[00:00:00] Tayson: Hey everybody, welcome to the Live Ultralight Podcast powered by Outdoor Vitals. On this podcast, we're extremely passionate about getting you outdoors more comfortably and more confidently so that you can disconnect from this crazy world that we live in and reconnect with yourself. Today we brought on a special guest by the name of Jonathan Conti. A little backstory on Jonathan. Jonathan is a Boise, Idaho native and is a passionate cinematographer whose love for the outdoors has inspired his creation of a self -named YouTube channel covering a wide range of outdoor content from gear reviews to nature hikes. His videos showcase stunning photography that transports his audience into the backcountry. I can definitely attest to that. In this episode, we cover some very, very interesting subjects. We talk about him first getting into the backcountry about three years ago in 2020 and that journey. We talk about him going down to base camps in Nepal and lastly, we talk about his most popular video and story when he hit the SOS button on his Garmin inReach, the back story on that and takeaways learning from that because it did not go as planned. In fact, it went quite the opposite of what you might expect would happen when you hit the SOS button. So, there's many lessons to be learned from this interview with Jonathan, lots of good stories along the way. So, join me as we jump into this dialogue and this interview. From your videos, it looks like you also do quite a bit of winter camping, like what do you like about winter camping? What's the alert to doing that?
[00:01:34] Jonathan: Honestly, I just wanted to try it. I've only been backpacking and really going outside for three years now, so I haven't been doing this for that long. Just being in Idaho, it's five months that you might get for really good backpacking up here. If you're lucky, there's still snow on our trails now, but you'll get snow until July and then the snow comes back in October. So, really just to push my Idaho season is what attracted me to winter and getting to see places that normally you don't get to see, and you have it all to yourself. I liked the challenge of just trying to be able to survive. It's more of a survival situation. I think sometimes backpacking can be real easy, almost like Disneyland. There's a lot of trails around here. You can go 28 miles on the Sawtooth, I think was my first big trip, but you're seeing people every five minutes. It's not dangerous. It's the wilderness, but you're not in the wilderness, if that makes sense. So, just trying to take it up a level is what has attracted me to winter camping, but it is. It's hard. It's hard for sure. I'm going to do less of it. Because, I mean, no one will go with me. Everyone's like, dude, you're crazy. What are you doing? No one's going to go with you. So, it is 16 hours in your tent by yourself, so it's really been just kind of trying to find a challenge and trying to figure out if I can do it. I've enjoyed more the winter camping in the desert. We do have some deserts up here that don't get really thick snow. And I do enjoy that. I do enjoy that a lot, even though it's five degrees out there. But dealing with 100 inches of snow isn't as fun.
[00:03:44] Tayson: Yeah, it's definitely a challenge, right? And I kind of got into it the same way. You have these long drawn out winters and you still want to get out, still want to enjoy just being outside and disconnect. And I really enjoy the quiet of how quiet it is out there in the winter. Just everything is sound deadened and there's no traffic on the mountains, per se. And so, that was a big draw to me. But I didn't realize that you'd only been backpacking for three years.
[00:04:17] Jonathan: Yeah, three years.
[00:04:19] Tayson: How did you get into backpacking? Yeah, tell us maybe that story.
[00:04:23] Jonathan: Well, I got into photography and filmmaking first. So, I've been doing the whole video thing for going on 12 years now. That's been my profession. I started in news and then, like most people, I wanted to travel with my camera. I wanted to be a travel videographer, a travel photographer. So, my background's in video. And so, I got out of the news and I hooked up with a travel photographer to start the video side of his business. And through that, I... able to, to travel a lot in places like this but more Luxury travel. So I got to work in Patagonia and Torres del Paine EcoCamp. So you're doing the W Trek. But you're not backpacking. It you're doing a day trip from Eco Camp. They have guides that take you all sorts of things like that. Same thing I did that, of course, a France and all these places and then I did it in Idaho. And Idaho, we, we got a contract for our tourism department where we got to go out for the year and do all this cool Idaho stuff. And if you know anything about Idaho, it's very outdoor oriented. A lot of rafting snowmobile in the winter, ski resorts things like that. So, I got into that part of travel and not part of the outdoors, the outskirts of it. And through that, I mean I really fell in love with it. I fell in love with guideline, my uncle's a Ralph guy. Here I did a lot of work with with guides and small business owners that make their living in the outdoors and I really wanted to get out And do it for myself. And I think I just wanted to do it on my own. It was, I was always reliant on seeing places with if I had a job and someone would take me But I didn't want I wanted to go places that, you know, I planned and I did and and that's what I started doing. I got in the backpacking. So I just took my camping stuff out. The bag must have been like 60 pounds. I think my sleeping bag weight. Six was like a zero degree. I think it was in May. It was in May KO vide year whatever year that was. You know I was another thing, nothing's everything shut down. So that's really all you can do and I started with three overnight trips right in a row. I think the longest they were was like two and a half miles in two and a half miles out and just built from there doing it by myself. So that's that's kind of how I got into it and I'm still very much learning and yeah, that's where we're at. What so like
[00:07:17] Tayson: if you were to think about the very first trip you went on, did you go solo? Did you go with friends?
[00:07:23] Jonathan: Yep.
[00:07:23] Tayson: What? We're yeah the fears and things that, you know, there's a lot of people I would say that even listen to this, that are, you know, maybe geared up to their very first one and you know, there's there's a lot of unknowns that keep him from going.
