[00:00:00] Tayson: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Live Ultralight Podcast powered by Outdoor Vitals. Today, I have the pleasure of interviewing Devin Ashby from Backcountry Exposure. Not only is Devin, what I would consider a friend of mine, but he is a phenomenal YouTuber. He is a great educator, both on his channel and at a local college. And he's also been a general manager for a gear company. So he's a wealth of knowledge. And in this podcast, we dive into that wealth of knowledge. We cover things such as what it's like to be on the YouTube side of things and then transition into what I'd say kind of coming behind the curtain of a gear company and just the differences and what it takes to design a product and perspective there. We talk about his scariest story on trail where things got the most real for him and lessons learned from that. And we also ended with a few car camping tips, gear tips that I was interested in getting his perspective on. So we cover a lot of different things in this podcast. I think you guys will get a ton of value out of this. So join me as we welcome Devin back onto the podcast. He's been on here a few times and we're excited to have him on once again. Okay, enjoy this podcast and enjoy this conversation with Devin Ashby. All right, Devin, I'm super excited to have you back on the podcast. You're someone that I try to keep tabs on and communication open with because I would consider you a friend of mine as much as someone I just love to follow online and to hear what you're thinking. So great to have you back on. How are things going?
[00:01:22] Devin: Oh, it's good to be back. The last time we did this, we were in the mountains together, right? Was that the last time that we recorded?
[00:01:30] Tayson: Yes, way better than these four walls I'm confined in right now, right?
[00:01:35] Devin: I know. I'm trying to like think back to what that like scene was at the edge of the lake. Just enjoy, enjoy that experience. But no, it's good. Happy to be here and chat and just enjoy the next little bit together.
[00:01:55] Tayson: Yeah. Well, I wanted to dive backwards a little bit and I don't know if I've ever heard like your true origin story of YouTube. And so today I went back and I just like looked at your oldest video, right? Your very oldest video.
[00:02:10] Devin: Oh no. Oh no.
[00:02:11] Tayson: Which was a hands -only, right? Like your hands are in the picture and you're talking about this old, this stove, right? It was from nine years ago, man. Which is kind of crazy, right? Like I started, basically I started Outdoor Vitals nine years ago. So we were really getting into this whole scene maybe around the same time. But we'd love to just hear what inspired you to even make that video or to make any videos and start putting them up online.
[00:02:39] Devin: Yeah. Okay. So let me go back. This probably goes back to before I had like really stuck my teeth in to what I was doing for college. So I had, I had started as a photography major in college. And then I decided at one point that I'm like, dude, I don't freaking want to work for myself. Yet here I am working for myself now. But at the time I was like 23 years old. I don't want to do this. And so I had a close friend that was like, hey, I'm in this program called Outdoor Recreation Management. And so you love the outdoors. This would be a good opportunity for you to just pursue what you're passionate about, which I know is rock climbing and hiking and fishing. And I'm like, there's a college degree for outdoor recreation. Like what? What is this? Yeah, right. So I then met my wife. We got married. We moved into our first like real place by ourselves. And I had started to like, really sink my teeth into what I was doing in my degree at the university, which was outdoor recreation management. And I just became obsessed with gear and with hiking. And it's not like it was an overnight obsession. It's something that I've always been passionate about, like through my whole childhood. But I got to the point where I was like, well, I want to start a blog. And that's when blog blogs were like super popular. And YouTube had not really yet kicked off the way that it is now. And so I started writing because I think my wife was kind of tired of me, chatting about gear all the time. secure, look at this tent like look at this sleeping bag and this cool sleeping pad that weighs 12 ounces and like all this fun stuff and So I started writing a Blog to like be that creative Outlet, you know? And then I had the thought like well what if I did some kind of visual aspect to support my written reviews on my blog, and so if it feels so cliche to say this because I feel like anybody that starts a YouTube channel, says like I had no intentions of starting a YouTube channel but that was not it was supposed to be a companion to my written reviews and not the Purpose. Like I'm gonna, yeah, complementary to what I was writing so the people could see visually A better represent was like a party here scale.
[00:05:58] Tayson: Yeah, that wasn't like a part of your degree, or anything that was just something. You're like I have so much passion around this. Just want to share some of the stuff that I'm learning.
[00:06:07] Devin: Yeah, I was like a byproduct of me being consumed by that mentality of like this is what I'm doing and I'm that kind of personality where when I get stoked about something I just go all in and I research the crap out of it and just like become consumed by it and which, Has been interesting because I've now been doing YouTube for close to 10 years. Like, October, I think it'll be 10 years, which is right nuts and that's not normal behavior for me to be on us.
[00:06:45] Tayson: Like I was something like that. Like yeah, to stick with something for that long and so it's not easy making videos. Like I have a lot of people, even ask us of like, why do you think like your brand makes these videos and does this in like no one else does? And I'm like, like I've thought about this and my only reason is like, because it's effing hard, you know, like, it's so much time. Its time. Its commitment, it's consistency. And it's like, I've made, like, thousands of videos between like, YouTube ads, you know, stuff like that. And it's like, no. There's nothing easy about it, man. I mean, they're just really isn't so to stick with something for 10 years like you're talking about and it's in your format, right? Because up until recently which we'll talk about, this is been something you're doing after hours, man, like that you're doing this on your personal time, you know of what other people would consider their own personal time, right? So it's it's a commitment and it's a huge. I mean, you should definitely celebrate hitting 10 years of consistency and uploading.
