't know if we want to get into like, that really quick, but maybe, maybe it's important to just notice that there are, you know, three main points of contact to adjust this pack. And unlike some of the other packs out there, you may be adjusting this pack throughout the day, you may be losing water weight throughout the day. You know, you may be eating a meal, you may be wanting to have a tighter fit on the downhill because you're getting more movement, but you're not needing to breathe as deep and then the uphill, you're getting less movement because you're hiking and so all of these little micro factors throughout the day, proved to be really important for ease of adjustment.
[00:41:09] Tayson: And so we've, we've factored that in as well being able to, you know, have have the Pack be able to not only stretch a little bit on the chest so that you can, you know, if you did take a really big deep breath. Like, you're not being constricted, but also have the ability to just quickly with one thumb, a lot of times when I'm going, Up and downhills. I can I can I can just hit the little buckle and kind of loosen the bottom strap the hair, and that's all, that's all that. It takes to just keep this. Pack where I wanted and where I feel like it's comfortable for me, we've got the ability to, you know, move the sternum straps. A dual sternum strap system up and down and so you can really tune this pack in, for you. And my kind of my favorite way to to describe this is a way that Brigham. Mentioned earlier on. The attack really is is unlike the traditional backpacks, a traditional backpack.
[00:42:01] Tayson: Let's just say it's like this Workhorse. It's like you're you're Workhorse of a truck out there, you know like your F-150 that you're just you're you're loading more stuff in it. You're doing more Dynamic things in it. This this pack would be more like that Lamborghini where it's like this thing is ready to go like your dialed. You know, you're not you're not you're not like like it's just a, it's a high performance backpack if that makes sense. It's not a an older style Kelty external frame pack here. Like this thing is dialed, it's fast. It's, it's Sleek. It's meant for a purpose. And so these adjustments and whatnot, help you just keep this thing tuned right in and ready to roll and if it's tuned, there's nothing like it out there. There's no other like experience or ability to do what it can do.
[00:42:48] Tayson: And so, yeah, I mean and that, that is really the foundational piece of all that is this harness system and all of the testing and prototyping and dialing and that we did.
[00:42:59] Brigham: Yeah. I think it's it's Really important for people to. to know, or have an expectation that This is this, this type of pack, and this, this fast packing, whatever, we whatever it is. I'm gonna say like sport or activity, but fast packing. There's so much going on with the Dynamics of the pack, and the body, and that interface, and that those opposing forces that that it is there. Something that it's good to kind of reframe our minds a little bit. In terms of this is a pack that we have to tune much like you'd call it a suspension in in a rock crawler or a Formula One car, or even tuning, an instrument a musical instrument, your vibrations of the strings of an instrument are just going to be off if it's not tuned like a piano like think of that, think of this Fastpack in that way, the the fact that a Formula One car has to be tuned for every race and oftentimes multiple times during the race that's indicative of the performance
[00:44:14] Brigham: level of that vehicle or the musical instrument, but it's a little bit, it's a New Concept, it's a different concept especially for people that are just coming from, you know, a backpack like the cs40 or some of the other backpacks like in that class where you put it on you, Buckle it, you sent it down and you go
[00:44:34] Tayson: A lot of times you don't readjust it the whole day.
[00:44:37] Brigham: Yep. Like I don't like, I never like, I set my straps and I've never touch them like a trip, after trip, you know, it'll sit for two weeks and I'll put it on and it's right where I left it. But
[00:44:47] Tayson: I Feel It by the amount of salt that locks your straps.
[00:44:50] Brigham: And yeah, they're welded in place with sweats all, but yeah, I think that is good for people to know that that we We expect you to be tuning it, to tune this harness, the suspension system, because there's so many points of adjustment, and it's, it's expected and will also. It's not just expected. It's necessary to get, like just the best performance of the pack from used to use because running down the Grand Canyon. When it's 90 degrees is different than running. I don't know. You know, a flat section of Trail when it's 50 degrees and and humid, you know, I mean the your your clothing is going to swell or contract, our bodies are going to swell or contract and all of those things adjust how the pack rides and adheres to our body.
[00:45:46] Brigham: So that's a, that's a good thing to put out there and make sure people know is like expect to to be tuning this pack and the more the more we do it, the more everybody else does, it will learn, you know, we know when to make those adjustments like you said, oh, I'm going uphill. I'm I'm not running now. I'm going up, so I'm going to make this adjustment. When I start running down, I know to make this other adjustment so on and so forth.
[00:46:15] Tayson: I think what's really important to know here though, is, these are micro adjustments on the Fly. Not big, daunting adjustments. So, when you first get the pack, you'll be able to kind of Set it up and you can follow a video that we've put together or written instructions as well. You get to pack that up and then while you're out there it's more of just the ability to quickly efficiently do a micro adjustment. So Say I'm a super sweaty guy when I'm out there running. So my straps. Maybe you're starting to, you know, get moisture in them and maybe they're just stretching out just a little bit so knowing what to quickly adjust like. And I don't mean, like, stop readjust the whole pack. I mean, like, just these micro adjustments they matter and we tried to build them in to be as easy to do on the fly as possible as well to get maximum performance. And this can sound pretty Technical.
