[00:00:00] Tayson: Everybody welcome back to the Live Ultralight Podcast, powered by Outdoor Vitals today, we are going to be talking about a brand new product release. Has come out here at outdoor vitals. So this is a product that I am exceptionally excited for. I don't know what the response is going to be, but I can tell you this, my estimation is that people maybe aren't going to be thinking. This is the product they were needing but it is the product they were needing. That's like how I feel about it. That's how it was for me, at least. So I am stoked to release this product and just talk through all the details. All the stories about what it took to get this product to where it's at and to ultimately being ready to ship to you guys. So Today. I'm going to talk about the Skyline Trail Joggers. So yeah. How are you doing today? Brigham.
[00:00:53] Brigham: Doing well. Beautiful. Beautiful late spring day? Yeah. Great day. Talk about. Gear.
[00:01:02] Tayson: Yeah, I think the the change in temperatures definitely has I mean, it's been changing all through spring, but like, it feels like full summer mode now. And so I'm definitely starting to feel like it's time to go to the top of the mountain. Camping. And Get to higher elevations and just yeah, go see some of the country. We haven't been able to get into very efficiently or effectively for a lot of months away for some some more snow to melt but we're getting a lot of roads up there still closed.
[00:01:29] Brigham: Yeah. Getting getting close.
[00:01:32] Tayson: I said, it made me feel like that [summer was] already here. I
[00:01:35] Brigham: mean, definitely feels like that. Definitely feels like that.
[00:01:37] Tayson: I started thinking about some fishing and some hiking areas it's like, yeah that to me feels. Summer, esk, and yeah. So, yeah, it's it's it's in the air and I'm definitely excited for it. But yeah, today we've got a product that's been in the works for over a year. spent a lot of time and a lot of miles in these joggers and to be honest, when like, For my side of the equation. Yeah. I had seen people hiking in joggers, I thought they were interesting but I don't know that I we had a conversation really. Before I just saw you developing a pair of joggers and I was like man that's perfect. Like and so yeah what what made you Think of, hey, I think we need to build a pair of joggers and why was there a Gap in what was maybe already available in in what joggers were out there?
[00:02:39] Brigham: Yeah, it was It was interesting. I kind of just I mean, really it was like a single evening at home, you know? Kids are probably getting ready for bed and I was perusing. You know YouTube videos about backpacking and watching People's gear lists and stuff like that. Those are typical things that a guy like me. Like, I like me does. But really it's just to get it's just getting into the minds of people that are getting out there and going on lots of backpacking trips. That's why I do that. But yeah, one night I just kind of Had watched a few videos of. People and their style of hiking and you know, and and they're wearing shorts and we've we've got the skyline Trail shorts. and then, but just watching some Of their commentary as they were exposed to certain weather conditions in the shorts and then kind of seeing the same thing with people and in some pants. And and, uh, watching some of those same people in their videos wearing, you know, something that was more like a jogger and then kind of just a bunch of things clicked all at once, where I thought like, I came to work the next day and basically, Put down an initial design on those joggers because I wanted the feelings and all those dots that I was connecting the night before to just get put down on paper like now and then. get a, you know, start making prototypes because I just saw these Gaps. And it was just a kind of a light bulb moment of thinking, like, there's there's a need for something out there between shorts and pants that just has, as many of the benefits of shorts and as few of the drawbacks of pants as possible for these guys that are You know, doing maybe high mileage, light and fast, type backpacking trips. To where they just didn't want. To deal with the traditional hiking pant.
[00:04:55] Tayson: Yeah, let's let's talk a little bit about like, what the Drawbacks are and the needs, right? So I mean, maybe I'll just start with with shorts and specific and then I'll let you talk a little bit about pants. But for me, when I talk when I think about like Is that we've had with shorts, right? Unless I'm pretty good examples of being out on Trails when the weather can swing is such a drastic amount that your shorts go from being perfect to being like not nearly enough protection and coverage from cold winds just elements, you know, hail snow we got snowed on and you know, in the summer months and and all sorts of things like that where it's just like the swing is can be so fast. And so rampant in the mountains, right? Like mountains create so much weather, and the bigger the mountain the more weather it creates, right. And so there's, there's Lots of opportunities for just massive swings. But for myself, like I have learned over time that I have to have the breathability that it like a short can offer or else. I just make a huge issue for myself. On these special, these faster lighter trips with output and trying to keep myself hydrated, and and sweat output and, you know, all these kinds of things. So, it's like, I kind of have to deal with shorts most of the time, or at least I had to before. As I needed to keep myself cool as best as I could. But but there is absolutely times when weather would come in and, you know, things like that, where it was a big deal or, you know, we've seen lots of people, there's guys still in our office that just refuse to hike in shorts because they don't like things brushing against their legs or they don't like getting dirty. You know like just tons of dirt on their their calves and legs all day long or last week I got ripped apart by bugs, like I mean I got bit all over I got I got such bad bites which I don't swell up from bug bites, but I got such bad bites that like like it, inflamed my arm and then I got a bite on my ankle. That inflamed my legs. So much that I thought I'd rolled my ankle because it was putting so much pressure on my tendons down there. And I probably had. 30 plus bites per leg. Not to mention my this Trail was super overgrown and had scratched the crap out of me like People were bleed, all of us were pretty much bleeding. It was it was a really it was our one of our worst Trails we've ever been on. It was our worst trail we'd ever been on and we would not go back and we ended up pulling the plug on it and it was a whole thing, right? But like I would have given a lot of money to trade my shorts that day for joggers. Like not saying that these joggers can just handle like absolutely bushwhacking, but I would rather maybe destroy a pair of joggers than, like, leave scars on my legs, which is what that trail ended up being. It was nasty, it was nasty. So, I mean, that's something for my side at least like some of the reasons I love shorts right, but Anything to add to that before we talk, maybe about like the drawbacks of pants because there's some drawbacks of pants.
