[00:00:00] Tayson: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Live Ultralight Podcast powered by Outdoor Vitals. Today in this podcast episode, we have Brigham, our product designer on here, and we're going to be doing a deep dive. One of your guys's favorite styles of podcasts. And it's, it's an interesting product. It's something that, um, Brigham, as you noted, it may not take us a full hour to go over. And I would kind of believe that there's a lot of companies out there that just may not even have bothered to do a podcast for this product. But for us, it matters, right? So for us, everything matters when you're up on the mountain, when you're out in the wilderness, um, you know, the performance of every single piece of kit that you have matters. And so we're going to take the time to go through the specifics on this, what makes it truly great, truly unique. Uh, maybe we'll talk about use case scenarios a little bit so that you can get an idea of why it stands out to us and why it's a product that we're willing to stamp and release to the public. Um, because again, in our minds, every piece of gear matters, even if it is, um, just your leggings. So today we're going to be talking about the, um, Highline Thermal Leggings and just breaking those down. So Brigham, how you doing today?
[00:01:21] Brigham: Doing well, doing well. Hanging in there and joining the, uh, the fall crisp air that's upon us. It's good.
[00:01:27] Tayson: Yeah, it is getting nice. The mornings, the mornings are actually nice again. So like when I go out and run or hike in the morning, it actually feels nice, right? We're headed up the mountain. Uh, five of the team members and me are for the team members in the year headed up today to do some fast packing. And it's, it's so nice that there is up there over the weekend and getting close to changing leaves. And it's just that crisp, clean air. I feel like every time you go up the mountain, that's, that's at least what it feels like. So it's a great time to be out. It's also a time to start thinking about layers a little bit and, and some of those kinds of things in your kit. So it's a good time to be talking about thermal leggings. So, um, I guess let's just start off with the background of this product and what we were hoping to design when we set out with this project, obviously we already had a thermal legging before with the DragonWool. Uh, it's a full zip off piece, meaning you can leave shoes or boots on, you can completely zip it off of your body. Um, so it's very convenient to layer up and layer down, um, in that sense of it. But there was still something that was, I guess, lacking for us. And hence the reason that we decided to build a new piece. So what was it, Brigham, that when we set out to design this piece that changed for us, that, that we felt like we needed to solve or improve upon?
[00:02:55] Brigham: Um, well, I, if my memory is working, which it might not be a hundred percent, but I mean, just in terms of some of the, some of the origins, I mean, I like that the name Highline Leggings is like, it is a bit of a reminder as to some of the origins. Um, because I think we really started kind of, uh, adding more, just a little more emphasis or attention on lower half layers, uh, after the, the trip on the Highline where we got snowed out, um, you know, in like the first week of August and it was, it would be, it wouldn't be accurate to say we, we, we got snowed out because we didn't have leggings. Like that would be an exaggeration, but, um, it did, it was just a kind of, I would say like a pretty strong impetus to start looking a little bit harder and analyzing what can we add to our line, um, that can help us and everybody else out there just like in this scenario where although it was summer, um, we were at high elevation and a massive weather system came in where it was really cold and wet. Um, and that, that combination is just, you know, it can be very potentially dangerous, but it's, it's challenging at the least in terms of just staying warm and effective and efficient on the trail and being able to kind of do, you know, complete the trip that you want to complete. So, yeah, we started looking at like leg coverings, basically.
[00:04:44] Tayson: Well, yeah, like when I think back on that, I think I was the only one that had thermals. I was testing out some thermals and I think no one else had them and so that kind of begs the question of like, well, why, right? And I think to just pair it down. On when you're doing a trip like that we're reading 20 to 25 miles a day at 12,000 plus feet and you're just doing massive amounts of exertion and Miles. You know, you really start pairing down your kit as much as you can, because every pound matters and We have DragonWool bottoms but they're like nine ounces or something in that ballpark. And because of that, you know, people weren't packing them, the weight of the fabric. Maybe the zippers, etc, etc. So no one was packing them. I had like, I said, I had a lightweight fleece legging because I was wanting to test that out, but no one else had them. And everyone else was I was saying everyone. I can't speak for everyone, but I think there's a little bit of, you know, jealousy. When I was able to wear those in some of those scenarios and just take that edge off. And so, yeah, I think that that was probably one of those areas where we started to think about a little bit more because If our, if the gear that we had out there wasn't really working for this exact trip that was maybe a bit of a red flag because that exact trip is a lot of what we're designing gear for is that level of performance that level of exertion that level of being out there in the back country. And so we wanted to make sure that we we have a piece that works phenomenal for that. So so we come back off that trip per se and I know it's probably not exactly like that but and we started to put down thoughts and ideas of what we wanted to develop and and so what did that look like?
[00:06:25] Brigham: ah, well, I mean some of those thoughts and ideas are still like, In development process. There's, there's other things that were working on in cars that were after saying yeah, like for like legs, it's like it. That's why I said kind of just sparked this Attention towards. What can we do for our legs in this inclement weather that that fits? Our system right? Like that. That makes sense. in terms of weight and performance and other things we can get into, but yeah, I think with specifically, like the the leggings The Highline Leggings What they kind of. Would bring to the table. Is there incredibly light and they dry incredibly fast? So well, and for that, for that lightweight, there, they're very warm. so I think that, yeah, just going again back to that where even It's not that that's, I would necessarily have just been wearing these leggings the whole time and that would have prevented us from getting snowed out, it just it. It's the thought process of like what was happening was we were hiking in shorts, which is just, it's a, it's a great way to go and I don't like Second. Guess, or I don't I wouldn't I would not do that much differently. but it's it's the scenario where When you, we were able to get our shelter set up, we were, you know, our legs. our shorts were soaking wet and that's a massive amount of like surface area of your body. That's just exposed to the to the open air and it's losing heat really quick. So you lose heat for wherever you're exposed and you'll lose the most heat from those exposed areas. So legs are a lot of surface area and and even when we got in the shelter's That's where. you know, looking at something like these, these Highline leggings Would be there, really nice for that scenario where you just want to. Just warm up. and kind of dry off because frankly, we could like we were coming out of being just pelted by I would say, rain sleet, and hail all of those things.