[00:07:48] Devin: Yeah, well, I appreciate that. There's a lot. I guess I'll say, like, as I'm seeing thinking about it, what has made it feel like I can stay consistent and keep doing it is The relationships like the opportunities that have come from doing it because it's not just like, I don't know. From I think the the viewer standpoint or the viewer perspective, it's like oh yeah he's just posting a new video about gear or a backpacking trip or whatever once a week or maybe multiple times a week and that's what I'm seeing. But like, on my end as a Creator, the relationships. That have come from reaching out to a company Outdoor Vitals. Being a good example or even like when I was working in the climbing industry, I like had so many friends because Utah's, like a mecca for outdoor companies. there's when you're working, when you're working in the industry, your Social Circle is pretty small when it comes to like the amount of people that you can connect with. That also work in the industry. So, like my ability to contact a friend that worked to Black Diamond, for example, like hey, What's the chance I could get a piece of apparel or one of your tents? To share on my on my YouTube channel. So there was like a little bit of that benefit of me having access to that.
[00:09:27] Tayson: Yes, I was gonna ask this. I was going to ask this point right here which is like you're a Gearhead, you love gear, you love comparing it. You love specs on it. Yeah you know you geek out about it, right? And so my question kind of is like Do you love? Gear side of the outdoors more than you even love. Like sometimes. Feel time. Of course. I don't know how to like, say that a different way like that doesn't sound like cuz I don't mean that a negative way but like there's a You like like the dude I do it. So for instance, if I'm under a lot of stress, I will start to daydream about purchases about like, you know what? If I set up an adventure like a touring motorcycle, and adventure bike, and I started doing all these huge Back Road country, you know, loops and camped off the motorcycle or or what if, you know, what, if I got a boat, and I went through all of Lake Powell on this boat, and we camped off the boat. And we, you know what I mean? I'll start to like, do this as a way of, like, coping stress, Etc, and other people do it, too. Right? There's a reason why these things are channels exist. Have Hundreds of thousands of views, you know? So I want to post that question to you of like how much of what you do is like because you love being up to date on the product, getting new product testing, you know, like like that side of it versus just like the massive, I don't know, like the disconnect or whatever it is that like calls used specifically to the outdoors.
[00:10:56] Devin: It. Yeah, that's that's such a good question because It really is. Too passion's, that become one. If if that makes sense. Yeah, so scenario one is I personally really enjoy even though I would never pursue any kind of like engineering, I think my brain in a way works a little bit like an engineer's brain where I enjoy the Tactical, like not tactical, but like tactile aspect of design and how a design becomes a functional product and then that product then creates some kind of performance or opportunity for an experience in the backcountry. The feels really like whoa, Devin Getting Fancy with, with gear over here. But it's, it's, it's just like the idea that Somebody has an idea to create something. It gets designed in a computer program and then it actually gets manufactured and then it does what the person said it would do. And I like that aspect a lot about gear. Even though sometimes it's really simple like a shirt that you put on that like helps keep you dry and cool or adds a little bit of warmth or something. Is technical of a tent that has crazy geometry. Things about it that are just like. How do you know how to put that together? Like the math. That's involved. The brain power. Like, that's where I get kind of lost in. I could never be an engineer. but, That's the gear side. Of things that I really like, because I just like that. Analyzing that whole process essentially. But then on the flip side, it kind of goes back through like my whole childhood of spending time outside with my parents, and my siblings and going camping with friends and just having outdoor experiences and enjoying so much like what those memories are, but I want to go create more of those memories and it just, it's interesting to me that it's kind of like the perfect marriage of the two concepts and I think that that goes with any other thing like You like race cars, you're going to go to the race track and watch race cars, but you might also love tinkering on your own cards to try to. like, Part of it in that way. Yeah exactly. I would say to
[00:13:59] Tayson: that, like being able to kind of connect, two different passions or Hobbies is probably what's kept. You consistent too with with YouTube and and staying a part of this, right? Because anytime you can connect a few different motivations into something, you're just that much more motivated to stick with it for a long time and be consistent. And it's not going away, right? It's like, it's not like this is a part-time job that you picked up to make a little extra cash. It's like, no, this is like who you are and that's not going to change. You know, if you decided to never post a video again, you would still go Outdoors all the time, right? So, it's absolutely. Yeah. I think that there's, that is kind of where the magic comes in and it's It's what sets you apart is your channel. Too is coming in with the very technical logical. Brain there's there's YouTube personalities out there that are much more just entertainers. There's there's ones out there that are maybe a hybrid. There's you know but like definitely on your channel. I know that when I watch a video that you have reviewed and gone through I know that you've gone into the technical side of it and you've really compared, you know, the field of what's available out there, you're looking into some of the components and so Yeah, I think I think it's just a really cool blend of your passions there. I've kind of the same way. Like as a kid, I I you could have picked up and this is kind of, this is going. I'm gonna bring up motorcycle twice in one place. As a kid though, I grew up kind of in a small almost farming community and like dirt bikes were like the cool thing, right? Like it was to have a little dirt bike was a cool thing and so like you could take up like any brochure from like Yamaha or Honda. And I could tell you, like, the dry weight of every motorcycle and the wet weight of every motorcycle in the suspension travel, and the fuel tank size. And, you know, I like, I just love to, like, piece all this stuff together and it's really interesting to me, and it's so funny, how, I don't know, like, some of I think some people just have that type of I don't know mentality in some ways and, and You know, even when it's starting out the company, it's like 10 years ago, I didn't, I thought I could be a designer, you know, you don't know what you don't know, but it was just one of those were like, my mind always worked that way of wanting to piece things together and anyways, but I this leads perfect into the next question, I have okay, okay? Because you're a YouTuber for years and years. Um you know you're getting out all the time, you're viewing, all these products all the time and then you have this opportunity to go and work for a gear company and you get to step onto the other side of this threshold per se. And it's a threshold that people I will say this people that are on one side of it, understand this and people on the other side, understand this. I would say that in some ways. Maybe I can see both sides a little bit but just from spending time with Bulls but like so easy from an outside perspective to just be like Well, I don't you design it this way, why don't you do this? Why don't you do that? You know like constantly like well you could have done the keyboard Warriors just like making design suggestions all the time and then there's a different side of like being in, you know, on the other side of social work like okay to design that would mean this. This this this this and then that takes away from this this this this this. And we have to Source this this this this this this this like it gets so crazy. And so I want to kind of hear about your perspective of what it was like to go from like an outside keyboard. I'll call you like a keyboard designer or like a like you know someone who's like dreamed about designing to like putting stuff into production. What do you think? People don't know about that?
