[00:00:00] Tayson: Everybody, welcome back to the Live Ultralight Podcast, powered by Outdoor Vitals. Today, we're doing a new format of episode that we hope to implement in 2025, where it's simply a AMA. Ask me, anything, or a Q&A style or me and Brigham are just gonna come on the podcast. And answer questions that we see getting forwarded to us or being marked down by our customer connection team. So, today, that's the whole format of this whole thing is, we're just gonna simply dive into questions that have been written in to Outdoor Vitals. Now, if you guys want to write in your own questions in the future, just write them right into our customer support team and just
[00:00:37] Tayson: tag, you know, say right in a is a question for the podcast, I'd really like Tayson or Brigham some advice on this particular thing and we'll answer that live on the show as they come in. Now we do have a bit of a backlog on some of these questions. So we're just randomly selecting three or four questions to talk through today and dive into, but I really have been enjoying these format of podcasts lately. I think that it provides a lot of insight and value to just go straight into answering questions from from users of products in the fields. So, while these questions will be geared towards, you know, people's trips and questions about trips
[00:01:17] Tayson: and execution of trips and things like that. Some of them will be more tailored to our own product line. So we'll kind of mix those up as they As well. But over, that's a good overview of what this is. But again, it’s the Live Ultralight Podcast, powered by Outdoor Vitals. Usually on here, we're going to talk about different trips that we do designing gear product, deep beds, all sorts of things like that. So if you're new to the show, there's a little bit of background But be sure to go check out a few, you know, past episodes as well. With that introduction, though, Brigham is our product designer. Brigham, how are you doing today?
[00:01:52] Brigham: Doing well, yep.
[00:01:54] Tayson: Anything exciting in your life right now?
[00:02:00] Brigham: Well yeah, I'm heading out this weekend on a trip. gonna be cold and Supposed to snow actually tomorrow mostly day. So that'll be interesting and
[00:02:10] Tayson: perfect conditions to be. Yeah. And Another trip.
[00:02:17] Brigham: I think next weekend as well. So, Yep, making the most of it.
[00:02:25] Tayson: Yeah, it's um, it's been freezing, freezing cold and Southern Utah. The past week or so. Myself and Derek, our marketing director. When did a trip in Coyote Gulch—I mean Buckskin Gulch and just a massive Slot Canyon here. So, in Utah, and it was really cold. We had to cross Frozen, not frozen anymore. We had to break through ice and cross. Some And then it got down colder than I expected. So, actually, like one of the colder nights, testing some new pads, and some new gear. tested that new the new pad from Therm-a-Rest, the, the NeoAir Loft, Which looks to be a very, very interesting pad, 4.6 inches thick with a very nice, like comfortable stretching
[00:03:18] Tayson: top and I think it's 4.7 R-value right in that range. So really incredible Pad but we, I pretty sure I didn’t have a thermometer on me but based off of talking to someone at the trailhead that did have a thermometer probably got down into the single digits. And it was a little too much for that pad to handle. So I'll keep testing that Pad but Shows a lot of promise and they just released him like we've, we've only been able to sail on starting in January. So I know both me and bring him. Pick one up pretty quick and are excited to test it, but it's been cold enough, but I think it's the
[00:03:56] Tayson: wrong time of year to be testing that boy. It's like, yeah, I
[00:03:59] Brigham: picked up me as well and But I'm not, I have no intention of using that on, you know, a winter trip where it's going to be single digits. It's not
[00:04:09] Tayson: He I wouldn't say rated for that. No, it's I can tell you firsthand. It's sorry. Yeah. I thought I was gonna be in the teens and I thought it would push the pad a little bit, but Therm-a-Rest is typically always been so good with there are values that I thought. I'm a teens, it would still probably be okay, but I was not expecting single digits so that I got to me. But thankfully, I have the one-eighth-inch foam pad that we make, and I put that on top of it. And that that really took the edge off putting it right against my body and allowed me to get kind of the last few hours of
[00:04:45] Tayson: sleep. I was able to to get some decent sleep there but Buckskin. Gulch was incredible. So anyways, that's our world in a nutshell. We've got some some, pretty awesome, I guess if there's any other house.