[00:07:39] Jonathan: Yeah, so I don't know if I had any real fears honestly from the beginning. I did start out with just doing it by myself. So my first three trips were six trips were by myself. Then I went with a friend for another couple of trips and then my first long multi-day trip was 28 mi in, in the Sawtooth mountains of Idaho. It's, it's probably our most popular Wilderness for people hike. and that was so low with terrible gear again and then I started upgrading gear and over the years I've gone with people and but mostly not so much experience. So it's really been me just kind of teaching myself and learning a lot of books. But yeah, I didn't really have any fear. Maybe because I was so in touch with the with, you know, I had already seen it. I already been out there. I was just excited. I remember my first trip I was walking around camp and bear feed and You know. Was one coming over a log man and there. You know, the rattlesnake and I got no shoes on and I'm like, he just goes right over into my tent like right under the, the vestibule and My Curls up. And I'm like, oh, what do I do? But even that was wasn't even a scary thing for me. Like, I tell people all the time, like, I like rattlesnakes that the friendliest snake, they let you know when you're when they're nearby. None. None of that really scared me. It wasn't you,
[00:09:22] Tayson: what? I mean you just go in the ice has to be on sleep next to the snake. For the
[00:09:26] Jonathan: snake know, I started throwing rocks at it, is what I did. I didn't have a sticker or anything. I don't know if I put my shoes back on. I probably did but I started throwing rocks out of it until it would finally. Last, I didn't kill it. It just slinked off into a bush and then of course, she'll like, you know, that was the first night, so I just sleep and then wake back up and it's like, I don't know, maybe
[00:09:49] Tayson: right.
[00:09:50] Jonathan: I just surround
[00:09:51] Tayson: yeah, well a lot of people don't think about it and maybe a lot dude but you know, I A lot of people that like when I say or maybe they see a video or something where you're just totally out there, solo, they're just like, dude, I could never do that. And Noah, and mainly people say that like in person like you could never go solo out there like that's that's crazy, you know, but there are a lot of people with fears, just like that, what it's snakes or Bears or mountain lions or Boogeyman, you know like they hear they hear stuff moving around camp at night which happens. I mean, you'll have deer or elk or you know, they'll skirt your camp and you sometimes you can hear them walk in and People, it can be very terrifying for people. So I think, I think going out solo your first time that's probably less common. And I think most people are going to try to go with at least a friend, either a friend that has experienced or friend, that that's just as interested in them to try to to bridge that Gap. Just a little bit. I think that's that's admirable to just to just go out there and, and attempt it, right?
[00:10:55] Jonathan: There's there's a lot of yeah. I mean, I don't know about admirable but there's a lot of that in the outdoor Community where You know, hunting. Fishing hiking. Anything you usually I would say most people learn and correct me if I'm wrong but from a parent a family member that takes them out. Probably is where they get it from or you're right. If they have a friend, maybe that friend takes them out, but really it's something that's passed down, at least. That's what I found with the guides that I work with and they're Third Generation in it, they know what they're doing. I didn't have any like, anybody really like that, doing what I wanted to do to teach me. And you can see all the first time, you can see pretty much every backpacking trip I've ever done in my life on the YouTube channel. Like you could you can see the saggy diaper of a backpack that I was wearing I just I just went out and did it.
[00:11:54] Tayson: So what's your word of advice to someone who is wanting to do that? Like if you just have like a little tiny synopsis of Motivation for those people.
[00:12:06] Jonathan: Okay, so here to do it one. Don't bite off more than you can shoot right away, right? I didn't start with doing 28 miles. I started with doing one and a half, so definitely do a very short trip. If you're gonna do it by yourself, A lot of places here in Idaho and all over, you know, their trails are really marked. They've got signs on them, like take a trail like that something where you won't get lost, find it, nearby. Find it in books. I'm I find all my hikes still buy books. So if I'm going to I just went to the Eagle Cap Wilderness in Oregon. I have six hiking books on Oregon, just from like, oh, I want to go do that and finding my routes and stuff like that. So, learn learn how to find your trip. Learn how to do that, and just start doing small stuff. And then, I want to worry too much about the gear right away. Um, gears, always something that you're It's so expensive. There's so much of it. I think there's so much good gear and it's really about finding what works for you, what you need. So maybe throw together your gear kind of have not have Hazard leave but what you got, don't worry about weight. So much, make sure you're gonna enjoy it. Go out there and then slowly like upgrade from their prioritize, your sleeping system, stuff like that, and then get into it. And then, yeah, go ahead and
[00:13:38] Tayson: I was gonna say if, if you're just about to buy some gear like just go ahead and fast forward for a second, but otherwise yeah, like the more you go, the more You know what gear you really want. I've definitely seen people go out. Buy a bunch of gear. And then start backpacking. And then, like, by the end of the season, they're like, man, I bought all the wrong gear. Now, I've got a rebuy everything, it's very common. So, but if you're not gonna spend a bunch of money on outdoorvitals.mom and then and then look at that section again.
[00:14:06] Jonathan: Yeah. But of course, Outdoor Vitals has the best here. So, when you buy it, make sure you check outdoorvitals.mom. And the last thing I would do is like, you know, I protect myself when I go out there if If I'm in, I usually take bear spray that, that's it. Right here, if I'm in Black Bear Country or anything like that, Garmin inReach, in case I get in trouble. If I'm hiking and grizzly country, I don't know if this is I don't know controversial but I carry a firearm if I'm hiking and grizzly country. Just makes me feel safe. Like I don't. I mean a lot of people are like no connect with nature, be one with the Bears and I'm like, well, I'm by myself. So I I do want to carry some stuff that in case I do, Get into some sort of trouble. Are getting into. Yeah, a face-to-face with an animal that I'm not left there with just, you know, What what's this podcast rated my bleep in my hands?
[Editor’s note: These promotional and wildlife-defense remarks were recorded in 2023 and reflect personal choices, not a current product claim or general safety recommendation. Follow current local law and qualified wildlife-agency guidance for the area you visit.]
[00:15:10] Jonathan: So yeah.
[00:15:13] Tayson: Yeah, I think I think if it's gonna make you feel better about going like more secure than do it right, whether that's a firearm, whether that's bear, spray, whatever it is. I mean there's I I would say personally like I'm still not crazy comfortable and grizzly country but um, and so, that's something that I have to consider, but I've also talked to people that have been in Grizzly country their whole lives, and they've had experience is, and they've You know, they're, they're fear levels of dropped and they do things a little bit differently than I would. So whatever it is, that makes you feel secure. I would say to go out the first time or however many times, you know, keep On that vein. So, You'd mentioned, just just really quick at the start of this that you were, you could just been in Nepal and and around Everest. What was that Adventure?
