[00:00:00] Tayson: Everybody. Welcome to the Live Ultralight Podcast. Powered by Outdoor Vitals. Today, we have one of your favorite episodes, which is a product Deep dive on a new product and improved product and updated product. Whatever you want to view this, as it ends up being more or less an entirely new product is how we typically look at it internally because we've We've changed a lot on this. Also, on that note, it is one of our best-selling products out there. It is. Our StormLoft Down TopQuilt. So, today, I've got Brigham on the podcast on the mic here to talk about, what we've been up to, as far as updating this product and improving a product that I would say. We already felt like was phenomenal product, that's kind of an interesting thing to, I mean, thinking a little bit
[00:00:47] Tayson: about this now Brigham, you've been here, five years, five and a half years now, And it's it's been interesting because when you came in there was new projects that you immediately took over and there was old products that were currently selling that. We wanted to improve and fix and polish. And now we're kind of coming full circle where some of the products that that we released together? it became bestsellers are now getting revised and updated a second time, you know, both in terms of say some things we're working on on other projects but also in terms of this top quilt, so It's interesting, this is kind of like our, we're gonna have a few of these over the next 12 months where we're really talking about revising, really top-selling, products, and products that are that are already doing well. So
[00:01:41] Tayson: it's like, I guess. So, that kind of begs the question, though. Why are we? Trying to improve something that's not broken. Yeah, no.
[00:01:50] Brigham: It's A fun. It's a it's a fun concept to talk about. And it's interesting. So the question is very like, it's a valid question that's like almost Timeless. Like, you hear that? Like, don't fix what's not broken or what, you know, whatever the phrase may be, but You know, if something is working so well. there's, A lot of times, there's a reason to justify or there's justification to just let it be and, and write it out. um, but it's I'd say. A bit. Contrary to kind of like my personal. Beliefs or take on. most things in life or like, whether it's life or gear or you know, whatever is just like it's got to be a way to find something to improve or progress or You know. and, and so with the top quilt, like you mentioned it is it
[00:03:03] Brigham: is one of our best selling products and it's it's been a great product, like, it's a really good piece of gear, and But I guess, I mean, to me, it kind of comes down to that as that. Got to be willing to accept that. We don't have Perfection. Like we haven't perfected anything. I think we're always trying to do our best. But then, over time. just like the greatest teacher and experience is the greatest teacher and and we always are learning things that we might be able to improve and so I think you know, not wanting to just rest easy and just For you know, 10 years and act like it's so so perfect. They're so good. That there's not anything to improve. Yeah. Just kind of presented an opportunity to To take a product that people do really like
[00:04:01] Brigham: so much. Try to improve it but do it in a way that doesn't. Deviate from what it was that people like so much or what works. So well. So, it's a challenge. It's a challenge thing, right? Yeah,
[00:04:18] Tayson: I think I think. You and I both resonate with this concept of like, if you're not growing, you're dying, you're not improving your sliding backwards. That's something that's really ingrained with me. If I've always believed that, I guess, just in terms of even business, like, it's like, you're always walking up and down escalator and the second, you stop walking. You're slowly coming back down and it's a good Mantra to have and makes a hard sometimes to like sit and be still and enjoy the present sometimes. But I think that like one of the things that popped into my mind actually. That's different from Outdoor Vitals here. For a minute is the Therm-a-Rest NeoAir XTherm pad or the Therm-a-Rest pad. Pad. I mean, that's one of those pads you're like, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And they didn't, for a
[00:05:06] Tayson: lot of years, they just continue to sell millions and millions of dollars of these pads, but they just came out with the NXT model. And that model is significantly better so much so that I actually now use. Because before it was too loud, it was too noisy. It wasn't thick enough and they were able to take these pads that they already had some improvements to the pad itself. And now now to me, it made a huge difference even though you could very well argue, like I said for years, like if you could give me one pad in the outdoor industry, you would be the Therm-a-Rest NeoAir XTherm product and so I think that that's the underlying concept is to improve it, but it does pose challenges because if you have something that's working, You can break it. And
[00:05:50] Tayson: and honestly we've we've seen small instances of that where we've improved a product, but it may be didn't sell as well after we improved it. Maybe build an understand it as well after we improved it. And so we are I think more mindful than ever of that. And I think the updates that we've done like their their non issues as far as like improving or hurting what people are already love about the pad or the bad, the top quilt.
[00:06:18] Tayson: so maybe let's just talk really briefly about what? What we feel like make made our last generation of this top quilt. Really good. And what we were sure not to touch. I guess or not to mess with. Yeah.