[00:07:55] Brigham: Well, yeah, I mean just that it's not, there's just so many use cases, where there's If you have to choose between hiking pants or trekking pants and, and shorts and, and whether they're, you know, kind of like your traditional like, cargo short hiking pant turned into a short or running shorts that we that'll at least on YouTube. You know, everybody sees that every popular through hiker and in short hiking shorts. But, you know, the attraction that a lot of people you want to use shorts for the comfort aspect and the mobility. And the more miles you hike in a day, the more comfort and Mobility you want. So, you know, light, long distance fast, style of backpacking, you know, the shorts are just a really attractive option and I think, You know, kind of what I see is that we make some compromises. a lot of times, hopefully we're hopeful that we don't have to suffer through a snowstorm or a hailstorm or massive wind or, you know, we hope that everything will be great because we feel like that the shorts just the benefits outweigh the drawbacks and sometimes they do but when they when they don't is you know, it really becomes a negative, if not a, you know, dangerous situation, and then That's yeah, where I saw a need for you know, the the Trail Joggers that we're releasing. But yeah, I mean, let's
[00:09:34] Tayson: talk about pants too. Like There's, I mean, and I do want to throw the caveat out there, I'll continue to have time. So when I hike in pants, I'll continue to have times when I hike in joggers and times when I hike in shorts there's absolutely times and places for all of them you know, as a as a human like we don't have big thick fur and you know stuff like that that helps us regulate. And so we we regulate ourselves through technical apparel, and I really believe that technical apparel can can make or break trip sometimes. But it also just is so empowering and so comfortable, right? And so you get to go out there and spend time, as in these wild places. So little that it's like, this is one way that we can control maximizing those experiences but talk about pants like yeah. If we have we have some amazing pants, a lot of pants like really good pants. They're gonna have vents and they're gonna, you know, be shaped in a way that's still like, as conducive to movement as possible. You know, some of them are going to have a little bit heavier Fabrics, lighter Fabrics to help with temperatures just different things like that, but The drawbacks always were that even like our Sawtooth pants which are really on the lighter side of pants. Like as far as just a total weight, like they're 13 Oz. I want to say. Plus having two vents in them. Like we couldn't. We can't, I don't think I've ever hiked a 20-mile day in our Sawtooth pants. They're just too, too warm essentially. By the time, you're moving, that quickly all day long. They're gonna make too much sweat and they dry incredibly fast. But like, A point, like you're asking too much out of what that piece is. And then Mobility wise, you know, big, gusseted crotch and things like that. Like they have a lot of movement in them. But there's, there's no comparison to like shorts, right? And so, depending on what the trip is, you know, you've seen us go to a lot of shorts. And those are some of the big drawbacks I have is just temperatures and Mobility. Yeah, there's definitely times when they're phenomenal because the wind picks up or starts to rain or sleet or snow, you know, and they are really quick-drying, but like still to dry out a fabric. That's about twice as much weight is. You know, there's just that much more area to hold on to the water. And so yes they're incredibly quick drying for what they are. I mean off-the-charts quick-drying for what they are but they're just a
[00:12:02] Brigham: heavier fabric, I think. Yeah. And another thing I think between Short, let's just say shorts and pants to make it easier shorts and pants. I think. Where the? The drawbacks are magnified. And probably the benefits are also magnified are. So I think the drawbacks are magnified. In between Seasons shoulder seasons, and the benefits are most easily recognized in. The polar Seasons, winter and summer, right? So it's like, yeah, most the time in summertime shorts are going to be fine. Most of the time in winter time. Pants are going to be the right choice. but it's the gaps that like, I feel like is where you get so much usability out of the trail jogger, because It's going to do so many of the things, well, that a short that shorts do in the shoulder Seasons that you might not want to wear shorts because it's still going to be freezing. It's still gonna be really cold. You're gonna get more precipitation and vice versa. Like there's going to be shoulder Seasons where depending on where you are. Yeah. Now you are going to be a lot warmer or and because of that because of that warmth your planting a longer trip, where you want more speed, more mobility and the comfort that maybe pants just can't offer. So I feel like that's kind of where you really start to draw out the benefits of having this, you know, the joggers available as an option. And then, there's still so many times on these polar Seasons that the
[00:13:39] Tayson: joggers have solid applicability. Like we say yeah, shorts most of the time might work in summer months but I think there's something that we'll circle back to when we start talking about the weight. Impact ability of these and versatility of these. Because Yeah, I mean there's there's times when we've been hit by crazy weather and it would have been like, oh, yeah, for sure on a jogger. But there's also just like times of day when you're high altitude, the temperatures can swing so much that you know, like we're not. Like I've never told anyone to bring two pairs of pants on a trip and I probably never will probably but like a pair of shorts and a pair of joggers, there's enough ways to use them and sleep in them and other things like that, that it's a real consideration, right? And so, Yeah, and I think, I think what we so, I guess those are kind of covered some of the drawbacks, right? And I think people are pretty aware of those. And like I said, I bet there's people that are listening to this right now that are like, I'm a pants guy. Like when I was out hiking, the Appalachian Trail There was a band of people that in the hottest conditions. I remember hiking in in a while we're wearing pants and I was like, this is insane, right? But like, that's what they did. That's what made them comfortable, and Phil comfortable, and feel safe, and, and whatnot. And it makes sense. I mean, sometimes it's like some of Is like just tick protection alone, or spider protection alone because I can't even begin to describe how many spiders. there are [spiders] per square foot out there, but, you know, like there's just things where it's like people want pants, right? And so there's so you probably already might fall into one of these categories, but as we go through this, I think we will significantly help the people that just have to hike in pants. Yeah, and we'll give some amazing options for people that are like, I'm a short hiker because of where this landed not building a jogger for lounging, not building a jogger for, you know, just whatever hanging out and or stretching at a yoga studio like that. Like, these are specifically Trail joggers, that's why it's in the title and we've done a lot of specific things, fabric choices, venting Etc. That are specific to making these Excel and work in this environment. Better than than I actually thought it was going to be possible. Personally like when we set out on this project that I think that's part of what makes me so excited about this. I think they ended better than I thought they could have from the start. So yeah, just absolutely phenomenal. So kind of kind of build up the issues. Let's talk about Talk about initial design ideas like again, kind of coming back to the story of like, all right, what did we want to begin to build? And then let's maybe share some some testing stories. And you know, again by the end we'll dial in the exact features. What landed what state? What and why, right? But so beginning like I imagine your goals heading out were, you know, mobility and breathability. We're probably top of the chart, right?