[Editor’s note: The firearm and bear-spray remarks are personal comments from 2023, not general wildlife-safety guidance. Follow current local law and qualified wildlife-agency guidance for the specific animals and area.]
[00:16:05] Jonathan: Yeah, I went to Nepal and did the Everest Base Camp trek, pretty popular track where it takes 12 days. You're just going from. Man, I forget what I flew into. Let's anyway, 9,000 feet that basically 18,000 feet, right? Is where you start takes you 12 days and you got to go with Sherpas. But yeah, I was a really cool trip. I went with my aunt and uncle and some of their friends. They were just going, they were hiking up there. It was kind of them once in a lifetime trip. So they just they just invited me along and I went for it and I got super sick. I have 14,000 feet. and came back with Dengue fever, but Once in a lifetime trip.
[00:16:58] Tayson: Yeah, they was came back. What? Thank
[00:17:01] Jonathan: you. Yeah, thank you. Got a few of us. One of our, one of our One of our, one of our group had to be evacuated and then, yeah, it's not good, man. 14,000 feet, hit 101.
[00:17:18] Tayson: What is Dengue? How do you can? How do you contract it?
[00:17:21] Jonathan: Mosquitoes today is mosquitoes, you'll get a fever, chills, you'll be very weak, um, and then fun side effects that you may or may not get. But I definitely got is vomit and extreme diarrhea. So there I was really lucky in the fact that in Nepal, it was most of the places we stayed had two beds, one for You know, the husband and wife but I have a solo on the trip, so I had two beds and every one of my room. And the first night I got hit, I had to switch beds in the middle of the night because I wiped out the bed. So that's kind of what Dengue is I remember. Like our guide, my Sherpa coming in in the morning and this eyes were wide, and he was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you're still here, you're still gonna go but yeah, altitude. And I mean, the problem with the Paul is is very it's very dirty, I'm not gonna lie. Um,
[Editor’s note: This is Jonathan’s historical illness account, not a diagnosis or complete description of dengue. Travelers should use current public-health guidance and qualified medical care for symptoms or exposure concerns.]
[00:18:24] Tayson: yeah
[00:18:24] Jonathan: it is country, it's not a rich country, they the highway or the trail that goes all the way up to Everest. Base Camp, you're seeing cattle, and all these animals. Go, they leave. Their Crap all over the trail. It rains. So you're basically hiking in crap and pissed the whole time. And then in the The Lodges. They're even burning, you know, cow manure for the, for the heat, you develop, What's called the Khumbu cough? Which is just this cough that you developed it named after the Khumbu Valley where base camp is located. Just because you're entertaining, everyone, pretty much get that carbon monoxide. Yeah, it's just a common thing because you're inhaling so much of that carbon monoxide that comes off the cow crap and at night in The Lodges to stay warm. So, uh, yeah. You get sick. You're eating the same things over and over again. I wouldn't call it. Fun. But it is super rewarding and it's obviously a once in a lifetime thing to do.
[Editor’s note: The stated cause of the cough and exposure level were not independently verified. Smoke and carbon-monoxide exposure can be dangerous; this personal account is not medical or lodging-safety guidance.]
[00:19:35] Jonathan: So Everest was was a bucket list trip but it's a lot of work to get there. Kathmandu is crazy. And yeah, you will not feel good.
[00:19:46] Tayson: Yeah, that's kind of like almost like the darker side of things, you know. Developing a cough getting sick, the dirty and I feel like some of those are coming to light with even hiking, Everest um, I've seen different things on YouTube and whatnot of just people getting really critical of the hike itself. And, you know, whether it's people like pointing fun at other people being like, Oh, you just hired the sherp of this, or whether it's like, you know, you're passing dead bodies on the trail. People dumping trash everywhere because they don't want to hike it out. There's definitely like a darker side of it. I'm curious what your takeaway was on, that kind of stuff like, is it something you never want to go back and do is it or was it kind of like eye-opening experience of like, maybe this isn't something you want to do. I'm just I'm really curious because you know, getting some some of the sources of information on line is not the whole picture, you know. So I'm curious. Yeah it's not as after being there on boots on the ground.
[00:20:50] Jonathan: Yeah, I hope that my video did a good job. I did make a video on a good job of showing a little bit of both. I mean, again, it's very rewarding. It's very, very rewarding. It's very cool. You're in the highest mountains in the world things that you've only seen in on Netflix and it's just super cool. But yeah, it's it's tough. It's a luxury. It's the food sucks and you're still carrying a lot. Even though the shirts are helping you out afterwards, I did. Think about like man mountaineering would be really cool and I would really cut love to come back. I would never go back and climb Everest,
[00:21:29] Tayson: okay.
[00:21:31] Jonathan: I don't that's not something that. Really appeals to me. and, I don't take away from people that do it. I know people are online. Might call it a tourist Adventure, right? You just pay the shirt, but you get to the top, it is not that it isn't that. Um, actually while we were there, three people died on Everest, hit by an avalanche. There were Avalanches all over the place. There was that Olympic skier that died on Manaslu or something. I forget the name of the mountain but she was an Olympic skier. Got hit by Avalanches so just because you hired someone to go doesn't mean it's not dangerous doesn't mean that you're gonna make it like I don't take any of that away from you. If you go to that person it just when you're there and you're looking up it's actually not the most eye-popping Mountain that you're gonna pass on that trip, like Ama Dablam for me was A mate, like the craziest Mountain I've ever seen.
[Editor’s note: The avalanche deaths, locations, and surrounding historical details above are Jonathan’s recollection and were not independently verified here.]