[00:17:42] Devin: I think. there's just a I'm trying to think how to how to freeze it. in a way that like brings brings it all together, like, full circle. Because what, I think is unique about my position and where I ended up. was not the idea that, oh, I'm a passionate Outdoorsman and I have this like, Technical experience of a lot of different products and that is the strength that I'm bringing by leaving leaving the climbing industry and then going into a backpack manufacturer. It was. The the desire to leave, what I was doing. In in my position at The Climbing Gym. As a manager to bring management experience to the company that I was working for. And it just so happened that I also have like that technical brain in the experience of like reviewing and having used a bunch of products. So like a little bit of a unicorn situation where I had even started my own Gear Company back in 2018, I was designing gear. I taught myself how to sew so there was like all of these little Things that like my fingers, my hands were in that brought like okay this is a small cottage gear company. So I'm bringing experience and all levels but the primary factor was like I had been a manager, a general manager managing employees in a business. Successful for eight years. I'm bringing that experience into helping manage this growing Cottage company.
[00:19:45] Tayson: Yeah, I mean so it was like a it is a unicorn situation where I mean you were doing you had your hands in so many parts of the business there, right from customer service to shipping marketing to design management. Yeah. Selling like all these things, right? Like you were and that's what startups need, right? They need someone who can do it, all right? Like that is the most valuable. Person you could ever have in a startup, right? But yeah, I'm curious again, and I actually just kind of skipped over the fact that you had, you know, been selling some of your own product and designing a product as well. So, I guess, I'm just curious what you're what your thoughts are though. Are on like, what? Everyone over here, that is buying, you know, consumers versus designers. And what what Gap you think there is there that would be interesting for people to like understand more fully because I feel like there's, there's just a gap there that people. They don't understand, you know again you see those comments like well why didn't you do this or yeah.
[00:20:46] Devin: And I and I skirted around your question a little bit. Try to bring some context. But yeah, I I think that What? What the consumer doesn't. Fully grasp is the amount of work that actually goes into the design of a product. And I think it's really easy, especially like in the cottage industry. When you don't have, Massive moqs for like minimum order, quantities people. That don't know it mlq, I've got that good. Yeah, but just like daily vocab when, when a company is a very large brand and they're obviously not producing in-house versus like a small company. That, that is, I think it's easy for a consumer to be like, well, you're like, you're making this by hand, anyway. Just add a couple of these Loops to this, or add this to the product and it'll be fine. Like, it's Nonetheless. Alright but what I think it's missed and understanding aspect is well, if you add that Loop, That hasn't been strength tested that hasn't been field tested to see how it actually functions. And you're almost like, you can't just on a win. Make changes like that. when you're trying to scale and grow a company because what if it fails What if it has this? Like catastrophic issue and you're out on a through hike or you're like super remote in the wilderness? And now the gear that you have to rely on is not. now, functioning it's like totally messed up and it may have been because of like one little change that was made to the product and so that's where I think that there's a little bit of a disconnect of There's a lot of research that goes into. How something is designed how it's produced? And In some instances sure? Yeah. You can get away with like quick changes or like not field testing something but you're running on. Thin lines when you do stuff like that. So I don't know if that that's my perspective but I know that there's you go into way greater detail on that on that question, but
[00:23:30] Tayson: Yeah, and I think we've covered it on the podcast. I'm sure we'll cover it again but I just kind of want to get your your perspective because you were kind of In some ways the outside or that stepped in and you know, kind of saw this different lens, this different perspective more like a Flash versus for me. It's been you know gradually year over year, you know type of yeah.
[00:23:52] Devin: And I think the only thing else that I would add is like a customer. The consumer might see. Well, this company is doing this. And why can't you also do this? I'll use the trampoline style back panel. Of the backpack. Yeah, the number of times that I feel did that question in customer service like white my back gets so sweaty. Why can't I why can't you just make a trampoline style backpack? Well, you we don't know the production process for how that's developed the equipment that's required to be able to make that happen. Like just the intricacies of some of those production processes that you look at your like, oh yeah, just take a piece of like stretchy Fabric and put some binding on it and attach the Four Corners that you'll be good to go like no, it's way more intense than that
[00:24:57] Tayson: and That's just the size, man. There's friends. You have to test. There's Front cost to even you know begin sampling it. If you don't have the right equipment, there's there's all sorts of things, and then there's, and then there's just design philosophy, right? Because I think that's the thing that people don't often get is, everything's a trade-off, right? So if I do this, then I can't do this. And if I do this, then I can't do this. And so because, I mean, we'll get a similar question and for us it's not so much that we can't make it test. It, produce it, it's more. It goes against our design philosophy of like the best carrying backpack. The best load management backpack. We'll take that over a little, you know, a few degrees you know cooler back. I mean if you're me you're sweating anyways like my back maybe a little bit less a little bit more cool off the like I'm drenched in sweat, no matter what. Right so like so there's just that there's always these pros and cons because as soon as you start to push the all of your load stuff, you know a few inches off of your back. Then that means you don't have the heaviest most important items right next to your back which is typically the best place for those in load carry management. But it is it's people I think I think what Probably made it not a stark contrast for you to step in and whatnot is because you were, you were already trained to look at that. Well before you came into the industry I'm sure I wasn't like a
[00:26:24] Devin: yeah.