Editor’s note: The NeoAir Loft pad dimensions, R-value, January availability, single-digit testing, foam-pad result, and OV product plans describe January 2025 products and personal field experience—not current specifications, ratings, availability, or a universal cold-weather recommendation.
[00:04:59] Tayson: Pieces. A couple other things to note will be releasing sign ups for the OV 100 Mile Challenge starting at the very first of February so it's going to be right around the corner or maybe at the same time as the launch of this. So be on the lookout for that. We do have a sale for backpack happening in February so you're gonna see which backpack we're thrown on sale but As far as any other housekeeping items, we just finished up a Skyline Jacket sale. So, yeah, make sure you're on our email list. Make sure you've moved that into your main inbox so that you see when we do any kind of sales or at least any
[00:05:36] Tayson: kind of content videos, podcasting, things like that. Okay, keep you in the loop better. So, With that, though, these are meant to be shorter podcast episodes. So really, we're just gonna answer, three, four questions per episode on this, and we'll kind of see where the the tangents take us. But we'll try to keep it pretty concise, and pretty on point here. So, we'll say, I mean, like you mention, this is kind of a new
[00:06:04] Brigham: additional format for us. like, We're having to respond. So yeah, I would just encourage anyone listening to write in with questions, you know. And don't, if, if we take on more, Trip related questions are more gear related questions. Like that's that's all great on our side and yeah. So don't hesitate to send in questions and like you know, that if there's an increased demand for more questions to be answered, then, we'll try to Try to facilitate that and respond to that, so yeah.
Editor’s note: OV 100 signups, February sales, apparel stock, email plans, and the Ask OV format reflect January 2025 company plans and offers; they are not current commitments or promotions.
[00:06:46] Tayson: All right with that, she's gonna go right now in the top here. In the very first question that was asked in was what are the pros and cons of trekking poles, what are the benefits of using them and which ones does Tayson use. So, Pros and cons of trekking poles. If you watch our content, you'll see that we pretty much always have trekking poles. And my advice to people is Start using trekking poles and almost every situation. I resisted them for quite a while. I feel like and in my hiking years and years ago, I mean, this is, I don't know. Five or seven years ago, I probably wasn't using them still And mainly because
[00:07:34] Tayson: anytime I kind of grabbed him, I just felt like they were awkward and kind of weird to use and didn't didn't flow. But what I found that is, if you'll just use them for one, two hours or just take them out on a single like hike or backpacking trip, they do become pretty second nature to use and from that point forward they're just a value add. So I I do I use them all the time and the main reasons why I would use a trekking Pole or why I use trekking poles, I should say I do find that it does take some pressure and strain off of, you know, knees and legs. And this when
[00:08:10] Tayson: you're doing big miles that little bit, even if you're only taking 20% of the load or something off of your your legs or your knees. It adds up to cumulative, fatigue, and cumulative, cumulative, strain on the joints. And a lot of times too, like it's not that you're necessarily using them or pumping with them on flat ground. You're usually using them specifically when you're going up or down things, that's when you transfer a lot of the weight to the poles and that again, helps with taking some of that pressure off knees and joints. The other thing I like to say is, when I'm climbing up a mountain, to me, it's like the difference of the
[00:08:47] Tayson: fear in a car going from two wheel drive to four wheel drive. You just have that much more Ability to to climb and to use different muscles to help you make it up the top of that hill. And it, it really does go a long ways to improving whatever speed or whatever you want to call. It, may not just total exertion but like speed at least it does help you with the climbing aspect and traction. You know, going back that analogy of two wheel drive versus four-wheel drive. Well, now you've got, you know, four wheels on the ground, you know, holding you down from slipping or sliding or anything like that. I mean, amount of
[00:09:25] Tayson: times that I've saved myself from falling by using trekking poles. I, I have no idea, but it's many, it's many. So those are some quick hits off the top of my head, as far as the pros or your thoughts on some of the pros of using trekking poles.