[00:22:33] Jonathan: And I think that one's over like 6500 meters is what that one's at. So it's tall. It's not Everest tall, it's not an 8,000 but it's just visually stunning sits right over the valley. And there was a part of me that looked at it and I was like, man, I would I kind of want to come back and I want to I want to try that. So yeah, I go back but I would need a lot more education and mountaineering training in classes and stuff, but you know, three years into this. We'll see what happens. Maybe a 40, I'm like. All right, let's go back to mountains.
[00:23:10] Tayson: Still. So little time too. I would say. Like, I look back at my History of backpacking. And You constantly learn you constantly hone. And like I look back three years and like I've even me like I've I feel like I've learned more and more every year you learn and what not see. I like when I you say it, like you only be in three years into this. Like yeah, like it. You're still just I don't know. I think you just always learn like I think that's why people listen to this podcast, right? They just always want to learn always want to hold their skills or be open to new adventures and I'm curious what you know I've never been to 8000 18,000 feet what was it like to you? Have you done a lot of like Peak bagging or been up at high elevation? Much was I'm I guess I'm kind of curious just what your takeaways were being that high up.
[00:24:07] Jonathan: So I I do spend a lot of time and High elevation. I think when you think about the United States, well, I'm usually over 9,000 feet when I'm out, this is the Rocky Mountains. We're up high, it's a Colorado. 14,000 feet high, but we're between 9,000 and, you know 11,000 feet up here. So I and I try to do 24 backpacks a year is the number that I do. So I'm up there quite a bit. and, It's not gonna prepare for what. For 18,000, it just won't. I thought, I thought I'd be good, I didn't take any of the pre-medication or anything like that and once I hit 14,000, it was on. It was like, whoa. And I just called it, the great equalizer. I mean it it doesn't matter how much you train I was in such good shape for Everest. I mean die. It was everything. I was running in the Foothills, my cardio was up. I put on some extra weight because I was gonna lose weight. Like I was so dialed in and as soon as and I'm hiking with No 50 year olds, 60 year olds, all these people. That knows, that's them. I was just like oh just cruise by you. And that's what I did. I hiked really fast. I hiked really fast and at 14,000 feet. My My self. And the other person that was in shape where dead in our in our, in our laundry rooms, we were dead and it everyone else because everyone else was going slow, you really have to go slow. Like your pride will will fail you at those high elevations. You have to go slow. You take days to acclimate and after we got sick, Our God was just like, okay, I'm gonna be in front. You can't pass me anymore. You have to stay behind me because if you go, you're going too fast and that isn't gonna work. So yeah, being a young younger more in shape guy I was like oh this is easy. And as soon as you hit that elevation like it's it's like no it's we call
[00:26:25] Tayson: it was. there was something to Like obviously you've already touched on like rate of a scent or exertion level, right? Two, two big factors in elevation sickness. As you look back and reflect on that. Was there anything else going on such as dehydration or lack of consistent? Fueling anything like that at all?
[00:26:47] Jonathan: No, you know, it's pure exhaustion. It was a I started to feel I was very good with dehydration. They feed you three times, you know, you get you get good meals. It's usually just rice and some sort of meat. It's it gets boring, but it's not bad fuel. It's just it is the elevation. It just it's the great equalizer. It'll its conquered many. It'll conquer you.
[00:27:17] Tayson: Yeah. After spending time up there, do you get used to it? Do you get used to like, like I guess after you've spent a few days up there. say 15,000 feet feel like 11,000 feet at home or do you just always feel the difference
[00:27:34] Jonathan: You're gonna always feel the difference at those higher elevations. If you're only there for the amount of time I was there, I was only there for two weeks. Obviously, if you spend more time up there, it's going to feel better. But not once you once you pass Namche Bazaar which is 12,000, you're gonna feel different, you're gonna feel worse and it's not going to feel better until you get back down.
[00:28:02] Tayson: Yeah, that makes sense. when I was just out on a hike, someone, Had mentioned this. I wanted to look it up. Okay, Catman. There's saying Kathmandu was like at 9,000 feet but it looks like it's only at 4600 feet. The city that you flew into though, what you said was pretty high as well.
[00:28:22] Jonathan: Yeah, it's in the video.
[00:28:23] Tayson: Was it looks or something?
[00:28:26] Jonathan: You said look? Yeah, well the one that we flow up, you usually fly into is. Let's see. Come on. Look at up.
[00:28:37] Tayson: Yeah, I'll see if I can find it but it's really interesting. The time and time at elevation, right? Is keying. And then obviously, you know, rate of ascent exertion all these, all these factors play in but it's I have this thing where I'm highly addicted to going high in the mountains and spending a lot of time at high elevations. but I would say, I feel more susceptible to issues. So I'm like, hyper-conscious of like anything I can learn from people, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna take those those lessons and try to apply them because it's I think I don't do myself favors going into high elevation like I've just proven time and time again. That is seems like I'm I don't Thrive but that's my favorite place to be. So I'm just, I don't know. I hydrate like crazy, I feel well I, I'm just hyper Vigilant of a lot of the little things that you can control. I've learned like days before even getting rests two or three days before you go into elevation has has proven to be to be a big factor, just all these little things. But so I'm curious what, you know, anytime I get a chance to talk to someone who's going to these super high elevations, And what do you consider high elevations? I think a lot of people would consider them different. Maybe someone from Alaska might say, like, 9,000, what is that high? What do you think? What do you consider?
[00:30:04] Jonathan: Oh that's that's what's funny, is you would think that, right? But when I was going through the Brooks range in Alaska, I was thinking, you know, you see images of it. And it's like dude, these are the most raw High looking mountains ever. And we're like, going through these big mountain passes that like 4,000 feet. And I'm like, oh you know, but tree line is so low in Alaska when you get up into the Arctic Circle. So to me, personally I would consider 9,000 feet high elevation. However, I think the books, you know, are going to consider anything over. 8,000 feet, high elevation, like you get your susceptibility for altitude sickness really increases around 8,000 feet. So so that's caught me too. I've got elevation Sick Around 9,000 feet before. And in my head I'm like I'm not even to the high stuff yet, you know what I mean? And so I don't take it seriously. And then I'll Sudden I'm I'm sick. And I'm like, dang it. Yeah, this is I guess this is high, you know.