[00:16:34] Brigham: Yeah. Just a lightweight. Jogger that had excellent Mobility especially in comparable to a pant but also comparable to shorts. I kind of started thinking of this as like a continuation of the skyline shorts that we already offer Trail shorts concept and then just turning that into a long pant. Yeah. Really lightweight wanted them very mobile, wanted them breathable so that they are you know holding on to a lot of the benefits of shorts like and mobility and comfort. They they almost or oftentimes come hand in hand because because Mobility creates Comfort, because if it's mobile, that means it's not restrictive, but all these had to be part of the mobility aspect is how they're how they fit and how they're cut in terms of, you know, how much room do we want in the thigh, the knee, the calf, the hip area and and so That I kind of thought of them, the overall concept was this very trim lightweight and comfortable. jogger that filled a lot of the gaps.
[00:17:55] Tayson: Yeah. So, when you talk about like them being lightweight, did you come in with like an idea of what those are? Like, I know that we talked really early on about like, Like, all right, like, we'd messed with some some wind pants. We purchased wind and done some R&D on wind pants and kind of like, Have that bouncing around our heads. And then I think you were looking at some Fabrics with these and you're like, man these can weigh just a little bit more or something and yeah an offer a ton. So yeah. Like to start out. Was there a weight in mind was there? Just any thoughts related to that?
[00:18:34] Brigham: I wouldn't say there was a Target weight. Like, oh, you know, one of our priorities is to make them under, you know, x amount of ounces. But it was, I'd say, make being very aware that okay on the very crazy lightweight Speck end of the spectrum is like, you know, you can find these wind pants that are You know, made of incredibly fragile, lightweight Fabrics, that weigh like two. Ounces you know they roll up to the size of a I don't know, a racquetball but you know if you brush your your wedding ring against it you're ripping a hole in it. They stick to your skin because they're so densely or so, they're so or coated and or finished in a way where they're where they're calendered to really make them windproof with such a thin Fabric and So eventually they end up just being like almost a plastic bag but they're very lightweight. So knowing kind of what the ultra light wind pant weighs knowing what you know and athleisure set of knit, you know baggy joggers is going to weigh know knowing what our Skyline Trail Shorts weigh. Like I kind of had an idea that you know, I really want to get these, you know, Close to the weight of some shorts because, you know, you kind of know what from a durability standpoint and a feature set. Um, where things are going to land? And it was almost, it was kind of like an evolving. number of where, just kind of knew that. Yeah. For not much more than a pair of wind pants. I think we could come up with something that we could use. You know, exponentially more than a pair of wind pants. That was just going to take a lot of check off a lot of boxes for people.
[00:20:26] Tayson: Yeah, I mean a pair of wind pants. I have had them in my pack, I have used them a little and, They seem like a really cool tool like they seem like it. I have rarely pulled them out and actually use them and when I have it's been like I want to get them off as quick as I can to. Yeah. Because they're quite unbreathable and and, like fragile, right? So, it's kind of both sides of that. Like, I don't want to wear them too much. I'm gonna break them, or I'm gonna sit down on a rock and literally put a hole, right? And I'm or like you get like essentially if you're wearing a pair of shorts, like they just stick to you like a yeah. Like a trash bag would well like when wet. And
[00:21:12] Brigham: part of the Kind of the conceptual part of a wind pant as an isolated piece to supplement. What you're already wearing is they, they have to be able to put on easily and take off easily. So they're generally made very baggy, right? Because you want to be able to pull them up over your shoes and not have to hassle, maybe you don't want to add the weight or the vulnerability of zippers. So they're they're made. A little bit counterintuitively. Become a windsail in the wind, they're meant to block the wind but generally they're they're oversized for ease of putting them on and off. but they're made for the wind and all of a sudden, you've got all this excess fabric that Flaps in the wind and catches wind. And I just saw so many, you know, just things that I didn't like about a win pant as as an additional item to pack and kind of going back to that weight. Kind of, you know, an idea of a weight for the piece is like, I guess, one of the things I thought of a lot was Well. Let's just say this is an additional piece that maybe somebody's going to consider just packing not wearing on a trip.
[00:22:31] Tayson: Yeah,
[00:22:31] Brigham: it has to weigh. Like let what is low enough? The weight has to be as low as possible. That somebody may actually feel okay about packing an additional piece like the joggers sitting
[00:22:46] Tayson: in a pack. Yeah, wait, bulk. All of it.
[00:22:49] Brigham: Exactly. But at the same time, if that's not the case, then they have to be so usable that. They can almost apply to almost any backpacking trips. So, then that because on the other end of that spectrum is no. So many doesn't want to pack an extra bottle, right? So then they have to be usable to be worn all day for most trips in a lot of wide variety of conditions. So as opposed to packing a wind pant that may not ever get used and Was get used your. You really are, like you said, kind of like rain pants. Like, you want to get them off as quickly as possible
[00:23:26] Tayson: and
[00:23:26] Brigham: you want to delay putting them on as much as possible.