[00:09:41] Brigham: Yeah, I think. over like, as a cumulative, let's say if just to make a number easy, you know, if If you're doing a backpacking trip, where you've got five days of hiking of 20 miles each day, I think. of those each 20 miles, like it, there's some Some amount of savings on just your whole body like your joints specifically, there's a little bit of benefit to where it eases. Whatever wear and tear might occur on your joints. I think. For me, that's something I've noticed. It's not you know it's not a night and day difference but I think cumulatively it it does save you know a percentage of some of that joint fatigue and soreness
[00:10:32] Brigham: Yes. Stability. You know on there's something. I think there's some muscular Energy savings to be had specifically going uphill. So if you're trying to maintain kind of a pace because the way I use them going uphill is I really lean into them and bear down my weight because essentially all that does is it takes a percentage of my weight off my my legs which they're the main driving motor or muscle, right? Like so like but if I leaning into a hill and really Transferring some of that weight to my arms. And I'm relieving my legs a little bit for a stretch of that uphill. And I think I have noticed for me that is, is
[00:11:18] Brigham: a benefit over the long run, like at the end of a five-day trip, if there's a, it's a day of or stretch of mileage, where there is a lot of vertical. Um, because most of the time we're walking, we don't use our arms. So there's almost like just this reserve of kind of muscular endurance that can be just Tapped into the arms a little bit and end the core I would say. Yeah,
[00:11:42] Tayson: right. Like muscles muscles, definitely store energy in them and so Yeah, you've got energy to be depleted there and it kind of can somewhat restore itself and so being able to tap into when you're going up or downhills, definitely definitely adds up. I mean, I would go as far like I'm so sold on trekking poles that I actually started taking two sets of trekking poles. I leave this set of trekking poles on my truck at all times. And this I'd started doing this after I went on a trip and one of the members of our trip was was dragging and struggling. So I gave him my trekking poles to help them keep pace and do
[00:12:20] Tayson: a little bit better on some of the climbs and I did it helped them but then I didn't have such a trekking pole and I found out real quick. That sucked you know like to go like from climbing every hill with trekking poles to climbing to not having him was like a night and day difference to that. I started to just keep a set of trekking poles in my truck at all times, so that I could have a extra set for someone. If I ever needed an extra for someone or if I happen to forget, it's a, you know, sometime that I would have a sit there but they're, they're phenomenal. And I think some
[00:12:51] Tayson: people like well, they're cumbersome and this and this and like, I mean, I run with trekking poles like I trail run with trekking poles, not always, but a decent amount of the time. I've got them with me because I just find them that valuable and they don't have to be awkward and you don't, you know? Yeah, there can be learning curves. Like, I have, I have tripped over trekking. Poles, nine times out of 10. When I tripped over trekking poles. It's because I'm trying to do something as I'm walking, and trying to hold my trekking pole. So, I'm trying to unwrap something, right? Like, I could just stop and unwrap something but You really, you
[00:13:25] Tayson: really become an extension of your arm, just the more you use them and it does not take as long as you think, you know, you use them for one, two hours and most people, you know, have gone through the biggest learning curve of starting to use them.
[00:13:36] Tayson: Now, there's one other benefit, I don't feel like we've talked on yet which has to do with kind of weight and efficiency in terms of minimalist, gear and stuff. So, yeah, we do use trekking poles as a mechanism of setting up tents. So, you know, you can carry a set of dedicated tent poles in your bag, and yes, those setups will typically be a little bit lighter than trekking poles, but we can use trekking poles while hiking all day long and then use them to set up your shelter. At the end of the day, thereby using, you know, your pieces of gear, you know, multiple ways, which
[00:14:13] Tayson: is always a great way to save weight, but also just doubling up on the benefit of the trekking poles because we're using trekking poles and because we use them in the shelter, you know, we're gonna at least cut out the weight of poles. you know, depending on the tent can be anywhere from You know, three-quarters to a full pound you know it's 12 to 16 ounces of weight and just pole sets, right? So It's it's a, it's an efficient way to cut some weight out of your pack as well. I think that covers most of the pros. Now, the cons of trekking poles. There are none. We'll move on. That's The cons would be
[00:14:52] Tayson: that your hands aren't as free. So, you know, for us sometimes, we're running cameras on the trail or sometimes you're Like eat snacks as you go. If you're really trying to keep paces and that's probably the the biggest cons that I think of. And so a lot of times I'll just take them and tuck them under my shoulder or like under my arm and and do that but other times like specifically what I'm trail running. I I've gotten pretty proficient and actually using trekking poles breaking them down and putting them in my backpack. And so one, good example of this is when we've done the the rim to rim to rim, hikes and runs in
[00:15:30] Tayson: the Grand Canyon, I'll put my trekking poles into my backpack for a stretch of that so that I can get my hands free and then I'll try to eat and put down a lot of calories during specific sections of that trail with my hands-free. So you can, you can do that. I mean, just because you bring check and cold, doesn't mean you have to use them every step of the way. Most, you know, all of our backpacks, at least there's pretty easy ways to attach them to the bag. And so, but that is a con, like your hands can be full at times. And that's Sometimes you want your hands-free for a minute and that
[00:16:00] Tayson: can be a little bit annoying. Other cons.