[Editor’s note: The altitude thresholds, causes, acclimatization experience, and prevention ideas above are personal historical observations, not medical guidance. Individual susceptibility varies; use current qualified guidance for high-altitude travel and symptoms.]
[00:31:00] Tayson: I've got an elevation sickness too at 10,000 for me, it's always just over exertion I want to get to that Lake faster and I pushed myself a little too far and I really should be resting kind of taking it slow so that's always what gets me but yeah. All right, I want to shift the conversation for a minute. Obviously you do a lot on YouTube. You've got some really awesome you know cinematic Style videos, You've Got Gear related videos but there's no denying that that one video stands out that is your absolute most popular video. And it's about when you hit your SOS button on your Garmin in reach, I'm wondering if you'd be willing to talk a little bit about that experience, or if it's something you don't want to talk about, it's fine man. Okay? Yeah, yeah. So I thought it was really enlightening and I I mean that video is creeping up on a million views. And I think it's incredibly important people watch it.
[Editor’s note: Tayson’s statement that his own altitude sickness was “always” caused by overexertion is a personal recollection, not a medical conclusion. Altitude illness can be serious; use current qualified medical and high-altitude guidance.]
[00:32:03] Tayson: And the number one reason, why is I do think that that people can get a little bit of a false sense of security when they pack around? The Garmin, or their bear spray or something, whatever it is like, they in the backcountry, it's easy to develop a little bit of overconfidence as well. But when things go wrong, and I do this, too, like I the biggest thing I know is the chink in my armor right now is probably my first aid kit. Like, I'm just not going through my first aid kit enough. And I, I take the same first aid kit every time and I know that I need to be going through it and making it better all the time and I don't because I get this false sense of security and So, maybe a little bit of backstory on what I'm, what I'm talking about with this particular video, which I'd advise you guys to go check it out. There's many lessons to be learned and, and just Yeah, like you can't, you can't always count on people to the degree that you think you can and there's lots of lots of things but essentially. Yeah, so much. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna Buzz through it a little bit and then I'm gonna let you talk. But basically, the backstory is that you were headed into some lakes in the middle of winter. I believe it was January. It's about seven miles in from what I was seeing it was, you know, 12 to 15,000 feet or excuse me, 100 feet of vertical, climbing and descending to get into these Lakes. But you're cutting snow. You're cutting Trail. Exponentially harder in the winter, the farther you get in there. The more you realize, you know, this is this is going to be really hard for me to get out. I'm burning through all the fuel that I had because I can't find any running water. I'm it's taking me more more and more time than I thought and and so on so forth and it just kind of starts to build into this scenario where you don't see yourself getting out on your own efforts. It's slowly kind of lured you into the point where you're like holy cow like I do need help. And with that you hit your SOS button to get some help to help you get out of the backcountry and And that's I would say where the story really Starts. Now, there's there's so much don't pack here, right? Because you could, you could totally be like, well, what's the lessons? What could I have done differently, right? Like, we could totally go down that vein. We could go down the vein of what could they have done differently, which is probably the vein to look at. But I would say to summarize that and we have podcasts out there about this, which is, you know, in the winter time. It's so easy. And I do it. I do it all the time. Once a year, I feel like I over expected myself in Winter conditions, mileage, and you just really don't know what is possible until your boots on the ground. See this? Conditions for yourself and they can change, they can change from Trailhead to destination, snow can get deeper, all sorts of things. And so there's times when you look at a map and like that's five miles, that's so easy, you know, I do 20 in the summer and you just don't know how you're there and so you learned a lot from that you shared a lot of that in the video. but anyways, you press the SOS button, Maybe let's start by sharing. What, what was your expectation when you press the SOS button and then we'll talk about reality.
[00:35:22] Jonathan: Yeah. Okay. Where do I start with this? Yeah. So I did press the SOS button. Let me back up a little bit. So, yeah, I went into, I went into the, it was in the place in the Bitterroots. In the winter. I had just gotten back from Everest, so I was really in that mountaineering Spirit, you know, getting out there in the winter and stuff like that. I just done that big trip and and I wanted to go out there. It also wasn't my first time in the winter in the Bitterroots, I had done 20 months. 20 through the snow in the Bitterroots. The year before that video is online, too. You can see that. I made it out loud. You can also see, like there was there was plenty of water. It was the same time of year. So I felt like I was I was I was a little comfortable. Now I was on the after effects of like Dengue Fever which I thought had been gone, but that also hurt me, there was a lot of hurt me, and a lot of people.
[00:36:27] Tayson: He was elevation hurt. You. Like you like do you think that ended up catching up to you a little bit or anything? Like
[00:36:32] Jonathan: I think just being weak from Everest, honestly?