[00:23:29] Tayson: Yeah. That's not like hugely knock when pants. No, no. Because I mean, we just kind of knocked our own Sawtooth pants and stuff. Like there's just, there's pros and cons to all of it. Like, obviously, these pants, these joggers do not weigh two ounces and you could find when pants that might be, you know, About that. But so let's, let's talk a little bit then about where you started this. I think naturally it's just easiest to talk about the, the Fabrics themselves and where we came up with the ideas of those and thankfully that part of the puzzle was easier for us to put together because we've already built an amazing Trail short that we tested for thousands of miles, right? So like so, this pant does utilize this jogger, does utilize the same Fabrics as the trail shorts. If you have a pair of Trail shorts and you felt how crazy thin and light, those Fabrics are both the mesh, you know, knit breathable sides of it and then the the main face fabric of it. That's going to be the same fabric that is used in this, which is just an absolutely incredible fabric. I have to say, like, you really appreciate it in the trail shorts but you even appreciate it more in the joggers because there's just more of it to like appreciate and like actually get to know it right? Because it's not like it's a whatever it is 9 or whatever inseam on the Trail Shorts. So it's a really light fabric, it's also 100% polyester, so it dries, ridiculously fast, there's no other materials in there, making it slower to to dry out and then durability wise because this correct me if I'm wrong this fabric is under 100 GSM, right? Just under. Yeah so it's it's crazy light, right? You're talking about like a like a three-ounce fabric and It for, for what it is. It's incredibly durable, right? Like, this is lighter. This material is lighter than most people's t-shirts. It's actually. Like if you've had our Tern Ultralight T-Shirt, it's even a hair lighter per square yard. Then our turn like Ultra Lite t-shirt. But to have this level, like durability, right? It's woven differently and [constructed] differently And just offer a tremendous amount of durability. So it's
[00:25:56] Brigham: incredible fabric. I mean, what else? I just I would characterize it as a very balanced for for our objectives because it's very, very balanced. Of course, if we were to use a much or substantially heavier fabric like yeah, that would that would You know, favor durability significantly right. But but then we lose so many of the other properties or, you know, characteristics that we're trying to Achieve as much as possible. So I just think it's just really balanced and you know, it is nice that we had proven the fabric already through our Skyline Trail shorts but just, you know for for anybody listening In terms of doing our due diligence. Yeah, we made prototypes early on in this fabric, but we also made plenty of prototypes in other Fabrics including heavier Fabrics. Yeah, as well. And that's, that's really important, because There's there's just the potential to to miss something. If we make too many assumptions like oh we'd love it in these shorts so it's probably just going to be just fine in the pants or the joggers. So let's just roll with it. We I like I just wouldn't feel good about. Bringing these to Market like that, but so we did. We did research and we made prototypes and several other Fabrics that were I think they were all heavier and which didn't have the same balance,
[00:27:31] Tayson: right? Yeah, I mean, I I should have, I should have brought that up, but, yeah, and I have two different protos with much heavier Fabrics or not much heavier, but definitely heavier. You can instantly feel it. No, and because I remember that was a like a concern of mine pretty early on was like, yeah, works in the shorts but you know, joggers, are gonna take way more abuse and, you know, just some things that like what do we need to refined a balance point and really the answer was was no, like, they're really Wasn't I this is my stance on it. I didn't have a durability issue with the current lighter weight fabrics and and so then it just became like this is just heavy or just hotter. Just you know, slower to dry Etc. And so we yeah. I mean We tested it though. Yeah, right? Yeah, for sure. Just yeah. So It is I think that's a great way to say it super balanced fabric. I will say it's it's on the light side. I mean, it incredibly light but you the the fact that it's still stays balanced is what I think makes it really. Yeah. And
[00:28:42] Brigham: again, product concept is a very lightweight Trail jogger that That we're going to want to use, you know, a lot, a lot for a lot of miles so that that's what put some bias into making them lightweight. But then again have for trail jogger. Like you said, it's got to be durable enough to to do those miles trip after trip, it has to dry quickly. It has to be comfortable.
[00:29:08] Tayson: So, we we came up with or Brigham came up with the original, you know, protos some of the vents and things that we had on them and just to start out, I don't actually don't remember on the very first Proto. Which of, or if all of these vents were there, but like we were going to have the nice big gusseted in the crotch. I was like huge, right? It's immensely important especially when you're hiking bigger miles and and so on and so forth. I mean, you're going to want to gusset that crotch anyways, which to those that don't understand what that means. It basically means you're adding another strip of material through the crotch that it creates a lot of Mobility benefits and comfort benefits. But then being able to swap that fabric for a breathable piece, obviously creates a lot of venting. I believe we had some kind of a vent on the side similar to the trail shorts, but I couldn't, I can't. Yeah, remember
[00:29:57] Brigham: basically, I took the crotch gusset and the hip package from the skyline Trail shorts and just put it right onto the joggers. I did add on the first prototype, the same Breathable mesh on the back yoke. So that's basically the whole time. Yeah, so that's basically a panel of fabric that sits just below the waistband kind of above the butt, right? So yeah, YouTube all I'll start to show
[00:30:30] Tayson: a little bit of the jogger as we we described this. But so we got this initial Proto. What do you remember? Being the first trip? We took it on when did we get the first proto was—it was either late ’22 or early ’23. I don't remember to get some reference first. this is, A faster development. Like so just keep that in mind like that's like pretty much and that's a faster development and that's all that's all. So with like Part of what made this development faster? Wasn't that we had to do less protos. It was just the speed at which we could get the prototypes done because of fabric availability and some things like that. So I mean there was a lot of I've got a freaking hole there's
[00:31:24] Brigham: a whole drawer dedicated to just joggers at the house. I need to start cycling through all the protos, but yeah.