[00:47:09] Tayson: And as you were talking, I'm just like my thought was like, if you're listening to this. And you're considering shopping around for different packs out there like ask yourself is the other company that I'm looking at doing this same level of critical thinking and adjustments and stuff. Because there's I have seen some packs out there that they're basically backpacks that get labeled as fast packs and there. And to me those are different categories there. Yes. They've got some pocketing on the shoulders, you know and some things like that but like they're they're not necessarily running packs, they're more I think so style.
[00:47:45] Brigham: So, yeah, that's I think that's a good, just a good thing to be aware of and I and I don't like to, I don't like to throw shade or call out, you know, anyone out there but just in terms of getting the best performance out of our product or shopping and comparing our products like We're trying to tell you all these things because they matter. And so In research and shopping, like yeah, ask yourself if you're not being told these things by whatever brand. Hopefully, we're giving people some, some things to think about to to ask those questions to the cells with the information that they're provided. Because I will say that there's, you know, there's always Trends, Trends are you know, Trends are just about as well. Trends are changed. So I was gonna say they're about the only thing as constant as change, but, like, Trends come and go with the wind and, and but there's no denying that there's Trends.
[00:48:46] Brigham: And, and right now, I'll say that, I think that a trend, whether it's here to stay or good or bad. It's still a trend is that people are kind of taking notice of like, Pax to have, what they call a running style or a vest style shoulder strap and Like I said, whether that's good or bad if that's there, if a pack has it, that's great, just be aware that, that may or may not mean that that pack is designed to run with. Again I would say do research and ask these questions like are is the is that other pack that you're looking at? Are they is the designer telling you to think about these things. Are they explaining the process behind this running vest style shoulder strap? Because just making a shoulder strap, that looks like a running vest style shoulder strap does not mean that it's going to do anything or You know, anything good or bad.
[00:49:50] Brigham: So just things to think about I would encourage, you know, anybody look listening and then shopping to kind of Do that cross-examination of our pack and everything out there. Just because we could have stopped a couple prototypes in because our shoulder straps looked like running because that's the shoulder straps because they because
[00:50:13] Tayson: they did, you know, this this whole conversation reminds me of this concept of like asking the brands and and figuring things out, just reminds me of Justin Outdoors for the z to follow him. He like loves to just dig in and just keep asking questions and getting these you know like what you know just digging in and I think there's some real value to everyone for that, right? Like going back to our core values and why our logo is an owl is, you know, we want you guys to be educated, you can make your own wise decisions, right? There's this different day and age where we expect the users to be making these wise decisions, not the users going into REI and having someone pick out a product for him. Um, so I mean test that out, ask our customer support, I'd love to hear how that goes.
[00:50:58] Tayson: I think they'll be able to be extremely knowledgeable and answer any questions that you have as you're doing the research, but never hesitate to reach out to the companies themselves and ask questions that you may have. We spend time here at Outdoor Vitals, we spend time training, our customer support, and taking them through the products. And, and, you know, Brigham sits down and takes them through the products. Very, very specifically. And then we highly encourage all of our staff, to use the products to go out on trail with us paid. We know, pay them to come out on trail with us and use the products. And so, we do try to bring this all the way through the lineup. So test it out. If you guys have questions about the product that we don't cover in this, Specifically, or if you're looking at another product, ask specifically, and tell you get an answer if you don't get an answer.
[00:51:43] Tayson: That's that's probably good indicator that Might not be the right thing, or, maybe it's not proven for what you're trying to prove it for. So, Okay, man, we've drilled on the harness and the stability. I think we've covered that. Maybe one last thing is that there is a, a waist belt. I won't call it a hip belt. The waist belt is removable people around the office. It's like a 50/50 whether people use it, it's just kind of trip to pendant and what, what's going on with the pack. I think, usually most people are using it, the heavier, the load, just for added stability and the main point purpose of that is another contact point to help with torsion and twist on the pack while you're running.
[00:52:24] Tayson: I use mine pretty much all the time but sometimes it's just so loose that it's not doing anything because I don't need it to and other times, I'll tighten it up just a hair to help with with that, but I think that kind of covers the entire harness system. So the other big point that we want to talk through And we will, we will get into the specifics capacities Waits materials. What comes with it? Because there's some bonus items that come with it Etc. But let's talk about pocketing and then we'll jump into that. So pocketing was a big one. We went through tons of different styles of pocketing and I really wanted to just explain the ideology behind that first and foremost. The most important part I would say of the fast pack is flask carry. With with fastpacking typically running with half liter flasks 500, milliliter flasks that are on your chest harness right here just gives you really quick. Access to the water, it's very comfortable place to carry the water.