[00:06:34] Brigham: I, I think what just kind of made it work so well. You know, as a top quilt was that we The approach with our. Current almost to be. Now in the past top quilt was, is that we approached it from the, the ground sleeping. User as a post to a hammock top quilt user. So we wanted to make the top quilt, just easy to use and just Just as simple and easy to use, and have it work well for the person that's sleeping on the ground on a, you know, sleeping pad. So, that's what I think is the foundation of what makes it work so, well, is that it? It basically. Is able to. Prevent drafts from the side sleeper, the person, you know, moving around within the top quilt, just keep retaining. All the all of our heat when
[00:07:36] Brigham: we're laying in there and just kind of make it like a hassle-free, no fuss. Top quilt. So you get all the benefits of weight savings and compatibility of a top quilt. But You know, we've kind of eliminated those. Maybe potential drawbacks. Or even perceived. Drawbacks that people might think are going to happen with the top quilt but that's that's what I think. was such a strong point to that top quilt is just that it works so well and it was easy to use
[00:08:12] Tayson: and Yeah it did a good job like when we release that topquilt because we had a top quilt before this. So this is technically like our third generation of top quilt. Very first one, you know, very straight edges looked very very standard for what a hammock quilt I guess you would say like a lot of quilting, a lot of the quilts really generated from from hammocks driving that Ford in the beginning. And then people started taking them to the ground and start. Our first quilt really was built more for a hammock when we came out with this, this next Generation on that, we've had for the last couple of years. We saw some really big shifts one for the first time and Company history. A company that was started. With sleeping bags, started selling more top quilts than sleeping
[00:08:57] Tayson: bags and that was a big shift and a big shocker for us. Personally, I went from, you know, shifting back and forth between top quilts and sleeping bags. Almost every trip, you know just constantly shifting back and forth to me sleeping in a top quilt. 85 to 90% of the time and keep in mind too. Like I kind of need to experience all of what we sell. So I need to sleep in a sleeping bag or you know all so me and Brigham. And we backpack year round. So sometimes we're going into extremely cold situations, you know, negative degree temperatures. And so sometimes we'll go back to a maybe a sleeping bag in those situations. But what I found is instead of ping-ponging back and forth all the time, it's like, no, I'm I use a quilt 90% of the
[00:09:43] Tayson: time now because it was working so much better. Draft wise user, you know, like useability wise obviously, wait, compatibility things like that, but there's a big big shift that I saw happen and, and a lot of to in my mind was, you know, because we designed for the ground, it was the shape, it was the cut, it was you know some of these these finishes that really made a huge difference in, I would say having the width where we needed it, having it seal like almost Automatically like it kind of self seals easier. it a lot of that like, it was a huge shift that we saw in the last two years and See how we're building upon that, I
[00:10:29] Brigham: think? Yeah, I I think when you say like the self-sealing, Characteristic of it. I think that's I think that probably is. the single most, the single biggest factor that does that makes the topquilt do its job so well, and I don't think people some people realize it but I think it's probably under under state or underrated because The. Person using it doesn't have to do anything for that to for that design. Feature to work, right? So it's different than like, saying, oh we we include this piece of cordage, or this draw cord or this clip where the user physically does something, they clip a strap into a little buckle. And then that, you know, Situates the pad and then mentally they've realized. Okay? Now I've I've done this thing that gives me this benefit whereas Current top like the top
[00:11:36] Brigham: quilt design. How it's tapered. That just the physical shape of the quilt when it's laid flat. That creates a performance function just by its very design of just how it is laid out. So the person all they're doing when they do nothing more than just snap, you know, snap the collar together, which they would do on any quilt. The rest of all the rest falls into place and it it performs in a way that, like, you said itself seals, which means it it wraps around the user without the user, having to do anything to it. And that, you know, keeps the keeps the
[00:12:17] Tayson: person warm. Yeah, to give me a like an idea of the level that itself seals I I don't use pad straps with, with our top quilt and that's not It's not because a lot of people don't use pad straps, we do send two pad straps with every quilt. I know Brigham use pad straps but itself sells so well for me, That I almost never use pad straps because it just automatically falls under the body. So well and then also because it's so much wider. I can actually clip at least the lower Buckle under myself to itself without a pad strap. If it's cold and then that like really hugs the bag in and keeps it even warmer if I need that. And so if I am going to take a pad strap, I only ever even take one because it
[00:13:12] Tayson: again, it just kind of self seals. So well, so we're gonna obviously try to keep that self-sealing nature. In this new one was one of the goals. We did want to add another temperature rating, which we'll talk about here at the end and then there was, you know, a few other usability features that we thought hey we can maybe improve on this. But really, I would say The earliest conversations I would I would say that we started to have on some of this too was around the insulation itself. So let's let's dig heavily into the insulation because again Well we're
[00:13:48] Tayson: trying to build Outdoor Vitals is heavy performance focused products like we want them to work in the field. We want them to be able to go into more extreme situations. We want everyone who buys anything from us to have an extreme level of confidence in the product. And so we're going to do things like extreme tests that we're going to look for ways that we can make usability better. You know. Keep the weight down or as light as we possibly can, all of these kinds of things. And so sometimes there's different components that come into play and obviously in a top quilt, there's two main components, there's Fabric and there's insulation and So on that note, we've been using for years in insulation called HyperDRY, we've had tremendous results with HyperDRY in terms of durability of the DWR treatment
[00:14:38] Tayson: on the down and in terms of its actual repellency of water. But our down provider brought us A New Concept and said, hey, we're we're testing something that's brand. New fact. They even kind of requested us make samples and take it into the field because they know a little bit about us. And some of the trips that we Take and they want to us to pass back some feedback. But what do you remember as far as the first time we conversed with, with our down provider and how that conversation went and what they were what they're telling us about
[00:15:12] Brigham: things. Yeah, I want to say it was two, two years ago. Was interesting. No, it was, it was before that so it was It was, I mean, it was like right before. So there's a There's a supplier Expo that I've been going to the last, I think, three Falls and important and it's it's basic. It's it's it's heavily focused on like performance materials and fabrics, right? It's called Functional Fabric Fair and so, I was up there and I Saw our down supplier was there. So I had already planned on, you know, stopping by and saying, hi and just touching base and catching up and So, kind of our contact there, he said, hey, let me tell you about this this down, that we've been developing we're currently developing. And at that time like, It wasn't even like they couldn't even
[00:16:25] Brigham: say like, you know, we it's actually on the market now. It was still in the development stages, they had been developing it for, you know, a couple years and so they had some preliminary, you know, lab type testing and and results there. So he explained what it was and kind of the story in the background behind it and and why they wanted to develop it and it was really, really intriguing and so What was cool was that, you know, he he mentioned like okay, well yes we're developing this down but like we can't do it without this this technology, from this other biotechnology company. So he said, yeah I've got to take you over to this booth and have him meet these guys because they're, they're the ones actually developing the technology that were putting into this down. So it
[00:17:17] Brigham: was a really cool Converse conversation and I was really intrigued by what he described. So, And then, you know, from there I think it was like, the next month we went to the ispo show and because you were to important. And so then I'm like, yeah, we got to go talk to these guys. We connected them at, remember going in with their booth in Germany. Kind of the same thing and then got a
[00:17:41] Tayson: energy drink from him. You're really happy.