[00:31:32] Tayson: So so I guess I'm trying to think of like, when the first trip was like, full like overnight trip, not just like, taking out hiking locally, not just wearing them. Yeah, I don't know if I can if I can pinpoint that, but we did kind of do that. Obviously through spring and in the summer a little bit, and then last year. Yeah. And then obviously, we everyone saw them on the Colorado Trail documentary that we released where, I know we did something. I know we did some desert trips and kind of late winter
[00:32:04] Brigham: early spring. One or two in Zion,
[00:32:08] Tayson: was there anything big tweaks that we did before? We did the Colorado Trail in them? You can remember any I mean I think we were tested the different Fabrics.
[00:32:19] Brigham: Testing Fabrics. Yeah. The first several prototypes were testing out, different fabrics, and then I do the most important tweaks we were making at that point were fit. Getting the fit, right? And kind of the just that overall profile the taper of the jogger themselves. Let's talk about
[00:32:39] Tayson: fit for a minute. I think there's a, there's probably people out there that maybe somewhat like, where you and I both were, which was brand new to wearing joggers much, if ever.
[00:32:50] Brigham: I had never worn joggers in my life.
[00:32:53] Tayson: Yeah, they had like, in some ways they maybe have like a little bit of a reputation almost maybe for specially like slightly older demographic. Maybe they don't [appeal to them]; they seem like the new trendy thing, and maybe people even are gonna think like, oh, out, or if I was like jumped on this trend of joggers, right? But it's So I think it's important we talk a little bit about like how the joggers fit, what the goal is like
[00:33:19] Brigham: these joggers are not built for look and appeal and
[00:33:25] Tayson: you know, just being new and yeah, whatever. But like, so I don't know what
[00:33:31] Brigham: it does. I it does, you know, some some there may be a school of thought out there that would hear my statement be like, well, that's that's a dumb move. But I'm gonna say it. These were Designed and built to be like a tool. Right. Like just an enabling tool for like again. Just Allowing. People to have better experience out there. Aesthetic. Takes definitely takes a back seat and you will
[00:34:09] Tayson: Brigham does not design for Aesthetics one day. We will hire a designer that maybe really, really cares about that. I'm just gonna say that. So he's thinking is true, right? And that's, that's why I said like, there's there's validity to, you know, if there's You know, some things that we do lack or this product May lack. Yeah, it may not be the most fashionable. It's not like, we don't care what it looks like, but we're definitely. I mean, I think performance first, 100% of the time. Yeah. performance first, 100% of the time, but one of the side benefits of using really nice Fabrics, as they often look really nice, you can Like so yeah. So we don't have to focus on the look but they often turn out looking really sharp. So yeah, talk to me about like Like joggers. So fit wise first and foremost was like, we're gonna do tall inseams for these because you know I put these on I've got like a 34 inch inseam. Like that's like my goal is not to just show my entire what my leg here. My ankle, right? And so we we do have two different lengths because in these joggers, yeah. Like it's not necessarily about just showcasing your ankles or anything like that, right? Yeah.
[00:35:28] Brigham: For sure. so, you're saying that we're We're gonna have regular length and then tall inseams because if you're, if you're taller you've got longer legs than I mean they're just not gonna work well for you, right? And they're going to probably look silly. So yeah, you're right. So we're gonna have a taller inseam option with these so we've got a tall inseam as far as other aspects of the fit. You know, again, our goal is not to make them big and baggy. So we did add an articulated knee on this which is, you know, you're essentially call that pleating around the knee to make it so that they gonna Bend and fit really well without having to make them big and baggy. Yeah,
[00:36:07] Tayson: the part about it as you make a big and baggy and let's say our starting to sweat in them. Your skin will start to stick to fabric, whatever it is, and start to like be less less mobile anyways, right? So like, I was actually with Will, the new guy on our team? He's a stud. He busted out some huge like wind pants on our last trip that you weren't on and they were they were sight to see. I love them. Yeah, but like I actually was thinking about that I'm like, sometimes having so much fabric, actually ends up becoming a binding Point.
[00:36:42] Brigham: Yeah, I one of my In my mind, one of my beliefs is like that that how a piece fits definitely affects its performance. They are they are associated and connected. There's this in my brain, there's a concept of efficiency and efficiency goes for being efficient with not having fabric waste. It goes with efficiency of energy and effort. So how how An apparel piece fits is how I design them is for efficiency. And and I would refer to this as being efficiently trimmed. And and what that means is with all the objectives for this piece, being able to be highly mobile lightweight comfortable, Block wind. Block a little bit of precipitation. Again, going back to the, the really Flappy wind pants. Like, that's, that's not what we want. We don't want excess fabric because that's just unnecessary drag, you're putting on your body every time you step up when you're climbing a hill or or something steep, you know, that's that's drag when the wind starts to blow that's dragged against your body in the direction you're moving. So I I really like the the, the term efficiently trim because There's there's not excess fabric but there's not it's not undersized and in any real area of the joggers. So so that when somebody does put it on their going, to feel a sense of room, a sense of breathability a Mobility without Kind of the excess fat, right? So that's, that's how I would categorize it.
[00:38:30] Tayson: Yeah, I agree. And that took several iterations to dial in where where
[00:38:35] Brigham: to have where to add a little bit more room where to take away a more room and
[00:38:39] Tayson: growing the size of the cuff, you know, just different things like that. I would add to this too. That one thing that I've dealt with a lot is like chafing that occurs when I have too big of a pant or item. So bigger the item is the lower it often hangs in the crotch it's on 100% like because every piece can be a little bit different but And the lower that hangs in the crotch the more chafing I develop right. And so there's so there's aspects of that too like the the better this fits the less likely to add friction and aid in preventing things like chafing. So so we work on on the fit for a handful of iterations. We test some Fabrics. We're getting this. I would say pretty close. And And we decide hey we're going out on the Colorado Trail for five days. This is a great opportunity to test this product. Let's do it. Alright so me and you wear a version of prototypes out on the Colorado Trail. I, I was thinking on the Colorado Trail, we didn't have Side vent, or at least not a full side vent. We did because we went out there.