[00:16:10] Brigham: drawing some blanks on the well, I mean it's The way that I see is like the disadvantages related to trekking poles are very—they’re almost very unique in that the amount of circumstances where they are a disadvantage is very, very narrow. It's very small and that's what the point I was going to touch on is I wouldn’t deliberately just not bring them for, you know, the 10% of a trip that they might become cumbersome because like you all you just said like You just stick them in your pack. You know. There's let's see. An example would be. You know, if you're doing a backpacking trip word, maybe you're going to do some off Trail
[00:17:04] Brigham: hiking, you know, maybe climbing up and over a rocky past or something, where there's not a designated Trail and you it may be steep enough that you may want your hands-free. So and and I did this last summer on that that trip with with Devin where Anytime we were going over one of these, these untraveled passes. I just stick the poles and the in the side pocket of the pack and then I had my hands free. But then as soon as we got down to the other side of the pass, I would just pull him out of the pack and use them. Another disadvantage, that's pretty similar. Is um, let's say you are doing a
[00:17:46] Brigham: trip where maybe you're hiking into an area and stay overnight in the tent but the next day, you might be doing some side hikes or day hikes. I mean, we've mentioned the example with, like, the in the snow, like climbing up the mountain in the snow, but like that's that's another real thing that you might not be climbing up a mountain in the snow, but you could just be hiking into an area. Say, you're you're going on a fly fishing trip into a lake Basin, but you might want to you know, hike a half mile over into another Basin to See what that lake is like, right? And and Not really convenient to take your
[00:18:28] Brigham: tent down just so that you can have your poles with you again. Like, that's And I don't have a narrow window of circumstances where that actually does happen. And in these cases, it's not You know, it's something that you can work around. Yeah. So like to sum them up I would say
[00:18:46] Tayson: there are some instances where we just put them in our backpacks you know like Braves that might be. In Grand Canyon things, it's probably less than 10% of the time. um, the other thing would probably be if you are planning to go and set a base camp and then continue to hike around In your planning on using them to set up your shelter then that can also be 1 case where, you know, something most advantageous, you know, for us or most companies like you could probably get a poll set, you know, just a vertical pole set to use if that if you're doing that a lot, right? So there's certain times a year, but
[00:19:22] Tayson: I do actually bring the the carbon-fiber pole sets for those because I like say if I'm out, you know, pursuing big game animals or something like that. I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna bring a poles as I can keep my truck and pulls with me. And then I see the biggest con of just be kind of looking at the weight, they asked which poles we use. So for starters, we did just add a new set
Editor’s note: Trekking-pole effects on joints, fatigue, traction, falls, pace, muscle use, and trail-running safety are the speakers’ personal January 2025 observations, not medical advice or a guarantee against injury. Technique, terrain, fit, and individual health still matter.
