EP 166 - How To Get 2nd Place On The Moab 240: Jeff Pelletier Interview

[00:00:00] Tayson: Everybody welcome back to the Live Ultralight Podcast powered by Outdoor Vitals. Today we have a very exciting story to tell one which I did get to be a small part of with Jeff Pelletier. Jeff recently took second place at the Moab 240 mile ultra race, this race is one that's widely known. There's been some absolute Giants in the sport that have raced this before. There's also been, you know, just giant influencers, you know, David Goggins type people that have run this race as well. So it's got a lot of Fame over the time, but it's a really unique race because you're running in the desert, you're running at 11,000 feet back to the desert and basically through this cycle again for 200 and 240 miles and I think he got a front row, seat ticket to witness the last year's race and all of the excitement that happened there and that's what this podcast is about. It's about Jeff. Setting a massive goal to go and race in the race and then you know, basically how that I'm folded for him with his training and how the execution went, and there's so much value in this podcast to learn from and whether you're interested in in running or not, you're going to learn things that are going to help you for endurance. Such as hiking such as ultralight, backpacking, through hiking or running Ultras. So join me in this exciting tale of Jeff's Moab race in 2023. I think you're gonna absolutely love it. We did go a little long because we got so lost in the stories of the trail, but I don't know that you're going to get these stories anywhere else. There have been some other podcast done by Jeff and I've listened to some of them and I'm just gonna tell you right now, they don't know the details that we get into in this because they don't just, they weren't first row seat for this, and I was very appreciative of Jeff bringing me along Jeff. Initially was the one who got me into running trail running period. And now he's he's maybe getting me into the next level of Ultras so stay tuned. Listen to that. I think you'll really enjoy this episode. You'll learn a ton and there's some great stories to be told here. So, we'll go ahead and roll this interview. This was one of those experiences that for my end was very, became a little bit last minute. And I, I almost didn't accept to come Pace, but I'm so glad that I did, it was, it was, it was one of the highlights, I would say, for my year and it was it came almost unexpected. Thought that the opportunity to come past you was was kind of behind and I had, I had been totally off training for not training for a handful of months, but literally the week, leading up to Moab 240. I can't remember if I texted you or you texted me and you're like yeah, come out here and let's do this with y'all. Have you Pace me and I was excited. I was also a little worried because I hadn't been doing the training and I know you've been training like a madman. So But yeah, I mean, let's I think, I think people will be able to find a ton of info on, like, you know how you prepped, you know, you can go to Jeff's YouTube channel and you can learn about how he prepped, his, you know, getting out there and acclimating and getting familiar with some of the trails. I think what I would really love to to talk about is is the racist self actual races itself. For me, I felt very fortunate to have this front row seat to all of the action and it was it was a blast but I didn't necessarily have a front row seat to the first 114 miles of the race. So maybe let's let's start you off right there and and let you kind of give us a background on. This race. How, you know, why you got into this race? What you're hoping to get out of it. And then, just the, the very beginning. I say very beginning. First 114 miles, is this the first day and a half? Yeah.

[00:03:58] Jeff: Well the so the Moab 240, it's a 240 mile race that starts and finishes in Moab. So and like I said, Central Utah, and the the race is primarily going through the desert, but you do hit you exceed, 10,000 feet. A couple of times you get up into the mountains, which is nice, that makes this course quite unique. It's quite varied and I had done a couple of 200 plus miles races before, but they've always been in the Alps, they've always been in the mountains where you're doing a lot more hiking. This is a much more runnable race And for anybody not familiar with 200 mile race, with what's this means is that you're running nonstop or at least, you're moving non-stop, unless you choose to stop and say, have a nap and that's something that I did do I slept for total close to three hours over the course of three days? Some people will see a lot more but generally you're always moving, there are eight stations but it's different than say a staged race where you're running 50k a day and then you're stopping and sleeping. So there's no, you know, there's no extended periods of rest and the difference with this. Compared to the ones I've done in the Alps was that it was much more runnable. And so, even, even though it was actually technically my longest race ever, in terms of distance at 240, Mi 240 miles, it I had hoped going into it. That would be my shortest, 200 mile race. In terms of time to be moving, much quicker. And part of that was having a crew and having Pacers like yourself coming out to help out to help. Keep me moving to be more efficient which in Europe, you're not allowed Pacers, it's just not part of the running culture. There, same thing for 100 miles, most races I believe all Races in Europe that I know of that they don't allow Pacers and part of that is you just don't need them there, it's safer. The mountains, the trails are much more established, there's more infrastructure and support, whereas when you're racing in North America, you tend to be in true Wilderness and so Pacers are there partly for safety as well and so and then the second piece of that is having support just logistically it can be challenging to have support in when we're in. Europe racing because, you know, it's hard to fly your buddies over and not being a European local. I don't have a big Network to draw from. Whereas this time, we were lucky. We had, I had my girlfriend, Audrey. Crewing, me, providing support, but also, we had an awesome crew vehicle. That was provided by a company called Rossmönster. So that was awesome. It also helped with logistics for you guys as Pacers and generally when when you do have Pacers they they jump in around the halfway mark at the halfway point. So that includes if you're doing 100 mile race, or if you're doing a 200 mile or some shorter races, like 50 miles, also allow Pacers and again, usually it's around the halfway point. So, the general, the general Vibe is here on your own for the first half. And then, for the second half of the race, you can start to have help. And by that point, usually people are pretty spread out as well. So you are kind of on your own otherwise. And so, yeah, I had a couple of guys including yourself helping out and I did, I think we talked about it in the weeks, maybe even months, leading up to the race. And then I, I had just been so busy traveling. We had just come back from Spain. And before that, we're we had a jam packed somewhere in Europe. First world problems but like it did actually create I was really just like I was planning one Adventure at a time. So I was having a hard time even thinking about Moab until the last. Couple of weeks when we actually arrived in the Utah area. And that's why I texted you probably two weeks out go. I'm like hey any chance, you're still down for pacing and you probably thought I forgot about it by that. But yeah,

[00:07:28] Tayson: it got I think it was left. It might have been. Yeah. It was probably about 10 days out when you text me and I was like, I like I kind of had this like anticipation because I hadn't been training of like, if he reaches out, you know, like I haven't been training and I thought the window had passed so I I was like a full relief like, okay, don't worry about it. It's not gonna happen. You text me and I'm like oh it's happened.

[00:07:53] Jeff: Well in the good news is generally a Pacers. I mean you're you're coming in fresh, you're you're Hasting for maybe, you know, 10 20, 30 miles at a time Max. And so you know and at that point your Runners already put say 120 miles in their legs. In the case, if something, like Moab. So you're usually moving pretty slow, so it's not a big deal but yeah, no, it worked out great. I couldn't have done it without you guys, I had my buddy Kevin Hadfield as well pacing before that through the nights and It was a huge. It was a huge support. And you can do these races without support you can do, without crew, they have eight stations for a reason. You could do them without Pacers. But generally people do do use those, those support networks when they can. I mean if you have them available, why not plus I always say like why not run with somebody's you know it's it just makes the race that much more enjoyable.

[00:08:45] Tayson: Yes, actually in a race like this, you get so spread out because it's such a massive distance that you could, you could be running for a lot of hours without even seeing people talking to anyone. Right? Like you could go easily between Aid stations without ever seeing another person. Totally, oh, it would likely just break it up and make the race. Not feel quite so monotonous when you're doing that many miles. But let's let's back up for a second then. So this was your target races, your goal race on the year. You're really hoping for good results when I got there. You know I kind of proved you a little bit was just like what are you you know what are you hoping out of this and and you told me you know you wanted like a top 10 finish and And then and when I got to you, I mean, you were already well into that parameter. But walk me through because I'm curious to The pace and and what the first, you know, 100 miles is like, because to me, I would have no idea how to even start 100 mile race. you know you I'm sure I know for a fact actually that there are going to be people that are going to Jet out immediately and just have no idea what they're doing and they're gonna I mean it's probably would be me honestly if I was to attempt this race be like no I think I'm going slow enough. I'm I'm making myself go slow and it wouldn't be slow enough. Like you know, that would be what I would expect to happen. So yeah. Walk me through like that, beginning race strategy, and how those first legs went

[00:10:17] Jeff: So, the way I taste, any any race, whether it's a 50k, 100K 100, Mi or 200 is to think of it. As I want to get to the halfway point. Feeling good, maybe not feeling fresh, but feeling good. The race kind of starts in the second half of any distance. So, in the case of a 200 mile or it literally means running 100 miles feeling like you could keep going and feeling good, which is crazy, right? I mean 100 miles. That's, that's a long way, right? And that takes experience, like how slow enough like you said. So fortunately, I had done, I don't know six or seven hundred miles before and I've done a couple 200, so I kind of know what that feels like. It's my, it's not just my all day Pace, it's my all day, every day Pace, it's a shuffle, its making, every footstep, every Calorie you're burning. You got to make a count so no wasted energy and it's not just energy it's it's muscle fatigue, right? So you're thinking about that again, you're not jumping from rock to rock. You're trying to minimize the damage that you're causing to your muscles because that really adds up. Staying on top of your nutrition and your hydration. You cannot get into a deficit too early because there's no way you're gonna you're gonna climb out of that hole. And again, it's staying on top of sleep. So like I said, you do need to sleep a little bit and that takes experience. I had a sleep plan, we can get into that, and that was something I iterated on and developed over over the years. And so, I kind of knew what I needed to sleep. I knew that if I try to wait till the 40-hour Mark, I'm probably gonna be too tired and I'll dug myself into a hole, but I also know that I can't sleep. Say in less than 24 hours, I just won't be tired. I'll be too, caffeinated, I'll be too buzzed. So, you know, I plan for example, sleep around 34 to 36 hours and So those are things that you just learned over time, it takes, you know,

[00:12:04] Tayson: is it a perceived exertion that you're focusing on? Or is it like a? I'm watching my Mile's and I'm gonna slow this mild down.

[00:12:12] Jeff: No 100% perceived effort. And again, that's something you need to internalize over time, right? So I kind of have a feeling for what my heart rate is. So I'm not looking my heart rate, it's all perceived effort. Yeah, it's running by field, it's running by feel. And if anything I actually tend to be too conservative of a runner where I don't Start layering it on. So it's maybe too late and I run out of Raceway. You know, that's definitely what happened in this race. We'll just, yeah, yeah, so, I mean, that's something I could be a more aggressive Runner and, you know, in the future if I want to have even better results,

[00:12:45] Tayson: yeah, so you start off this race, you're with a huge group of I want to say 200 plus runners or in this race and He got people jet now, and I remember, I was kind of, you know, because again, in a race like this, I wasn't even in the vicinity of the race when this thing started, right? Because I I still had hours before he got to where I'm at but I and so I'm kind of watching in and looking at where you're at. And yes. So we

[00:13:10] Jeff: were wearing trackers, right? We have GPS trackers here. Able to follow my progress pretty closely. Yeah.

[00:13:15] Tayson: Yeah. So I'm watching that and I want to say when I first, you know, tuned into it, you're probably around like 30th place and then, you know, just every time I refresh it, you know, every 30 minutes hours or something like that, you'd be a few more spots up a few more spots up. You know you got you got into the top 20 pretty quickly or maybe you were never not out of the top 20, I don't know but that's kind of What I remember and then and then I just kind of remember you just slowly picking off one two at a time and that's how like the first. Let's say eight hours of the race from the outside. Went was just seemed very You know, the pack thinned out, it didn't it didn't, I don't know, you'd think in a massive race like this like it would take a long time for the packet and out, but I feel like it was it was getting thinned out pretty quick by even eight hours where people are spreading out a little bit more, you don't have that. That real surge. Because in the beginning, I mean, it looked like just A rampage and people are just. You know, you could tell like, hey, I know this is a good runner and we've got a whole bunch of people like right there with them. And it's like that how long is that Gonna Last? It's kind of something I was watching and paying attention to but it sounds like you were able to kind of stain your own head. Run your own race right out of the gate. But what do you? I don't know. What do you observing at this point? What are you seeing? What are you feeling?

[00:14:33] Jeff: Yeah, um, again, the first 100 miles from me and a race like that is a warm up and not a warm up in a way that. I mean it, you know, I'm usually warmed up after an hour or so but it's a warm up in the sense that I'm I'm getting a feel for how my body's moving. You know, I'm getting a sense for how my stomach is working out with the food and putting it at the eight stations and how I had handling the heat. I'm sort of learning as I go sort of discovering how Oh, this race is going to go for me because he can't force it, you know? The training is the training. I did the work. This is just the execution. Now, I'm not going to be able to force my body to do something. I didn't train it to do over the past six to eight months. So it's kind of going like, okay how well did that training go for me? How How well was my tapering period? Did I give myself enough time to rest? That I can missile too much my feeling sluggish? And so that's what it is. It's just listening to my body and letting everybody else do their thing and watching people go too hard, maybe and go. Oh, maybe I'll see you in a couple days or I'll see you in a few hours or whatever takes for that, maybe to catch up to you and that definitely happened. It can be stressful because you, you know, there's all this, like you said activity and you go to these Aid stations and there's 30 people sort of rushing trying to get out of there as though every second counts and that's the slowest down over time, right? By day two, that is not happening anymore. People are stopping and taking breaks. So you want to pace yourself, you want to spread it out, but you also want to remember, like, not every second counts and he's races. I mean, it can come down to minutes. It usually doesn't. But it's, you know, so you it really is just trying to ignore everything that's happening around you, right? It's so like you said, it's running your own race but it's sticking to your plan. So creating a plan, whether that be your pacing your nutrition. You know, how much are you eating? What are you eating? How frequently are you eating? And just sticking to it as much as you can? And that just means trying to tune everything else out.