[00:26:24] Tayson: Oh now I get it it was probably like yep that makes total sense. I understood that from before but there's a lot of people I guess that that just maybe don't think that way but it is. It's a it's always a give and take with every single choice on any product.
[00:26:37] Devin: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:38] Tayson: So I want to, I want to ask this question, you mentioned there that, you know, you could be miles into a backpacking trip and you could have a gear piece fail on you and what that would be like you said it with a little bit of authority. So I'd love to hear like like a scary story like a time when you were out there and you're just You had a situation unfold and you're just like, holy smokes, you know, this is going on and how like, what? That was like. So yeah, story time. Let's see here.
[00:27:08] Devin: Okay. it's funny that this comes to mind like right off the bat because I was not prepped these questions.
[00:27:17] Tayson: Yeah, that's Like, makes me these prompts and then, like I get done and I'm like, oh yeah, there was some props there. I totally forgot to So we probably confused like every guest that comes on this show
[00:27:29] Devin: know, it's cool. I like it. Okay, so towards the end of my College college, career, or studies, or whatever you want to call it, I was backpacking on a trip for a class that was called outdoor leadership. And I was in the field with a couple of my best friends in the program, and the professor, and instructor for the class, she's amazing. She's just like one of the the stand-up like She has an incredible resume of experience having worked for like NOLS. This this is important because Like her field experience is so extensive that like she's so level-headed. That you would think there's nothing that could happen. To her that would like make her lose her. Cool. And not be this like, super professional type of individual that you like, you're just so level-headed and professional all the time that You can't break that. Barrier from her. So, we were on a five-day backpacking trip in the corridor, the Paria River down in southern Utah, northern Arizona. It's like 46 miles of hiking to get from the White House Trailhead to Lees Ferry and it's phenomenal if you ever have
[00:29:08] Tayson: so high on my list, it's it's got to get done soon.
[00:29:11] Devin: Okay, let's put that as a checkbox for us to go. Do you need to happen? I'll look at permits for us.
[00:29:21] Tayson: I just drove past that and I was just like, wait, am I going to get back here? Like, I gotta get down this. Yeah.
[00:29:28] Devin: It's incredible. So the Paria River and it's the first like 20 miles or so was really narrow. There's not a lot of high ground opportunities. We didn't experience a flash flood necessarily but the flow of the river was running significantly higher than you would probably. Like really want to choose to hike through the canyon at that time. So it was running at the time at 90 CFS. So cubic feet per second, which at some of the narrowest sections of the canyon. It's like, 10 feet across. So it's pretty narrow. and, To put that into perspective. 90 CFS is running at about Knee Deep to thigh deep anytime you were in the river. and, So any higher than that, then you're risking like, pretty scary situations. So yeah, getting swept down, or just like you're wet all the time and the sun is not as present, especially at that time. It was March because spring break. It was March, it was cold. The, the flow of the river like, temperature wise was like cold enough that you didn't want to be in it for a very long time. And there on just the first day of hiking, you hike from the White House, Trailhead to the Confluence of Buckskin Gulch which Buckskin Gulch is the longest Slot Canyon. It's like over 12 miles and there's a really excellent campsite about a quarter mile up from the confluences of buckskin. But what we found ourselves? Having to navigate was because the river was running so high, it's super muddy. You can't see through the water at all and we realized that we were in this kind of like Boulder Jam kind of section. It's like 4:00 in the afternoon. It's March the sun has already like crossed the threshold of long gone. You're not going to see see the sun anymore. And we were in a spot that we had essentially take our packs off and weighed up to about chest Deep in water to to get through to get through this section, hold snow runoff water. Super cold. And at the time we were like no, this is like this is fun. It we get her take a Pax off and like this is cool. We get to go for like a little swimming anyways.
[00:32:23] Tayson: Yeah
[00:32:23] Devin: but it was then like I think that this is pretty common where you're in a situation where you're having a really good time and then like, boom, something happens and it completely changes. What is taking place where now you're like no I'm managing a completely different kind of situation now that I was five minutes ago. And I think it's like important from a risk management standpoint. To like know that that can happen at any time fast. So we get through the like really deep section. We've got our packs back on and then one of the other students, Close to the edge of. the wall and it just like because you can't see where your walking, there's a huge where the current had like swept out all the all the sediment and it was like, Chest deep in this, this guy's like, six foot four. He's he's tall and it's like up almost to his neck. and, I mean, he had kind of like tripped. And stuff. And then well, I should go back. I don't think he was quite that deep. I don't want to over exaggerate because it might be getting a little detail mixed up there. It might have just been how deep it was on him going through the waiting but regardless like got into a section that was really deep and Like more than more than waist deep. And then the instructor She tripped and fell. like, Straight up. Soaked in the water. And it's just now in a position of I am soaking wet and we make the turn at the Confluence of Buckskin and there is a ripping wind coming through the canyon which it's now like we're all soaking wet. This, the sun is gone were hungry or cold like this is full on recipe for hypothermia situation. and I think that, like, if it hadn't been for, Well, let me back up once the instructor when she fell in the water. Heard demeanor changed from like this, like we just need to be smart about what we're doing to like, oh, crap. Like this is not a good situation and the urgency and like the level of patience. It wasn't like disrespectful, but it was just like I I am in a bad spot and I need all of you to basically like you got to do what I say right now kind of thing.
[00:35:27] Tayson: Yeah.
[00:35:28] Devin: And so, Fortunately, we were able to get camp set up, we were able to get out of our wet clothes, get into dry clothes, get some food in us. And real risk of hypothermia wasn't as present as it could have been, but I think that that is also just part of like, Having somebody that is so experienced in the field and a group of people that also have a lot of field experience. To so be like okay no this is, this is bad. Like we have to change something now.
[00:36:03] Tayson: So you're able to get out of the river and into dry clothes. Like, were you able to kind of just stop where you were at and make a camp or what?