[00:19:47] Tayson: of poles on our website. We retail Komperdell poles. Those are poles that members can buy straight through Outdoor Vitals. But what we found is, we really been happy with the Komperdell poles. We've met with their CEO from Austria. Spend time kind of going through their technology and some things like that and we were impressed with them. So then we purchased them and started using them ourselves and we've just been really Really happy with them. So, The two sets of poles that we recommend the poles that me and Brigham have used. Most of the time are called the Komperdell C3 Carbon trekking pole. It's a more expensive set of trekking poles. Obviously, we put
[00:20:34] Tayson: a lot of miles on them. I still using the original ones that I bought three four years ago and Komperdell does have like a three year really, really impressive warranty. I was gonna make me sign in really quick but you know the weights off your head on the C3s I don't
[00:20:51] Brigham: and there I think partly reason why I like them so much is they are they are carbon fiber trekking pole and they might not be the lightest white carbon fiber trekking pole and I'm okay with that just because they're so they're so solid, they're so strong for what they are. You can get. Like, there's all kinds of different trekking poles, or, and some of them are even specialized for certain types of activities to where They're even lighter there but they're thinner and when they're lighter and thinner, they transmit more shock and vibration from the ground, impact up into your hands and it's noticeable and it's it's a decrease in efficiency of every single pole plant
[00:21:36] Brigham: which is you know tens of thousands in a day, right? So they they have a very robust locking mechanism that you know is I really like when he described their manufacturing process of how that locking mechanism works that, you know, I don't know if the average person is going to be able to discern that, but it's it's a piece of Mind thing for me. So there I would say a robust carbon fiber pole but there and they are expensive but we've put a lot of miles on them, I haven't seen
[00:22:14] Tayson: any breaks anything like that. Whereas like if you go do your own research, you'll find that the poles that are lighter than these ones that are carbon fiber and lighter. And it was a lot of cases of people saying they have snap poles. Our my biggest thing is when I have used poles that are lighter than these, what I set them down, they quiver in your hand, they basically Shake as they hit the ground because they've got vibration and I'm where is these are very solid and that little vibration, you know, over the course of the day It annoys me, I guess I don't know if it like has any big negatives but it's it's
[00:22:46] Tayson: quite annoying and bothersome. So the C3 Carbon poles, they weigh about six and a half ounces per pole. So 13 ounces total for the pole set. And those are like the most premium ones, you're gonna select through buying them through us, you’re getting about $30 in savings on those you're around 170 or something. Then there's a middle set of poles that. We've all had a lot of good luck with, again, from Komperdell, they're experts in aluminum as well. I've made a lot of if they've done a aluminum for a long, long time, I mean, they're playing was that they're aluminum is strong as most people's carbons. That's kind of the mid-tier. If you're looking to
[00:23:25] Tayson: spend a mid-tier and then this last year, we did release. What I would say is more of a budget set. So if you're just getting started with trekking poles, these would definitely be an option to look at. I've used them a little bit and I do find that they're pretty dang solid, these ones for the Komperdell Wild Rambler trekking pole. And you're gonna get into those for about 60 bucks. Weight on those, is also pretty dang good at just under eight and a half ounces. So you're gonna spend a lot more money to save about two ounces per Pole. But you also get strength and some durability and things like that. So but if
[00:24:00] Tayson: you want to start that like, there's some sets you can get into for 50 60 bucks. They're a good place to start, you know, start using trekking poles. But I mean, for me personally, like I'm gonna invest in tricking poles the rest of my life. Like I find them incredibly valuable and will always spend to get nicer
[00:24:18] Brigham: trekking poles—a lot of miles for the dollar, I mean, if that one of those pieces of gear, it's it's not something you're replacing Frequently. So, that's the way I think it was, man. There's a lot and lots of mileage. That I'm getting for for those poles for even with how much they cost.
Editor’s note: Komperdell pole models, weights, prices, savings, durability, availability through Outdoor Vitals, and warranty comments reflect January 2025. Verify current products, specifications, prices, stock, and warranty/support terms before relying on them.
[00:24:36] Tayson: Yeah. All right, let's move on to the next question here. Keep things moving. Looks like the next on the list is what's the deciding factors to discontinue a product I'll let you start with. Actual products side and then maybe I'll talk a little bit about the financial side per se or any gaps. But
[00:24:57] Brigham: yeah, well, I, it's more of a financial decision than anything so.
[00:25:02] Tayson: Well, well, that was a lot of times. We just design the Next Generation.
[00:25:07] Brigham: Okay, okay. So there's a generational replacement, I would call it. So if we have a product and we update that product Easy example just because it's fairly recent is our top quilt so the previous generation top quilt. As soon as we saw the last one obviously we won't be selling that model anymore. We have a we've replaced it with an update and of course, our purpose for updating is not to say we did something new. It's because we are always learning and Through lots of lots of experience and lots of nights. Backpacking. We decide that we can do something better, and that's what we're always going to do is try to make the Next Generation
[00:25:59] Brigham: better so that it's a better option for somebody that maybe already has that that product or, you know, Some somebody that's new to outdoor, vitals gear. So that's how I would answer that.