[00:36:35] Tayson: Yeah,
[00:36:37] Jonathan: caught up to me out there. I don't know. Obviously the snow like you were saying like you touched on is just it can change, it can get to you. But I I was I was really feeling that that Everest trip, even though this was over a month later and I thought I had rested enough and a lot of people ask me, why do that? And it's just like man, I'm out here to the challenge myself. I mean you've heard my story I went out by myself, I'm still going out by myself, that's how I learned. That's how I do it and I've been doing it. So I go out there and I do carry the Garmin now I got the Garmin because I know that this stuff happens, like I'm betting that if I started 30 years old. Backpacking and I do have her by myself for 40 years that I'm gonna need that Garmin at some point, right? You just hope you never need it, but but you I mean I saw it was it was a smart and safe thing to do not that I was Totally relying on it. Like I pack paper maps and stuff like that. So I'm not relying it on it for my navigation, but that SOS is nice. I can contact people, it's just the smart thing to do. So, I go in with the Garmin. and, Again, the trouble not even in trouble, I'm just kind of like, I think I'm in trouble and I'm texting people. In back home and they're like they're telling me to hit the SOS button. They're like hit the SOS button now so that you're not dead. By the time you're hit, we don't know what's going to happen so I hit it the night before. and what happens when you hit the SOS button is Garmin will send you a message back immediately saying there Talking to the the local Rescue Team. Now I figured they would contact a rescue team out of Missoula or Bozeman Montana, which are the two. Biggest cities around that area that I figured would have search and rescue capabilities. Both big you know towns obviously not every town has search and rescue. If you come to Idaho, Stanley in the Sawtooth has search and rescue there and they have Helicopters and planes and everything standing by its huge search and rescue area. They train search and rescue there, you'll find search and rescue no problem. If you're in northern Idaho, it's a little bit different so I don't know where that's coming from. I don't know who well, who they end up. Contacting is just the local police department. In a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very small town in northern Idaho. I don't know if any of, you know about northern Idaho. This is where Ruby Ridge went down. This is, this is It's one of the most remote, like, stay off my lawn places. I think in the lower 48, it's a place that's small. So they contact a local. Police Department, who contacts me in the morning, she's where I am and we start communicating and I'm not too far from the Lakes, I'm down in some little Ravine. And so I think that the idea Comes from me but I'm like Hey listen I'm good. I've got. Day I can hike to these Lakes. Big lakes that are frozen over big good places where I know water is, I'm kind of low on water. I'm like, did good, good visually so you can see me, you know, not down in the tree line and stuff like that and So, that's what I do. We see a road above one of the Lakes that's like, They're gonna meet me with snowmobiles at the top of it, and they want me to hike up to these roads. So, heck about another two and a half miles from the spot that on that. To the second Lake. and at the second Lake I get there and I I look up and it's like, I think I I went back and looked it's like a 30%. Incline packed full of snow in January in the Bitterroots. And like, it's just trees. Rocks. Snow. It's like one 30 in the afternoon again in the winter. Dark by four. I'm just like I don't know how I'm gonna get out of here. I don't know what I'm gonna do and From there I just you know get to know a little argument with my search and rescue team about what should be done next and it kind of just steamrolls from their man.
[00:41:25] Tayson: Because I mean your expectation was that search and rescue would come to you. And help you write.
[00:41:32] Jonathan: In. Yeah, in a certain sense. I'm not I've worked with search and rescue before just in like, not worked, like, worked as search and rescue, but just in my videography and stuff like that, I understood what search and rescue should do a little bit. And usually I I consider it usually, when I talk to search and rescue they want to come in and get you or at least like don't want you to move a whole lot. It was so funny man. I had this similar incident the other day where my mother, we were going to the Eagle Cap Wilderness. We were hiking and she got lost in her car driving to the campground, right? You know, I'm texting her for the Garmin. There's no service where I'm at. Hey, where are you? I get my truck. And I go to look for and I can't find her and I come out. And I actually ended up texting her mom. I need you to drive somewhere where you're in service. And I need you to stop and I need you to wait for me and I need, I'm gonna come, get you, and I'm gonna Lead You In. She didn't do that. She drove her car into a tree and now we had a worse situation. Yeah, she went over a rock with her trailer. She took some side alley trying to find us and set a waiting. She took some rock in the side alley, all of a sudden we're in a worse mess. This is her in a car, in the middle of the day. Now, imagine snow all around, no Trail and you got a single person, like it just makes sense. That's what you do in search and rescue. And it was my idea to be like, listen, this is kind of like not a good place for him at, but I can get up to the lake. You can get to the lake. Let's converge at the lake. Come get me at the lake. and, That's where we got into the argument is where like they're like, no we want you to hike up out of this, you know, a lake sits down in a in a bowl. If you've ever seen a mountain lake, I'm not I can't hike up over the bridge. They're like oh it's just like right there and that's like I'm seeing the snow rocks trees. Uh, if I get caught on the side of this mountain, in the middle of the night. Am I going to survive? Like, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna survive? I'm in a weekend deteriorate. I'm not sure about water. So eventually I just had to they were like, no, you're gonna come up here. You're gonna basically They didn't say this but like the vibe I was getting was come up here or we're not gonna come down and get you like you gotta make it up here and I just put my foot down finally. And I was like, I'm at least staying here tonight. I can try in the morning but I'm not coming out of here at 1:30. I can see it. You can't. I understand I It's My Life on line. Like I gotta just make the right call for me and then they didn't like that.
[00:44:28] Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is pretty wild that they're they're trying to get you to move. I mean it is I and in the video you kind of say like, I preemptively pushed this because I wasn't yet in an emergency State, you know, you aren't in a, you were in a state that you needed a helicopter to drop in yet, you know. But you're trying to be preemptive so that it didn't come to a more serious rescue, right? And so
[00:44:53] Jonathan: but I don't know how long it takes the mobile lies, a search and rescue team. Again, I thought there might be coming from Missoula, maybe they take the day to drive down. Maybe I'm there for three, four days. You know, I don't know. So, Yeah, I hit preemptively.
[00:45:12] Tayson: I think why this is so invaluable is, I've heard both sides. I've heard guys who Snapped their their leg and hit the SOS button and literally they drop, they bring a helicopter in, they drop a guy down, he you know, meets with the the victim while the birds swerving swooping back around. And I mean they just emergency Evac amount and it was like wow. That was so like precise. These guys knew what they were doing super well trained and so it's easy to think like that's what's gonna happen. And that's why I think this story is so valuable because This is probably the more realistic potential responses, not that, not that this should be the way that goes down or anything, but like you're most likely getting Evac on the ground. You're most likely, you know, depending it's all situational. And so again so you hit this preemptively, you know, you're not in a crisis yet but you're you're headed to a crisis.