[00:08:57] Tayson: Even the hail—I was reminded last week when I got caught in a hail storm, at 12,000 feet, how much hail hurts at 12,000.
[00:09:06] Brigham: Yeah,
[00:09:06] Tayson: I had a flashback to getting smashed by the hail and just being like, this is painful.
[00:09:12] Brigham: Yeah, so you know, once we once once you get in the tent your legs are damp at best. if not just kind of soaking wet and being able to have like an immediate boost in in body warmth, or in, you know, warmth is Pretty. Pretty crucial. And, and so, That's where these make a lot of sense or would have made. A lot of sense is that for how little they weigh meaning? We could pack them on this long, distance short, duration trip. It makes sense in terms of bulk and weight, but they would have, you know, they provided an immediate like significant boost in warmth. and also, with the dampness like, Say, you know, the legs are wet or damp. soon, as these are put on and they start trapping body heat that body heat actually starts drying out our legs, and so it's this, there's a couple things going on at the same time where yeah, they're warming us up but they're also drying us off at the same time, which it compounds and and and And and increases exponentially. So this is the more we warm up the fast the dryer, our legs become and that helps us warm up even more. And so that's where the warmth and the weight and the quick drying ability of the leggings is Really. Really significant.
[Editor’s note: The storm, drying, warmth, and weight comments above are personal and product-development recollections recorded in September 2023, not current specifications, controlled test results, or cold-weather safety guidance. Wet and cold conditions can become dangerous; use current qualified guidance and a complete weather-appropriate clothing and shelter system.]
[00:10:45] Tayson: Yeah, I mean, I think like the best piece here, like, it's almost like I'm thinking of this quote from from cameras. It's like what's the best camera you can have? And usually the answer is the camera that's always with you, right? And I think that's part of what make these so amazing. Is I just rolled these up. Those either watching on YouTube and they're like the size of, maybe two pairs of socks, like, smaller socks, or one like big puffy pair of socks. Yeah, is about the size of those. They're under four ounces and it's just something that's so easy to take with you and we can get into a bunch of that, but I do want to get into. So I want to get into some of the use cases how we use them in our systems, but before I guess I get too far down that And you just want to talk about like yeah, what they offer, right? Because obviously it's like, in this scenario, we're talking about, it's not like they're, they're water resistant or anything like that, right? Like there's still more layering system to come from us, but but what they do offer is they take the edge off of that cold, they're extremely warm for their weight and They're just, yeah, they're just super super versatile. I guess when and a lot of times something can be versatile just because it is lightweight or because of like is if you have it, then you're going to figure out different ways to use it, but I want to, I guess talk a little bit about what the fabric is, what some of the design features are and then we can really talk about how that applies into the field. I feel like so, When we started this off. Yeah, we were looking for a legging that we could wear underneath shorts, over the top of shorts underneath pants. Take that edge off and really be that next to skin layer that just like Brigham was talking about. They can pull moisture off of you, regulate. Moisture on the skin which is one of the best possible ways to regulate your temperature is to regulate moisture with the base layer. So, as a lot of it had to be like, okay, needs to be quick drying. He's able to pull moisture off of you and really be that like next to skin item that takes the edge off of any cold. So if you're wearing them with a short and there's a little bit of a breeze like you're gonna notice that these are on, are they like windproof? Now they're not they're not that kind of a piece but it just takes the edge off if they're underneath the pant. If your layering underneath the pant, they're gonna be very warm in that scenario, right? Because you've got something that's going to block the wind a little bit more and then these are I'm a little bit more lofted next to skin. So when we started to, you know, explore different fabrics and different items, we looked at heavier weight items than this. We looked at a lot of really impressive Fabrics, you know? Amazing Fabrics in the hand. As far as hand feel as far as like a very premium feeling piece and there's just a lot of options out there. And essentially is as we boil it down and down and down just to Performance I would say like what are you getting for the weight and How likely are you to take them and just started to go through, you know, even durability. You know the whole shape things like that. I feel like we just slowly realized more and more that this fabric was the fabric. Now this fabric is about 100 grams per square meter so it's it's an extremely light fabric that's like a oh, Two three ounce per yard ish. If you're if you're more familiar with that about three ounce per yard fabric so extremely light it's like for those of you that have like the Altitude Hoodie that I'm wearing right now like it's 20 grams heavier this is an 80 gram per square meter, this is 100 gram, right? So it's an extremely extremely light fabric, but what we got out of it was Just always impressive like you wear it and you're like this is I just it just impressed for it for what it is, right? I think.