[00:26:15] Tayson: Along that same vein there's been times in company history. Not so much in the last three or four years, but maybe five years previous there were times that we would discontinue a product or replace the product, even if it was a good selling product due to just like branding or we just like we wanted our name and what not associated with a better tier of product. So good example of that one would be like our LoftTek Jacket, right? That was a pivotal piece. In company history, is sold really, really well, we ended up discontinuing that piece even though it was selling well because we wanted to make even better gear and Associated. You
[00:26:55] Tayson: know, our brand name associated with, you know, the level of quality that we wanted to be associated with. So there hasn't been farther back company history, say five years and previous there's been a handful and since of that, right, That goes really hand-in-hand with Brigham said and kind of leads into the financial side, which is from a financial standpoint. We do have to justify where we're putting our money where we're putting our cash because essentially we're tying up cash in inventory. And if that inventory is not selling fast enough, like that's an easy trigger like we're just not selling it fast enough to to justify it. Then we'll let it go if it's a product
[00:27:37] Tayson: like we just mentioned that we're phasing out into a new product line, then what we're going to discontinue that product but yeah, a lot of it has to do with with just the sales velocity of products, or just future-generation updates. We will see us from time to time as well, like, we'll rotate colors some of color rotation can just be more related, to us, wanting to keep things fresh. But sometimes a certain colors, just not selling as well as the other two colors, so we'd rather drop that. Color and try another option to make sure to see if that color would sell more similar to the other two colors in the line or
[00:28:15] Tayson: the other color patterns, right? So, Yeah, really. For the most part though like discontinuing is either we build something better or from a financial standpoint. It's just not selling well enough that the velocity of sales, you know, compared to how much cash that we're tying into it just doesn't make sense. And then the very last one would be specially in farther back company. History us, just discontinuing products based off of our brand evolving and becoming much higher quality. I would say over the course of first five years compared to the next five years of our brand. So
[00:28:52] Brigham: yeah, as a as a company. I mean we Where we're at. As we choose like we make the conscious decision that we want. Product line consistency. So, you know, it's a choice like we could say, oh yeah, we want to have three qualities of tear across our product lines. So we're going to make a really high dollar item and then we're going to make a really budget item and then and then a somewhere in the middle and At this point, you know, we would rather just have a consistent easily understood. Kind of eliminate that thought process process out of the consumers. Mind in terms of shopping for our products and looking at our products and
[00:29:33] Brigham: researching them. So, yeah, I mean,
[00:29:35] Tayson: at the end of the day, we, we are Avid users of our product and we want to love the product. We build want to use the product, we build We're not just making product strictly for Pure financial gain. And what I mean by that is like we easily could make much cheaper products. And, you know, we like years and years ago, we did a lot of sales on Amazon, we don't anymore. But, you know, we could have designed products more specifically for Amazon, but the problem was those are really budget focused products. That's about how cheap you can get those products and how much you can overclaim what they are. In fact, I've recently is
[00:30:13] Tayson: a tangent. I recently went back and looked at some of The stuff on Amazon that we used to compete against and I was just looking at it and I was remembering how oftentimes we would get returns from these other brands that pretty much primarily saw on Amazon and we'd still see like, the fill power of their bags. First hand, her hands on it, see it touch it, you know, and it was like so far over claimed that it was It was just it's just kind of disgusting, I guess. Like, so anyway, going back to that though. Like yeah, we could just build products for massive amounts of sales and just velocity and Chase that. But
[00:30:49] Tayson: for us, we wanted to build a brand to do specific things and to build confidence around specific things and things we love. And so we really, you know, over the course of this company of really focused on performance first Ultra, like gear and designing. Very targeted designs for for performance in the field and things like that. So
[00:31:13] Tayson: so like I say you don't want to have products that maybe are selling well but they're not. You know, our brand is evolved, we'll still discontinuing discontinued them even if they were selling well to have a more cohesive brand experience. So Okay. Next question. Why don't you make
Editor’s note: Top-quilt generations, LoftTek history, sales velocity, colors, Amazon strategy, and discontinuation criteria describe the company’s January 2025 history and plans—not current product status or a promise that any item will remain available.