[Editor’s note: The ground-evacuation likelihood and response examples are unverified historical impressions, not predictions of current rescue capability or outcome. Response methods vary by incident, terrain, staffing, and jurisdiction.]
[00:46:07] Tayson: You can see it coming and they're trying to get you to move. You're you're putting your foot down saying like I'm not in a condition to move and You know, eventually they they end up coming down to the lake the next day to get you.
[00:46:22] Jonathan: They came down that night. It came down that night so well, it was the next day. So I hit the SOS button the night before and then they came down and then I moved to the lake the next day and they came down that day to meet me at the lake.
[00:46:36] Tayson: They eventually you were saying I'm not gonna hike up solo today so then they ended up right down
[00:46:40] Jonathan: then they were like, okay, finally, so when I said that they were like fine, welcome down, and get you and yeah, and to the point about this is, She would usually have. Again, I just got back from Nepal. So Nepal. search and rescue is what 60% of their economy. It's like, it's even go to Nepal, in hike, in the Himalayas, you have to have Insurance for body recovery. In case they got to come, get your dead body out of the mountains. They want you to have insurance. To cover that because they are coming and pulling people out of the mountains left, right? Every day. I mean, I like 50% of the people up there are getting pulled out. So if you're up there there helicopters in out, dropping on top of mountains doing everything pulling people out and this is a developing country. So I guess I was I was definitely naive thinking, okay. You know, we've got search and rescue here in the states. Everybody else does, you know, if Nepal has it? Why don't we have it? I know there's search and rescue down in Stanley like, though, it, I don't know where it's coming from, but we have it and you're right. People need to know that in the United States, we, we don't do search and rescue like they do in a lot of those places. I've talked to a lot of people that are from the Alps and those central European countries that were there they're just like yes search and rescue is Everywhere everyone has search and rescue here. It's just different here in the states.
[Editor’s note: The percentage, international comparison, and response-capability statements above are Jonathan’s unverified historical impressions. Search-and-rescue organization, cost, staffing, and methods vary by place and incident.]
[00:48:26] Tayson: Well, I mean even in our local, our local team. And they know a couple guys on it. And the people that I would want to save me in town that I know, personally, they're not on the search and rescue team. It's a volunteer team. And the people that I know that are on there. I'm like, I don't know how much experience they have. To be on us. Like it doesn't leave me super confident like personally, if I am getting in trouble, I'm texting the few people, I know that like have medical experience live in the mountains, know the mountains upside down for Right Center. Know me, you know, those kinds of things because of that. So again, you are at the mercy of whatever's, on the other end of the line, which which you don't know what it is. I would, I would hope I think.
[Editor’s note: This criticism of local volunteer capability and preference for personally selected contacts is Tayson’s 2023 opinion, not a verified assessment or response plan. Personal contacts do not replace an SOS service or qualified responders and should not attempt a hazardous extraction.]
[00:49:10] Tayson: I hope that if you needed an air vac that, at least you would have like some confidence that That there's gonna be like trained teams for that but yeah it's not an air vac situation. I think you, you are rolling the dice on, what kind of help you can get. And unfortunately, too, I think I've heard other stories where people like some of the Searcher rescue teams. you know, they get, they make it burnt out because some people are pushing the SOS Or or, you know, even calling your messaging in for, for help when they're when they're not. I don't know, like they're just like they're not they're not in a critical condition or As that makes sense. I think it's just it's all sorts. It's all over the map, right?
[Editor’s note: The “rolling the dice” characterization and claims about responder training or misuse are unverified personal impressions. Search-and-rescue capability and appropriate SOS use vary by incident and jurisdiction; follow current service and emergency guidance.]
[00:49:57] Jonathan: It is all over the map. Yeah, I had so many people, so many friends reach out to me afterwards and they said the exact same thing. Like you should have just texted me, you know, I know, I know is a big. I think we have the most Backcountry Landing strips of anyone in the lower 48. A lot of people here fly. So a lot of people were like you know, I kind of came in and got you with my Helicopter. I actually came and got you with my plane, which they kind of, but they would say that or I could have came and got you with my 18 snowmobile that I own. It would have been fun for us, you know, things like that. And so yeah, a lot of guys that I know, one of my good friends is a emergency room ICU nurse and he loves snowmobiling so a nurse that snowmobiles and the spare time and he was like, bro, why did you not call me? Like, this was my dream, I'm just like, yeah, next time I know, right?
[00:51:03] Tayson: Yeah. Cuz I mean to finish the story and then continue on this, takeaway point, they get down to you. They really don't offer help. They basically kind of Shame you of like, oh yeah, like you seemed fine to us like what you know and and then they don't really offer help, you know, carrying anything getting out of there and then you get all the way out. You get to some of those they Holly out and two one person so mobiles. For
[00:51:27] Jonathan: three people by the way, which tells you their intention.
[00:51:29] Tayson: Yeah. And then, and then, you know, then publicly on social media, they really threw out a slanderous post. Yeah. Yeah. It's just just very unprofessional through. And yeah,
[00:51:44] Jonathan: yeah so I don't think, I don't think the YouTube video would be here if that post didn't get published. It wasn't like I was out there to make an SOS video but then all of a sudden it's like that thing. Gets reshard on social media post, gets reshard on social media, you know, thousands of times and I'm getting inundated with just like they're taking it and so then I'm like, well I gotta do something so I just put that video out on YouTube and then it's like, oh my gosh, it's that A million hits. I was hoping it gets 500 like, geez. It's like all the work I do. This is the one that has to go by what? Now, God, no.