[00:36:09] Devin: Yes, we were able to like hike that 8th mile, quarter mile or whatever it was up to this like rise of a Big Sandy area that has a nice campsite that has some tree coverage to get out of the wind and be able to set up and and get out of wet clothes.
[00:36:30] Tayson: yeah, I was, I was wondering like, I mean, if you had still x amount of miles to go on the river or something like that, it gets It's a lot worse, right? Like if like I'm just curious. What what is your response? in this scenario, then say you did have to at least You know, be down there a little bit longer before you were able to fly. Like let's say you're looking for an exit now out of this Canyon but there's not one right where you're at. What do you do? Do you just pick up the pace? Do you think that like my thought was like, you know, maybe putting on a rain jacket in the sense of like, yeah, I like you're already wet on the inside but maybe it could. Just hold that heat or like the wind hitting you, you know I mean like keep that from getting, I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud here but like what do you what do you think? Some of the responses are options are in this kind of a scenario?
[00:37:20] Devin: I I think and this is coming from because I've gone through several Wilderness. First, responder like training courses that There has to be, especially in a group setting has to be a mental check. Like checking in. Okay, this is what's happening right now. Where are you at? Like, how are you feeling? Are you? Just like, I'm not. Okay, and I need to stop or can we keep walking like just checking in with yourself and your group members? So that you can see where each other are at before. You're just like going to problem-solving mode and then trying to solve problems that aren't actually Solutions and could be creating worse. Situations. So maybe it's based off of that mental check and seeing where everybody's at. You are. Then trying to find the closest place to camp. or you just set up for a couple hours and get out of wet clothes and you get into a sleeping bag on on top of a tarp and you get yourself warmed up a bit and that's the option to be able to then put wet clothes back on and hide and to your next camp like think there's a lot of options but just being smart to like not overreacting to what is happening. The Trent making calculated decisions based off of What is actually happening and then understanding the consequences or the potential risks that could come from the decisions that are made.
[Editor’s note: This 2023 canyon account and the wet-clothing, warming, camp, and group-decision comments are personal and educational recollections, not a complete hypothermia or cold-water emergency protocol. Conditions vary; use current route information, qualified training, and emergency guidance.]
[00:39:13] Tayson: yeah, I think you bring up probably the most valid concern, which is stopping and observing and checking in mentally, right? I know I've had it, but like I've experienced it where you start to get almost like a brain fog of Rationale or you get fixated on something in a situation where it's kind of like this is the option but then in retrospect, you're like, oh, there were other options or, or you'll have a moment where like, whoa, like just stop for a second and think. Assess yourself before running into something. I mean if you seen that a lot or if you kind of experience that first hand, you're with yourself or with students, I don't mention this but you know you've you're an Caterer. You've taken a lot of new Backpackers through different School courses out there. But I mean, if you seen that, or what it would have, what do you, what do you have? I guess to speak on in terms of kind of that process and knowing when to stop and check yourself mentally or when to just be like, hey, like don't rush slow down instead of go faster for just a second.
[00:40:20] Devin: Yeah, so like a tool that I use and my super close best friend. That's also an instructor, he and I both teach backpacking at the University. He and I use a tool with our students that when we reach a certain point. If an event occurs or if it's like late in the day. And there's A couple options. We will have everybody close their eyes and you either thumbs up or thumbs down. And if one person, if one person in the group gives a thumbs down, then you stop and make decisions based off of what what is happening at that time. And the reason for like closing eyes is so that That person. Feels comfortable sharing that feeling. Because if you, if you were to be like, there's ten people here and The one person that is like in agonizing pain and not enjoying themselves isn't going to speak up. Right. And then you can find yourself in even worse situations because of that.
[00:41:35] Tayson: So I think, yeah, I'm laughing because we do it probably the exact wrong way on some of Its peer pressure City out there to, you know, stay hard get after it, you know, like like yeah,
[00:41:56] Devin: I mean this this is also coming from the perspective of, I've got the students that have never heard a pack before,
[00:42:02] Tayson: right? Like first time on our team would not speak up like, oh, if people don't want to keep going to let us know, at least on my team, right? Yeah. So, in some of these bigger more intense, Or potentially, you know, more more risky hikes. But yeah, I'm just thinking back to like conversations we've had on the trail where it's like, It's, there's probably a decent amount of like, you can do it. We can go farther, come on, like, well, you know, like, just like pushing people. So, but no, I think that's a really valid valid way to do it, especially with a group. And especially with new people, I think that is really, really smart. I mean, you show some of that you show some of that.
[00:42:47] Devin: thought process stuff from like your I know those videos of you, hiking The High Line. The first time you were like, second those storms. There's I don't remember what was being said, but there's like you and Tyler and Brigham trying to make decisions, right? And at some point, someone has to be the authority. Somebody has to say, okay, I've gathered all of The the opinions. This is what we're actually going to do. And that's that's another thing that even just going out with a group of friends. Essentially defining like who's leading the group? Nothing like there has to be a quote unquote group leader. but I think sometimes that falls on someone by default based off of Who planned the trip? Who knows the route like that kind of stuff.
[00:43:53] Tayson: Because you have two things. You have two people planning or else you have no one planning, right? I'm sure. Yeah, fine. Yeah. Well, yeah,
[00:44:01] Devin: but even just like at the trailhead having that that quick discussion like okay who's in charge if we need to make decisions who's who's going to be the final saying? Yeah kind of kind of thing, I think that's super healthy and a great way to approach. Good, risk, management and decision-making in the backcountry. And like, I think it's funny as well, because sometimes we'll talk about like, These scary things that take place and that when you go on a trip, you like have to have this mindset. I think it's just like, understanding that risk management is a tool to have in your back pocket and is not like the guiding star. Necessarily of like I'm gonna go spend the weekend in the uintas or wherever and I'm going to make sure I have my risk management brain turned on like now. It's just right? It's just there as a tool for when it's needed to be part of that discussion.