[00:16:27] Tayson: well, you said something there that really surprised me because With how much preparation you do training and, you know, mentally and like planning, right? You have a lot of strategy. So, to me, it would seem like, Starting out and and being like, how do I feel and like dialing that in almost seems silly to me? Because it's like, you already know how you're going to feel like is how I would see it because you've dialed in so much and you've spent so much time in this. So when you're paying attention to that are you paying attention so that you can alter? That what 10 20% of your plans, you know, like that they would need to be altered, like, let's say whatever nutrition wise or operation wise like you're just like that's really what you're trying to pay attention to. It's like not like you're seeing, like am I gonna be able to finish this or not? It's like, it's like this nice edge of an elite athlete trying to pay attention to that. Hey, do I need to alter any of my plans from like exact planning, to this slight deviation of nutrition or pacing.

[00:17:30] Jeff: Yeah, you're right. It's not when I say I'm when I say sort of listening to my body it doesn't mean I'm playing it by ear. I Think of it more as a dashboard, right? You're driving a car. You know, the speed limit, you've got them, you know, you've got Google Maps up and you've got six hours to get to your destination but you're still watching. Are there any accidents on the road on Google Maps? You're still looking at your gas, you're looking at your, maybe your RPMs. Like you want to drop a fish and you don't want to waste gas, you don't want to, you know, speed too much and get pulled over for speeding ticket, like, that's what your dash is there. For? What you're trusting. That, the car is not going to break down now, sometimes your car breaks down, sometimes your alternator goes here, things happen, and that happens in races too. We trip, we heard ourselves. We we end up with GI issues that we've never had. Before we get blisters that can that can really affect our performance. So things happen, you can get a flat tire on the highway, but generally when you're driving, you've got a game plan and you're really just monitoring your dashboard to make sure that you're staying ahead of anything unexpectedly. Like why is my why is the temperature going up on my engine? Like something's going, you know, I better pull over and check this. That's all I'm looking for. That's really what I'm paying attention to you. But no, I'm basically sticking to my plan.

[00:18:38] Tayson: Yeah, so you're cruising along, you get to my 50-ish 60 and you pick up your first Pacer. Kevin And you guys are running. It sounded to me and I guess I guess I'd like to hear how it is but like you run 50 miles. I believe with with Kevin. Is that right 50 40?

[00:18:59] Jeff: I think I picked him up at Indian Creek at the 68 mile Mark, and he stuck with me to Shay Mountain at 115 mi ya 114. Yeah.

[00:19:09] Tayson: so, um, By the time you had got to me, had you had any warning Bells come off? Had, you had any signals on that dashboard? Come up of issues and how are you really feeling at that point?

[00:19:22] Jeff: Yeah. No, I had a couple of my check engine light came on a couple times by then I get to Indian Creek, 67 miles, 100 kilometers. No problem I picked up Kevin, but it was getting dark at that point. I was getting a little bit sleepy. There's this difference between being tired, being fatigued and being sleepy being drowsy and the drowsiness is honestly, the only issue I have these races. If it wasn't for drowsiness. If I could take a magic pill, that would just keep me awake and keep me alert. I could run for days. If it feels like weeks, I mean, I just I don't get physically tired. I just fall. asleep,

[00:19:58] Tayson: but you're hitting your marks, and that it's just drowsiness

[00:20:01] Jeff: it's drowsiness and caffeine it. You you build a tolerance for it it only it only lasts for so long and only works so well. So I was starting to get a little bit sleepy unfortunately not too bad but that's where when I picked up Kevin it kind of its a shot of it's something new. You've got a buddy with you. I hadn't I hadn't hung out with Kevin for a while. We had lots to talk about new stories jokes, you know, all that stuff. And so, so that kind of was like a bump of energy. but I so I was good, I was good throughout that period but then I do remember Coming up climbing up to Shay Mountain, we did have to go through a pretty. It was getting really hot and we had to go through this kind of Canyon area and then climb up this, this trail, that was pretty steep. We ran out of water. I ran out of water, at least and I got pretty dehydrated and that was the first time that I would say, I fell behind on my, my plan on my nutrition strategy on my hydration strategy. We just there was no water. On the stations are pretty far apart in this race. And even with crew, the crew can only be it's certain spots, right? And so, we had passed a creek early on, and I should have pulled the water there. I should have stopped and filtered and just Nature of hydrated because I did run out and what it meant was. By the time we got to Shay Mountain, I had to kind of catch up my hydration then I was good again. That's where I saw you and it was getting cool and I was fine again. But I've probably lost some time there and I definitely think drain myself a little bit just by falling behind in my hydration. That was my first sort of tactical error was was definitely on that. climb up to Shay Mountain.

[00:21:35] Tayson: yeah, I mean, when you came into that aid station, You had mentioned, you know, you're running out of water and you were, you were trying to get some extra water in and so that was something we were paying attention to. I find it funny that you you claim, like you may be lost some time there because you hands down where the most efficient person in and out of that age station. And at that point, when I picked you up, I want to say you're around 8th spot, you're just lost time on that leg. I think I lost time on that leg

[00:22:03] Jeff: and that I didn't get asked. It just thought, like for the first time I was running. Almost as hard as I could not as hard as I wanted to. You know. I feel like I was really just barely keeping up to a, you know, what felt like a good place at that point. Yeah. That perceived exertion was exactly. Taking exertion was a little bit, a little bit higher than it should have been up at that point back early in the race. Yeah.

[00:22:26] Tayson: Yeah. I mean you came into that aid station. I've been watching some of the, you know, first second, you know, Place guys come in and I'm actually the first place guy actually took a short nap. I can play sky. I mean, I remember him hanging out for a little while and a chair. And so when you came in I kind of was expecting like this 20 minute turnaround and I bet you were 10 minutes flat which in those scenarios is extremely fast. That's like you come in. You sit you maybe swap socks. You grab a little bit of fuel while people are filling your bottles and whatnot and and like you're out I mean that is extremely faster around. So you turn around, we hit the trail and we start climbing up to the first time we got. I mean, we crossed 10,000 feet, I'm pretty sure we got right next to 11,000 feet on both of these high mountain areas. but yeah, I mean that was It was really interesting to see Rick. I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that you've already been 114 Miles when I'm plugging in and, and just, you know what, that must feel like, what that must be like, and it was interesting, right? Because really, it seemed like Yeah, like the the drowsiness even then was like more of a factor than than like physically exhausted or any specific ailment wasn't like your legs hurt or wasn't like you had a blister coming on or you know things of that nature. It was really just just like cumulative fatigue and and then is it. As we went on, you know, kind of some of that drowsiness because you were you were considering sleeping at that aid station and we kind of said, hey, let's push this first 12 miles, and then have you sleep at the when we get back to the vehicle. So yeah. I mean it was it was really interesting to me to catch you. Pick you up in that position. And then I do think, you know, I remember us paying extra close attention to getting some of that feeling down early and that leg and you hit those marks and and things were just clicking along I guess. I don't even know what to extrapolate on that other than

[00:24:26] Jeff: I was it was cool. It was cooling down at that point and that's something that you know, there's these things you you just start to learn is there's these Cycles, it's hot. During the day, you're gonna feel like shit, you're gonna slow down. Your heart rate is elevated by five. Six beats you, you need to be drinking more, you need to, it's hard to eat when you're not drinking. So you fall back and nutrition if you're not, I mean, there's all these things that happen in the Heat and the minute that Sun starts to go down. You can feel like a new man in these races and you learn that and then when it starts to happen, you have otherwise, you know, because it is, it's, it's not a new day, it's a new night and you can really capitalize on that. So that's what was happening there. We had, you know, yes, I was getting groggy again, so it was getting dark, but it was cooling down and it was quite cool, right? We put our layers on. Like, it was, you know, we had a jacket song because we did, like you said, get up to close to 11,000, have Lance, can't have lamps came on and there was even some snow on the ground. There was frozen, frozen water for sure. But again it's like it was the new cycle because we're getting into that cooler weather. So I definitely had a couple hours and you and I had lots of talk about, right? Like we were just getting into it, so it was heading down to Monticello Lake. I felt like we really make good time and that's 12 miles.

[00:25:39] Tayson: yeah that first leg went by so quickly felt easy you know like you say we're that was the first time we'd met in person so yeah lots to talk about lots to run through and and I want to say, Trying to think if we passed anyone on that section or not, I remember we, I don't remember headlamps ahead and behind us. I want to say but I don't know that we passed anyone on that leg, but but it did seem when we got into the, a station that we had, maybe close some ground on some people in front of us and then we really when he came into to Monticello Lake there, it was dark and it was time for you to rest. So yeah, that's where the the Rossmönster came into play. You get to climb in this awesome rig. Audrey just has everything dialed in including things like a quick little. You know, foot bath and just Some of these are real pre-emptive things that they clearly came from from experience, right? Remember you doing? I think that's I don't know if that was or wasn't but you you know, you did have a few other little things like with with gators that you, you know, you swapped off getting a little bit too much pressure, but but really you're able to get in there. Get some fuel and you really quickly fuel that you wanted. You know, you did eat at the aid stations but almost never, did you get the aid stations when you had the crew accessible access points? So you know, you had you had your feeling there and then just as quick as you could, you got into bed through in those noise, canceling headphones through on an eye mask and It was off, right? So I actually just threw on some, some layers of clothes and I went and sat in the cab of the vehicle and waited for you to have about an hour nap which this is 30 something hours in and you're gonna sleep for one hour. At this point. You'd already run through one full night was with no sleep. And so yeah that's that's that's another kind of interesting thing, but you you're very calculated on your sleep. Where did where did some of the ideas of how much to sleep and when to sleep come into play for you, these were pre-planned very much but

[00:27:46] Jeff: this is pre-planned, I had. So there's only the crew accessible Aid stations. We're at 17 Mi obviously too early 68, Mi 114 at Shay Mountain, where I first picked you up, and then 126 where we where we did stop and I did finally sleep. The next one wouldn't be so 144, but I had this this pace calculating chart with these estimated times, where I kind of knew I need any any time earlier than Shay Mountain would be too early. I wouldn't be tired enough, but I also knew that I if I went too far past Monticello, maybe dry Valley at 144 miles, that puts me into that 34 to kind of 44 hour window where I would need my first nap. And I've just learned that from previous 200s where again if I tried to sleep At the 2428 hour mark, I laid down and I couldn't sleep. It would be a waste of time. Whereas if I tried to push past 306 and to say, 4044 hours, I might have duck myself into a hole and you end up losing time because you're moving so

[00:28:47] Tayson: close. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I want to know as like, what happens. It's someone with no experience of running races that cross the nighttime. I think I would be. It'd be easy for someone to try to not sleep or to try to push the envelope, right? And everyone kind of alludes to like all that can you can crash and burn Crash and Burn? Well what is crashing and burning? Look like sure if you push that too far

[00:29:12] Jeff: I mean, we know it's it's it's it's equivalent to being drunk, right? So being overly tired, and driving is the same as drunk driving. That's something that's talked about a lot and the way that looks on the trail, for example, Heading into the next night when I was on my own towards the end of the race. Jumping ahead to the, you know, 210 mile Marx say I was I was staggering on the road. I was running and I had false. I'm falling asleep on my feet as I'm running. And what would wake me up as I sort of run into the ditch? And I cast myself and come back on the road and I'm going back and forth. And I remember thinking, if a car comes from behind me on this Gravel Road, I I'm not gonna hear coming and I'm gonna potentially just stagger in front of them, so that's what it looks like. You're drunk running, you're trying. You're literally falling asleep, on your feet, and everybody tends to experience something similar, hallucinations are definitely part of the game here. Um that comes with that that fatigue with that drowsiness, I should say, but I think the real danger is just that you literally fall over, you fall asleep on your feet. And at some point you just can't run anymore. At some point, you can't even walk anymore, your eyes will not focus on the ground as much as you try your slapping yourself, you're doing everything, you can't. You're singing, you're talking to yourself and you just cannot keep your eyes open. Your body is going. Nope, I'm shutting her down and you at some point, you just need to sleep on the side of the trail. Do you decide with this Story.

[00:30:36] Tayson: Do you treat that? Do you train for know you?

[00:30:39] Jeff: There's no way to train for sleep, sleep, deprivation, you can train your stomach, you can train your legs, you can train every organ in your body, but to my knowledge, you cannot train for sleep deprivation. In fact, I think it's counterproductive because it's not good for you and going into a race trying to train for that. You're probably just going to hire yourself out and come into the racing fatigued. So, no, you cannot experience plays a big role in that though. I mean I said there's these cycle, like it gets hot during the day, but you can trust that when it cools down, you'll feel better, but the same thing when you're tired at night, you just need to trust that when that sun comes up at 5:36 a.m. you're going to see. You're going to get a second wind so sometimes when you're in that darkest place at four in the morning, staggering on the road, you know, from experience, you just got to keep moving for another 90 minutes and then, Come up and it'll be a whole new day until it gets hot. Again, of course, then you're gonna slow down, but there's these Cycles. So it's this period from me between 1 a.m. and sort of 435 a.m. That's kind of the, that's the tough spot, especially in that second third. And with these European races, even fourth night because some of those races, you're getting the cutoff times here like 150 hours. So you're talking about up to a week on feet potentially without sleep. I remember the first race I did or the second race I did in the Swiss Alps. I finished that one in 113 hours, the winner did it and something like 90, which is pretty quick for that race. It's got significant elevation change, Bree Everest. You're doing. That the winner of that race didn't sleep. And then something like, it was a 1010. No, 220 mile race, 260 kilometers. And apparently, by about the 180 mile, Mark, they stopped him. And said, you are not leaving here. That's sleeping because he just looked physically drunk. He couldn't focus his eyes and they forced him to sleep for two hours before he going. That's all he slept. He slept two hours and then entire race, but they force him too because they knew it would be dangerous to let him head back out into the mountains alone with no Pacer. Yeah, basically drunk, you know.