[00:14:39] Brigham: When we, when we look for materials. Everything is a compromise but you're always trying to find the best balance of compromises. With performance, like, performance and compromise. You try to find the best balance for the intended. Use. And I think that was what We? Became really happy with this fabric because I feel it has the best balance. Of. Like, even the range of use for, for how much it weighs for how warm it is, for how it breathes. Because, we could have gone so that we may have found something that let's say was a little bit warmer, but it would be the increase in weight would be more so than the increase in warmth. So, as as we got something a little bit warmer, it would actually, maybe be you know, say 1.5 times heavier and so, we were kind of losing on the balance there and it just didn't make sense, but I feel like we've got a really good balance with this fabric because well, part of the balance is also not just performance but usability in terms of year round so it wouldn't make sense for us to just come out with Something that you could only use in the summer or something that you could only use in the winter also, you know, like yeah, a lot of the western us Winter's are long but it that that didn't strike the right balance for us either. If we had something that was just mostly appropriate for only, you know, sub-freezing winter use then. It's not, we're not happy with that. It just didn't seem that that sensible or usable. And so, I think we have a really good balance with this fabric that for Frigid winter time, use, you know, using it actively. It's got to be pretty darn cold to, to hike. With a pair of, you know, long johns, thermals leggings underneath a pair of pants without overheating. And so, There's some of that the bounce we had to find there was well, how warm do we want it to still be able to use it under a pair of pants in the winter time? But also Now, let's go to Summertime or spring or fall. Where it's definitely. Not cold enough to need to put on a pair of long johns, underneath a pair of pants but there's plenty of scenarios where I kind of just call it like the camp routine, whether that's morning or night. Where at night you get to Camp maybe the sun has just gone down And in Spring and fall, the temperature will drop pretty quickly. And so now, Maybe if you're hiking in shorts but you still have to filter, water boil water, eat your dinner set up camp. Just relax. Stretch visit, you know, hang out. I don't want to like have to necessarily change into like a pair of pants that weighs, you know, 12, 16 oz. But in that routine. Having something in this this weight and warmth category. It's just it makes a lot of sense, it's very usable, same thing in the mornings. Oftentimes we get up before the Sun is up. And it's, it's brisk. And if we're just wearing shorts we want to Maintain our body temperature so that we're efficient. And so just being able to put on something that's just warm enough while, we're not really highly active and generating a lot of heat. I feel like this is kind of got a really good balance where in milder temperatures even summer mornings and nights. when we're very low on activity and just kind of hanging out like this, these these work really well and just keeping our legs, just warm enough to be comfortable. But then, in the winter time, you know, we can actually, you know, a lot of people can can put them on underneath a pair of pants and and go do like whether that's a, you know, cross-country skiing or snowshoeing or even if you don't have snow just hiking. Or even, you know, some of the guys that do downhill skiing and stuff like that, like it. It provides. A good, I'd say an appropriate amount of warmth anyway. Have feel like it's pretty pretty balanced.
[00:19:31] Tayson: Yeah, I mean and I think with that we need to talk a little bit about what the fabric is, right? Because when you say legging, you can think of Like I don't know what I'm trying to say. Just a woven single piece of fabric per se. That's More like a. I don't like a tight if that makes sense. Yeah,
[00:19:52] Brigham: I think that's I don't. the terminology that was like frequently used back, I'd say like 10 Years ago is people would talk about like Silk weight, silk weight, base layers, and they're pretty similar to like, kind of the weight and the fabric type that the Altitude is where it's just, you know, it's not lofted, by any means. It's just kind of thin. You can almost call it like t-shirt level thin but it's it's just there, it's fitting. It's it's and and actually that's on that Highline trip. That's what I like, that's what I've used for years like to sleep in and and it's, it's fine. But we'll get into some interesting points that I have comparing, you know, kind of the silk weight leggings to this versus anything that's more lofted. If that's the other category, right? So this this piece right here. Again, if you're on video, you're gonna see or if you go to our website to see this, the outside of this piece is not lofted. It's a smooth face smooth face so it's a little bit more, a little bit more durable and what not in that sense. But on the inside, when you turn this inside out, it is lofted or brushed.
[00:21:08] Tayson: Fleeced. So it is, um, it's just yeah, I mean, essentially the goal of a lofted piece or an insulative pieces to trap air trap that warmth in there and that's essentially what this does. Now what makes this pretty interesting is this is a fabric coming out of our partners out of Japan and they're very very skilled at the way that they brush this to fleece it so that it's not compromising durability on the outside. Now keep in mind this is an Ultra Lite piece and we're not saying this is like some tough pant, right? This is this is an ultra light thermal leggings not a brush busting piece. Yeah, but for what it is, it's still very durable on the exterior and very lofted and very warm on the interior of this. So this is about as light as I think you could possibly get to have a brushed fleece. Inner inner piece like this, It's a pretty proprietary way that they do this to, to achieve this exact thing. So, so, yeah, this is this think of this more, as a fleece per se, a fleece inner with a, with a harder exterior on that. But so, we've got that Silk weight that we just talked about which is like like, it's t-shirt or like the Altitude fabric, you've got more of this fleece bottom and then I guess you could have something like a full insulative bottom, but we're not really going to talk about that. I'll be like a pair down pants or something like that, right? So we found that this particular Fabric or my opinion on this is that it's it's a very, very balanced in a very unique spot. Silk weight. Yes, it'll manage moisture on the skin. Right, it'll pull moisture off evaporated and and just take that edge off but then you get like these fleece bottoms and they're almost that can be too warm, right? Because if you start to do any activity, you can start to heat up too much or You know, it's just it's just tough but but so this really landed in this really unique spot where it punches above its weight category for warmth. But because it's still so thin and light, you know, you can do some light movement in this. If you're in shorts, you can do a decent amount of movement in this and pants a little bit less. But so just hits in this really unique spot where it's it's not just some silk weight t-shirt type thickness on your legs, but it's not a big piece that's going to overheat you. And so, what that does just like Brigham alluded to is gives you a very wide range of usability in this piece. Summertime I take these, I've taken these on every summer trip, we've had for over 12 months and I've also taken them On every winter trip. I've had in the last 12 months because there's just such a usability versatility. You know, like wide range of use out of these because of the weight category that they land in and just the warmth category that they landed and we built some other things into these which we can talk about in a second that help with that as well. But yeah I mean is that does that kind of wrap up I guess the fabric itself and