[00:17:43] Brigham: Yeah. You sell them in Germany. So, I mean already, these guys are on my good side. but, Yeah. So I mean it's I mean this is a couple years back
[00:18:00] Tayson: and in history where and what was the preliminary things they're telling us about it essentially one of the aspects because they're they're very responsible company was like, okay it's It's chemical free. It's a recycled material that we're embedding. It's and it's permanent. Right? Yeah. So like those are like three really big things for them that they wanted but then they're, you know, we're talking about the performance side. And essentially to skip ahead, a little bit of what this is. I guess what they're doing is they have this biotech company. That was Reclaiming, gold recycled gold out of electronics. Melting it down and then zapping and this is going to sound crazy, but we did tour the facility and see this in person. They then zap the gold with a laser to create nanoparticles. Put that into a solution and then
[00:18:58] Tayson: they're able to adhere that in terms of like parts per million to the down. And that that that that then had has some Downstream effects. As far as what that means. And what they're telling us at this point was dry times were drastically improving. And I remember them also talking a little bit about like the ability for it to reflect back. I thought actually thought about this on my last trip you remember them talking about like the ability to reflect back and potentially boost blood
[00:19:31] Brigham: oxygen levels. But yeah I mean and they're They're pretty good about kind of separating like what what they tangibly can like see in actual results. And then just kind of, you know, some plausible other benefits that make sense if they can be explained in a way that makes sense and is very likely to be real. um, but like, you know, the So that they kind of they give us all of that. And so, you know, and and they're they're clear and good about, you know, saying like Okay yeah, this is like confirmed testing and then these other benefits is like they probably are there but we just can't really You know, what's the state that is fact, you know, we'll have to talk off air and pass an information back to them
[00:20:23] Tayson: on the blood oxygen thing from my last trip. Because But in terms of dry time, that was kind of the big thing. And essentially, the idea that they're saying is Hey, look down. Inherently is like, doesn't want water to adhere to it, right? I mean, you look at a duck, like a duck doesn't just sink when they touch water, like it has its own ability to shed moisture to some extent, and that's why there's some companies out there. Some purist companies out there, I believe it's Mountain. Hardwear Mountain. Oh my gosh. Feathered Friends. Is that the one and one of them out there, like they refused to use any treated down because they believe that down has the inherent properties to shed moisture. And stay fully lofted because if you're coding, it in something you are losing some fill power
[00:21:16] Tayson: out of Virgin down. So there's some there's some really interesting inherent abilities of down and then we take it typically and we're coating it in DWR. So, for like, the last decade, it's been like, what, what are we coating it in? What kind of a DWR coating? Is it a water base is a wax based? What brand is it what, you know, all these kinds of things to see, what kind of performance benefits we can get out there to solve the problem of, what if you're down gets wet? What if what if you lose Loft because of this? And so what they are saying is, hey, look down already has all these properties. but, What we, what we're seeing with this treatment that we're putting on it. Does nano-gold is that it is boosting dry time. and in a
[00:21:59] Tayson: scenario or you're going into conditions where you're introducing, a lot of humidity, high humidity day, after day, humidity maybe some moisture on the bag day after day, after day that they're seeing that say on day five that this product would be more dry and be more lofted than even some of the DWR treatments. Keep in mind this is a company that has their own, you know, treatments and DWR treatments. It's not like they're the stock. They're saying like we have a better solution than those guys. They're saying, we have a better so that we think we have a better solution than what we already manufacture ourselves, right?