[00:32:44] Tayson: So that's it. So exactly to like, I think it was Courtney like, right? I mean but you're talking about like, the point zero, zero one percenters here, right? But I'm pretty sure Courtney, you know, there's there's claim that, you know, in her Moab race that she slept, like, like five minutes or something on the side of the trail, but like I think she had a few naps.

[00:33:04] Jeff: But yeah, I mean the elite. Okay, get away with it and you could argue that maybe that's one of the things that the people that are really good at these 200 mile races, maybe that's what they're actually really good at is that they're fast. They're fast Runners, they're not slow, but they're really good at just moving without sleep because that's a couple hours, you know, a couple hours, you can make up on second place. Yes. Sleep sleep is incredibly important and it played a role even in this race as we go along. But for you very calculated in how much time you wanted to sleep and whatnot.

[00:33:34] Tayson: Yeah. Do you leave you feeling or is it pretty rigid for you?

[00:33:39] Jeff: What? Yeah, exactly. So you just go back to that. I knew that I wanted to sleep. Up to three hours. I give myself three 60 to 19 minutes, Windows to sleep. I figured out, I would do two 90s or 360s in the end. It's 66 and 45 so I did 245 total. I didn't know exactly when I was gonna do that, but I was limited Again, by which Aid stations, I could do it at because I had this vehicle. And I knew from experience that quality of sleep matters, as much as quantity in these races. That includes the temperature. There is a reason why when we sleep on the side of the trail, it only since the last five or ten minutes is because you wake up shivering, your body. Wakes you up as a survival mechanism, you are not getting cold.

[00:34:22] Tayson: You think Moab is a red rocks and you're like, oh, it's gonna be warm, but that is high desert and it gets

[00:34:28] Jeff: cold, even in the bottom you run, when you run 120 miles, say your body is not operating at full capacity. So you're you're gonna give a hard time keeping warm as well. So again, I knew I wanted to prioritize sleeping in the vehicle. I have a sleep mask here, noise canceling headphones, but also I would have Audrey there to have crew to wake me up because it's stressful lying down. Not knowing if you're gonna wake up again in Thai, I've heard horror stories of people. There are alarm not going off or whatever and sleeping for two, three hours when they meant to sleep for 20 minutes. And even some of the eight stations in Europe, they have these systems, they have caught and they have, you know, you can put your name on the board and they'll wake you up at a certain time. But yeah, mistakes happen. Right misunderstanding. So, so just having knowing that I could, I had somebody I could trust to wake me up and I could fall asleep and stay asleep without stressing about that as well, but not waking up. So lots of factors. Basically told me I wanted to sleep in this vehicle. It would be warm and I could eat first and then sleep. And then when I, when I got up, I was kind of ready to go. So, that limited my options. So that's where we got to Shay Mountain, that's where I was saying, maybe I could sleep here, and at that, no, forget it Monticello's, only 12 miles away. When we got to Monticello, I knew that then I had close to 20 mi till we got to Dry Valley. So, that was when I decided to take that first nap and then that kind of left me with two more naps, budgeted for the rest of the race.

[Editor’s note: Jeff’s sleep schedule, caffeine use, hallucinations, and sleep-deprivation descriptions above are a personal account from the 2023 race, not a safe or general protocol. Severe drowsiness impairs judgment and movement; stop and seek appropriate support rather than copying an elite race strategy.]

[00:35:53] Tayson: Yeah. Yeah so after Monticello Lake that's where I feel like the race got really exciting I'm pretty sure we pulled into Monticello Lake at in the 8th position. We walked out of their in position. And it was like six but then almost immediately we got caught and kind of work. Yeah, running next to Austin that his name know, was that took third? That's gonna bug me now.

[00:36:24] Jeff: Sorry Aaron Aaron Aaron Aaron. Yes.

[00:36:27] Tayson: So he bought us. He had a Pacer and then so yeah, we're running right around like seventh position and it seemed like we at least got ahead of one spot with your with your nap and you know, the efficiency of that. And so we're heading into the night. And we're running essentially this section where we're running, majority of it is slight downhill fairly flat and we're running to Dry Valley, and this should have been about 18 miles, but this is, this is pure nighttime running. I want to say, we probably got back on our feet around 11, 12 clock, and it's just gonna be running that 18 Mile leg in the dark. And it was pretty exciting, because this is where your, your stamina. Your experience. Your training to me, really started to be noticed. So in this leg, you know, we're just moving along from from a guy who's just stepped in. Right? I've run what 12 miles with you but like, we're just moving along efficiently. We're not pushing it. We're not like sprinting or you know what I mean, or walking at times up the hill for just trying to keep that shuffle Pace going. And we start cutting across a few Runners and most of the ones that were coming across in the section and passing, I mean, they're either walking And then the little bit of time that you pass him, you can just tell that they're not. They're not in, nearly the spot that we're in because we're just moving. So, Efficiently. So, you know, wasn't we weren't having any of these issues. One of the guys Wes that we passed. He was I almost I was actually worried for him, he was like lean into the side and kind of Staggering and actually talked to a guy in the very last aid station. That was cruel. Who knew Wes? And he's like, oh, did he have the lean going like? Oh you always get like it's like this known thing for him

[00:38:21] Jeff: to believe the lean is actually. That's a potassium deficiency. That causes that lean that you see sometimes an ultra Runners. That might not have been what was happening here. I'm willing to bet that the guys who we were passing at that point, were the ones who didn't preemptively sleep. Um, I want to celebrate and they were the ones he tried to push it and got into that hole and that's a good example of where you think. Now, I know I want, I'm in fifth place. I want to, I want to stay ahead. It can I can hurt you because you can end up moving slower over the next four hours. When had you stop for 45 minutes? It had a nap. It would, you know, you'd have any legs for at least, three, four hours.

[Editor’s note: The claim that a 45-minute nap would restore a runner’s legs for three or four hours is an unverified personal estimate, not a general recovery guarantee or sleep recommendation. The claim linking a runner’s lean to potassium deficiency was also not medically established here; posture, fatigue, cramping, and altered movement can have multiple causes and may require medical assessment.]

[00:38:55] Tayson: Yeah, yeah. I mean in that that doesn't make a lot of sense but it's These were people that I think were ahead of you, you know, prior right. So whenever it was, whether it's them, like, slowing down that much, or, or maybe they did take a shorter nap or something. But yeah, I mean, we're, we passed quite a few and essentially, by the time we got to Dry Valley, we were in position. Four, if I'm remembering right. and, I think. some point, you know, we, you know, we'd been talking and it was like You're like you know I told you I wanted to be top 10 but top five was really like my private my private goal. Like I wanted to be in the top five I thought there was a good chance and and whatnot and so when we got into the top five you were you're very excited about it. You're feeling really good about it and Yeah. I mean you were just you were how to say? I wouldn't say you were like, just content but you were like You're like in the zone you're just like, this is great. Just gotta write like finish this thing out exactly like my strategy and everything's good. Right.

[00:40:07] Jeff: I remember I felt a little resigned to, I think I even said like. Now if I can just stay in the top five, I'm happy. And you're like, no, man. I think we can catch third and I remember thinking, like, Ah I'd be happy with forth you know my race hadn't really started yet in my head I was still kind of and also I mean at that point you're so heading into Dry Valley at 144 miles. I mean, I still had A long way to go right, look 75, 76 miles. So in my mind, I'm thinking anything, it can still happen. Like this race is not in the bag for me, even to finish necessarily. It was feeling pretty good. That I was finish it and pretty good that I would be able to hold that top five. But you know, by no means was I started to have Podium aspirations quite just yet because they were still so much race left.

[00:40:50] Tayson: Yeah, yeah. But by the time we got there the person that wasn't in front of us was Aaron and is like, we'd seen this Runner, like we'd ran, we'd shared basically some miles like right on his heels. And, and it was like, it's just kind of interesting for for, to play that out. And so we we get to to this aid station. You take another quick little nap, another short one, I believe, 4560 minutes and then we send you on your way to finish running that Knight solo and then we were gonna, you know, see in the morning and the original plan was that I was going to run this 30 miles with you. Be done. And, you know, you'd be on your way and it was it. I got pretty invested in this so we called it. Audrey took me back to my truck. I slept in the back of the truck and I said, you know, I'm kind of interested to run more with him. Like this is exciting and I think we can get him on the podium and like that's where my head is. I'm like everything that I'm hearing from everyone else, you included is like Jeff's conservative, you know, he's he always finishes so strong, you know, and and I'm just sitting there thinking he's just gonna get better after. I mean, I have seen a lot of these guys come through and you looked Physically in a better spot. And so it's like, What could happen here, right? And so then I I get excited so I go to sleep, like three and a half hours in the back of my truck, which is the dumbest thing. I should have slipped on the ground somewhere because I was like just crunched in a ball and crawled up. Yeah, and you know just it was bad but the next morning I get up and I'm like okay Could I run another 30 miles? Because the the scare here is that if I can't you know, run with you and keep pace and whatever that then that will derail your race because you need to stay with your Pacer.

[00:42:42] Jeff: Yeah, this is a policy, the policy where you cannot drop a Pacers. So if you and I had set out on that 30 mile stretch and let's say 12 miles and you your hamstring cramps up or something. I have to walk with you to the next state station, no matter how long it takes because I would not be allowed to drop you out, get I would get this qualified at that point and that was the risk. And in fact, that's where I don't remember if you and I talked about it but I had it in my head that you starting at Shay Mountain. The way we did, it was great because we'd never run before. But the next, those three eight stations in a row, you could have dropped out. If you had to see started with me at Shay Mountain, we got to Monticello Lake where I have my first nap. You were you were still good to go. You had done 12 miles, I knew right away. No problem. Tayson's gonna keep up, we then had another okay, whatever. That was the next 16 miles or To dry Valley. And at that point, you would also had a bit of a nap, no problem but now you had run like a pretty good chunk. Write 30 miles, 50 kilometers. You've done an ultra marathon. The question was now, could you do back-to-backs you know, with a few hour break? And you'd never done that before you didn't know, right. So so yeah and it

[00:43:47] Tayson: wasn't part of the original plan. Either write, it was not a part of the planet. It was more like me saying, I want to do more, I'm here I got the time like and but but yeah I mean it was so I'm wrestling with this and I get to the point where I'm like I feel really good that I can do this. I've got all my nutrition and stuff here to be able to do this. And so I kind of I I go ahead and go for like I did. I got up I you know was pounding, you know water and just things like that Gatorades and walking around making sure I didn't feel anything that was concerning but yeah, really what it was is when we got to that when you got into that next stage station, it was just gonna be. This is how I feel, Jeff? What do you think about me coming back in? How do you feel? About that. And I don't know if that you even thought about it. I think it was like you feel good? All right, let's do it. Like you, you

[00:44:37] Jeff: was gonna help because I was, I just done 26 miles in the heat running on these deserted roads this straight long run and I was moving, but it's like I was ready for a bit of a chain of pace. You know. I was ready for some somebody to keep me company again and it turned out. Like so this is Road 46. It was called we're basically turned off the, I just crossed the highway that's major highway and then we were about to head back up into the mountains, up to close to 11,000 feet for the second time. I was gonna be a 30 mile stretch, and it was the last stretch that we could have done because you took me up to Geyser Pass, right? I think that's yeah. Is that right? Yeah. So, another 30 miles, huge stretch. And that. It turned out that I really needed that because unfortunately again, same thing that happened on the climb to Shay Mountain. There was like no water and I got really dehydrated. I think both of us were a little bit low on water, probably carried a little bit more. You don't want to carry too much though, it's weight, right? So you are, you're walking this line between carrying extra weight and, you know, and having enough. But you were such a help there. I mean, we were just, we were looking for creeks and, you know, just You know, just just moving, just keep me moving. Keeping me my brain occupied, I'm sure I was barely saying anything at that point you're probably carrying the conversation but so I mean it was set, it was such a help having you for that. Second leg for a second stretch.

[00:45:58] Tayson: Yeah, and I didn't know. I, you know, I have no training Norfolk, Norfolk, no formal training on how to be a good Pacer. So really all I'm trying to do is is, you know, talked enough, not talk too much. But yeah, one of the things that I was trying to do Jeff secretly was I was trying to get you to push yourself harder than you wanted to because everyone including yourself just kept saying, like, I always finish so strong, you know, I've always got some of the gas tank and so to me it was like you're this far in its it's time to lean just a little bit more into this, you know, because percentage wise, you're whatever 70% or you know, something like that into this race. And so, you know, that's usually when like, if stuff was gonna happen, it's likely that it would have already been starting to show itself. Totally. And I also know, because I'm watching guys, come in and out of the gate station, right in front of you, the top three people now that you're looking really good compared to some of these guys. One of the guys Jesse he had nearly dropped out of the race around. Mile 14, dude, a foot issues. Sorting man like, how long is he gonna be able to handle these foot issues? And then I didn't know much about Jameson, but he, he seemed to be really strong. And then we'd seen Aaron and Aaron was just right there and, and he looked good, but, but he was, you know, it was tough because this was also, he was very young and new to a 200-mile race, he's never done one. Yeah, so, there's no question marks sitting there and so, we get into this next section. And so, what I'm, what I'm trying to do Jeff is I was just trying to always stay half a step ahead of you, as always trying to be just like, you know, and if there's a little bit, I'd like, I'd try to break into the jog, just a little bit, just a carrot, right?

[00:47:45] Jeff: Give me the carrot, yeah.