[00:45:06] Tayson: Yeah, and I think, I think so I want to try to like still pinpoint how to how to describe this because it is it like you do things preparation wise to mitigate risk. And again, I don't think backpack is inherently dangerous, but it can be, you know, if you're not at least going in wisely, I would say. And I and I also want to be careful with this too because, you know, my whole goal in doing anything that I do is to get more people outdoors and to experience the outdoors. So, I'm not trying to scare anyone off here, but I think there's there's things to be learned about here and so, I guess what I want to ask then is, has there ever been a trip where you've had to call the trip short turn back and you've kind of had to like get to that point mentally where you're like, Hey, I'm not in a good position and you're able to stop recognize that kind of do that mental check and be like, you know what, I need to. I need to climb out of here. I need to like, what does that look like? And when do you get to that point where you are able to stop and check? Right? Because if you can't, if you can't trigger that, like, hey, I need to stop and check this before, diving in deeper, then you do, you can create, you know, a mountain out of a molehill if it was mitigated. Right. So yeah, I'm curious if you've ever had to like have that mental conversation. Turn around on a trip. What that process is like for you.
[00:46:30] Devin: yeah, two weeks ago, that recent I joined a friend for like his annual birthday hike celebration up in the Uintas and I, when I was, Recently on like a four-day trip in the Sawtooth mountains. I had kind of noticed this about my body as well but The the first day hiking in two weeks ago, in the Uintas, I was like and my like I just feel fatigued, like my body is just tired. And I noticed that, I mean, it wasn't like a crazy gain of elevation by any means, we're climbing up to like 10,500 feet up into into the basin. But my heart rate walking at about a two two and a half mile an hour Pace, was it 170?
[00:47:40] Tayson: They're dehydrated or something else is going on
[00:47:42] Devin: something something. Not normal. Yeah, so I'm like man. I like I'm walking at what should be a normal pace for me? and yeah, I I have a heart murmur that's benign and that's like part of something that I have to to manage in my own my own body. Like I should not be hitting 170 like even 175 at a gradual incline. Like something was just not right. So I kind of like Thought, well, I haven't really hiked it elevation this year. Could just be my body is struggling with the elevation. We got to camp. We had hiked nine miles to get to where we were at and ate dinner. And I felt like, okay. And I went and had a fishing session and caught like 30 fish in 20 minutes, like it was nuts. It was like one of the most like fun fishing experiences, I've had on a backpacking trip ever. Climbing the tent, like I'm worn out. I go to sleep, and I sleep terrible. Like, I just did not get good sleep and I'm like, well, that's to be expected. I'm on a
[00:49:02] Tayson: new speaker down a second because there's, there's there can be lessons. I feel like in that. So when you say terrible sleep, What is that like is it almost like you? Can't calm yourself down to fall asleep? Like no,
[00:49:14] Devin: like I was able to sleep but I was waking up a lot. okay, and what I've been able to and this is like getting dirty with Of God through, I was just gonna watch. I don't know how scientific to take the the Sleep score and information that this watch like provides information wise. But I do notice that when it when my watch says that I didn't get enough REM cycle, That that equals terrible sleep. I may have slept long enough, but like, my body didn't have a chance to recover.
[00:49:56] Tayson: Essentially, if you look at like, your body, your God, what's it called? Body Score—no, the Body Battery. Body Battery? Yes, yeah, that's pulling it up.
[00:50:05] Devin: Yeah, yeah. And so it was like At 13 or something. When I went to bed and it had only raised like, 43 or 47 points. Like, so I think I had
[00:50:19] Tayson: that's not, that's not like terrible, that's not uncommon, I should say when I, A lot of times when I go to altitude, if I'm not super careful, my body battery can get down to like five, and like stay there for a couple days or, oh, because I do, I do the same thing. I track with the watch pretty heavily to see like my resting heart rate. I found that's a big indicator. So like when I was asking you about sleep for me, A lot of times my heart will like get high and stay high and so then I can't fall asleep with my resting. Heart rate is like 80 beats per minute when at home it's 45 when I'm sleeping and so there's some real value to just knowing your heart rate. Like it's it's pretty wild so yeah. Okay. So that asleep tossing and turning not getting into the full cycles of sleep.
[00:51:04] Devin: Yeah. And then when I got up and started moving around like okay, like I I've had several nights of bad sleep like that before. This isn't a big deal like I'll just wake up and get moving and get some breakfast to me and I'll start to feel better so then I like make some breakfast and I'm like, yeah, I just Really like it's not changing and I'm not feeling so bad that like, yeah, I should go back to the car but it was just like I couldn't pinpoint exactly what I was feeling. My body just did not feel good. I didn't have cold symptoms. I didn't have a runny nose. I didn't have a headache. I didn't have nausea or like, Standard elevation like acute Mountain, sickness type of symptoms. So I'm like, can it really be the elevation and I just couldn't couldn't pin down what it was and I and I thought to myself for like five minutes, I'm like Would I be better off going back to the car? Because the plan for the day was to climb up over a pass and like 11,500 feet. And then go down into another Basin and then go up to a lake that's like 10 miles from the car. And then the next day we would hike, 10 miles. From the lake to the car. And I'm like, trying to just process. Do I hiked nine miles today? That's all downhill. And just call it early and know that I'll feel good enough to make that happen or do. I create some other plan? So I told my friend, I was like, I don't feel good, I don't know like what dependent to but Like, I think I should walk back to the car. and when I was concerned about with that is, I didn't want to ruin his plans. And I think that that's like that's a real thing that you're worried. About. Like upsetting somebody else to ruin their plans or or whatever. And so we talked about it for a bit and we agreed that He would climb up over the past, take our time, and then go down and walk closer to the car and just have a shorter hike out for the for the next day. well, that didn't even happen, like, We we did do up over the past. And went down and that whole time. I'm just like, and I am not enjoying myself. I'm not having a good time. It's beautiful. And like, moments of this is, this is fun. But in reality, it was like my body hurts. Like, I just don't feel good. I don't really want to be doing this anymore, and so, when we got to the point that we decided, We're gonna start looking for Camp right here. It would be like, four miles from the car. And at that time it was like, 6:30 p.m. So it had taken us most of the day to get up over the past and down to that point. and then, my friend realized that, Over a river crossing or where we have crossed the river, he had dropped his phone. like it wasn't on his body anymore and it's like, oh my gosh. So we like hiked back to where we think it happened and ended up finding the phone, which is super nice but that took like 45 minutes into this time. It was like past 7:00 and just looked at each other like because of how much condensation there was last night. All of our sleep gear was wet. The sun was already down and we were like we're just gonna walk back to the car. so we walked the four miles back to the car and did 13 miles that day or 14 miles,
[00:55:31] Tayson: Yeah. So and when you I mean so what it like like when you get back and you look back at all that any I don't know, like is it just like you don't know what was wrong, still with what was going on with you?