[00:24:12] Brigham: yeah I'd say it sums up like to a t. I mean that just the wide range usability. I feel like it's just it's a really good balance like I've just like you, I've taken that on every trip or since we started getting the prototypes made and so that includes every season of the year. So, one over a year and turns of Hi and so and that's you know, to really prove out the usability, like that's why we do that. We internally do that testing and validation so that we can say like okay this was usable, you know, in a July trip because We can get into use cases but, but yeah, for sure. Year round usability. I feel like we just found a really good balance. When we talk about like Silk weight. I think one of the interesting things is A. You could take a a silk weight, basically. Something that's just it's just a knit fabric. It's just a Kind of both inside and outside surfaces are going to appear the same. It's just a consistently knit through thin lightweight fabric, it's going to weigh. Let's just say, You know, you mentioned the Altitude, that's an 80 gram per square meter fabric. There's not really much out there in this type of knit fabric that's going to be lighter than that. But let's just say let's just call 100 gram per square meter fabric. And there's plenty of silk weight base layer, type Fabrics that are in that class. The interesting thing about this Fabric and the Highline legging is it's the same weight, but it's like, Two to three times warmer. Yeah, so times warmer so kind of the the that's where the interesting thing is, is Like we can do. you know, we could Take a really lightweight Fabric and just make a pair of leggings out of it, but if we compare them, you know, wait for weight, like one is just going to be way warmer than the other and so it's not like they're warmer because there's a weight penalty. I think that's that. The greatest part about them is they're, they're warmer because of the fabric construction type and how they're they're brushed and fleeced, but there's no, there's no weight penalty for that. So like you usually can't get You know, a warmer legging for the weight. you know, I mean if they were to just go to there may be something out there but it's not going to have just this. like, for example, I have these I was issued actually in the military, some really good layering system pieces. And that's what I've used over the years is some of these highly developed. And and the layering systems I'm talking about were developed by a big massive player in the outdoor industry in the clothing industry. And so they're the the methodology, the science behind it is all like really It's really valid. but, So I've weighed them out. You know, I've got these they're all. Even the, the brand that makes the fabric of these leggings I have is is Polartec. It's just a very silk weight. So quite base layer. They weigh. Almost identical. It might be like a quarter of an ounce heavier than the Highline leggings, but they're just completely flat base layer fabric, just like the Altitude. So wait for weight, they're half the warmth. And so there's just there's just no gain, you know, and so I think that's what's one of the interesting things about the Highline Leggings is, there's this, this significant gain and warmth for 0, gaining weight,
[00:28:13] Tayson: Yeah, I I would agree 100% with that. It's these These are in the class as far as weight goes with those those pieces, you just described but they're punching. I would say like two to three times at least in a warmer you know above that weight class as far as warmth goes. Just it is, it's really phenomenal. And it's and it's something we've proved over and over again just in the field, right? Just Through experience. But I'm glad you called that out because Most pieces that are fleece like this are going to start at about 150 grams per square meter, right? And we said this one is at 100 grams per square meter. So it really just, you know, for 50% less weight. We're still getting a fleece, impressively, warm piece.
[00:29:00] Brigham: And the reason for that is it's really hard to take a such a thin lightweight and low-density knit fabric and brush it without compromising it. That's that's why that's why there's not very many faces even close to the weight category, just because it is just hard to do. And so, it's not very cost effective for a brand to do it.
[00:29:26] Tayson: So I think that's that like to the point of what these are going to cost versus you know, if you went down to Walmart and bought a silk weight base layer, right? Like there's gonna be massive difference in price, you know, once going to be 20 bucks one's going to be you know, closer to 80, right? So there is a lot of Technology technical skill development, that goes into, just the fabric portion of this, let alone, the different piece, we put into this. So, all right, so let's talk a little bit about the cut, the length, the waistband, and then the gussets. So, Um yeah, just walk us through kind of the how these should fit, how long they are and and go from there.
[Editor’s note: The fabric density, warmth multiples, weight comparisons, durability discussion, technology claims, and roughly $20-versus-$80 pricing above describe a September 2023 launch conversation. They were not independently verified here and do not establish current specifications, performance, construction, or price.]
[00:30:04] Brigham: Yeah. They should. They should fit pretty close to the skin without being tight like running tights or running leggings. Or I don't, what do they call the? Leggings that a lot of women wear just out to the out every leggings that they just like, they're not, they're not that
[00:30:28] Tayson: Lululemon leggings.
[00:30:29] Brigham: Yeah, they're not that form fitting and we don't really want them to be but they are supposed to fit.
[00:30:34] Tayson: Oh, no, there's dude, there's there's a whole other category. Now it's getting developed in that. I don't know if you've seen those that are like these These like we should probably get into this. Like, they're like, they're like literal name is like Oh crap booty something. You know what I mean? And they're just like all like super tight and Technical the just yeah.
[00:30:52] Brigham: These are not designed to like enter crevices.
[00:30:56] Tayson: And that's a certain. Oh, Anatomy. Or I don't know. Not supposed to do. Not want to make your butt look big in these. This is what I'm hearing from you. Brigham.
[00:31:08] Brigham: That was not the design.
[00:31:09] Tayson: And okay, so moving on, from TikTok trends here, um, These are not a TikTok trend legging yet. Maybe someone will figure out how to make them trending on there, but I mean there's
[00:31:24] Brigham: yeah they're they're meant to be a little bit looser so that they're not. You know, so that they can stay lofted, right essentially. Yeah. So we don't want them so tight that that we lose that, that Loft that traps the dead air and keeps your legs warm. But they are supposed to be Closed fairly form fitting so that they're, they're efficient in terms of layering. So we they're designed for to fit close to the Contours of the leg, which enables, you know, the user to be able to pull up a pair of pants over top of them and have the pants. Have the freedom of movement that they need to function properly. And then all. So, On the close-fitting side, we want them to be close fitting so that we could put them under a pair of a pair of shorts. Let's just say other system comes in on a backpacking trip and you're wearing shorts and it's actually quite cool for several hours of the morning. And then we want it to make a lot of sense to wear these underneath. A pair of like hiking shorts like running shorts, Skyline Trail shorts. and be able to, just Just hit the trail and go comfortably. That being said, we have, you know, vetted this out ourselves where we, you can pull these on up over a pair of running shorts. Like, we have the Skyline Trail Shorts, that are there. They're basically a running short design for the trail kind of and like, I've pulled these up over the shorts, And that style of short works really well, because they're so low bulk. They're not like this bulky heavy thing so it's not gonna look great. It's not you know, you're gonna have the shorts kind of puffing out a little bit underneath the leggings but it can be done and and it's worth noting.