[00:47:46] Tayson: Yeah. If I walked right next to you, then then we slowed down at all or something like that. It was always, I wanted to be feeling to you, like, you were half a step behind and so it just pushed you just like and that was like,

[00:47:58] Jeff: I have no idea if that worked or not, but that this is what is going? Yeah. No. I think you're intuitions were banging on there and I should, let's talk about pacing for a minute. So there are no best practices. They're on a roles of pacing. I think that what you want to do is a pacer is you want to ask Runner. Like what do you need? Or you get to know what it would have run our needs some some Runners like to have their Pacer ahead of them. Setting the pace and I like that. I like having somebody to to chase a little bit. Yeah, going just a step or two faster than me and, you know, making me keep up. Sometimes you want to be the runner wants you to be behind them. Sometimes they want you to just talk, tell them stories make tell jokes, you know, I've got buddies who will bring lists of jokes or whatever, right, and they can just keep their mouths shut and listen and just try to pass the time other times, they just want you to shut the hell up for a while and just, you know, just be there with them and keep them company. So it depends right and you can ask your Runner what they want from you but I think you nailed it, I think you're into ocean was banging on. And yeah, in that section like again, this is one of those cases where I fell like I was going so slow. I felt like I was falling apart, I felt like I was slowing down but I think relative to the rest of the field.

[00:49:02] Tayson: We weren't doing too bad because that's the other thing I was trying to do is I was I was refreshing, the phone and saying hey I'm just watching this but like second place is catching First place and third place is catching all so but guess what? We're catching them and so you were like we got to the section. This section is so weird because we climbed up on the little plateau. And you can see so far, you can basically see 15 miles of what we were going to be doing and mentally that does something to you because you feel like you're making progress and then you don't, then you feel like you're making progress and you don't when you can just see the whole picture in front of you. And a time, we got to really like the last five miles or four miles of this. You start to climb. It's not a crazy steep climb but it's but it's an exposed hot climb and And it's just, like, just kept going. And that's about where we started to say. Wow, we're we're getting low on fluids now. Yeah, but one of the things that was exciting was I kept refreshing, I said dude first second and third place are almost on top of each other. Like they are so close. They're so close and we are catching them. You know like there was there was even maybe some hope that we would catch at least, you know third place guy by the time we've got to that aid station and so well you

[00:50:20] Jeff: were so we had that was a 30 mile stretch between the crew accessible Aid stations between the next place that you could jump out. There was an eighth station in between that at 15 miles then, and did we not? Catch Aaron and he ran out of there, right?

[00:50:33] Tayson: Yeah. So that's where we caught him. We were hoping to catch. I was almost thinking we were gonna catch him before we got to that 15, Mile 8 station. Um, but yeah, we did, we did start to look like so right where they started to slow down on my. Oh my gosh, we're gonna catch him. We got to that section and we slowed down a bit due to hydration. The exposure and the exertion, right? Because there was, it was kind of a sneaky climb where it doesn't look like a climb but we were climbing, you know, thousands of feet essentially to get right to this next aid station where we really started climbing. But yeah, we roll into this next aid station and this was the big kicker for me too, right? Because actually hadn't done an eighth station with you. I had done one where you slept, and I picked you up and I dropped you off at 8 stations, but I hadn't done I roll in with you in a lot with you from the same aid station with the crew. And so, I remember it was like, you know, whatever that is hours and hours of time on feet to get to this aid station and I'm thinking, oh, it's gonna be so nice. I've been dreaming about the same station sitting down, you know, getting some food, getting some fluids and just kind of relaxing for a second. So, I turned you right before we get there, and I say, how long do you think you're going to spend in the states station? And you said I got to do this, this this maybe, maybe 10 minutes 11 minutes, like you like it was like like down to like the minute. And I was just like I thought you were joking at first I'm like wait for real I'm like you think you can turn the station and 10 minutes after we've been out here for four or five hours and and you're like yeah that's what I try to do every time. And I was just shocked. I was like, oh my gosh, I did not expect that, right? I thought you'd want to sit down just just. Rest for a second you know what I mean? And and sure enough we were all in there. Aaron is there and he's sitting there and he's he's resting right? And we get in there. I mean immediately I'm thinking okay I need to help Jeff but I need to help myself too. So I'm trying to get fluid. They're helping you, I'm you know, we're going through this and and then they asked us what we want to eat. And you're like, oh, let's get hamburgers into the start, making them your side. Oh, and make sure they're to go, right? And I kind of turn them like wait. Okay, we're taking these to go and we're not even gonna sit and eat and Aaron over her that part and immediately got uncomfortable. Like he, he kind of perked up immediately and started to get his stuff together because he realized that we were just gonna fall on passing in that age station if he didn't get out of there. And so So yeah, he gets this stuff together he heads out and I would say about the time I mixed my drinks and you know had everything back in my backpack. I can't even remember if I sat down. I if I did, it was for 20 30 seconds and then we have our hamburgers in a bag and we were, we were back out of there and it was so efficient so calculated and It was just exactly. It was just so strategic, right? Because I I know, even from the small Ultra is that I've done smaller distance Ultra is that I've done. That I've, I mean, it's, it's very easy to get sucked into those Aid stations and even five minutes at one aid station and then five at the next and five at the next. Or and it's not even five, right? It go, it goes so fast.

[00:53:50] Jeff: 20 minutes goes by in a heartbeat exactly.

[00:53:53] Tayson: Doesn't even make sense. It doesn't not make sense how it can happen. But incredible efficiency. And we absolutely shaved. I would, I would guess at least 10 to 15 minutes off of Aaron in that one single stop. Yeah, I mean anything to weigh in on just in that side of things, I mean this that was very much to you that seemed like 100% normal and exactly how you execute as many of these Aid stations as you can.

[00:54:17] Jeff: Yeah. Because this race like this, we had what? 18 aid stations. You could imagine five extra minutes in each, right? That's that's a lot of time. The there's this comes with experience that was well, right? So I sort of have a few ways to look at an aid station. I i a few roles I come on, come in with a list. so I'm coming in going, like, okay, I need To whatever, Lube my toes. I need food. I gotta really fuel this and this, and I'm repeating that in my head. So, when I come in, I got a plan. I don't graze, I already know what I'm gonna grab for food. Well, I mean sometimes you have to ask like, hey, what do you guys have here? Oh, you got Burgers. Great, but I come in knowing, like, I'm looking for hot food and I'm gonna get it to go. And that's the second piece. It's it's getting the food to go eat while you don't have to run out of the Aid Station, you can walk but you should be eating while you walk. So the name of the game isn't like you don't have to be moving fast and these races but you have to always be moving as much as you can Relentless for Progress that's the name of the game. That's

[00:55:20] Tayson: Like it just makes me think a lot about your also your experience in in fastpacking when I talk to a lot of fkt guys like that is the thing, right?

[00:55:30] Jeff: Exactly. Yeah. It's very similar to MIT to through hiking. If you want to do big days you're eating on the while you walk here. You know, it's just saving time. Not wasting time sitting that's what you're aiming for and part of that is managing your time. So the third piece which only really applies when I'm going to a crew accessible aid. Station is I'll say every 10 minutes on the timer and she counts down. Okay, you got five minutes left, you got two minutes left. So it's having somebody watching the time is so important. And it's okay to take longer, you might say, you know what, I need an extra four minutes but you're watching the time otherwise the Time Slips Away. And there's also a thing, the beware the chair. So it's not to say, you can't sit but the idea is sit while you're doing something sit, while you're hacking, your bottles and doing things, but you're not just sitting for the sake of sitting, I mean this you're in a race, right? If you're sitting because you're tired. You're not, I mean, you're either sleeping or you're moving.

[00:56:24] Tayson: yeah, well it was it was extremely efficient and and I want to also maybe About nutrition for a second here. So from my perspective right which most people listening to this will relate more to my experience than Jeff's because they're not doing 200 mile races or. But with the Ultras I've run I've had severe GI issues. You know, first one was massively due to hydration and then an over saltiness and then the second one was actually more of a cramping than an eating, but but the thing that shocked me in this one Was at this at this pace and at this exertion level. For me, I was able to still eat which I was kind of, I kind of get in the role of like, okay, all of my fuel is gonna be super quick, small digestible items and liquid calories and but I was able to eat, you know, a full hamburger at that age station, as we walked out. And And it sat, and it was, it was really surprising to me. And then the other aspect was I just had Relentless issues with with sweating and cramping and hydration. But with this race, even though it was exposed, it was significantly cooler than the race that I had done that summer and usually I'll have to drink, you know, a leader and a half of a fluid an hour. In that race I did in the summer. I drink 17 liters of fluid and was still cramping and still not hydrated enough. Whereas this one I was getting by with about a leader an hour and I felt really good. and was able to put down calories and I definitely gave me some hope for for some different challenges in the future which I'll come back to but for you you know, you are fueling. Similar to how I am but but you're having to do it for a very long period of time. And so curious, just maybe share some high-level inputs on what you're doing, fueling wise and and what you're trying, any certain benchmarks that you're trying to hit.

[00:58:34] Jeff: Feeling strategy going into this white. I mean part of this is you got to play it by ear and sort of see you know what you can stomach at different times and you're kind of rolling with the punches a little bit but first of all I would say though your experience of you know, good at This that really is I think that's a lesson for you about how a lot of this comes down to Payson. Um, when we're cramping in races often? It's because we are pushing ourselves, maybe a little bit too hard. We're running a little bit outside of our comfort zone based on where our training was at where a fitness was at. So I think this is a good example of where it's not so much about the distance. I mean you covered you know say that second stint of 50 kilometers. If you imagine that pace like yeah you probably wouldn't be super happy with your finishing time. If it was only 50 kilometer race but it tells you that on the opposite extreme. If you go slow enough, Distances, they're not that hard, right? It's all relative to pace. So, sometimes I think we need to adjust their expectations, a little bit, slow it down a little bit. And then with experience as your training improves and gets more consistent, you can dial that that speed back in. You can you can wrap it back up again with each race. and, With the 200 miles distance. I mean, it is, it, you're moving, but you're not sprinting. I mean, you're so you are able to digest real food and you have to, I mean, you cannot run for three, four days on sugar. Try but I mean by day two, your mouth is completely destroyed in your you know, your Gees, your stomachs just a mess. Right? So I basically, I go into these longer races trying to eat real food as early as I can, and as often as I can. So I'm still using sugary Foods, I was still drinking a lot of drink mix. Now, I was using Näak powder, which is a an energy drink mix. That's also got protein and amino acids which are great for multi-day events. So, I was getting a lot of protein in from my drink mix. I was eating the odd gel and, you know, taking in some other sugary foods. But I was mainly getting my calories from Real Food. I had several Burgers setting, I had a burger a day I had I was having wraps, I was having Sushi. When I saw Audrey I had passed that I had rice. I was eating all sorts of real food back at the crew vehicle. I had at one point, I sat down and had a whole breakfast egg. Bacon potatoes for this promotes station and I, you know, after a couple minutes, I looked at the clock and asked them to put it in a wrap and wrap it up for me. I ate that on the way out of the 8th station, so I was eating, I was eating real meals. My base metabolic rate is probably around 2500 calories a day. I was probably burning another, what? I'm gonna 10,000 calories a day. You know. So probably burning, 30, 40,000 calories over the course of this phrase. I wasn't gonna take in that many calories just from gels alone so we're talking full thousand calorie meals. We're talking a couple hundred calories of sugary Foods an hour on top of that. So I was doing a pretty good job of replenishing problem. I don't know. Probably 60% of the calories. I was burning. And that's about 6,000 race. Like this. I was probably doing about 6,000 a day. Yeah.

[01:01:44] Tayson: Okay.

[01:01:45] Jeff: Yeah, just very rough math. Again, thinking about I was doing about a couple hundred calories an hour, just from my drink, mix a couple hundred calories an hour of sugary Foods. Plus again, a good kind of four to 800 calories, probably every couple of hours, every three or four hours of real food. I was eating a lot. I was eating a lot so much so that these races like, you know, after a couple days here, You're you go through a lot of highs and lows in these races, right? A lot of high points, a lot of points for your, like, I would want to be anywhere else and a lot of times where your questioning your life choices. The questioning late, what got, you know, this mess in the first place. And one of those things is I get tired of eating. I get tired after a couple days. And I love eating, I love eating. That's it's a sport for me. But after a couple of days of obsessively just trying to shove food down your gullet, it's much as you can as quickly and often as you can, Start it weighs on you a little bit and you start to think, like I just can't wait to forget, forget sitting down, I can't wait to stop eating for a while. It's hard. It's hard to force that many calories down. And so that's part of that that's that's kind of the name of the game here. It's Then say Ultra Ultra marathons are an eating contest. You're not going to win by eating more, but you will definitely not finish a race like this by not eating enough.

[01:03:06] Tayson: Yeah. I think that's well, well said for sure. And and yeah I mean I think that was a huge factor. For me is just the fact that I was able to eat made all the difference in the world for me to not hit in the walls, and not hit into issues. And Yeah, I was

[01:03:25] Jeff: actually jump back in say one more thing to multi-day races are a little different as well, we were thinking about other macronutrients as well. So I do I've learned that I do need to not just focus on cars, but also protein and fats as well as you get into that second and third day, mainly because it really helps with your recovery. I thought much better after this. I had much less water attention, protein helps to regulate your that water retention as well. And the mistake I made in my very first 200, 200 years ago, was that? I mainly just the past, I mean, they just say carbs and I recovery, it took, it took ages. So that's another thing to consider as well. It's not just how often and how much you're eating, but what you're eating is, well is important multi-day races.

[01:04:07] Tayson: yeah, I really want to try the the Näak products that you use and promote just because of the protein factor, and I think that will really help me in some of my GI I think are just be good for me. Honestly, I'm a bigger framed guy I guess and there's no way I'm not doing some serious damage to to the body I think moving through and so replenishing that protein as you go, I'm sure is gonna have some benefits. And so I'm yeah, I'm gonna try some of those this next season last thing on feeling a nutrition. Well, two things. First thing I want to mention I was I was using the COROS watch and I was, we loaded the maps on their navigating became a big factor, which we'll talk about shortly. But also we I set a nutrition reminder for every 35 minutes. And so this would just chime at us and every 35 minutes, I'd call out, hey Jeff, there's your nutrition Bell and you would just be that reminder to you to be like, okay, have I had anything recently? If not, then I'm gonna eat something right now and that was a huge help. Just, that tiny little reminder, just keeps things on schedule and that's something that you can do with, with a watch. So be aware of that, that was, that was very helpful. Fueling wise, excuse me. Hydration wise, is there any rough benchmarks that you were trying to hit in this is it just purely by feel free for you at this point because of your experience? Or is it like you know, I do aim for a leader, an hour or something like that.