[00:40:00] Brigham: It was very hot. it was very hottest days—I swear it was like a record, The Perfect Storm apart because I remember, kind of the, the conversation came up with like you know, we like doing these long hikes and shorts right, you know, and Should we or do we even want to wear the joggers? And, and I was pretty set on you know, like hey if we're going to tell people that This has such a broad use case. Like I need they need to be used on 100. Mile hike. Not 100 Collective Miles because we have way more than 100 Collective miles between the joggers but 100 mile hike. In the middle of summer and when I say The Perfect Storm of heat, it was because it was like a record heat wave in Colorado. And a lot of the West and which, you know, honestly that made it even better. Maybe less comfortable because it was so hot, like, hot is hot, you know, no matter what you're wearing, but I really wanted to kind of do this proof of concept that you know what? Yeah, it's gonna be hot but How far can we push these in terms of the heat envelope capability of these of the joggers?
[00:41:19] Tayson: Yeah, plus we're doing between 20 and 24 miles a day at the hiking, right? So we take them out there and it was it was a phenomenal test. It was To me, I guess my takeaways on. It were, we definitely don't want to have your fabric. We? We want to add in some additional venting which which for those you watching. Is this big side vent. It was like, all right, we do want these to be the absolute most breathable like anywhere we can, you know like let's let's add that in. Like we both were in agreement with that. definitely, take away as we're like, they're super nice when it cools off quickly at night and when bugs start coming out, like, it was You know, you have to think about it leg stayed way cleaner than they ever have on the 100-mile hikes before. Yeah. Those are, those are a lot of my takeaways. I think from that, from that trip.
[00:42:24] Brigham: Yeah. Sun sun protection. I'm terrible. And we probably have video evidence of this but I'm terrible at remembering to apply any sunscreen. So like my legs and knees and knee pits, they get fried so that was really nice. But yeah, I mean you're right. It was very clear that we wanted to increase. The breathability, the ventilation of them after the trip. But it was. I it was a it was a very satisfying testing ground. For for the joggers at the lot of things out that we were on the right track. Gave us some pointers as to what to improve. and also gave us the, in my opinion, like the confidence to to tell you kind of like where the maybe where the limit is like, I don't know that there's a lot of I don't like to refer other brands, but it just in general, You know, in terms of a brand recommending their product for a certain use case. Like I think it's really helpful to be able to know first hand like hey, This is like kind of the upper upper limit. I wouldn't say we totally reached the upper limit. We started approaching it in terms of like yeah, when it was 85 Degrees, like, 85 degrees with a, with a pack on high current fast. No, no, no cloud cover whatsoever, just Sun, 85 degrees and this is at 10,000 feet covering miles, like, Still usable, we can still appreciate a lot of the benefits of having a long coverage pant on that. and and to be able to tell like the customer, like, yes, if I would not have wanted to be in, Trekking pants. I would not have wanted to be in a traditional hiking pant on that trip there's times and yes, it would have been cooler. Meaning more comfortable with the temperature. Had we been wearing shorts? but there was times when the benefits of a long pant would have been appreciated so you know I feel like it's it's a good thing to be able to say you know we've taken them into what I would call hot weather and we you know we can recommend that there's there's like a ceiling you know just but and an expectation because we ran into people on that trail in pants. Plenty of people in like traditional hiking pants They were enjoying themselves. But there's no doubt Like It's Hot, you know? I
[00:45:07] Tayson: I would say this about the joggers that I learned from that trip as well. Which is. And this this applies to a ton of other testing. We've been I've consistently done too, which is just like, I could go Hours and hours, even a full day. Without realizing that I even had the joggers on compared to shorts Like I'm hiking with two guys, a short. So one guy with joggers and like Mobility wise and just going throughout the day, you just can forget that you weren't wearing shorts even in those hosts situations. In fact, it wasn't until we almost finished day. One, which was absolutely the hottest day, in my opinion of the trip, were hiking from lower country to higher country. We're doing nothing but climbing like five plus thousand feet of vertical in the heat. We're getting these Canyons where there's no wind sometimes really hot day. I mean, you can go look at the video like Derek on our team, who usually does pretty well in the heat. I feel like like He was like just dripping sweat. He was wearing sweats and that was like the only day where I got to the very end of the day and I was like, oh yeah, I was wearing joggers it probably I probably wouldn't have sweat quite as much with without these are I might as well a little better at the end of the day or something but like What I guess what? I'm trying to get out with these is, is they feel so much like a short when you wear them compared to a pant that it's easy to forget during other testing which I'll come back to finish the story but like during a lot of other testing I run, I've been running a lot in the joggers in the winter when there was any kind of Colder Breeze blowing and it's 20 30 degrees out and I'd get through the whole run and it was like when it's getting back in my truck like, oh yeah, I'm wearing joggers today like like, meaning just the mobility aspect of them was never like, they just Fit on so well, Comfort wise, they work well enough that I could, I can completely forget that they are joggers. And so like that's a lot to the venting but also the mobility aspect of them and and that definitely like got hammered home on that Colorado Trail trip.
[00:47:15] Brigham: Yeah.
[00:47:16] Tayson: So I was like a pretty pivotal point. I think that was like that that trip in general brought us back it proved out a bunch of positive things. We decided. Okay, we're gonna add the side vent just to give it that extra little boost, which I don't know if it was little or not. Now that we've done it. Like it's a, it's a genuinely noticeable vent, um, and makes a big difference. But it was a really phenomenal test and then we, you know, made that switch and we're pretty locked in on Fabrics by that point and just continued to test it all throughout you know the winter essentially we've been continuing. I mean I've been consistently getting prototypes all through the winter dialing in you know all the the smallest little things and so Yeah, I mean that's like and I guess in bulk that's like the quick story of the development and that's some unique aspects. But
[00:48:10] Brigham: before we kind of just Hammer home some of the
[00:48:14] Tayson: The specifics on the pant and call out the features themselves. Anything else that you want to call out and development or story?