[00:33:17] Tayson: So I'll just quickly share a story from a week or so ago, I was out doing some sports and activities with my brother. We are clear out in the wilderness and I what I like to do now and this is kind of for both sides of whether it's just backpacking or what not, but typically bringing well, I guess this is totally true, but for this scenario, I had one pair of underwear and then I had Skyline Trail shorts And I use the Skyline Trail Shorts, almost like their boxers. And so, when I'm, when I'm doing my actual hiking to get into places, I'll just wear those shorts because they're, they're lighter. They're they're very quick to move in and if I sweat and get them smelly, like I'm not worried about that because I have this other pair of shorts that I can wear for other things. So I what I ended up doing one of the mornings or more is I was I don't know if I slept in them or not, but I was just using the Skyline Trail Shorts. Like they're basically boxers and I had the line version. And I was like let's be cold but I know I'm gonna be peeling these back off pretty soon so I got a hike ahead of me. So I pulled the The Highline Leggings over the top of those. And then I put a pair of pants on two. And from, I don't know about visually, right? Like I'm not checking myself out in the mirror you know, 10 miles into the back country but like it from a performance standpoint. Like I did not even notice that I had the Skyline Trail Shorts on underneath it because they're so light still thin like they're they're basically the weight of a lot of people's boxers, right on a scale. And so then is the, is the day went on morning, got up and I decided to go do this this hiking section. I just could peel off my pants and my thermals and I was sitting there in my Skyline shorts so you really can like they do fit over the top of something as light and thin, as the skyline short or, or the design intent was that mainly they'd be worn underneath pants or underneath the shorts? But Yeah, just wanted to throw that that out. There's kind of a use case there. I really liked it because then I didn't have to You know, take the shorts off and then take the thermals off and then put the shorts back on, right? In that case, where I knew. So I guess what that would mean is like in the mornings when you're getting ready to go, I would just pull these on over the top of something like a Skyline short. Because, usually, you're only gonna be in it while you're putting away camp. And then you're either gonna take them off or you're gonna hike for 20 minutes and then take them off or something like that. So in that scenario it works well to just go right over the top. But for the most most scenarios we are advising. I guess that they're designed to fit underneath the the pants or the shorts.
[00:35:54] Brigham: Yeah. I just think it's it's kind of helpful for people to know like what they can do, you know? I mean like sure they're designed to to most of the time just go under everything. But don't like don't hesitate to try you know I mean because everybody's body shape and you know dimensions are going to be a little bit different so you know they're gonna fit me a little bit different than somebody else. But for the most part, I think, the way we've described them is what to expect.
[00:36:24] Tayson: Full length.
[00:36:24] Brigham: Yeah. Full length. Yeah, they should hit most people just above that, ankle bone. You know, the ones that kind of stick out above your foot. And so if you're wearing like a mid-cut sock it's gonna go right to that
[00:36:38] Tayson: and if you've got like a low-cut sock, it wouldn't reach down that low. Waistband on this. Do we use this waistband on anything else right now?
[00:36:45] Brigham: Nope, nope. So this is a new waistband I don't know how to describe this other than it's just a very thin comfortable. Stretchy nice waistband. Yeah,
[00:36:55] Tayson: it's not ribbed or anything. It's just a smooth inside and out. Not bulky.
[00:37:00] Brigham: Yeah,
[00:37:01] Tayson: so it's it works. That's one thing with layering. Right? Is if you start to get any piece that's bulky and you're adding more and more layers that starts to add up. And then let's talk about the gussets so that we did Gus at these with a crotch gusset. But we didn't just do that. We added in a new piece of fabric right here. We swap out the the main fabric of this for a different piece of fabric so talk talk through what we did there and and the why
[00:37:27] Brigham: so that's just an even lighter weight, thinner more breathable. I call it a mesh, it's kind of a mesh fabric. It's I I call it matters because technically it's classified as a mesh but it's not a mesh that is like something. You're gonna see on the back of a backpack pocket or something like that. It's not see-through. It's like an eyelet. Knit mesh. And so it's the point being is it's for a little bit more breathability and heat dissipation in the crotch gusset area. because that's, that's the hottest area of our lower half and it's actually better to To facilitate extra breathability there rather than retain it. There's very few scenarios where it's beneficial to retain the heat that that exists in that area, especially on multi-day longer duration trips because Bacterial odor, all those things they they can start to cause problems. So yeah, we just want to have a little bit higher breathability in that in that area and I it's noticeable it is noticeable into
[00:38:44] Tayson: I mean in both ways that you would be using these, right? So obviously when you're walking and Hiking, it's going to create some venting in there which is, which is beneficial. Like Brigham said. So that's the hottest part of your body and it only takes one hot spot to make a piece on comfortable. So by venting that area, it allows it extends the range of use of the product. Pretty significantly. And then, the other one is, for those of you, I mean, everyone listen to this probably will fully understand this one, but if you get into a top quilt, or a mummy sleeping bag, Your legs are together, right? I mean, they are pinned together for the most part, very little spacing there. And so, what gets hot right there in the crotch area gets very, very hot. And so, since these are a piece that we sleep in a lot, and again, we're going to use cases in a minute. But sleeping in these, it is noticeable that it keeps that area from getting overly hot because every little bit helps in that scenario, right? You're legs are just pinned in and it's hard to get any breathability in there and you can overheat there for sure. So it's very noticeable, both for sleeping in and for activity. And again the whole idea is, you know, extending the range of using, extending the comfort of this piece. And I think that that adding that gusset in was a was a very smart and useful thing to Do so not just adding the guess it but the fabric specifically. So all right I think I think it's time to get into some some use case scenarios.