[00:31:34] Tayson: or include rain covers for backpacks? Good question. There's a lot of there's a lot here. We did, we made rain covers for backpacks. Many years ago, when I was the one designing backpacks. We had a modern like the Rhyolite pack in a few things. And that's also to say there is one or two trips a year that I do, bring a rain cover for a backpack. However, it is not when I am backpacking. It is. When I am hunting, to be honest. I bring a rain cover because sometimes I will be out in the rain and I will not be actively hiking and I want something to just cover up my bag. Maybe as
[00:32:14] Tayson: I'm sitting on the side of the hill or something like that. So there are a couple times that I'll still do that. So there are some uses for it. But the reason we got away from them with our packs, a specifically for Backpackers when you're actively, moving on the trail, a rain cover isn't always the most advantageous. Maybe there's different parts of the country where it works a little bit better than others and things like that. But the two big things, the two fatal flaws. In my opinion, with with rain covers are catching them on brush and debris and trees and having a pull off of your pack. Which is often quite annoying and a
[00:32:48] Tayson: struggle. And The other thing would be. Wind. I've had a lot of issues with wind pack covers and you know when you're in Rain sometimes you get in sideways wind and it just blows the water up and in between the cracks of you know, even though you cinch those things down and try to get a nice and tight. Typically, rain covers are pretty Universal fit and so special, because you're back and expand and contract and all those kinds of things, you have to have something that's very adjustable and so it's hard to make anything that And maybe not impossible to make it. We probably could make something, you know, that was more built into the
[00:33:25] Tayson: pack. But, you know, I've had a lot of wind and stuff blow rain in between kind of where my back is and where the bag is get up in those cracks. And so, it's kind of a, that's a decent part of it. And then, the last thing would be weight, you know, rain covers, one more thing to have in your backpack. There's a little bit more weight there compared to other options that we now use. But any other reasons, That we don't use rain covers.
[00:33:49] Brigham: Yeah. I think just the easiest way to sum it up is There's not enough scenarios that most people. That are products are designed for finding themselves in that. Warrants us to offer it just just not enough. Not enough practicality for it. So yeah,
[00:34:11] Tayson: so instead how do we manage rain and wetness on the trail?
[00:34:19] Brigham: well, I mean I personally will manage, you know, protection from the elements, number one via. Just the pack itself, it is very protective, you know, we've tested our packs in hours of rain and you know, very, very little water actually gets into the pack and that's because Just because it's a, it's a big bag. I mean, the reality is, is that bag? Even though it's got, maybe say a zipper or some stitching in it, It's still a significant amount of coverage on top of all the gear like that's as simple as it gets like it provides more protection than people are willing to give the confidence in that. are the people that want to rain
[00:35:08] Brigham: cover, but and the fabric itself, yeah, the fabric is not, it's not Immediately permeable, right? Like it, it has a water resistance to a substantial water resistance. Is equal to, you know, most tent rain flies. Now in terms of like a rain jacket, Rating. Like, it's No tent is as high of waterproof rating as a rain jacket waterproof rating, right? But, but we rely on our tents to protect us for the rain. And there are, there are different factors at play here. Comparing a tenth to a backpack but Describe it. Our backpack, fabric has water resistance. It is water resistant, quite water resistant, so much, so that in hours of rain water, is not just
[00:35:59] Brigham: coming through the fabric. The only place the water ever gets through is just at the seams and, you know, when you're out in the rain for six hours and you open it up and you might have Six to 12 drops of water. throughout the backpack, you know, that's quite protective, but For the most important items that I want to keep dry, which are anything that's meant to keep me warm, especially anything that's got down. I just use dry bags, are all of our sleep systems, whether it's the sleeping bag or a top quilt, they come with a roll-top-seamed waterproof dry bag. And so what I actually like to do is I keep anything