[00:22:36] Brigham: Yeah. yeah, so and the other kind of thing to keep in mind for context is so down as an insulation, whether it's been treated or not treated at all, Over think about a. Let's think about Seven night. Backpacking trip. In a semi humid environment where maybe four of those days it rains and every single one of those days you the backpack or your sweating. so every single day you set up your tent, Blow up your pads, you throw your quilt in the tent and then at some point, you get in. There you go to bed. Let's say you go to bed, 100% dry. Your clothes are totally dry. Throughout the night, your body is emitting moisture that is entering into the insulative chambers of that quilt or sleeping bag. That's going to be different from one person to another. But
[00:23:44] Brigham: 100% fact is moisture is getting into that sleeping bag. So whether it's treated or not, the moisture is there. That's like best case scenario, worst case scenario is you get in your, you know, whatever shorts or pants you wearing, you, you decide to, to sleep in those and like you got done hiking five minutes ago, so your your sweaty. So your your bottles are sweating your shirts. Sweaty your skin may be sweaty. You get in the quilt or sleeping bag. So all that moisture from your body heat starts to kind of dry out, but that now enters your your quilt and then your body moisture throughout the night is emitted into the quilt. And let's say it all so rained, or is raining at the time you get in to your tent. now that's a high humidity environment, tons of
[00:24:38] Brigham: condensation within the tent so you've got Maximum moisture from you and your clothing, inside the quilt, maximum humidity, some condensation, maybe your your foot box is brushing up against the bottom of the tent or whatever. So now you have a lot of moisture inside. That that quilt. Well, inside you, have you have an itinerary, you've got seven more days of hiking so you get up in the morning. you grab your quilt, you stuff it in the stuff stuff sack or you stuff it in the bottom of your pack, you take your tent down, you hiked your next destination and you repeat that six or seven nights in a row Well, what happens is every single day that you do that without introducing any external drying Factor. Like let's I'm saying you have not had the opportunity throughout the day to
[00:25:36] Brigham: take your quilt out for 30 minutes in a nice dry air with the sun beating down on. so, every single day, when you pull that quilt out, it has
[00:25:47] Brigham: lost some level of Insulated value may not be perceivable or it may be but after say five nights, you may be have lost 10 to 30% of the loft of your quilt and that occurs, whether you've got treated down or not treated down because you have no external factors drying out. The down insulation within that quilt. So that's kind of best case worst case scenario. And you know,
[00:26:23] Tayson: I'll add one more element to worst case of that, is that condensation from your tent like, Depending on where you're at, what you're doing the amount of groundwater you know water just in the soil in the ground foilage. You know all of that like you can get a lot of condensation in a tent even in a two-layer tent. Like you're not you're not impervious to the amount of just extreme condensation your own breath breathing. Like you're getting condensation, right? Where you're breathing on top of your bag to moisture. And then, you know, to just add to that. So then you're putting your bag away, your bumping your tent, just a little bit, or you've got that moisture up by your where your face was, and you're repackaging that and Hiking all day, right? So, There's lots of ways to introduce
[00:27:06] Tayson: moisture or some level of moisture to your back. Yeah
[00:27:09] Brigham: but I think best case scenario, there's no way to avoid moisture being inside your quilt like that's the best case. Worst case is like you get a ton of moisture in there because you've been in worst case, humidity and moisture levels for five days. Um, but either way, you lose some insulated value, you know, maybe 10 to 30% over a week over four or five days. So, With. let's say previous technology or, you know, last generation water, repellency treatments whether that's A, you know, the HyperDRY product that we've used, you know, which is a wax-based product, other more chemical-based products. There's no external Factor working to dry out that down whether it's stuffed in a stuff sack or laid out on top of your pad. And so, Yeah, maybe a treated down dries, a little bit faster than an untreated
[00:28:16] Brigham: down. But that treatment it is a temporary treatment. It wears off. After some period of time. It is not permanent and it's really not very long lasting relative to the life cycle of down quilt, like a down quilt can last like 20 years. Like if you take care of it and you wash it and you maintain it and, you know, you're not careless like A quilt should last a user like 20 years, like, it's a very long-term product that performs at a high level for that level of time. So that, that, that that DWR treatment of the down is, very short-lived compared to the life cycle of the product. So You've got this introduction of a few variables that are potentially problematic or if nothing else an opportunity to improve upon which is kind of where our down supplier. That's
[00:29:13] Brigham: their approach is like. We already have an outstanding DWR treated down very proven, very proven across the industry and within our own product line. But there's things they can do to improve it and they want it to really focus on that repeated real world application of the degradation of your insulation over time. So,
[00:29:38] Tayson: and let me I want to interject just two quick things here. I will say this. Number one. I think when you first get into backpacking and you learn that down can fail due to moisture, it becomes an irrational fear. And so you start to be like, why I have to just protect my down to an extreme level all the time. I mean, I, I remember kind of going through different phases over the last decade where slowly my irrational fear of down failing, because of moisture became less, and less, and less. And Only takes like one guy to say one crazy story where you don't have any of the other details where you're like, oh see, clearly it can happen. You know, this guy was river rafting and his dad got wet and then he told me froze, the rest of
[00:30:21] Tayson: the time. And it's like, yeah, but what are all the other details? Why was it not in a dry bag? Why? You know how like are you keeping up on any level of DWR? What are the other conditions? What are, you know? So Many Factors, but that'll like, in, in plant in your mind and then you start to like the more and more you go out the more, you're like, how would my products? Like, how would my down be introduced to a ton of moisture? I don't mean a little bit of moisture. I mean, like, To to fully saturate down. And to the point of failure is an extremely, extremely difficult thing to do. I mean go try to wash your down product and a top loading washer. And you are down will float on the top of the water
[00:31:02] Tayson: for an entire cycle and you can do that three four times and your product will just sit on the top of the water, right? Yeah. There's a video out there. Remember seniors, go or Nikwax like put a human in a sleeping bag and floating them on the water, right? And that has has little to nothing to do. I feel like with actually like Nikwax is a product that's everything to do with like the characteristics of down. Yeah, it's really hard to get moist. I can remember like my first time I went to Alaska. I had this irrational fear that, like we're clear out in the middle of nowhere. No one's coming to save us. We were flown in on a plane and dropped off. And I was like, okay well like what do I like do I? Should
[00:31:41] Tayson: I bring A hybrid LoftTek sleeping bag that we had or should I bring it down sleeping bag and I ended up taking the LoftTek one because there's still so many new things about it and I was just like, but that was like, how is this even gonna get wet? And I was like, well, maybe if a grizzly bear came in, destroyed my tent looking for something inside my tent. And then before I got back to my tent, it rained you know, like and you're just like this is the most ridiculous hypothetical right situation. I can think of. Right. So you so that irrational fear starts to dissipate but So let's talk about like the real rational side of what I've seen. Well, we've been on trips personally. I've been on trips where High humid environments raining. Snowing, you're
[00:32:24] Tayson: getting into your bag wet every day and I have personally no problem getting into even our last generation with HyperDRY right now into that top quilt wet and trying to dry out my morning. But the caveat is I find that to fully dry out. You've got to have like very adequate warmth inside the top quilt to the point where you're almost like sweating, which means that there's still moisture somewhere in that quilt. And so, what would happen is that even though I had full trust in the down, you basically start to say, okay, well if I expect it to get to 25 degrees and it to be this level of warmth, I'm gonna take a 15 degree bag because it'll be more than warm enough to dry things out and to move some of that that moisture out of the
[00:33:13] Tayson: bag and to dry some clothes out and things. But I always knew that that just like Brigham already mentioned the down starts to degrade or
[00:33:21] Tayson: lose Loft by say 10, 15 20% as the trip went on. Usually, I don't know that I ever felt like, I lost more than 20%, but 20% is significant. When you're on say day five of a crazy, humid, crazy, rainy, crazy, snowy trip, or if you're through hiker, right here on the AT like it rains a lot and you're going day after day after day after day. And that down will lose will lose Loft. And I mean, in situations, where through hikers, you start to introduce a high probability of things like mold micro-mold, losing Loft, because of things like this. So, so anyways, in real world conditions I had a lot of faith in the DWR treatments. I use them in extreme situations a lot, but I knew that the down was going to start to lose some
Editor’s note: The moisture, loft-loss, and temperature-margin figures in this complete run are the speakers’ September 2024 field observations and estimates, not a universal performance guarantee.