[Editor’s note: The fit, layering, waistband, gusset, breathability, odor, and comfort statements above describe the speakers’ 2023 design intent and experience. Current construction and individual fit, temperature, moisture, and skin-comfort results may differ.]
[00:40:07] Tayson: How do we use these? When do we use these? Just anything like that. So, Yeah. Why don't you go? I guess and we can kind of start with summertime I guess.
[00:40:17] Brigham: Yeah. I definitely like, I'm a believer that base layer bottoms or leggings. Should be. Should serve two purposes. One is as a base layer to provide warmth and cold temperatures. But also to be something to be to sleep in. I like I I don't think they should be separate. Like, I don't think they should be two separate pieces like think that like a thermal legging or legging should be used to sleep in. There's a lot of, I wouldn't say a lot, but there is a school of thought that it's not necessary to pack, you know, close to sleep in that we can, you know, even if we got a bunch of sweaty clothes from a day's hike that we can, you know, just get in our sleeping bags and sleep them dry and that does work. But I I am a believer that that drying process of sleeping, our clothes dry. requires more energy from us and that may be, I don't have the scientific data to to You know, corroborate this but from my experience, I don't know that that it doesn't actually maybe detract from our ability to sleep warm because our body is using as much energy as it can to dry out our clothes, right? So I'm a Believer in Sleeping in dry clothes and they're in the form of base layers. So I always take a pair of base layer bottoms and a, like, an Altitude. Slash base layer top to change into at the end of the day because I'm almost always sweaty the clothes. I'm wearing a specially, my shorts are sweaty. And I want to sleep well. So I want to sleep well. I don't go to sleep to dry out my clothes, I go to sleep to recover and to sleep well. So that's that's why my belief is that. Basically, your bottoms should be sleeping bottoms as well because Um, I've just proven it out for myself so many times where I've gotten to camp. And my legs are soaked from rain, or sleet or snow, or hail and wind. Or sweat. And I am starting to shiver and it's summertime but I want to immediately immediately feel warm. I don't want to feel warm in an hour. I want to feel warm in 30 seconds and so, so when you ask about summertime, that's that's that's that's my use. Case is these are half of my sleeping system, my sleeping clothes. So 100% of the time I get in the tent, I just take my shorts off and I pull these on and, You know, it's it's instant, it's an instant relief. Like it's an instant boost in in heat and warmth and now I can just settle in, I fall asleep faster on, my sleep is better and so, I that's, that's my summer application
[00:43:31] Tayson: now, to expand on that and because I want to, in a few ways. But, but first and foremost, Um you substitute these for boxers, I believe right at night.
[00:43:45] Brigham: Yep. Yeah. So I used the lined Skyline shorts, I just take them off and those take their place. And so I'm not like I'm not putting these on over underwear or anything, like they are, they are, they're long underwear, right?
[00:44:01] Tayson: Yeah, long.
[00:44:01] Brigham: And that's again, that's why, you know, having that increased breathability and the crotch kind of was just a must-have because it's I, I want to air things out. I want to provide the ability to try to dry out, and just overall day after day night, after night, just higher quality, sleep higher quality of experience.
[00:44:26] Tayson: So you're adding, you know, three point, seven ounces or something like that of weight. But you're eliminating an extra pair of underwear because I believe if you're like me and I think you were you would bring an extra pair of underwear before you started to go straight into these, right?
[00:44:42] Brigham: Yeah. Like, when we were developing our shorts, we were testing, you know, all kinds of things, different versions, different underwear, combinations, with unlined shorts. And that's why I just, that's where I became a huge. Huge believer for me in just a line shorts and no underwear because I can at night put these on in place of my shorts.
[00:45:05] Tayson: Yeah. It's a really. I mean, it's an extremely performance and ultralight way of getting way more performance, without getting hardly any extra weight, especially when you, when you look at it that way, right? So then it's almost a no-brainer to be taking these on every trip. It's it can be a safety thing. Can be a comfort thing. It can be whatever but you're you're not really adding much more because, you know, let's face it. Most boxers are going to be, you know even an ultra light pair of boxers might still be too Oz, right? So yeah. You're you're adding like an ounce and a half of weight of over an ultra light pair of boxers to bring a full long pair of underwear to sleep in and to have that comfort. So I'm the same way in the summer. I do the same thing as Brigham I I just sleep in these know boxers know anything. And yeah, I just allows me to eliminate another piece out of the kit and to bring those Point too about like drying out gear. That's a really interesting one, and I think we're probably gonna have people with conflicting thoughts on this. I would say I'm kind of in the middle, but but let me explain. So I like to put on dry clothes anytime. I try to not do that, I mean, I just had an experience. So a week and a half ago where I'm like, you know what, I'm just gonna sleep and drive these these shorts out and after 30 minutes, I was still not warm. You know, my butt essentially is still freezing. So I took off the wet clothes put on the dry clothes, you know, instant warmth instantly getting more comfortable. So what I do is I'll typically pick one to two items maximum that I may attempt to dry out in my bag. And usually, that's going straight down into my footbox. I'm not trying to wear that against my skin, because it just takes away so much of the comfort of sleeping that it's just not worth it to me. So, you know, maybe a pair of socks shove that down in the bottom or maybe a pair of socks and a top or a pair of socks and a pair of shorts. But but they're going down to the bottom and did they dry fully? Sometimes they do, they every time not always, sometimes they get kind of watered up and they just don't get enough exposure to fully dry out, but they I mean either way, they're they're drawing to an extent and I sleep better, it's more comfortable and And, you know, so on so forth. But it is, it is remarkable. Absolutely remarkable. How much instant warmth comes from changing a wet layer to a dry layer. And so, yeah, I fall into that same that same train of thought of, you know, it's just, it's just not worth trying to wear the wet clothes to bed. If you're already cold, especially too. Plus. I mean, again, I always try to relate this back to something. That's a little more understandable, but imagine having wet clothes on and then climbing in your bed at home, like, would you ever do that right? Like, it's, you're never gonna do that and think I'm gonna be totally comfortable doing this. I'm gonna sleep like a baby all night. You're like, no, this is going to be sticky and not comfortable and, you know, whatever. Like you're not gonna be thinking about maybe being cold, but you're going to think about how uncomfortable that is. And so when you're late that to the backcountry it's it's like why would you do that? You know you just you are going to be sacrificing since Lee comfort. So all right, so we use these in the summer for sleeping. You also talked about earlier on the podcast about using them like just Sitting around Camp, I use them like that all the time. Get into Camp, maybe you throw up your tent.