[01:05:41] Jeff: Yeah, it's roughly a leader an hour. It's kind of depends overnight. I drink less when it's warmer. I drink a lot more a race. Like this is difficult. And that you are going from the day through the night. The eight stations are quite far, apart pictures, huge temperature swings, the a stations are very far apart. It really is a bit of an Adventure Run in that way. And even different elevations, right? So, you're, you're hydration needs to shift compared to a race. Like I've done stage races in the desert where I was running. Five hours, five, six hours a day, but the eight stations were very well spaced say, 10 kilometers, six miles apart, almost like clockwork. You'd hit one of those once an hour, so it's very easy in that situation to say, okay, I'm going to drink two bottles, an hour. And if you see the eighth station coming up, my rule is yet to quickly Chuck. What you have left, never go into an eighth station with full bottles. It's a missed opportunity to have gotten some more, some more liquids, and This one's a little bit trickier. So this one I definitely I think I had it. My in my mind that I would try to drink. Yeah, but a leader an hour. But in reality, it was probably there's periods where I fell wait behind. And then I remember going to a couple eight stations. Now, I remember drinking like a leader of Coke, and a leader of water and, you know, I was just chugging like liquids at one point to try to catch back up. It probably averaged out to about a leader an hour though. It's hard to say.

[Editor’s note: All calorie, macronutrient, fluid, electrolyte, cramping, recovery, and product statements above are personal estimates from a multi-day race. Nutrition and hydration needs vary; excessive or insufficient intake can be dangerous, so use qualified individualized guidance rather than these figures as targets.]

[01:06:59] Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. Okay so this is where the race gets really interesting. Alright, I'm here, my goal is to get you in the top three to push you over that limit and make sure that you you reach your potential here and don't back off with this. Slight bit of you that was kind of acceptable in the top five. So we see Aaron, we know he's right in front of us. Now, we know the other ones we didn't see them at the Aid Station. I almost expected to when I was, you know, watching the phone. But the service was so in and out that it was really tough to know, so we missed them. Aaron, was there we leave? We know, he's just I don't know, maybe three, three minutes up. The trail from us, something like that for minutes up. The trail from us. And this is where the client, you know, our next big climb is going to happen, right? So we're climbing from my wanna say this aid, station was probably somewhere around 75 or 8,000 feet in elevation. And we're gonna climb up to basically the high point in the race at 11. I've got another big climb and we're all so, you know, getting into high elevations. So air is getting a little thinner. And the trail itself was also different as well. So we start climbing up through this, this almost there's like Deer Hollow or something like this and you're just climbing up this long Canyon and there's you know, Fallen trees at times. Yeah, I wasn't perfect. So it's it's not and it's not perfectly graded. You know what I mean? This is, this is, um, and these are the things that weigh on you when you're this far into a race. Because, you know, lifting, your foot from like this, like this height to the next, you know, even three four inches up over a stone or a log or something like that. It's like another exertion level that that's become even more. Additionally, fatiguing. And so, we're working our way up this. And to be quite honest, I don't think me or you thought that you were making good time. We thought that we thought that we were, maybe one, click on where we wanted to be, as kind of how I said,

[01:08:55] Jeff: like, we were slowing down. It felt like we were going to slow. Exactly. Yeah,

[01:08:58] Tayson: and I think you'd always thought a few times like, sorry, like I have, you know, I just, I'm gonna I'm gonna rest here for a second or You know, just just little tiny things where where it felt like if we were trying to aim for a five, we were just sitting at a four. And we're just moving along and we're, we're still moving like we're very rarely. At all like full-on stopping. It's just consistent. We're just we're just dialed back that that and I

[01:09:24] Jeff: think at that point I did, I was, if I remember correctly, that was when I had to start taking micro naps which are literally, this is something that you start to experience. Going to your second night. Leaning over your polls and closing your eyes for like 10 seconds and then just lifting up, again, as a reset. It just giving your eyes a break, just, you just want to close your eyes for a few seconds. Now, I was doing that. I think I was doing that a second here. You did that right before

[01:09:47] Tayson: we got to the other aid station and I'll be honest, it kind of freaked me out because I didn't know what you were doing and so I never heard of these and so they're like, hey, I just need a second and I kind of took another step or two and I look back and you're just like, leaning, kind of head on your poles. Basically, like I said, yeah, and I like caught me off. Like is he okay? Like what just happened? What's going on, you know, if I just kind of sat there in silence letting you do your thing for like 30 seconds and then you stand up. Okay, let's go. And I was just like what just happens. I think I asked you

[01:10:19] Jeff: honestly was that about sometimes that's all it takes. It's just it's the and actually when I'm running on like a dirt road, all often closed my eyes as I'm running. If I know there's nothing to trip on, it's the same thing. It's just not having to focus your eyes again. This is this is something you don't experience. In day-to-day life, where you're you haven't really slept for a few days, it is hard to focus your eyes after a while. So just being able to close your eyes, not sleep, just close your eyes. It's like a mic. Just allows you to turn your brain off for a second to not have to use your senses as much, right and so that's I do remember having to start doing that at that point. And the thing that are the thing that you you learn, or that you have to remind yourself is whatever you're feeling that moment. Everybody else is feeling the same thing. So, when we were having a step over those big logs, I mean everybody else was too and some of them had not great looking feet, you know. Some people may be pulled a muscle by that point or whatever. So it's You always have to remember, whatever you feel and you're not every other Runner still in the exact same thing.

[Editor’s note: The micro-naps, running with closed eyes, extreme fatigue, and course observations above describe Jeff’s historical race experience. They are not safe techniques for ordinary training or travel, and another runner’s condition does not establish that continuing is safe.]

[01:11:16] Tayson: Right? And I think that's something that, you know, got a little bit disconnected from us but then it came full circle pretty quick because it's going up through this, through this Trail. You know, obviously were at this point we are just trying to get on the podium. That would be the most amazing thing. Get into that third position. We're right behind a guy in third position. And so we're going through this climb, we're going through this climb. And I would say about halfway up the climb, there's kind of a false false Summit where you get up to this past and you actually drop back down and right there, we bump into Aaron again. And now we're just we're just honest Hills about You know, 70 yards behind him,

[01:11:54] Jeff: and he was flying by. Now, the sun had just said we saw his headline, so we're like various right there.

[01:12:00] Tayson: Yeah, well, well, not only that, though, we sum, we saw when we could still see him without the headlamps, but what was happening is we would catch up to him and then you'd be like, I'm gonna take off my jacket and we'd stop, you take off your jacket and get another 100 yards, then we'd like slowly catch up to him back. I'm gonna grab this Fuel and it happened at least three times where I'm like, oh my gosh, like we have been on his heels three times and and it was just so funny to me, right? Because It's intense. So intense, right? But you guys are like exhausted. And I mean, everyone's exhausted. We're coming into a night, like it's getting darker and it's like the most slow motion passes how I'm feeling, right? But it's still so

[01:12:40] Jeff: exhilarating. Well, it's like I know from experience you want to make these passes the slices and I can't remember if I used those words, but it's like, if we're gonna pass this guy, we're gonna pass him. We're not gonna let him pass this again. So you only do it when you're ready to go, when you've you've just had calories. For example, I would never pass anybody without eating first, cuz I know that at some point, he might have to stop eating the next half hour, not stop, but slow down to reach for something. So part of that, I don't remember exactly that moment but I'm sure part of that was preparing for the past.

[01:13:09] Tayson: That makes a whole lot more sense to me because I wasn't sure, you know why? But that that's exactly what you're doing is you were you were making sure you were in a great position to make that path. Because, you know, if you had to, if you pass them and then immediately we were like, hey, I think I need to take my jacket off or pass them and said, you know, I need to grab this out of my pack, so that does make a lot more sense. I mean, I think, at that point, like we were gonna catch him. Just a matter of win, right? So so here we are. We're getting really close. Now to the top of the entire climb and we can see his headlight now. It is completely dark, and we're kind of just, you know, 100 yards back or so from his headlamp and we're gaining on him and we come up on him. And we see a headlamp kind of looking back at us and it was a little bit of a shocker like, oh, I wonder why he stopped. You know what I mean? Like we've been chasing this whole time, so we go to pass him and I just about to pass him, we realized. Well, that's not, that's not Aaron. Like that's, I think it was Jameson, Taylor Pace, Taylor was his last name. James, I'm not could have been could have been maybe,

[01:14:13] Jeff: that's what. Yeah, Taylor who had been in first most of the race in Jesse were, you were just switching

[01:14:19] Tayson: back and forth. So Taylor, okay. Taylor is standing there just completely stagnant with a Pacer, not moving,

[01:14:27] Jeff: and with his puppy jacket on. I remember both of us noticed that because we had heated up, we had taken our jackets off, we were climbing and he, there he is with this big puffy on and both of us looked at each other and thought that or said that's, that's not good. Like he's he shouldn't be standing on the side of his trail with the puffy jacket on on this guy. I mean I asked him I said, are you guys okay?

[01:14:45] Tayson: Like are you because that's that's usually a sign that like they're not okay they're stopped, right? They're not moving anymore and they said yeah they were you know just needed to reach in and but it was clear he had hit a wall or had an issue and so literally we're like both in shock now because we just moved into third place and we're like he was supposed to win this thing. You know what I mean? Like it's kind of he was chasing down, number one, the whole time looked in good health and a lot of these Aid stations, I mean of the of the people in front of us when I had seen him come in and out of 8 stations, he'd looked probably the best and so we're processing that and then but then, Right. There, we are 10 yards behind Aaron all the sudden and, you know, and we we make that pass as well. And so, you know, after hours and hours and hours of checking all the sudden, it's like, boom, we go from fourth to Second Place. Yeah. In 0 seconds, flat I mean to talk to me, I guess about what that felt like to you when that when that presented itself.

[01:15:47] Jeff: Well then the problem. The problem is that, that and we were Running Scared. Meaning Aaron wasn't too far

[01:15:52] Tayson: behind us made that comment you remember. I said, as we're passing, I said, dude, you're killing it. Great job. No, no, like context of like anyways, he was like, oh, I'm not done yet. I'm right behind you. Type of like he made these comments back to me and I was like, oh no no I wasn't trying to say we just beat you or anything like this. There's still 60 miles left.

[01:16:13] Jeff: You know, I think it's different and I know you're intense. That's to say, you know, that's work. Yeah, I think he would say something like like, he got this man and he's like, yeah. Don't worry, don't count me out yet, you know, and I think he is being. Yeah. No. But that's okay. You're playing mind games for me, that's great. The problem is then we'd passed him but it was. The question is was a decisive enough? Now we're running scared. I mean now we're racing and that's fine. I mean it was late in the race at this point. We were you know probably 192 miles into the race and so it was time to it was time to race but that that's one thing. Switched a little bit. So now instead of me being right behind Aaron biting my time for the past I'm now trying to put some space between us because out of sight out of mind and he's races. And part of this at night, It's Tricky. You want to get ahead far enough that he can't see her headlamp as well. So I remember we were we were moving, we were looking back and making sure, you know, how much time we're putting on and we're, you know, it wasn't for sure. And now I had this loss of version. You know, I found myself into second place, I didn't want to lose the second place. I wasn't necessarily getting for first. We didn't know where Jesse was but I didn't want to lose that second place. So, it was on at that point.

[01:17:23] Tayson: Well, in, in the other thing that was kind of a change in a worry was okay. Well, we were catching him on the climbs and we knew that we were actually out climbing both of the people. We just passed, but we didn't know, was right as we passed them. It started going downhill. And so like, well, are they going to be better at downhill than us? Right. And so we didn't really know and so yeah. I mean, you kind of look at each other and say, hey, let's put in, let's put in, at least, you know, mile or two of good hard, press miles and see if we can't build a little bit of a buffer and that's, that's exactly what we did. We we sped it up on some treacherous ground, might I add because It was. In the day, it was just rough because the leaves had fallen on top of whatever debris was underneath and so you could step on a rock, you could step on a round, you know, twig that could roll under your foot. It was actually quite sketchy at times because you just couldn't see what was underneath you plus you got these slippery leaves you know a little bit of wetness and stuff and you have a year like with the Fall colors but

[01:18:25] Jeff: yeah, you're right. It was like a week or two too late. All those leaves had fallen down and you couldn't see the ground underneath. So it was a little bit a little bit sketchy on tired legs right there.

[01:18:34] Tayson: Yeah. There was some slips and some I remember being very even on the way up. You step sometimes and your foot would roll out from underneath you as you went to to push off of it and it's kind of an interesting tiny little window that we happened to be in where that was a factor. But yeah we put in some hard miles and that I would say is where the map in the COROS watch. Really played in the play because I had never actually used to watch to navigate but That kind of became my role as hey, run out, maybe 20 yards ahead of Jeff and just make sure we're seeing on trail, especially in some of these. And there was one time that I we did have to navigate just a little bit which was

[01:19:15] Jeff: yeah, a couple times. We were Bush whacking, we were stepping over massive trees. I yeah, one in particular where was really helpful? I remember you went way ahead and you, Wax through and found your way through. Again the course like it's flagged but it's it's not, you know, it's not flag like a 50 kilometer course would be. It's hard to flag 220 miles to 240 Mi to that degree. And so when you're on an established Trail it's one thing. But there were definitely points for you to come into a clearing. And it wasn't obvious where to go from there, and we'd have to spend a couple minutes sort of searching again though. If we were doing it the other Runners were doing it. So fortunately I don't think we ever lost more than a minute or two here and there it didn't I couldn't imagine it added up and it happened a couple times. And I was alone too, which was more frustrating. because then, I'm Ending my, you know, that I missed something that I, you know, I have to backtrack. I would say I probably lost 15 minutes in total throughout the race, which sounds like it's. It's about the minimum that most Runners spent looking for Flags.