[00:34:10] Tayson: of its Loft in terms of 10 20, and it wouldn't be as warm as as day one. So, I just kind of wanted to paint that picture because Like the other down. It's not that it was like not functioning or not working or is a hazard but that's what like a real world situation. I feel like looks like and what it looks like to lose some of that Loft day after day. Yeah so
[00:34:33] Brigham: that and that so that kind of presents You know, touching base with the question of like, well, what's their to improve? So it's probably good to just pull those things. Like, let's Point those things out, so we already had a great treated down. So what, what is there for, you know, Allied Feather + Down? Who's our down Supply, or with this down technology, what like, what's there to improve? Well, again, that treatment is Temporary, it will eventually wear out. And they also said, well, we can improve. like, How fast it dries how consistently and repeatably it? Dries. And do that permanently. So that's that's that's that's where that was their approach. And, and that's what they set out to set out to accomplish while doing it in a like, I would say as close to harmless. Like zero environmental impact, as could
[00:35:37] Brigham: possibly be done. So meaning. They're historically in like in textiles and different performance properties and treatments that are associated with those. There has their their already are like mineral treatments. There's different minerals that provide certain reactions and things. So silver is one for example, silver has been used for decades as an anti-microbial but we'll kind of get into this in a little bit but however, the silver, the the process that that silver has been let's say exploited or manipulated to provide the performance characteristic that Has been sought after for the last 40 years, really? It still has a chemical impact. kind of a chemical byproduct or more, harmful effect than Than 0, let's say, but this company called FUZE Biotech, who developed the technology that is applied to ExpeDRY, which is what we're using in the top quilt. Which is
[00:36:50] Brigham: a nanoparticulate gold. They have been able to do that in a non-chemical way. So they I am not a chemist at all the way they explain it. Is that is a non ionized or a non-ionic. chemical particulate and that is an important designation because Because of that non-ionized characteristic. It does not have any chemical effect. Chemical byproduct chemical waste and it is not and therefore is not subject. Like it's inherently not subjected to chemical regulations because there are no chemical processes. To to harvest this, this gold particle and apply it. So it's, it's like an FDA approved product and it's it's like 100% environmentally clean. And like there's some weird anecdotal, you know, tidbits to that, we can mention there but like it's incredibly clean. So they wanted to attack to tackle improving down, they came up with a
[00:38:08] Brigham: permanent solution that Once this is applied, once this product is applied to down, consider it permanent it is. It is permanently mechanically bonded within microscopic structures of a Down cluster or a down fiber that cannot just be washed out. and then, What it also does is it introduces now? A, an external factor or an external process within the down that actively helps dry the down. Okay. So whereas With say a treated down, that is subjected to moisture for five days or whatever. and there are external factors meaning whether that's applied heat, whether that's from the body or the sun radiation, from the Sun, or warm air blown across it or Just the movement of air. Those are all external factors that. Induce the process of the down drying out. But if those factors don't exist, nothing is happening
[00:39:21] Brigham: on that down to make it dry out. So, nothing is taking place that will dry that down out. With this. Gold application in ExpeDRY. The gold—and these are microscopic nanoparticulate levels of gold, right? So they're, they're They're like molecules. Okay. So It basically, vibrate. Any water molecule around it. And it breaks up the water molecule. So if you break up the atoms, within a Molecule, you no longer have water. so, Essentially it vibrates water molecules until they're no longer water molecules and that's that's the active drying process that that takes place. Regardless of the condition. So whether it's sunny cloudy, humid, whether you're sleep, whether it's just laying there on the ground, or bunched up that process is constantly taking place. It's not dependent on any external source of heat or air movement. So that's what's
[00:40:34] Brigham: remarkable about it. And that's, you know and and the fact that that will always be there you know, the whole time you have your top quilt, I think that's that's the big advancement and that's kind of like That's the next step in in, in managing and treating our down. Yeah. So that just to say that a
[00:40:58] Tayson: second wave because it's a bit scientific, right? That this goal is essentially Wheeking weakening the hydrogen bond and keeping the. The so does kind of two things if both keeps water from forming droplets. And it also takes droplets and helps weaken them to the point where they are they can come back into more of a vapor form, right? So what that means is that the down either doesn't adhere or allow the moisture to get trapped in it to begin with or that it helps to vaporize it so that it can move out of the product because imagine this, you're sweating, you essentially turn water into a vapor form it passes through the first layer of your quilt. Before it gets all the way to the other layer. The other, the outer fabric of your quilt. It gets colder and colder
[00:41:50] Tayson: and condenses into a droplet. And now you've got moisture trapped between the two layers of your, your down, or your top quilt. And, and then, that's where you start to see. Like, well if it forms into a droplets starts to have some weight to it and starts to lose loft. And so this down, this gold, essentially, excites it keeps it in a vapor form or helps to turn into a vapor form easier so that it can more fully dry or just keep it from getting wet to begin with. And just like Brigham says that the amazing thing about it is 100% consistency because you're not losing, you know, any kind of you're not losing gold, as it goes on. It's a permanent effects. So like how it acts on day one is how it's going to act on day 100,