[Editor’s note: The sleep, recovery, warmth, energy-use, and in-bag drying comments above are personal practices and hypotheses from 2023, not medical or universal sleep-system guidance. Protect dry insulation, account for moisture and overnight conditions, and follow current qualified cold-weather guidance.]
[00:48:30] Tayson: Let your clothes, kind of dry while you're pitching your tent and climbing the tent and either add a layer on or change up your layering and get these on. So that when you climb back out and you're, you know, cooking dinner talking with the people at Camp, just adds a another dimension of comfort especially when you've been hiking in shorts in the summer and so on so forth. So use them a lot around camp and then Yeah, like I alluded to as well like in the mornings, it can be really nice to be able to keep these on while you're putting away camp. You haven't developed a lot of body temperature yet in the morning, you're not moving and producing a lot of body heat. So, you know, putting away your kit and packing up your bag and all that can be nice to keep these on and then, you know, pull them off right at the last minute or, or even start down the trail a little bit and then pull them off. But Yeah, I mean that's that to me, covers a ton of use like summer spring fall for the most part. And so, let's talk about more getting into colder seasons and, and how you use them, we may, we may slightly differ here, but we'll see. I mean, in the fall, a lot of times I'm switching back to a pant let's say in the fall. So I'm still not wanting to hike in these a ton in Spring and fall because it just with the pair of pants, I'm going to be generating more heat and holding in more heat, so that's not usually like I'm pretty much never hiking in these until it gets too full on winter. And and even then it can be data dependent, right? Sometimes you get a real sunny day in the winter, you're on skis, you're on snowshoes and it's not needed other times the winds blowing, right? Or something like that and it's just constantly cutting through. And in those scenarios I have definitely worn these for ski trips and and things like that and sometimes I'm still venting like I'm pulling down the zipper on the Sawtooth pants to still vent but I'll still use these just to take that edge off at times but I mean I mean for the most part I'm unless it's middle of winter. I'm not doing extended amounts of activity in these because they are they are still very warm.
[00:50:42] Brigham: Yeah, I think. Let's just call hiking activity. Under that we'll just include cross country. Skiing snowshoeing. Yeah, I think. I, I would say. For me. Like, I'm not gonna, I wouldn't really do any hiking with those under a pair of pants until it's approaching like zero fahrenheit. Yeah, at least single digits. And again, the the wind factor is the wind is going to factor into that decision as well, if it's, if it's 8 degrees, not including the wind and its 15-hour wins, that's frigate. So I, I would like be hiking with these underneath the pair of pants. If it's 20 degrees and I'm on snowshoes or Cross Country Skis, that's not cold enough for me to need to wear them underneath a pair of pants. They're this category of user is much Slimmer than I would even say like winter, backpacking, but in the, like, in the mountaineering, so, like the alpinism where people are like, kind of over 5,000 meters that I don't know, 15,000 14, 15,000 feet, and they're doing winter time, maybe. 1 to 2 night, climbs. yeah, temperatures are going to warrant the, the application to where these underneath their soft shell pants as they're going up a mountain because Those. that use case, there's a lot of stop-and-go and so You know, when they are going there, they're really putting forth effort and using those leg muscles but but then they're they're stopping, you know, everyone smile. And so yeah, definitely. The colder, it is. The more appropriate. They'll be to use underneath a pair of pants. but then, It's almost like as soon as you get to Camp, if they become like instantly usable because it is it is so cold. And then I would also add for sure 100% of the time. Like I'm sleeping in these on any winter trip for sure. And that is one area where you know, there's I, I don't. You know, I mentioned I have this you know, belief that you know basically should be all so sleeping clothes and and I mentioned the thing about drying clothes out versus just sleeping. Now in the winter time, I will actually sometimes sleep with my pants on over my base layers and that's like a really good warm setup because if I buy the time, I've put these on over underneath my pants and set up camp, like the sweat has dried off. All right. It doesn't, there's not much sweat to begin with but it's dried off and so it's actually just a really handy way to use the layers that I already packed in by wearing them you know, meaning my pants and those looser pants over the closer fitting leggings create dead airspace themselves and That's actually a pretty warm setup that I've found works pretty well for me in the winter time. Sometimes in the winter time, especially like if you have to get up and and go relieve yourself or, you know, in my experience when I have had to get up like that's the last there's just this feeling of dread of like I do not want to Get dressed just to go pee in the snow, you know. And so like, that's where it's actually kind of Handy to just be sleeping in the leggings and a pair of pants. Then you just zip up a puffy and just step out real quick and so yeah.
[Editor’s note: The temperature, wind, altitude, mountaineering, activity, and sleeping-in-pants examples above are personal use reports, not universal layering thresholds or safety guidance. Exertion, weather, moisture, exposure, and individual needs can change the safe choice.]