[00:48:26] Brigham: know, I think, I think that that's a pretty good. Pretty good, synopsis.
[00:48:32] Tayson: Okay, so let's let's just kind of hammer through. We can take the These joggers here in front of us and just maybe we'll just start at the top. We've talked about the fabric itself, one thing we just haven't mentioned is exactly where all of the events are so there's one across the back yoke, which would be like just above like your back pocket.
[00:48:52] Brigham: Yeah.
[00:48:53] Tayson: There is a vent in the gusset, which we've mentioned. And there's a side vent that essentially goes from right underneath the bottom of the pocket, all the way down to the cuff. So there is four vents in this, which like as like been preparing some, some aspects on this is like, well, they're at least twice as vented as the next-best pant, because most pants have like two vents, right? These have four. I was just kind of silly thing, but, but that doesn't even Factor in this fact that like the weight of these pants is so much lighter than the main Fabrics. Gonna be more breathable. Also, inside of the pocket, we specifically, you know, use a mesh—more breathable material. So that the even the pockets can vent a little bit. So venting on this very, very high. Main face fabric. We talked about it's 100% polyester. There is a dwr treatment on this to give it. Some Water repellency Works quite well and we kind of talked a little bit about how it does in in weather, right?
[00:49:56] Brigham: Yeah.
[00:49:57] Tayson: Let's let's like just maybe expand on that really quick before we get into some of these other features. So Start off. I want to say, I think people significantly underestimate, The difference of going from complete exposure of skin to any layer of material between you and the wind, or you in anything. And so even though this is a crazy light material, Huge difference in its ability to block, wind temperature, regulate, help you. It's like I mention when I'm out there running sometimes out there running in 30-mile-per-hour winds and it's in the 20s and I'm comfortable as can be just by taking that slight edge off of the wind hitting me. So it it's it is substantial and amazing. How much even just this thin of a material makes a difference in the weather.
[00:50:50] Brigham: Yeah. And I would say it's very It feels more, heavily biased. When it's when we're talking, like heat loss versus in warmer weather. So if to kind of describe the situation of like man I brought it up in the office. There was a trip. I went on when I was I plan on doing one or two runs on this trip in the morning. It was in in the winter time. and I planned on taking my, my joggers, because That's, I knew the temperatures in the morning, we're going to be in like the mid-teens, but I still needed to run an exercise. So, I plan on taking the joggers, and but when I got there, I forgot, or I realized, I'd forgotten to pack them. So, I just ran in my, my Skyline shorts. And, I mean, yeah, what you said is spot, On exposure to the that amount of skin and just remember being done and my kneecaps just being completely numb. whereas in the same temperatures I've gone out running with the joggers and It's almost. Like, just perfect, just the perfect amount because really, it's, you just need enough to block the exposure block. Whatever wind is is taking effect and taking the heat out of out of your body. So it's much more noticeable. The benefit with cold and that Dynamic and it just doesn't seem to be as substantial Amount. I'm not suggesting going and running in these in like mild weather or warm weather. Like don't do it. But yeah, that's a it's a very significant. Property of like the fabric and and cold weather.
[00:52:40] Tayson: Yeah. And I think the the last like caveat to this is and we've talked about this before, like wind is the thief of the backcountry; it just steals heat away from you. And I found that these to be extremely adequate for for warmth in a ton of situations with the with the slight caveat of like most of those times were were moving a little bit. Right? So that you're generating heat and it's just allowing that heat to not get ripped away ripped, right off your body. I would not necessarily recommend, these are like, Pants like puffy pants, right? They're not like they're not like you sit, they're not really cool temperatures and do nothing and feel super comfortable, right? So that's kind of the to just try to break that apart a little bit but
[00:53:28] Brigham: So real quick, I want to mention just because there's you know, some people will only be listening this one when you're talking about the vents. When we're just we kind of just refer to them as vents don't think of them as this opening in the pant, the what we refer to as the vents. Yeah, it's a it's a A type of fabric we use so there are panels of this fabric that's highly breathable, it's like an eyelet Jersey mesh. But it's not, it's not see-through. So it's, we use it in the skyline Trail shorts, but if anybody hasn't seen those Trail shorts, just think of it as a solid fabric that is extremely breathable it like it's a knit fabric so it's inherently got the ability to open up a lot of space for for heat excess, heat to escape and if you do, hold it up to light. That's a really great way to to see what we're talking about is like you can see the mesh structure, but it is. Not see through so you're not exposing [what is] inside your pants. Yeah, no one's yeah
[00:54:34] Tayson: in there.