[00:42:33] Tayson: so it's just complete consistency
[00:42:36] Brigham: as well across the board. So, and the cool thing about it is, like, like that function. It's always taking place, so, think about What used to dry out your treated down, like, say your body heat or sun. Well, that doesn't stop working. Like, that's so now you've now almost doubled. When those factors are are in place. Like now you've now you've doubled the the processes that are going to dry out or keep the down dry, so it's not like a one-for-one ones, replacing the other. The gold is always working. but now, If you are sleeping in it, it's going to dry out even faster. You lay it out in the open air, it's going to dry out, even faster. You put some sun on it. It's going to dry out immensely faster. So it's it's a really cool, you know,
[00:43:29] Brigham: just kind of like Like almost exponential it just Builds on itself and just the drying process and the and the process that keeps it dry as well is is kind of The Snowball Effect.
[00:43:41] Tayson: So let's shift gears to. All right. This is the idea, this is the science. This is what we're being told. Let's take it out into the field any stories or examples of You know, how you've seen or what? You feel like you've seen in the field in real world testing?
[00:43:57] Brigham: Yeah. So I mean, like you said, they at the time they were, it was being developed and they were very proactive in asking that we make samples and get it out into the field and just and test it. And just How to get experience with it because they had, you know, they had lab data, but but they didn't have a lot of field data. So that's what we did. We already had a great top quilt to fill it with so we we just made top quilts. And filled it with this new down and then just took it to the field and I one of the first I can't remember but it's it's been a while. But like one of the first trips I planned I specifically tried to plan like I want to say it was like a early to
[00:44:50] Brigham: mid spring, backpacking trip in the mountains. Which, which meant lots of Heavy wet snow because like the snow doesn't melt them out here till June. So if you go backpacking in April in like northern Utah your your on top of six feet of snow and Most precipitation is going to fall in the form of like sleet or maybe some snow, maybe some rain. So it's just a really damp humid environment. So, I just did a multi-day trip in there where it was just constantly, It actually rained and snowed the whole time. So it was it was just going back and forth from rain to snow and rain to snow. If it'd get over like 40 degrees it would it would it would rain if it got below 40 degrees, it would snow. And so I was doing this on. Snowshoes.
[00:45:45] Brigham: So it's just like, I really wanted to kind of make it a miserable in terms of moisture management that type of trip where you just sweating because it's There's no efficient way to walk in the snow or travel in the snow. So, body moisture was off the charts environmental. You know, precip was constant and then when you get in a tent and your sweaty, your gears wet that creates a really, really humid environment within the tent and then Yeah, just kind of subjected to a lot of moisture. A lot of humidity. and, This is very subjective. Obviously it's not a lap test, it's a field test. But what I was looking for, was any degradation in like how warm my quilt us, you know? And and I was very happy to see you know on that first trip that man,
[00:46:38] Brigham: it doesn't seem like it's lost any Loft at all. It seems like. Just as dry and lofty as it was day one, when I took it out of the out of the dry sack. So that was a very positive first experience and then like that was close to two years. Yeah, year and a half ago. And I and I use that specific quilt for like every trip. That I ever have been on so dozens and dozens of nights. You know, abuse. With just that specific one, we made more of it. Yeah.
[00:47:20] Tayson: Yeah. I mean an experience that I just had to kind of outline the same thing and special specifically trying to like tell the difference is of what I've seen to. What I saw in this product was I went and did my 100 mile hike this year in the Wind Rivers. And if you know anything about the Wind Rivers, they're extremely wet, there's 1,300 named lakes in the Wind Rivers, which I looked up and, but everywhere I went, there's there's water in the ground at snowed and rained the day before I got or the day that I got there. There's tons of water in the ground from that. But then, there's just like I said, there's got to the point where I like, I feel like I was passing 20, Lakes a day, I just couldn't even. I just gave up
[00:48:03] Tayson: trying to even remember any names of lakes, except for the really big ones. So but I was also having to hike, 25 miles a day and what that means is that I was getting up at before the sun as my alarm would go off. Like 6:20, I'd get up pack up my bag and put it in a dry bag. So, whatever comment, you know, moisture is in it, is there all day and then I'd get to the tent and unpack it, but it was so wet. I mean, it was just so wet and then and then when I get to camper, I'd be getting the camper. Like I'd be setting camp at dark. So I'm going from straight from hiking sweating, what? Not straight into my tent and there was so much condensation in the area that Literally the tent
[00:48:47] Tayson: was it was just dripping like there's just no like there is so much and and because I wasn't having time to dry out my tent in the day. I would roll out the tent at the end of the night. And I mean, the floor would be wet because if the fly is wet, then you smash it all up and pack it away. Then, everything in there is getting wet essentially. So my tent is is wet from the start of the night till tons amount of condensation in the morning. And so, like a specifically, when I'm packing away, my top quilt in the morning, I would even know. I was wiping the tent. I'd be getting droplets falling onto the quilt and then immediately eating that packed up or I'd have like, my balaclava is like bumping against the tent or something.