[01:20:13] Tayson: Yeah. yeah, I mean honestly I think we we made up ground even with some loss there this was one area where I think having a Pacer helped a little bit because And I'll get to that here in a second when when we get to this next eight station. But yeah, I mean, we're navigating, we're going through this area, I do remember this section kind of dragging on a little bit, kind of being like, like we kept thinking we were there and then yeah, I was actually I had actually thought that maybe we were getting close to Jesse and that he had missed a turn and so I'm trying to look in the ground and say foot tracks in front of us or not there's times, I couldn't see him I thought are we in first place? You know like yeah it was just it was chaotic but it was all so You know, just a great section to go through and push through and we were as we're getting close to Geyser Pass. We finally look up and we do we see two headlamps on the hill in front of us and we know there's first place. He's right there in front of us now like we can actually see him as hard to tell exactly how far I remember I tried to time it and I want to say it was about 10 minutes up on us.

[01:21:23] Jeff: Tough. I mean that's terrain was undulating. I remembered it would drop down. We could cross a creek and reclaim straight back up. And then, you know, it felt like I were going up where we going down, like, what's happening here? You know, it just didn't feel like we were making progress again. Everybody else was in the same boat. We were going through some Trails. I remember that were overgrown. We're kind of having a swim our way through. I mean,

[01:21:42] Tayson: it definitely cold too because sometimes those are splashing, you know, moisture on you from doing stuff. And so you're and then the wind picks up there on that side of the hill,

[01:21:53] Jeff: and how are you feeling at this point? Because I know you would never really run through the night and Is now kind of your second time like your second night almost right? That you're running through.

[01:22:02] Tayson: Yeah. Um well I have this superpower of mentally just always knowing that whatever I felt it was like not as bad as you so it was like I had this role where I didn't even think about like I knew I had to hit my nutrition and I was doing that like I was in that seat of the car or whatever that role that I just wasn't thinking a lot about how I was feeling. I do remember. Do you remember? Like bouncing down the trail and almost slippery leaves and stuff. One point I said, you know, my lower back is like hurting for some reason which I remember was just kind of caught me off. Guard was a little bit strange but know for the most part I felt really good and was was was was feeling happy that I had done the second leg, right? Because yeah, there was a moment, you know, especially starting out, we're like, oh, is this gonna be a good idea? A bad idea. And but now, as soon as the nighttime came and it cooled off, I was like, okay, we're like I'm gonna good spot but but no running through the night. It wasn't, it wasn't actually. It wasn't hard for me, but I've only but, you know, it's different because I'm not running through the whole night full time. I'm tapping out and I'm with someone the whole time. I think we're true Beast comes in as when it's like you say between 2 a.m. and 4 a.m. and you're so low

[01:23:22] Jeff: and you're right on. Yeah. And and what happens I find I'm in this might be off this, but your world gets smaller. Your field of view is smaller. You kind of can only see where your headlamp is, but you'll also tend to watch your feet a lot more. So it's head down, you can get into your head a little bit more. You're not, sort of, you know, whereas during the day, especially if you beautiful place you're looking at the views here, you know, you're looking around and so everything just Narrows and it's okay, if you're with somebody else at least you have that conversation but you can really get into your head otherwise at night when you're alone.

[01:23:55] Tayson: yeah, I can definitely see that and I think it would also be it'd be less fun to do that section that we were doing right there solo at like 4 a.m. just because The woods are closing in on you a little bit too, and there was Wildlife, there was cattle, there was elk. And so you're here and bumps, you're here. You're seeing eyes in the distance at times. And that's right. Let's see that getting like getting to you, you know, when you're that sleep deprived that exhausted, you know,

[01:24:20] Jeff: oh, you're listening, you're hallucinating at that point as well. Like I was, I don't know if I was verbalizing much, but I was definitely seeing

[01:24:28] Tayson: Yeah. I will I do remember this both of us said by the end of it, that Aaron had like a lap belt. That was a waste felt. Yeah, a waste a lighted. I can't even talk like a lighted waist belt, right? So he had.

[01:24:45] Jeff: Yeah,

[01:24:46] Tayson: get a headlamp and one of those and especially where when we were trying to weigh find the thing about when you have one headlamp on your head, is wherever you're looking is what you're seeing. And so if I was trying to see if the trail is going this way, but I'm still moving this way. I have no idea what I'm stepping on and that created some some Havoc at times, too versus being able to use your peripherals to kind of see what's going on over here and so that's I think both of us were like, man, that that headlamp system you know, the two parties system, there is definitely something that I will. I will be trying if you know. Yeah, it was it was pretty impressive

[01:25:20] Jeff: and to be clear, I think you need both, you can't just have the waist light because then if you look to the side, your light doesn't follow. That's the key. Is that both correct? Yeah, absolutely.

[01:25:30] Tayson: Um, so yeah, I think it was It was kind of this Bittersweet moment where I'm super excited to get into the the Aid Station. But I know this is the end of where I'm at, but it was like, holy crap, like that was so wild to, you know, run these miles going from, you know, picking you up, say, around 8th position to slowly watching, you just, you know, work through the field. And, and the thing was, too that we didn't even mention is behind us. When we were in fourth position behind us, fifth and sixth, those guys were hours behind us. So we had nothing behind us. Pushing us until we did make that pass. So just one other thing to note but so we roll into the Aid Station now. And there's just Jesse in front of us and he's there in a chair coughing. His lungs out wrapped up. I mean I, it was, it was, I thought he was dying, you know, he did not look good, he's just hacking, he's got a speed off, they're looking at a speed. You know, while you roll right into the Rossmönster into this Taj Mahal and get taken care of. And basically at this point I know I'm tagging out so what can I still do? And so then I just kind of started to wander around the main station and gather Intel and then was just gonna let you know when Jesse left so that that was that was kind of no knowledge, but Essentially this point, we're at Mile 200, you've got 40 more miles to go and you know, in my mind you've you're gonna win this thing. Based off of what we've heard about, Jesse is foot problems seeing them? They're coughing. You know, it's like, holy crap. This is, this is such a wild experience. And and so, yeah, I mean, I don't know, I don't know if there is much else to cover here. I mean, for the most part, you're just hitting your marks. There was no new issues, no new issues to really talk about.

[01:27:20] Jeff: I was right? So, I had this, I had this goal for roughly 72 hours, was my kind of my a goal, and I was kind of right on that pace and I had scheduled to third now and that's when I was gonna have it, there was Geyser Pass, with 40 miles left, I wanted to set myself up for success, and he might think well, 40 miles and come on, just finish it. Well, not 40 miles. We still had a big client, that was ours now ours, right? So, I definitely want to finish strong. And so, I went down for for a nap and we made I made, or we as a group, I guess made two tactical errors in the states station. Just see I've listened to a couple podcasts that he's done since the race and this was when I came into his orbit for the first time. So I came in and Jeff Browning, an elite Runner, that lots of people who've heard of Is Buddy and he was there crewing for him. He wasn't his crew the entire time, but a couple of eight stations. He, he really helped Jesse out and that was one of the times. He let him sleep in the back of his truck and he got him some food. He was kind of taking care of them, their informally and he said, listen man, Jeff just came in and I just overheard him say he's gonna sleep for 45 minutes or overheard his career talking. So you better get out of here and he said well, we need Jeff, you mean Taylor? He said no no Taylor's outlets in second. He's right on your heels and he's looking good. So that was when I first came in a Jesse's orbit and unfortunately, I think we gave up the plan a little bit, right? So Jeff overheard it. Jeff related that information to Jesse and then Jesse was sure to get out of there, I think, in 15 or 20 minutes, I think he slept for, like, 10 minutes. He got the hell out of there. So that was the first mistake we made. Second mistake was I slept for about 45 minutes and I remember waking up and telling Audrey, I think I need another 10 minutes. And that was just me being lazy because I didn't actually end up falling back asleep and that extra 10 minutes as it would turn out. I've been saving rights. So so I did get out of there though. On schedule. I think I spent about just over an hour, you know. Not not too bad. We spent about 10 minutes. I did my usual. I think I did my last foot bath there. That's something we didn't really talk about was the reason for that. I washed my feet, I think it was three maybe even four times. Roughly every 50 to 60 miles. And that was the plan. I had going in. We bought this little little bucket thing to wash my feet in. We had soap and Audrey would always have warm soapy water. I've never done this in a race before but I actually picked this up from Jeff. Browning what? I just mentioned from watching his documentary from the Moab 240 and he was doing this to cause he was having some foot issues. He was getting rashes and stuff so he sort of washing his feet. And the reason I decided to do this, do this as well is because the sand and Moab. It's not like It's fine sand. It's really fine sand. It's not like Sandy on the beach. And it gets everywhere and it gets in your shoes if you're wearing Gators, it doesn't matter. It gets in your socks. So just taking my shoes off washing my feet so I could reset, I'd reread my toes. But with clean feet, putting new socks on you know, dump my shoes out as well as I could and put them back on doing that every 50 to 60 miles. I didn't have a single blister. My feet were in perfect shape, Yeah, I cannot say that for a lot of the other runners in this race. So there was some, there was some destruction because again, it's that sand, you know, it's that sand mixed with sweat, mixed with 440 miles a pounding, it can just destroy your feet. So that was something where I probably spent an extra I spent a lot of time because I would do it while I was eating and Audrey kind of washed my feet for me. Fortunately, but it probably a couple extra minutes. Times four like that was probably 10 minutes but I could have saved my entire race or at least saved tons of time dealing with blisters potentially. So, that's, that's an example of time that I see as an investment. That could have saved me a lot of time, elsewhere in the race.

[Editor’s note: The repeated foot washing, sock changes, lubrication, and blister outcome were Jeff’s historical choices and experience. They do not guarantee blister prevention or replace appropriate foot care or medical attention.]

[01:31:07] Tayson: So, a couple of things I'll add to the seed station. First off. So, I kind of just took myself on this Mission. I just zipped up some some down puffy pants, and down jacket, and I just started wandering around the camp because I was on recon, right? I wanted to know when Aaron came in. I wanted to know where Jesse was at, so I'm trying to listen in and so, you know, Jesse gets up, he leaves, I go kind of knock on the trailer door, let it Audrey know that he's left and, you know, we're kind of watching the time between that and I also watched him, right? He was coughing, I mean he was experiencing some like pulmonary edema and then you know wasn't sure about the feed issue or not.

[Editor’s note: Tayson’s pulmonary-edema wording was an observation made at the aid station, not a verified diagnosis. Coughing or breathing difficulty can have multiple causes and warrants appropriate medical evaluation rather than diagnosis from appearance alone.]

[01:31:46] Tayson: But it was like, well, he's this far like he's obviously gonna finish and then I watch, Erin, come in and Aaron. We had put some serious time on there, I would say 20 to 25 minutes. And when he came in, he said, oh I did, you know, I did get lost cost. Me 10, 15 minutes and one one spot, specifically. But we also like, when we passed him, both of us were like we put down like a hard Mile and we never, we never saw his headlamp again. It was like he was gone as soon as we passed him. And so, yeah, I would say 25 minutes or more right there that we put on him. And so then it became really like Hey we're not racing away from Aaron. We're racing to Jesse. So I'm walking around though and Time goes by. This is probably where it would be worth while like really going back and looking at your your watch because Yeah, from my perspective and again I just met you like the day before in person. I don't know. You, you know, everyone else knows you so much more than me and so I'm over here like one, I'm kicking myself saying, man, if I could run another 40 miles and I like I kick him out of bed right now and I'll just keep him awake. You know what I mean? I'll just keep him awake. You know, that wasn't the situation. It's like, all right, we gotta let him sleep. But yeah, that 45 ish minutes, you know, came by and I remember, you know, basically going over and I remember fader's coming out right, I knocked on the door or something and was like, it's time like it's it's, it's time and she's like, no, no, we're gonna let him sleep just a little bit more. And I don't know what the total time was, but I want to say that it was a little bit more than you think. And, and I kick myself because it was like, in my mind, it was like, I felt very strongly like At that at that first let you know 45 minutes, get you out the door. And and that would have been it, right? But it's like I don't I'm I'm not the guy to be able to say that and I kind of had some like yeah, just had to kind of sit back and let it happen but it was

[01:33:49] Jeff: still like, you gotta think again that 40 or that? Yeah, 40 miles or so, I don't know what would that have been like, you know, in my mind I'm thinking it's another eight hours of running here still. So yeah, you know, 10 15 minutes. I mean that it's nothing over the course of eight hours. Usually, and this is the thing that you usually, well, you have the benefit of hindsight, right. Which is exactly normally. Normally these races you're talking, like, a couple hours between each person. Like it's not, you know, it's it's about patience. And it was, this race was about patience, right? Up until this point. What I learned from this race is that sometimes you need to change, you can come in with the plan. I had a plan ABC. I had my sleep plan. I had my new Christian plan, I had my patient chart, but I didn't have a plan D. For if first place is literally at the same age stations me, the last eight station. What would I do differently? Would I go? Hey guys, plan D, pull out the you know like crack crack in case of an emergency and open up the guidebook here. Because Plan B says we only sleep 20 minutes and we and we we push ourselves. We take an extra shot of espresso. We hit the road, right? Hmm I've learned that mistake now or an actions in the stake I've learned that lesson. I've learned from that experience and if ever I'm an experience like that again, I will try to think on my feet as well. My crew chief as well. Audrey because she was doing was exactly what I told her it's like don't let me not sleep was what I had told her because I would need it. It's an investment and having said that had a cut my naps, say to 20 minutes, who knows what could happen, right?