[00:55:43] Devin: And yeah, like I I felt a lot of regrets in a bad for making that trip. Not as enjoyable as it could have been for my friend because He didn't get to like check off some of the boxes that he had wanted to do on his checklist for his birthday. um, but when I got home, even like two days later, I was like I just don't I don't feel good and certain starting to feel better. Like I feel better now, but I don't know, maybe it was so strange.
[00:56:24] Tayson: So what what was was there a moment where you just really realized? Like because that's that's actually an interesting one because a lot of times like you get into like really sticky situations where it's like, okay, I need to stop right. Like, I don't know, I have a video out there. It's called like 41 below freezing and I get to a point where I'm like, scrambling to get my camp set up. The wind is blowing and it's below zero degrees. And I realized that like I was so focused on what I was doing that. I hadn't even put my jacket on and I was like, freezing. I was getting really, you know what I mean? It's just like, just mental fog, right? Yeah. Like that's like one of those like, oh, like take a second to assess the situation, put your jacket on, and feel better, but like this one's kind of a sneaky one, right? So like was there a like, was there just that moment where you're like, where it was very clear to you. The something wasn't right and this could get worse.
[00:57:16] Devin: what I was concerned about was going up higher in elevation And being at like, on a pass scrambling over Boulder fields. And my body not being in the right. State physically to be able to navigate through that stuff, appropriately, and then leading to like an injury. Losing my balance and rolling down the the past or because it is passed. Doesn't have a trail going up. It it's like a full-on scramble. Like hands all fours. Like, yeah. And So I think if, if there was more symptoms of something that was presenting as an actual like elevation sickness or I am sick with something else, that, that would have been a like key indicator of know. I'm not going to continue. And it's better for me to just call it. Situation. But there was just like, yeah, I'm just really tired. Like my body is just fatigued. Mm-hmm. But if I can keep calories in me and I can get up over the past and then we're just downhill at that point. That's where I felt confident enough to continue. Right, right. But I think. I think you have to recognize. When something is not going, right? To go ahead and start considering what the options are and not let something get too far. and that can be hard, like, you're you have like, maybe A super introverted person that has a hard time speaking up, when they're in a group setting or even when you're Solo in your life, know? I like some of the fever, right? Like I'm gonna do this, I'm going to prove my point to myself and then you're like, crap, I went too far.
[Editor’s note: The fatigue, heart-rate, altitude, wearable, sleep, and symptom interpretations above are personal historical observations, not a diagnosis or universal threshold. Unexplained or concerning symptoms require conservative judgment and qualified medical guidance.]
[00:59:39] Tayson: I, I can resonate with that, for sure. It's it's it's interesting. I mean, it's tough and so we run the 100-mile challenge group and I was just reading through a bunch of those entries. Pretty recently, And a lot of people are newer to backpacking or this is for sure. Like their biggest trip that they're planning their biggest adventure. and it's very interesting, I mean, I don't know percentage twice how many, but I feel like it was like half of the people. Had to alter their plans, right? Like half had to alter their interest. They couldn't. We couldn't make the mileage. We were planning or there was a whatever a fire that happened, or there was one of the group members, you know, something happened or I mean, it was, it was a lot. It was a lot and and that's not different from the year prior either. So that's kind of two years of data like that. And so I think anytime you're setting out to do something brand new to you, meaning like a new Trail or a new maybe people are traveling across the country to hike in the west versus the east or anytime that there's You know, you just pushing boundaries that you haven't pushed before. I think there is a high probability of needing a plan b or plan C and so I think I think, yeah, I like sometimes you can think of those beforehand and have those already planned and that's something that we do coach people to do. But, you know, just like you're saying too like Just rolling those around. Your head earlier is sometimes better because a lot of times when you when you delay making a choice, you make the choice worse, the options worse, right? Farther down the road. So
[01:01:13] Devin: yeah, yeah. That's really. I think there's so, two, two points of Like, personal check-in opportunities. When you're on the trail are and like I like to to use these because it doesn't matter what your experience level is. It's a good opportunity to see where you're at. The first is, You stop for lunch. Just have a check in with yourself but also with the groups that you're with like how's everybody feeling? Take your shoes off, check your feet like yeah check for blisters like all of all of that and just like how do I actually feel right now? Do I need to eat? More and get more calories in me to be able to make it to camp. And it's not feel like I'm totally worn out. Because there's this, there's this idea that like around 4:00 is where the humbles start. You start to to mumble and stumble and like, because you're hungry, you're tired. Like you've been on the trail all day. You haven't had enough calories because you ate lunch. And you think, oh, I'm going to just be good for the next five hours. When no, actually, you still need like 400 calories. To get, get yourself to dinner. And that's where that's like, where accidents happen because you're at elevation your fatigued and you start to stumble and just Can find yourself in a, in a bad in a bad spot. So lunchtime I think is a good check-in moment. Second is when you go to the bathroom, Which sounds silly but like, you can learn a lot about what your body is doing, based off of what your pee looks like. And it's a really, really good check-in moment to be like, oh my pee smells really bad or it's very dark. Like I'm
[01:03:28] Tayson: I I need here in the middle of an ultra marathon. It hurts to pee. Why does it
[01:03:33] Devin: in that case? Find an ambulance and get to the, ER, But I think I think people Overlook that they're like oh yeah I went to the bathroom and it's whatever I just had to pee but it's like know if you're if you're pee smells or is dark in color, then you're all ready behind where you should be. Your body like you should you should stop hydrate. Get some sodium in your body, gets those electrolytes go on. Like I think those are really smart good ways to to check in with yourself on the trail.