[00:54:41] Tayson: Yeah, I think. Just going back to sleeping really quick, too. A lot of people probably don't sleep in a full length, bottom right now, they probably sleep in shorts, sleep in boxers. So I just want to talk for a second about why I think sleeping in something like this is, is more comfortable. Number one, a lot of you guys are probably sleeping in top quilts by this point and What a top quilt is known for for potential drafts. Getting some drafts in there and whatnot. And Having a full length. Anything I think is going to just be helpful with that. If you do get a little bit of a draft, it's not going to to hit you or sting you as much per se with the full length piece like this. But the other thing is, there's this mentality or thought process that if you don't have any clothes on the bottom of your body, but your sleeping in a say lightweight hoodie or something like that. On your upper half, you get this differentiation of temperatures between your upper half and your lower half and then even that can create discomfort that will affect your sleep. So having a, you know, a pair of socks on then a full length thermal and then something like a Tern Hoodie. Is our lightweight wool hoodie, having something, even like that can can help not have like any bare skin exposed which then can bleed into your total sleep Comfort. Personally, I believe that. And for me, I'm I'm all about it. Whenever I sleep in shorts. I'm less comfortable than when I sleep in a pair of leggings like this, right? So yeah, I think I think I just kind of skipped over that I think earlier but the sleeping in a full length, legging I think has more benefits than than maybe we touched on there, but Yeah, I mean is there any other use case scenarios that we've we've missed?
[Editor’s note: The draft and temperature-balance comments above are Tayson’s personal comfort observations, not proof that a base layer improves sleep or makes a sleep system safe. Use a properly rated, weather-appropriate complete sleep system.]
[00:56:32] Brigham: I mentioned this to Joe the other day. Because of the Stop and Go nature. I think they're they're actually good option for like, downhill skiing and snowboarding like at Resorts where the legs burn on the way down when you're, you're going down and run. But then you're sitting on a lift or you're sitting in line for who knows 10 to 30 minutes and then you're on the lift for another 10 minutes and so there's this huge flocks and so I think these are great application for that or a similar activity where there is that massive swing in intense activity and then being stagnant for you know, 20 minutes or so. Because they're they're breathable and so even when your legs are burning on away like going down to run at a resort. Still going to breathe, they're going to keep your legs warm and there they dry, incredibly quick. So if if you do happen to sweat in them, They're going to stay warm when you stop writing and you're sitting on the left on the lift like they're still going to provide the warmth, and they're actually going to be drying while you're sitting there. And so, that's just another kind of like, A little bit outside, the the Box use case. But definitely, I think they're great application for that.
[00:57:52] Tayson: Yeah, they are 100% polyester piece. So there's no spandex in them. It's going to add weight or trap moisture. Not even nylon in them. So because of that, they're they do dry extremely fast especially with them being lofted and lightweight. They can they can dry extremely extremely fast. It's the kind of piece that you pull out of spin cycle on a washing machine and you're like these still dry.
[00:58:16] Brigham: And I was just to say, like, I 100% endorse this to anybody that buys these if you want, like, put them in the washing machine. And then take them out and wear them. As soon as you put them on, they'll feel warm, you know? I mean like or just take them and Run them under the sink for 10 minutes and or dunk them in a bucket of water and put them on. It's it's pretty incredible, how, how warm they are and how, how difficult it is for them to even get to where they even feel soaked. So
[Editor’s note: The composition, breathability, warmth-while-damp, and drying claims above are historical product statements and were not independently tested here. The sink, bucket, or washing-machine suggestion is not cold-weather wet-garment safety guidance; do not substitute an informal demonstration for dry insulation and current qualified planning.]
[00:58:49] Tayson: yeah. So The Highline Leggings, definitely an awesome piece sub, four ounces. And can be around that 80 dollar price point. Obviously, if you're a member of a Live Ultralight member, you're going to get them for. 10% off. And then when we launch these, which when this podcast goes out, that means that they'll be launched and you'll get some additional discounts on launch week. So go pick up. The pair of these, I do not think you will be disappointed. There a piece that will live. you know, and your top drawer type of thing if you're someone who's getting outside a lot, they're very usable piece in so many different ways that I think that you will end up using them I actually you know, historically thermals for me, I've kind of put them in a different area of my house not like on my daily shelves or my daily drawers, right? And these have lived on my daily shelves and drawers because I do just use them that much. So phenomenal, piece wide range of use gonna provide a lot of comfort, a lot of high-end performance in the field. I think you guys are just gonna absolutely love these. It's been a very fun piece to develop and bring to Market and to Yeah, just spend just spend time testing. These and they upleveled some comfort for for me in the field and I'm excited to get them out. So Any last words or anything we missed on the leggings?
[01:00:11] Brigham: I mean, if we told Joe, there's no way, we're going an hour. And I'm pretty sure we went over an hour. So we're at an hour. So, We we could still talk to people here off about some of the simplest products. Hey, I think I think kind of what you mentioned at the beginning. Is we the reason we can talk about is because we believe in it because it matters something as simple as like these. These leggings like there's there's really not much to them but there's still a lot of talk about and the fact that we have anything to say about them. We should always that, that should always exist. Like, I never say, never but I don't think we'll ever be, but in a product out there that we don't have, Something to say about and because if we don't, then what's the point, shouldn't be developing it for sure.
[01:01:02] Tayson: Okay, well go snag. Your guys's Highline leggings, they just launched. Grab them while we've got Supply and in your size pretty excited about this piece. So go pick him up on outdoorvitals.mom. If you've not yet subscribed to the podcast, please do so and make sure you've rated the podcast as well. That really helps us if you found by more people and help more people get out into nature, you know, Connect from this crazy world. We live in and reconnect with themselves with relationships. The higher being, whatever it is that, that were needed where it's definitely needed. Practice to disconnect from this crazy world. We live in so radius, subscribe to us again. That just helps us help more people out there. So thanks for joining us. Thanks for joining me on the podcast Brigham. It's always a pleasure to go through a design process and kind of get to the finish line of Projects that you constantly working on. So, it's always fun with that. We'll see you guys out on the trail or on the next podcast.
[Editor’s note: The product weight, approximate price, membership discount, launch-week discount, availability, stock urgency, website, subscription, and rating calls above were recorded for the September 2023 launch. They are preserved as historical speech and do not describe current products, offers, inventory, membership terms, URLs, or calls to action.]