[00:49:30] Tayson: As I'm putting away my pad and and all that and then I'm putting that in with my top quilt as well. So there's an extreme amount of moisture there was getting inside the quilt from my own sweat, getting on the outside of the quilt. And I'd say It was a very real life, real life stress test for it. and what I found the most interesting or notable was that After a few hours in the quilt, the quilt would be fully dry like in the night, right? The quill would be fully dry and fully lofted—to the point where I was like, starting to like overheat and sweat inside of the bag, and I'd have to like start venting it. And then every morning, you know, obviously be waking up and the quilt would be fully lofted. Like 100% loft is
[00:50:19] Tayson: how I felt then I'd like get moisture on as I'm packing everything away and pull it out at night inside of a wet tent. It'd get moisture on it and you can tell it was like, it would, it had gone down a little bit. Let's say, 10% 15%. I'd be in the quilt. A couple hours. Boom. It's back to 100% 100% all night long. And the same thing and it didn't matter if it was day one day, four, that quilt was getting a complete and full reset, every time I would sleep in it from just my body heat, it would dry thoroughly and completely. So that on day four of this trip, I didn't have that 10 to 20% degradation of the down. It was just this very notable full reset every single night and to me that was like
[00:51:02] Tayson: such an excellent use case. Or example, case of exactly what we've seen in the ExpeDRY down. And why we feel like it is the, the superior product now and why we're putting it into our top quilt. It's just that daily repeatable, consistency factor, and the fact that you're getting back to 100% loft, you're not getting back to 90% Loft. Yeah. Or 85% loft or fill in the blank? Yeah.
[00:51:31] Brigham: yeah, and The. What really matters is like. the performance in the field and, you know, I was telling somebody just the other day about this. It's like yeah. it's very hard to like, Evaluate something in the field. at a, at a very minute level of comparison or to have like the ability to say, like, Oh yeah, there is a noticeable or visible difference in XYZ? so, when when we test things in the field, when we use things, we want to evaluate or kind of come, make a judgment on something and feel that it, it's almost like it has to be, like, a macro type of assessment of like, Number one, did it do its job? Did it work? Well, did it function? Well and then number two is like Did we do, do we see? a difference in the positive
[00:52:36] Brigham: direction and that's probably about as detailed as like realistically, a person can get And so like 100%, that's that's what we found over, you know, 18 months of exclusive use with this down in our sleep systems. And then, of course, like there are cool, lab charts, and data that back, all of this up in every scenario. So, like and what the what Allied or they call like a complete saturation, that's that means the down. Is completely saturated like in a laundry environment. So however many cycles it takes to actually completely overwhelm and saturate the down in a laundry machine. And flatten it.
[00:53:27] Brigham: That is like the ultimate complete Force failure of the down, right? Apples apples comparing, you know, DWR down to this down. This down still dries faster than a DWR treated down. including, Their own best DWR treated down. So like even in like forced fabricated scenarios that are you know just as close to the what ifs, this happens scenarios like in every Test it it's performing better in terms of lab results as well. So I mean those things are they're great to quote and their their useful. But, you know, combine that with what we see in actual real world use and then We've just been really excited about it so
[00:54:25] Tayson: lab testing, I was just looking at it again yesterday and it definitely again seems to shine more and more and more when they did some repeat it testing kind of back to back. Testing you again see the ExpeDRY. Not only beat it like really start to to step up and exceed expectations. So yeah. So overall this down product is is superior and long lasting and chemical free and all these kinds of things. And so we're we're really ecstatic about it. I'm I'm really impressed with that. I've, we've been impressed with it for a really long time. To us, it brings another level of confidence into going into the backcountry. And and there's, there's a couple other things that I'll note on, as far as just moisture, moisture management, when I get to the end of this and talk a
[00:55:18] Tayson: little bit about, like our specific, top quilt, and what's sent with it. But I think, as long as, as we're talking about real world situations, this thing has proven itself, time, and time, and time again for us. And I've been really, really happy with it. So, Let's shift gears a little bit and talk about some of the other aspects that we tweaked and reconfigured and messed with,
Editor’s note: The ExpeDRY supplier explanations, lab and saturation testing, superiority, longevity, chemical-free characterization, comparative dry-time claims, and repeated field-proof statements in this complete run reflect supplier information and Outdoor Vitals’ September 2024 understanding; consult current product documentation for current specifications.
[00:55:41] Tayson: on this top quilt to try to improve it. And let's, let's kind of go to the the cut taper and and then into the baffles per se. So one thing about our, our top quilt is that that we we believe that the, the cut and the taper of it and taper means, like, You know, how it's narrowing down to the foot to the foot section of it or narrowing up to the neck section of it which is a big part of what we think. Makes our quilt work so well as its widest right? And the shoulder and the belly area per se. But most people keep it that wide all the way up to the top and and we actually narrow that back down near the neck section and that that complete cut their Is that really? What? What I,
[00:56:28] Tayson: you know what offers that self-sealing ability of quilt. So in regards to the, the cut of the quilt, what did we try to improve? What did we change? In terms of those dimensions? Yeah.