[01:35:25] Tayson: Yeah. He's on hindsight. We didn't all night sight, and, and Audrey executed exactly what she was supposed to what she was, you know, for her experience and what she's been told to do and the charts and everything. Like, you know, she ran this and we kept it in schedule. and we get out of there and I do want you to go back and look at the total start time because in my head I know you said an hour. But in my head from the time we rolled into the time you rolled out, it was two hours. There was like an hour of sleeping at least and then I think we just lost some time there but they'd be interesting to go back and look, but but anyways, you're all out in all of us are like You know, we're like he's for sure gonna catch him. Maybe right? Like is like like we were so confident because you were, you were looking so much better. You didn't have any major issues, you weren't coughing your lungs out. You didn't have a foot issue and you're a strong finisher and so, you know, Audrey's like he's he's gonna do it like she has like full confidence and and yeah, it was just one of those like really interesting. send out for its like, We won't see. We won't even we don't, we will not get a chance to see you in 40 miles and tell it is the race finish. We'll have, you know, we'll update the phone's tracker a little bit but You know, it's it's just it's it's it's nerve wracking and it's exciting at the same time but we send you out there and they're still as a lot of racing left, right? You have some climbs in the cold. When you left, they woke, they woke Aaron up right after you left, but he just had not gotten enough. I mean, he'd only been down 10-15 minutes, maybe, but they were, yeah. But

[01:37:11] Jeff: Where, you know, maybe he rushed his break, his his sleep, because he's now trying to keep up to me and question, is to that hurt his face in the end.

[01:37:21] Tayson: Yeah, yeah because then he rolls out of the eight station so we're kind of there still picking up camp and getting ready to leave after you left, and so he was only 10, 15 minutes behind you even though he had rolled into Camp more, like 30 minutes behind and he didn't have a vehicle. So he's, he's sitting next to a fire pit, you know, he's sleeping on the cot and just doesn't quite have the same. Efficiency down, right? So so it's stations have typically, been taking him longer. Plus, he rolls in 25-30 minutes behind you, but then he tries to roll out 10 minutes after you and But yeah, I mean all three of you guys are out. Now, at this point, I'm feeling good that you're that Aaron's not the threat. But it is this question of we got, we got like 40 minutes behind, Jesse like, we gotta catch 40 minutes on him, right? And essentially, that's how the night ends for us, like we drive off the mountain, I go get back to my truck, you know, struggling to get great service and stuff sleep for a little bit, wake up the next morning and and that's my side of the story, right? We go to the finish line that to see what's transpiring from your side though. Like you say, you're this is the part where you have this this rough climbing, your your headlamp a little bit from people behind you and in front of you because the field is now that tight that you guys are able to see each other at this point. And and then you have that long road where you're literally falling asleep and almost tumbling off of the road. I mean, this is just The most brutal part of this thing, right? Like, Usually you get to this point and you're settled in, right? But in this situation, instead of settling into this 200, Miler, you're you're progressively ramping it up.

[01:39:01] Jeff: Get, what was the chances on? So I left Geyser Pass with, you know, 40 miles left with 1/8 station in the middle at 220, but it was a non-crew accessibility station but I had been there before we camped right beside where that eight station was and I knew the course from there to the Finish. I pre-run it. I didn't know that next section though, but I knew all I had to do was get there. And once I got there, I was home, free because it was all downhill, and it was very technical, but it would be daylight, hopefully, or probably. And I just so I thought of this, I have two 20 myall Lakes, the next section. Is the non the last 20? I got in the bag. That next funny though was definitely the hardest in the race physically and mentally. Mostly because I was so tired. That's exactly the way I described earlier. I'm falling asleep on my feet. I am asleep. I'm losing minutes. At wake up and not in the ditch. But as I'm about to fall in the ditch, I see turns out was Denise exact. Same thing, back and forth on the road. He's Headlamp for me. I'm hiding my headlamp from Aaron because I could see him. What looked like just behind. The it turns out he was miles behind me, way up the road, but in middle of the night and he's open areas, it feels like you're you could be within, you know, a matter of half mile. had no sense of where Jesse was, I'm looking at the tracker, but the you know, we're losing service and, you know, comes in and out and The Trackers are on this delay where it sort of updates, every five to ten minutes, and I'm losing the flags here and there as well. And you know, this is frustrating me and we're mostly they'll running on these gravel roads. There was a little bit of force section first and single track, but it went pretty quickly. And in fact that was the most enjoyable, it was the most engaging on single track. It was those roads in the middle of the night. My world was so small. All I'm seeing is the gravel in front of me. Almost like eventually. Yeah. And eventually, I, I thought I started seeing drones and I thought this was. Now I had a film. I had a film crew, I had I had Derek there filming me throughout the race and I thought he was out there with his drone. And then I saw more than one drone. I'm like what the hell did he get so many drones? So I'm seeing these drones flying around me and you know I'm hallucinating like crazy. Finally, I approached where I thought that 8 station was going to come up and and the sun was kind of starting to come up a little bit. And I knew I was kind of on this home stretch, so it was just forcing myself to run on this gradual uphill grade dislike just just runnable enough that, you know, you should be running it. So, physically, I'm just trying to muster a bit of strength. And this is where, if I had a Pacer, I could have had somebody go on? Come on, man. You got this. Let's run this. and instead, I didn't, but It was a fair fight, it turns out because neither did Jesse. He had he'd had a Pacer, I think heading into you guys are and then he too dropped his Pacer and was running that solo. So he was in the same boat. So it was a fair fight, same thing. He was struggling like I know I should be running this. Like come on, come on, talk himself. Come on Jessie and I was in the same thing. Like come on Jeffy. Got this one more aid station. Finally, that a station came into View kind of right as the sun was coming up. Hold in there. I said, how far is Jesse. They said I couldn't be more than a mile ahead and I thought, okay. And again, this was me being a little too conservative I said, Okay, I want to set myself up for success success. Let's fill up my blacker up, my bottles, let me get some food, let me make sure I'm ready for the decisive. And I spent a few minutes there, probably five minutes. that leg when I had run it before because I had run that final 20 miles, mostly downhill very technical, the most technical part of the course, probably It is and it's undulating. It's not all downhill. It's it's challenging but it took me a few hours to run that in my training and I did in the middle of the day. It was hot and I ran out of water with like two and a half liters of water. I didn't want that to happen again, I am actually meeting halfway through and just dying, you know, like running out of water. So I was trying to prepare for that. I didn't when I forgot was the fact that it was 6:30 in the morning and, you know, it wasn't going to take me whatever it took last time like hours and hours. And it was much cooler and it was a different. We were racing. It wasn't just a training around. So I was going much quicker and right around, then that's when I also got self-service, I was able to pull up my tracker, hit refresh. There he is. Half a mile ahead of me, maybe. So I left at 8 station, I said, give me that to go. I took my pancakes with it in a bag with maple syrup to go and trying to eat it as I run. I'm looking at his tracker and I'm kind of biting my time because I was running but I didn't want to quite drop the hammer yet. We still had 20 miles left of technical terrain, so maybe we're 18 miles now. 15 miles and hit refresh. Feel like I should be getting closer thinking. Like they told me, you guys all told me his feet were destroyed. He didn't sound good. I should be, I should be moving faster. How was he running fast on this technical terrain, right? This Rocky Terrain. It refresh and I kind of know. I remember the route. I remember you kind of go and then it turns, right? And I'm thinking, I should see him right ahead. And it looks like he's right there on the tracker. But again, we're jumping around in the tracker a little bit, so this Is frustrating. I'm now starting to later on later on thicker on picking up the pace. And I'm hitting refresh. I got the tracker and why hand. And it turns out he was doing the exact same thing. He's right ahead of me hitting Refresh on the tracker, trying to get a pinch and zoom and you gotta, you know, trying to run looking at the tracker looking behind him for both playing this game. And this continued for that next like 10 miles all the way down the rim, we had the technical single track again. Where the hell I can't, I see him right in front of me, but it turns out a half mile is actually pretty long distance, like visually. So he was always just throwing that. There's the delay

[01:44:40] Tayson: from the delays to and yeah, it's red and then it gets back to you. There was a delay,

[01:44:44] Jeff: but This. is like, I'm Loving this though I got a smile on my face. I'm like you know what Aaron's way behind me he's I dropped him long ago, Jessie's right in front of me second place is in the bag. I'm at 210 mi into a 200 sorry 230 mi into a 240 mile or the race is basically over. This is just fun. Now this is just a game. So whatever happened I was going to be happy with so I was I had a smile on my face that whole time. And I start picking up the pace again. I know this route, it's technical, it's fun! The Sun's Up. Now, there's people on the trail. There's another guy out there with the camera. He's like, oh man, he's ready. And then I bite it so hard. I'm just trying to Sprint and getting all this around it and I tripped and I just slammed into a rock like shoulder first, cut my shoulder up ripped my shirt and I got it, knocked the wind out of me and I got up and I'm like, oh my God, like is my race over like did I literally just crash and burn like 10 miles from the Finish? But brushed myself off. I was okay. kept going, you know, kind of lost them in order to though and got going again. Finally got back up to speed. approaching the roads were sort of towards the end of the single track and there is Jesse There's a band there. The trail takes this Bend kind of into this Canyon and it's it's maybe I don't know, quarter mile but it is sort of like you have to kind of scramble of a rocks and then climb down. Like you're not really running and it slows you down a bit kind of ruins your stride. But at one point where the trail Loops you're like meters away from the other side like you could almost you know it's like 10 meters away maybe and I see them right there and I go Jesse point at him. I don't know why. First of all, I think it was awesome more of a question like Jesse because I didn't even know what he looked like. I had never seen him before, right? He turns to me and he right away. He knows there's Jeff. So he just Takes off keeps going. I realized my mistake. I shouldn't have said anything. I should have snuck up on him.

[01:46:40] Tayson: Did he?

[01:46:41] Jeff: Like, you know, I don't think he said anything. He just gonna love him. Yeah. And it was still a couple minutes behind him at this point because I had to go around the bend myself but I also kind of wanted him to know, like I'm right here, like this is his race to lose. I mean, he had been at first place, I didn't want to speak up on him, right? So I wanted him to have every chance he could have to outrun me. And there's like, sort of one last kind of downhill and you are on the road and then there's a final. I think it was about four miles of pavement. Maybe even more. I can't remember now heading into into Moab it's flat. It runs along the river. I'd run it before. I could picture every meter of that. I'd rather than a couple times actually in training. I really love to have built a visualize, the Finish, those final miles. So we hit the Finish there. Derek is in his truck right there and I yell at them. I see his truck. And apparently he had just been notified, somebody texted him and said, hey man, like this is a pretty exciting. Hey, like just coming by you right now and he thought he had like hours till the kill. So he apparently had like a skillet of eggs. He's cooking up, he threw it in the sink. He quickly got his drone up in the air, he's got Drone footage of me. Chasing Jesse Jesse's about a half mile up the road here. And I'm just giving it everything I can. I can Of course, so is Jesse, he's Running Scared at one point but he deadly Yang caught up to me and he's kind of biking are he was running, I think he he's like, yeah, you know, Jesse's like you only have about a mile left now and Jesse's like a good probably quarter mile to a half mile how to use. So, like, at that point, I'm not gonna chase him down. So I slowed down a little bit but I was still running it in and enjoying myself. Jeff Browning ran out to meet, Jesse ran him and there's some great footage of him like turning me and you know, it's like, where is he? Where is? He just like, don't worry man, you got this. You got this. Um it turns out everybody was tracking us. All of my friends back home people from the community people at the Finish Line. 200 miles generally, don't end this way, we crashed the website, the tracking website went down from so many people hitting refresh and I guess because of that delay, it looked like we were jumping in front of each other because we were so close and because of that delay in the tracker. So it was a great finish. It was so much fun for me Jesse. I don't know if he was having fun but definitely he had all himself in the end and I think I think it was probably one of the more exciting 200 miles. You're probably gonna see for a while, they generally don't end this way.

[01:49:06] Tayson: Oh 100%. I mean it was crazy. Exciting, the buzz at the Finish Line. Everyone's so excited. No one knows who's gonna come in because of the Delayed by the end, the delay. There is some jumping around because maybe yours and his dozen and then vice versa and super, super exciting. And then yeah, I mean, for my perspective we see we see Jesse come around the corner and it's like, At first, it's like it's Jeff right behind him. Write his like, are we gonna see a Sprint finish like that? And I would have been fun. That would Have been Jeff. Browning is like just looking over his shoulder every time I mean every like 10 steps he's looking back for Jesse saying hey you're good, I don't see him, I don't see him I don't I can literally hear him saying this still like now you're good. He's not behind you. I can't see him, he's not there, you know? And and Jesse is coming in. and I mean, he looks like he has left every single ounce of everything he has on this course, And I'll always remember, you know you drop down you come to into the finish line and I kind of looped through and he comes across the Finish Line just panting. So tired, exhausted looking. He puts his hands on his knees and he's just He just looks up. And he says why? Why did he do that? And everyone just starts laughing, because to him, you know, he was winning this race. Like why did why did you like come in here and try to win? You know, which everyone laughs? Because like, of course, he's gonna try to win, but to Jesse, it was just like, you know, you made him have to dig to an entirely different level that he did not want to go to, but, you know, he did it. I mean, props to him,

[01:50:49] Jeff: Yes, I finished five and a half minutes behind, I did kind of pull back a little bit of fears and but five and a half minutes on a and I finished just under 71 hours. So I beat my own time go by an hour and couldn't be happier with that. And I also just want to say, Jesse is a phenomenal athlete. He's actually 50. I'm 42. So I hate to say it for his age, but he's had some really amazing performances. If you look at his UltraSignup, UltraSignup.com, which is where we we track stats and it's where you do race registration and things. He's had a bunch of first place. Finishes a ton of podiums over the years. This is to lose and he had a much more aggressive time goal in mind. Originally now, they did extend the course this year. It had actually because of course, changes of the years, I believe until recently it was only about 220 miles it when it was actually measured out. So they extended it by a good 18 miles to make it closer to 240. So they the estimated that that added a good six to eight hours on the finishing time, which is I think partly why Jesse's time. It was much longer than he originally anticipated. That he came into this race to Win It. I didn't, I came to this race hoping for a Podium, but I was gonna be happy with top five and so this was definitely his to lose and so I'm happy to have been able to push him. I, you know again we're talking about minutes and could I save time, but there's nothing to say that Jesse couldn't have dug that much deeper and found 105 times himself.