[00:52:28] Tayson: It is. It is just just crazy though. I mean, that, that video has over 3,000 comments. I just read like the top five this morning, I read. When I first watched the video months and months ago, I Um, read more of the comments but just rereading the top five, like the top five are like I work in search and rescue and this is ridiculous like what they did. Yeah. You know, and so on, so forth,
[00:52:52] Jonathan: anyone anyone what's so funny is anyone that works in search and rescue anyone with a lot of experience like anytime a post or a comment or an email came to me that said I've been working in search and rescue for 30 years. I've been working Outdoors for 20 years. I've been a guide for 15 years, every single one of those was supportive. I don't think I got one of those that was like, unsupportive. I believe I've got some constructive criticism for them like, hey obviously, you did some things you could have done better but none of them were like, dude, you're a PLS and, you know, all the other internet crap that you get. Like, those people were very like supportive. And I, I was that made me feel a lot better. That people that were like here, my credentials. This is what I think I was like, oh, thank you, like even here in yourself like you. own Outdoor Vitals and be able to hear you be like yeah man, I get it like I think I think those are the People that, that go out and actually do this and actually go into the Wilderness understands that mistakes can happen. And there's a lot going on and that's just part of what what we talked about earlier, constantly, evolving and learning.
[Editor’s note: The criticism of the responding agency and its social-media post is preserved as Jonathan and Tayson’s 2023 account; it was not independently adjudicated here.]
[00:54:03] Tayson: It and you're never thinking clearer in the moment, you know, you always. So, that's, that's what I'd love to ask you. Next is, like, in the moment versus now, what have you learned? What have you had time to internalize rethink? Like what are the takeaways, maybe starting with I don't know, like you could talk about what you could have changed about the trip in the moment, you know what, the clear head sitting on the couch in all safety, right? And then to like, what should people, what what do you now, think people should expect from carrying a Garmin. So either one of those that you want to start with,
[00:54:37] Jonathan: so, this is good about some, maybe it's just like my I think I did a lot. Good. I did a lot of good, I did a lot of things, right? I do think that hate all you want. There's a lot of things people told me to do. I was like man that was your idea is so dumb. I'm so glad I didn't do that. I mean like people were like you can eat the dehydrated food. It was like Okay, you know, dehydrated food is going to rehydrate. I was out of water. What do you think kills you first like dehydration or starving to death? Like I shouldn't have just started taking dehydrated food by the handfuls and shoving it in my mouth, right? They're like, you can eat at cold, it's like, okay water. There is 33 degrees, maybe if you find it and then the outdoor temperature is like negative 10. So you can't reheat it that way. It's just gonna be a block of ice. What I should have done this, like, with the food, if you got dehydrated food and I'm running out of water, but I should have done was, like, should have. When I was sitting by that stream, taking it by the handfuls ate it. Washed it down with the stream water. That's how I should have done it. I think, um, looking back on it, there was a lot of ways people were telling me to do it and it took me a long time to be, like, how should I have done it like making a fire? Was a lot of people said, why don't you make a fire? That was, that's a dumb idea, too, guys, unless I was sitting out there that, you know, that fires gonna sink down, I've made a fire in the snow with Flint. I had everything to make a fire. It wasn't necessary for me to make a fire like I needed to move. um, and I wasn't in A position to sit there and babysit a fire for eight hours. So that's out. So yeah, the dehydrated meals, I should have eaten those and washed them down when I found the Stream. When I finally did that was the other thing that's
[00:56:40] Tayson: a hippie? That's a good point though because that was something I didn't really think about. It's just that the outside air temperature so it's like, yeah I guess you could have put water in them and then put them inside your jacket or in a sleeping bag with you, right? Yeah. So
[00:56:55] Jonathan: so there was that if you put the cold water in the in the dehydrated meals and then put in your sleeping bag, I thought about that. but again, you're sleeping in negative 20 degrees with a cold Ice piece of like, ice water next to you. It's not the best. So I think the best way would have been to basically eat. It drink is your eating and just kind of sit there and let it's gonna rehydrate in your body, you know. So make sure you're basically washing it down and rehydrating it in your belly. I think that's the best way to do it again. It's like there's a thousand ways I could have done it. Oh, there's the one. Hey obviously, the, the biggest thing is, you know, after day two, you're starting to run low on fuel, I'm thinking, Water is around the next corner. It's around the next corner. It's around the next corner. It's around the next corner. and, And in that of just obviously going back. but, Hubris hubris man. I I know everyone says, well, why don't you turn back? Just like the person I am was like, man. I want to get there man. I'm so close, man. I can do it. I can do it, I can do it. And then it's like one step and you're down the side of the mountain and you're like, I should have turned back. And so that that I should have done differently. And then obviously the fuel source. Everyone's telling me to take more fuel, I should have taken more fuel. I don't know if I should have taken more fuel. I mean, I mean, more more so than not, I should have realized. Oh, the water sources that I thought were gonna be here are not. So I should turn around. I don't know if taking more fuel was the right move because it's just it's not. If you have to melt your snow, your water, it's bad. I don't care.
[00:59:09] Tayson: Yeah. that's caught me off guard so many times where you just think that you can melt snow and it's so it's it's insanely inefficient especially a really cold temperatures like so for instance the only time that I'll even attempt to melt snow is if I'm in a hot tent and I literally am going to be running in babysitting a fire for two or three hours because Two or three hours, you can get a couple liters of water in a hot tent on a wood burning stove. So that tells you how much heat and time it takes. But that's like me like, babysitting the stove babysitting the water. Adding more, you know, ice constantly, and it's still going to take me two hours like I probably, I wouldn't know. I'm just gonna throw a number out there that could be totally off. But like, I feel like, I get like a leader, an hour, doing that kind of crap, right? So, it's gonna be Through with the gas stove but even if it was twice as fast you can't burn your stove for 30 minutes. You know what I mean to get a leader of water? It's just so inefficient. And it's it's very easy to think in your head that it's not that way or to overestimate, you know, how quickly you can melt some water and it's yeah. It's and then once it's frozen, it creates a whole different Dynamic of like because I've carried around bottles of Frozen water that you're like this thing's useless, I can't do anything with this bottle now, you know what I mean? Like I can't. I mean I've had to drop them. I've had to put like a little bit of water inside of a mug. That and put my water bottle in there to thaw. You know what I'm saying? Like it's so it gets so ridiculous. I