[00:53:24] Tayson: It's very easy to access if you know for for like Brigham was mentioning. He uses a like a filter that screws right onto the hydro hydro pack hydroxide Hydro packs. Flasks so he can scoop water twist his lid. Back on the lid. Has the filter in it. Drop it back in and keep keep rolling. Doesn't have to stop to filter. Take the pack off to filter. Yeah, yeah, just incredibly efficient. So first and foremost we want to make sure we have good pockets for that and with that we want to we needed to make sure we had retainers for those. So we do have elastic Loops that go up and over and hold those right into place with their full empty, whatever they're going to stay right where they need to be. If you're not running with the flask like then you've got a big drop in Pocket that you Could, you know? Fill it with whatever you want, right? Yeah.
[00:54:15] Tayson: Next most important on the vest, I would say is going to be the bottom pocket. Now, this we wanted to be kind of kind of, I mean, just as big as we could get it, that was comfortable. Still easy access to it still, there's there's lots of different options, right? There's people that throw pockets in that kind of reach inside ways, they throw a lot of zippers on everything. They might throw There's just all sorts of different things. And really, we just wanted really quick access. Still ability to seal it up. So there's a shot cord on the top, but those bottom pockets are big. I mean, you can put in I don't know, you can probably put in put in. 400 plus calories per pocket. It's like a way to like describe that, you know? Like, yeah,
[00:54:57] Brigham: I mean, I think so, I would call them the kind of like, the general utility pocket of the harness system. They're they're volume eyes. Their kind of They're not square shape, but they're, I just mean, they're like they're generally broader, you know, they're not a long skinny pocket. and so it's also again a good reminder, that the whole reason for this layout of pocketing is hydration and fueling like, yeah, you can put A GoPro in a pocket. Sure, that's not. That's not the reason for this, this layout of pocketing. The reason for this layout of pocketing is for efficiency of hydration and fueling because the physical demands of running with a pack on, are significantly higher than just walking with a backpack, and so hydration, and, and fueling our bodies with cal, It's it takes a priority over the convenience of, you know, other Non-food items, right? Like I guess in a kind of a hierarchy is hydration nutrition, and maybe things like body protection like sunscreen and things like that.
[00:56:23] Brigham: Things that are going to keep us going and call it safe or healthy. So that's why I actually sometimes do run with my inreach in one of those lower Pockets because I've got the room and that's kind of a safety item specially if I'm Solo, or doing a solo overnight or the more remote, I go. I want that thing like as readily accessible but there's other options for that. So the point I'm communicating is, is that it may be tempting to maybe like put on pocket knife or a multi-tool or flash lights, you know, some of these other gear items for this. But Go ahead and do it. But the reason for it is hydration and nutrition and and efficiency we just want people because again We learned this by doing it a lot. And you learn quickly like that, you know, two little packets of hydration, mix. Is not going to cut it, you know? Like I mean, it's like, no, we need like 15, electrolyte packets.
[00:57:33] Brigham: And so being able to, to get that and assess your flask and mix the mix, the electrolytes and filter water and, you know, have a couple Goose or Energy, Chews, maybe a bar, or something like that. Like that's, that's like, that's where we make the money. So, yeah, because like, that's that's where it's at. And so,
[00:57:54] Tayson: I think what's going to keep you moving on the trail typically, it's hydration and fueling if there's anything else, maybe it is sunscreen maybe it's bug spray. Maybe consider putting those in the chestnuts. But things you don't need to tell dark things. You don't need to tell Camp, you know, that's going to be able to be organized in the main compartment. And there are some other Pockets here. So on top per sale, I'll say it's on top of but essentially overlapping with the upper, hydration pocket. There is a zippered pocket. I want to talk a little bit about that because I don't want there to be confusion on this. The zippered pocket is too safe safely and totally securely lock something into place on the harness. There's a key ring, a key clip, I should say. And one of those on the left, the left one, I believe, So you can clip your keys in which I do consistently, especially like on the day, the day hikes and stuff like that.
[00:58:50] Tayson: And then what I'll do just to give you an idea of the best. In my mind, what I found to be the best way to use those pockets is all put my drink mixes in one because they vertical, they sit in their really well, locked in secure. And then what I actually started to do is I put all of my trash in the other zipper ones. Unzip, it like an inch. I shove my trash in. I zip it back up and and that works really, really well and tell I can, you know, I'm totally stopped and can read repack that trash somewhere else, but but what I want to make sure is there is some volume in those zippered Pockets. But don't expect the zippered pocket to be protruding, clear off your chest.
[00:59:25] Tayson: Meaning, if you have a hydration water bottle in there, that's completely full, the zippered pocket is not going to have like a ton of volume in there so that you can have this thing just, you know, hanging four inches, protruding four inches straight off of your chest. That's not what it's there for. It's not ideal for the harness idea for you, so I wanted to just make sure that that we're not that some of that volume is in there. That is somewhat intentional because because We don't want it to be hanging straight off the back but really you just got the ability to lock things in in those zippered Pockets. It can't bounce out with with changing because I mean I will say this if I forget to do like the elastic tie on my My harness and I have something that's like bigger and longer that I've put in a slightly hanging out. I have launched like a packet of gummies out of the out of the harness.