[01:52:15] Tayson: Yeah. Absolutely. It was it was such a tremendous effort to watch both of you guys come in minutes from each other. Having never seen each other. On the course, mind you, right? Like you guys met each other at the finish line for like the first time. And and just I mean it was it was incredible to watch, you know, tears for shed people were over the mood about the excitement of the race. You know, typically just you know you get that first place personal in and hours, go by sometimes before the hours and hours. And and Aaron was three hours behind me in third, so that kind of

[01:52:52] Jeff: gives you that perspective. And I think Roman was two hours behind him and fifth. So, that's generally how these things go. There's a couple hours between each. So when it comes down and then it's, that's, that's definitely different. I would say again. I mean, again, Jesse's an amazing app athlete, but he was having some challenges that day he almost dropped. If I had an extra 10 miles because I was pretty good at that point and I, that's tells me I could have probably been a little more aggressive, but if this was the Cocodona 250. And so, I'm up to 40, I think.

[01:53:24] Tayson: It kills me because I had, you know, I, I did not come there to do it, but I I also feel like yeah, if I could have ran that last 40 miles with you, right? Which is that's the crazy part about this race man to go 40 miles without seeing your crew, 50 miles that Senior Crew, you know, because if there would have been another cruel spot, I could have just hopped in for 20 miles or 15 miles or exactly. Exactly. And we were moving pretty

[01:53:48] Jeff: quick at the end there. And I had that benefit of just a drama. And so I think I, you know, it would have been a

[01:53:54] Tayson: calculation, we would have had to have made as so, I would have wanted to just run the night with you just stick. That would be great. That's 20. Miles is amazing. You guys did put down some heater laps. I don't know what they were exactly. But I mean you guys were killing it but it's one of those races where we can say here and be like you were so close to first or we can be like dude you crushed your planning goal? You took second which was absolutely, you know, would have been the highest you could have ever. I from my talking with you, it's the highest you would have ever Dreamed. You would have, you know how to possibility at in this. And and the cool thing is, you know, you're you're still hungry, you're not injured, you're not, you know what I mean? Like in. This is what you love to do and we're gonna see you back out there. To learn and build, right? And so what, what an amazing experience I feel very blessed to have been able to just be a fly on the wall for a lot of this and have that that first seat position to, you know, it's just it's it's so hard to describe. It's it's it's it's you know, you're not watching. I think I said this on my Instagram, you're not watching. NASCAR, you know, race passes and whatever. But it's like, no, but it's like, it was just as exciting. It was. So it was so exciting to watch as exciting to, you know, to watch him move into the top 10 and then the top five and the top three and then in the right there in the second position and be within striking, and I mean, like you say for 240 mile race, they just don't get closer than that. And so many people kept saying out of the Finish Line. If never seen a 200 mile race like this and that tight, and that, that exciting and man just How do you so it's been a few months now. How do you feel about the whole experience? And, you know, any any last you know, in caps to this

[01:55:47] Jeff: Yeah, so it's been two months. I took it pretty easy for. I mean, I barely moved the first few days, I hung out of the race to finish, you know, took a couple of days for every day to actually finish. And and then we flew home, I took a few weeks pretty easy. I think I took a good two weeks from like I didn't do anything for two weeks and I slowly started running again and I'm keeping my mileage, pretty low. I like to recover hard, I like to get my body a chance to, you know, kind of heal itself. And also my mind I like to take time off from structured training, this was a lot of work. So Moab, you know, the result aside, it wasn't like, forget about second place. I mean, you can't control who else shows up on the day. But my, so I focus more on the time. I finished in just under 71 hours, and I plan on running 72 now wasn't a coincidence. That wasn't an accident. That was, that was a I see this thing a well-executed plan. That's only two hour that's 71 hours could be easily put me in 10th place. If a bunch of other faster for people it's showing up on the day. So again, it's more about that execution. I think I had a good plan. I stuck to it and I executed that but that was all built on a foundation of like a lot of training. You know, you don't, you can't just show up and, and hope for the best on the day. It really is like, you know, I put a lot of work in this year and I think that's the the thing I want people to take from this is It's about the process more than the day of the than the race. I think that's the same here. If you're doing a lot of Big Adventures as well, you've got to build up to it. It's about the years of experience and learning that goes into executing a big fkt, or even just a through hike, you know, just having your gear dialed in your nutrition dialed and it's about the process. The results come and go. And, you know, I could have easily. the fall could have taken me out 10 miles from the finish and I still would have seen it as being a rewarding experience because the process You know, was so was so rewarding and that's where you learn, you learn from the process as well. So I think that's the biggest thing. I think, you know, focus on those fundamentals, focus on, but care nutrition. Pacing hydration, you know, all these kind of things, get your gear dialed in and the rest will kind of follow

[01:57:58] Tayson: think it's very well said you're someone who who trains hard year round. You're I mean you're taking a few months off but you're still you're it's all calculated and it's Really is. I mean, this was an amazing year to watch. You know, the events that you did the races, you did the, the trips, you know what I mean? That you did, you know, living in Europe, all of these different things. It was such a process and it's always great when you're able to get to the end of that without injury without, yeah, you know, ailments and issues and like you said, in ultra running, So much of it is, you're racing yourself, right? That's why there's so much camaraderie out there, right? Everyone's hearing for each other out. There is really, it's your racing yourself, you know, until you're not for half a second and then it's back to reading yourself like, yes, you know, but I will just say this being being able to come and watch that and learn and share miles with you, definitely was inspiring. I think people are going to be incredibly inspired by your documentary when you put this together, definitely looking forward to that. And for me, I think the biggest thing that I took away from it was this belief That. Yeah. Like I I can go more miles than I even thought I could write. And so I'm pretty. I'm not yet done this but my plan. I've got some personal things to work out, and figure out how I'm going to train for this and make time for it, but I really would like to try 100 Miler. Now after after going and watching you do that, it just made me gave me the confidence. That if I signed up for the right-handed Miler maybe one. That's not super heat, exhaust. And and if I hit it at the prayer, the pace that I can do that, that would be something that that's possible. And I hope other people when they watch this kind of get that same same concept of just being inspired, whether that be to go after their own goal race. Whatever it is. I think anything can happen out there and and And yeah, it's just, it was really, really cool and really inspiring to watch that process unfold in is as close to first person as I could. I could hope to be so yeah. I appreciate you inviting me out and let me, you know, share that with you.

[02:00:20] Jeff: Well can end on without you. So I definitely your help and if it works out timing lies. I look forward to retain the favor and Creation. Your first 100. That would be so much fun and hopefully get you to a solid finish as well.

[02:00:33] Tayson: Yeah I hope I need to sit down on UltraSignup or something and just look at all the options. Come come January one. You know what's your supposed to do on January 1st?

[02:00:45] Jeff: When you yeah, right, yeah, I would say for, you know, other people, too. It's not, there's no rush to run these long distance is it's for some people. 50k 100K is a huge distance. It might be the longest you ever go but it's a process to get 200 Mi to 200 Mi of specialty, you know. So so I think just, you know, getting as many reps as you can do as many EK races, as many 100K races, do a few hundred miles and eventually you will be in a place where you're the next logical. Step is to run 200 miles. Out, you'll know when you're ready.

[02:01:22] Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's so interesting to just watch year over year progressed and year of your experience as well. Now I've been, you know, you you were the one who initially inspired me to start running and now, you know, I've been running for two and a half, almost three years. And and to even see that progress over years is really interesting. And part of that progress is just learning about yourself and and so yeah, I mean I would Echo that like there was a time when running you know, 50 miles was outrageous to me and that wasn't that long ago and 100 miles was something I would never have done, like, I honestly, even after, you know, running like my first Ultra That was, you know, 45 miles or you know when I thought of 100 miles, I was like, that's just that's not in it for me like I'll never yeah. You know what I mean? And so yeah, like just Give yourself time, give yourself repetitions, I definitely need more time. I definitely need more repetitions but I might just be stupid enough to to go for what I have done to 100 Meyler. Hopefully, you know, I've got enough experience along the way too and we'll build more of that in and training, but yeah, whatever it is set your goals. Everyone's goals are different, but Piece by piece. If you've proven you can get there. So

[02:02:36] Jeff: yeah, don't don't rush it but also never say never. I've learned that lesson, right? Never say never just give it time. No.

[02:02:44] Tayson: I mean, how crazy is it? That? You know, Jesse at 50, whatever he is still out there doing this stuff, right? Like that's a whole different perception on life to look at people and ultra running that are in their 60s and I think West actually that West ended up winning. What is that? Like we're it's like the three or four 200 mile races. And they take the kids Triple Crown. Yeah, yeah I ended up winning it. He was. I mean oh and I don't know how old he is but I would guess he's he's into his 50s or so and like it's it's really cool to see that because I think I grew up with that perception of that that's even a possibility it you know she get older and and really I think what's so cool about today's You know, understanding of health and in supplements and whatever it is right. That Man, I plan on being able to do my hobbies. I'm well, past where I thought I could have, you know, grown up. And that's it's, it's, it's a cool thing. So, whatever age wherever you're at in life, you know, go set yourself that next goal and and don't write it off. It's, it's totally possible. So, Well, I just looked at the clock. And I have killed some of your time today, Jeff, but I've been excited to talk through this and relive this and man that time went fast for me. At least, just just walking back through that race. So much fun. I'm glad we were able to document this Via podcast. And I mean what a, what a good time and just really, really appreciate you coming back on here to talk as well.

[Editor’s note: The recovery timeline, age, health, supplement, training, and future-race comments above are personal and historical. They are not medical guidance or a promise that a particular distance or activity is safe for another person.]

[02:04:27] Tayson: Now that was, that was fun to read it and of course, as you mentioned, there is a film in the works.

[02:04:32] Jeff: Probably at this point won't be published until March. We're actually looking at doing a probably a theatrical screening here in Vancouver, first at an events. So did a bit of a community events and that's gonna be a good. I mean this conversation took two hours but that's gonna be a good 90 minutes. I'm sure as well. Yeah, so I've got 11 hours of raw footage that we're working through right now. So be a good feature links film and it'll cover the entire process and you're going to see the crewing, the pacing the You know that then all the nuts and bolts that go into a 200 mile race.

[02:05:02] Tayson: Yeah. Jeff, you're also well known for fastpacking. I think at this point, we'll have to the table. Some fastpacking conversations for later. But did you have any films? Come out this year or upcoming films related to fastpacking as well to call out?

[02:05:16] Jeff: Yeah. So I have another one that again will probably won't be ready until shortly after the Moab film so in the spring but we did a couple of fastpacking Adventures. This summer one in particular in Triglav National Park in Slovenia which was it's incredible. It's one of our favorite places. We've been slovenia's Julian Alps and there's an amazing Hut system there. So we did a four night or a four-day rather free night. Should I forget how many nights it was? That we did a multi-day fast back. Anyway, through Triglav National Park. I used the Skyline 30-liter pack from Outdoor Vitals and that's something we'll talk about in the film as well. So they'll be a probably a good 60 Minute film. It's gonna show us climbing, triglav. Now triglav, the highest mountain in the country, it's gonna show us, go into the Hutts and on some very technical terrain via ferrata routes Is my partner, Audrey, and I, we had a great time. So that film's coming as well.

[02:06:11] Tayson: Awesome. Well if you're not yet subscribed to Jeff's YouTube channel, make sure you go get subscribed. There's some awesome films coming up and not something you want to be missing out on. So, okay. Well, I think I can let you go here again. Appreciate the time. Appreciate the invite to come out there and and watch and help out. And Yeah, if I go do something stupid, like 100 miles or you're to blame. So,

[02:06:37] Jeff: That will help me. And thanks, Tayson. That was fun.

[02:06:40] Tayson: Yeah, thank you. All right, I hope you guys enjoyed that interview as much as I did. We completely lost track of time because we got so lost in those stories, but I hope you guys just enjoyed hearing those stories and, you know, all those all those subplots and little nuances of this race that that eventually unfolded into him taking second by just a couple of minutes in a 7172 hour. Race. Absolutely phenomenal. So fun to watch the entire ultra running community, and world was paying attention to this race because of how closed it was. And again, that was manifest in the website, coming down, not even functioning at the end of this race and people being, you know, completely confused, who won the race and man just just A lot, a lot of fun but hope you guys really enjoyed the stories there. And Appreciate Jeff coming on. We will bring Jeff back on and talk about some fast packing and some trips that he has done this last year when he debuted some documentaries. So look forward to that, Jeff as a wealth of knowledge around fastpacking in a Pioneer in the sport as well. So always look up to him for that. But thank you guys for tuning in, make sure you are subscribed, please rate the podcast if you've not yet done, so share it with friends, helps us in our mission, to get more people outside to improve their mental. Physical emotional health in a time where that's very much needed. So thank you guys for tuning in and we'll catch you guys on a future podcast.

[Editor’s note: The documentary schedules, event screening, fastpacking films, channel invitation, future 100-mile plans, and promise to bring Jeff back were recorded before the January 2024 release. They are historical statements, not current availability, schedules, or event commitments.]