[Editor’s note: Urine color or odor alone does not establish a diagnosis, and hydration or electrolyte needs vary. The spoken comments are preserved as a 2023 personal view, not medical advice; painful urination or other concerning symptoms warrant qualified medical guidance.]
[01:04:16] Tayson: Yeah, I think those are great and I think that also anyone listening to this, Don't be ashamed of asking those questions, especially if you're out with new people. I know that for me, you know, I'm always taking newer, people out, or I'm taking, or I'm kind of feeling like I'm the trip lead in some ways at least liable, right? And so yeah, yeah. I have to ask that sometimes like, you guys all Pete and, like the last three hours, you know, like, you know, you know, just stuff like that. Just to make sure do some of those check-ins and anytime I'm taking someone new to Elevation, I'm like, like, you know, just a mother hen. I'm just like pestering the crap out of moment, some ways, but but it's, it's proven to be very helpful and you can avoid disaster or, you know, massive reroutes or all sorts of things about that. So I think that's a great. Yeah. Lunchtime check in And then a check in every time you're stopping or a lack thereof. Is also a very big indicator. So, yeah, okay. I want to ask you a few questions about just some gear and then, you know, I want to be respectful of your time too. I know you've got some I've been doing some awesome videos, you've been doing some stuff up in the Sawtooth, which I'd love to talk more about but we may not be able to get to all of that. So I want to ask you some different questions. You know, you cover a lot of ultralight gear, you cover, a lot of just lightweight backpacking gear. But I also know you're someone who takes your family out a lot. There's some little girls you're taking out and and a little boy, right? But how much she's come out? But I'd love to hear like, what are your car camping favorites? It's been something that's just kind of been on my mind recently, like I should, I should really get like a car camping setup. I mean, here at Outdoor Vitals. We make a ton of gear but it really most of it is ultralight backpacking performance, backpacking focused. And so I was just out backpacking with my kids and I'm like, you know what? I think I want a two-person sleeping pad because what happens is, I'm in the middle. And my kids are snuggled up like right here on me, and I'm just like, I'm in the crack and I hate this crack, you know what I mean? Like, you know, so they're just, they're just so small, like, they don't really stay on their own paths, right? Yeah, so yeah, just love to hear maybe some of your favorite car camping, things pieces of gear for this year.
[01:06:36] Devin: Okay, I'll give you what, like, Top five things come to mind off the bat. The first is the tent that we love to use as a family.
[01:06:50] Tayson: It's really been looking at that one. I think I know you're gonna say
[01:06:54] Devin: yeah, the NEMO Aurora Highrise 6-person I love it because it is not so big that you can't really find places to put it, but it's got room to stand up. It fits Me my wife, my three kids and my dog all in the tent.
[01:07:17] Tayson: Okay. And then it's got like, vertical walls. How does it do in weather or have you had it in weather and
[01:07:28] Devin: it's done really well in the rain. Because it has such a high profile, it's not the best for wind resistance but it does. It does well enough.
[01:07:41] Tayson: Could it like could you attach additional guidelines and get proper Stakes to have it perform? Okay, in the wind or would you recommend to just a different tent for that?
[01:07:51] Devin: Um, know it'll, it'll do well enough like each each of the four. The four sides, the corners have guidelines. Come on. And then like the nice thing is the vestibules stake out at two points, instead of like coming down to the straight V. To only have one Stakeout points. So there's enough enough stakes in the ground. That it holds itself really good.
[01:08:21] Tayson: Yeah, I think that maybe on my list to acquire, I've recently been using, like, a Seek Outside Redcliff. So like a piece style, get backpack with us still and then I have a nest for like one side, but my kids, you know, like the space. But yeah, that that Nemo high-rise is on the list. All right, with some, it's so good.
[01:08:40] Devin: Okay, number two is the Sleep System. So it's too too items. The EXPED MegaMat Duo for my wife to and I just sleep on with the Zenbivy. Double bed system.
[01:08:59] Tayson: Yeah, it's oh
[01:09:01] Devin: dude. It is so nice. It that's sleeping pad is super warm. So you don't have to worry about like, ever sleeping cold on it. It's very comfortable. The only downside is it's pretty bulky. Like it's a large.
[01:09:16] Tayson: It's gonna say is that one that could be backpacked or is it really a no Camp know?
[01:09:20] Devin: It's like It's as big as 40 liter pack when it's rolled up. Its got some some bees,
[01:09:31] Tayson: do you have a recommendation if I did want one that I could like Heavily backpack with that's a double like a heavier setup. That's a double. Like I haven't I was I was looking at xped I browsed around just a little bit and I wasn't super. Some of them were only 40 inches wide and I was like, yeah, I'm gonna double like I want to be 50 and there wasn't expected one. That looked okay, that I was looking at.