[00:54:35] Brigham: That's that's pretty much the only way so phone light off and if anybody that is listening has used our Ventus Hoodie one comment we get a lot is like people notice the the perforated uninsulated armpits immediately. Anytime you know, they'll tell us like yes as soon as you lift your arms up in the air, your elbows up in the air, you immediately feel it. It's kind of like that with with this. It's not a perforated fabric but Any kind of air movement. You immediately feel? Those strategically placed ventilation panels. So in the back Yoke, the crotch, the out seam down to the cuff, like you get some air movement, you'll, you'll feel where that ventilation is taking place. So we've talked about
[00:55:22] Tayson: two Fabrics here. Talked about the venting talk about the stretch of the fabrics for me. So the
[00:55:28] Brigham: fabric is a mechanical stretch so and it's a very light. So it's a woven fabric that has stretch mechanically woven in and built with the structure of the fabric so it doesn't have any Spandex and that's beneficial just to save some weight and and help the pants dry a little bit faster. but it's, I wouldn't call it massively stretchy, and that's that's by Design, because oftentimes, when if you get too much stretch, Then you get bounce. Let's say you've got any any items in your pocket. You you actually get energy loss through the consistent bouncing of of the Garment itself. So yeah it's got a mechanical stretch built into the fabric. Yeah,
[00:56:24] Tayson: okay so this is the fabrics and let's talk a little bit about we'll just start right here at the very top of these. We've got an elastic waist in these as well as a drawcord, the elastic drawcord. So this makes it so it's it's super fast to tighten up a little bit and then loosen them up a bit. But you always will have some elastic pretty decent amount of elastic in the waist itself. We tried tie options, we tried some different options, came to this one, What I love about this one is I like to run It On full loose mode and then if I put anything in the pockets, which we'll talk about in a second sometimes that can start to essentially if you're moving pretty good. Like, it can start to require maybe just a little bit of more attention in the waist strap and waistband and so I'll just tighten that up a tiny bit and then I'm good to go. If I'm running my phone and a wallet in my, in my shorts here. So, or pants here. So, but yeah, just a really comfortable top and then just really quick adjustment on it. No tying, no, you know, messing around with anything there. It's just a quick, you know, you're just quickly pulling on this and giving it a little bit of tightness if you need it, otherwise you can run it basically in full loose mode. Yeah,
[00:57:43] Brigham: I think most of the time, most people probably won't ever need to tighten it, but
[00:57:48] Tayson: agree. I agree. Okay, so come in a little bit farther down the pant. Let's talk about the pockets and I was probably something you guys wish we would hit on very first people love Pockets. So I Really, really like that. So we've got two front hand Pockets to talk about. First, I really like these front hand Pockets. We've added kind of this this sharper Corner in here and that sharper Corner does a lot for retention of items in the pocket. I think aesthetically. They look really sharp and then I mean, I've seen people wearing even like knives, right? Like these are knife clip right there, and it fits really, really well stays in place. So yeah, told me a little bit more about the design of the pocket and yeah. I put
[00:58:37] Brigham: quite a bit of thought into the pocket details. Yeah, a lot of iterations dialing in the spacing the angles, the internal pocket bag because I Just kind of it all. Had to fit the overall concept of a trail jogger. A jogger that we want to Be putting miles in, and if, and if the pockets there, we want it to be usable and eliminate as many potential drawbacks, or, or issues as possible. So, you know, I brainstormed maybe, okay. Well, it's a trail jogger. People don't want to be losing things. We maybe we put zippered Pockets, right, zippered Pockets. I didn't like that idea, zippers, that creates discomfort on the hip adds to the weight of the, to the piece adds potential vulnerabilities and tension. And they're, they're just not as streamlined as and as usable in my mind for this the concept of this product. but I also, Knew and expected myself and everyone else to probably use the pockets. Not just to put their hands in but to put items in. So I I really just want to create like a passively secure pocket that had this passive retention that things aren't going to easily work their way out. So obviously you'll see there's no closure, there's no zipper, there's no way to secure them per se, but that's where the angles of the pocket opening and the the corner design in conjunction with the pocket bag, shape all came into place. That things pretty naturally in the resting position in the pocket when they're moved around. They tend or they almost. Are persuaded to stay down versus work their way up and out of the pocket and I think there's a lot of like this knit that's on
[01:00:37] Tayson: the inside of this pocket. So that I think of like when I lose stuff out of my pockets a lot, it's it's too shallow. It's like a slippery, like basketball short material. Yeah. You know, there's some of that going on. Yeah. I mean, I I wear these a lot in phone Keys, you know, stick them down in there and I can wear them. And I've never never lost him out of there. So like the shape that you build them in material, I think the opening itself. Yeah, they definitely retain so much better than a typical short basketball short running short. So they're, they're very functional. I would say in, like, I can fit a full-size, you know, pro version of a phone in there, with the three or four lenses. They stick on those suckers. Now, the massive batteries, like, fits in the pockets. Great. So we also added a pocket on the back and you'll hear in the microphone that there is a zipper. This is a I mean more or less. Probably you could just consider this a wallet. Yeah pocket. Yep and that's what I'm using it for but it is zippered. It is it is super nice. Yeah. Like when I'm out on the Colorado Trail, I'm not leaving a wallet and keys in a phone. In my pockets, the whole time, I'm going nothing in my pockets and everything in the hip belt of my pack and shoulder straps. But the nice thing about these is just Versatile. Like I still use the pockets. Maybe not on long distance hikes, but like sometimes it's short hikes. Sometimes it's local runs and local. Or I'm wearing them today at the office. There's super comfortable. Yeah, I think and and Coming up on the podcast. I'm sure we'll talk about some more of the versatility and that's again built into it. But Before we get to that just like, you know, you said not always using them on Long hikes, well, you got to get to that hike somewhere, right? So you're going from your house, your office, the airport, whatever. Well, generally have keys a phone and wallet. So that's, yeah, that's you. Hit the nail on the head. It's a wallet pocket and I would want a zipper on that pocket. Just so, yeah, it's got some security. Yep. Um, moving down the pant. Like I said, we've already talked about the articulated knee. And then we've got the bottom opening cuff here. So this this cuff just to talk a little bit about that, we definitely played around with different heights of the cuff widths of the cuff. I would say this is a pretty pretty generously. Open cuff versus some joggers. That might be always really restrictive, the nice aspect of having it more open. In my opinion, is one it doesn't ride up on your calf and then like stick and then two, you know, I was a little bit of air movement to come down and out of the pant as well. So it's like it's almost like a tapered versus like a true like jogger seal if that makes sense. Yeah, describe it.
[01:03:35] Brigham: Yeah, it's I mean for I think for most people, you know, it's not going to Like leave evidence that it was sticking—[a ring around your ankle]. It's it's going to move pretty freely at all times. You know? And again, that's that's by Design promotes and enables a little bit of airflow and movement prevents a little bit of binding or almost any binding. It's not it's less restrictive. So yeah, we we definitely Went through some variations of that. Okay, so let's
[01:04:10] Tayson: talk about maybe the last thing we kind of skipped over which is just the weight, the weight itself.