[00:56:44] Brigham: really, it just What we did. And why we did it came from just being very aware of why our current top quilt worked so well, which is The way it does tapered towards the towards the top Edge or the, the collar area of the quilt. And kind of asking the question of like, hmm. What if we made that more dramatic? And Are there any? Issues that arise from how it currently is. So, there is, there is an area that I found like could be improved because if you take if you lay out the top quilt, flat, So it's almost like, let's say above the footbox or from the footbox up. That's laid flat. That's kind of like a two-dimensional object now. It's just flat. Well now if you put a three-dimensional object inside of that Um and then you
[00:57:43] Brigham: you snap the collar together as it wraps around. Where it snaps together is actually going to. Fall a little bit lower below the person, then the collar is above them. So as I if I'm laying on my back and this is laying over the top of me and I snap behind my neck. It's gonna kind of be like down towards the base of my neck or the top of my shoulders. So then when you turn on your side there's the potential for Where that snaps together to be a bit of an impediment or it just is not in the an ideal position. Because if you're sleeping on your side, maybe now, if it kind of gets under the shoulder and that's just the nature of having a straight across, a straight edge at the at the caller, So kind of
[00:58:46] Brigham: asked question, what if we made the taper even more? Dramatic towards the top, but added basically, so it curves down towards the middle and set of being a straight across Edge. Um, and experimented with that. Because we know the the taper towards the top Edge works. Well we know it works, it basically forces the quilt to wrap around the body and self-seal. So if we make that taper extend even farther a couple inches, Towards the top, but add a curve. Along the top Edge in a straight edge. Now it's almost as if those top corners. That continue to taper. Those are almost just like extensions, so then when we go to wrap, it around our neck and snap it in the back that snap hits just naturally where we want it to in the void between our head and our
[00:59:52] Brigham: shoulders, and it's not getting in the way and we can move side to side more freely. But That more dramatic taper. It just improves the force or the natural wrap of the quilt around our shoulders, but it does it and it eliminates excess. There was even kind of the ability to like, well, we, we just notice like, you know, if we, if we close up the collar, Then that means we're trying to block. You know, we're trying to close that area up so it doesn't make sense and this is why we did it in the first in the current top quilt. It doesn't make sense to have that full width. Because all that means is like, that's just a big opening that you're going to have to cinch down anyway. So that's kind of the main purpose is for what
[01:00:50] Brigham: we did with the tape. We made it more dramatic. We made it more extend farther into the corners. So it's a little bit narrower straight line from corner to corner. But it's above the shoulder where it's just empty space but it does. Close up way more naturally and in more convenient way it's it's noticeably easier to just grab the corners and snap it behind your behind your neck. Whether you're on your side or on your back and it just seals even better. Now, I would say is kind of like, that's, that's the point. It seals even better and there's less space to cinch up. When you do decide to use the the draw cord to cinch up around the neck.
[01:01:39] Tayson: Yeah, I would put that in layman's terms a little bit more, I would say. It's easier to do the button behind your neck now because there's more material more space there. and, Then it just offers more of an ability to a little bit easier. Ability to seal around the neck area. And then it still Falls in line with what made our last quote so good, which is, you know, that that same self-sealing, you know, type of edge that we already had on it. So, That was the biggest note. There are like if you lay the quilts on top of each other so there's a little bit more. I don't want to say sharp edges but less like gradual rounded edges as we really Target, specific areas. To make sure we have the absolute amount of width we want in
[01:02:28] Tayson: this area in this area so that it doesn't get a little bit too tight on the shoulders or a little bit too tight here, but then keeping the same general self-sealing feeling and Cocoon feeling that work that we're going for here. We also changed up the baffles a little bit. This is our third round. I would say of me mixing up the baffles a little bit. So what did we do this time with the baffles? And why
[01:02:58] Brigham: so, On the current top quilt. And the updated the new top quilt at the footbox, the baffles are horizontally arranged. That's a small. It works really well because that's a small area in the footbox. It's not a really wide distance of those baffles and then the the current generation top quilt from the footbox up, it goes to Long vertically oriented. Chambers and they're kind of split across the middle into, you know, two two.
[01:03:37] Tayson: So, they can't move down from just above the foot box all the way to the head and without hitting a baffle so it can't shift as fully. That was our last one.
[01:03:47] Brigham: Yep. So with the updated one, we have. On the sides on the far, outer edges, mostly the area that's going to be wrapped around and tucked under. The body, we kept two chambers that are vertically oriented that have that same, you know, they're kind of cut in half. Halfway up the length but across basically what what lies directly above or directly on top and slightly around the body. We've we've changed that to horizontally oriented Chambers all the way to the top. and it's, it's a pretty Well, I inches. I'm not sure, but it's, it's basically just like what's right on top of and and around you. Um, and it makes it one really easy. If there is any downshifting because there's always downshifting, regardless makes it really easy. To redistribute and shift that. And it's also just kind of a
[01:04:55] Brigham: short distance that you may have to adjust it at all. Anyway, and it, which is kind of nice because if, if somebody, actually, maybe does feel like oh maybe Maybe after I took this out of the stuff sack, there was kind of this dead spot here or there you can really Target that easily and and redistribute and get a really nice even Loft. You know, head to toe. I found that it just makes that whole thing. More streamlined easier to manage and more consistent throughout the quilt.