[00:36:44] Brigham: that I'm going to sleep in or with in that dry bag. So, if I'm taking like a pair of really, really lightweight sleeping clothes, like or leggings, and a extra altitude, long sleeve t-shirt, that's three ounces. I roll those up. I stuff those in the stuff sack in the dry bag with my top quilt. And like if it's a cold weather Colder Weather, I'll put an extra pair of socks in there as well. Just so I know that once I get my tent up, I can go right into dry warm clothing and Sleep System, you know, I'm not putting my rain jacket in a dry bag. I very well, I've never say like a pack
[00:37:23] Brigham: of Ventus hoodie. So for those, if you're not familiar with the Ventus Hoodie that's a synthetic insulation, nylon lightweight, insulated pullover, I never put that in a dry bag. I don't care what the weather forecast is its Never going to get wet enough that it's not going to keep me warm if I put it on. So I don't take changes of clothes on backpacking trips so those aren't getting put in a dry bag. My kit. Really is mostly just close that are meant to keep me warm or sleeping bag or quilt goes in a dry bag. I do keep my food in a dry bag. I don't yeah, I just maybe I'm paranoid
[00:38:09] Brigham: with it. Like I don't want to open up for dinner and have like snacks like all soggy and, you know, whatever but
[00:38:14] Tayson: yeah, I think I don't do that one because I typically pack my food kind of in multiple layers as a blocks
[00:38:22] Brigham: like well I mean that's kind of the thing is like Ziploc is a dry bag as well, so whether it's a roll-top dry bag like I do or a Ziploc like those are both waterproof.
Editor’s note: Backpack fabric resistance, rain-test duration, seam leakage, drop counts, dry-bag construction, and clothing/product examples are January 2025 claims and personal packing practice, not a waterproofness guarantee. Protect critical insulation for the actual conditions.
[00:38:34] Tayson: Guys, this some really strong reasons to, to do to pack how like Brigham is talking about. I do the same, I bring With like, if you were to pull up in a listing for one of our sleeping bags, they come with roll top dry bags as a compression method. So you have like a storage bag and then a roll-top dry bag. And so we use those roll top dry bags to compress, you know, to keep our our sleeping bags both dry but all so compressed right people don't do a dry bag as a compression tool but it's a phenomenal compression tool. You just roll it over once essentially, kneel on it, push all the
[00:39:11] Tayson: air out. Roll it up, a handful more times and now you've got a dry bag. That's also a compression bag. So a lot of people are already packing with a compression bag or a storage bag and those, those are gonna weigh the same if not, more than a dry bag. At least the ones that we make that are, you know, lighter weight, dry bags. So yeah, so I put, you know, sleeping bag on my sleep kit and a dry bag and then I will typically take a second dry bag where I'm putting, I put my insulation in it. So I'm gonna put like I'm bringing a NovaUL puffy or if I'm bringing in, you know
[00:39:44] Tayson: whatever whatever extra clothes I have or in slit of layers. I'm usually putting in there and then like Brigham said, my rain jacket. A lot of times I put that on the outside of my pack, right? So I can just grab it quickly and it works well too if you get some some wind coming up, you can sometimes just Up and have a quick piece to grab and the wind, right? But dry bags have been the ticket for us. I know a lot of people use the Nylofume. Back liners which is also a very good method because those are I mean they weigh like fractions of an ounce like so let's say a rain
[00:40:17] Tayson: cover might weigh three to four ounces versus a Nylofume pack liner. You talking fractions of an ounce and so they're really really light. The only thing about the Nylofume that I don't personally love is they are more they're less durable than a dry bag and there's no compression benefit to them and I like to compress things and keep things organized. I'm not the guy who likes to pack my top quilt and let it like, fill up the space in my backpack, right? There's people that do that, they don't, they don't put their top quilt like inside of a storage bag or anything like that. So then it's free floats in their backpack. I
[00:40:51] Tayson: don't like to do that and there's probably a lot of reasons for that. One could be moisture management two, you're putting in a food. So now you're kind of, like got all the food touching up against stuff and if it were to ever break open or spill, I don't want food getting all over everything you just, and there's just so much more debris and dirt. That's going to get in and out of that backpack as you're pulling things in and out of that backpack. So personally, I don't love to do that. I found a very effective method of just Packing up my, my sleeping bag, you know, in a dry bag and I put that
[00:41:21] Tayson: very first in the very bottom of my pack its kind of moldable and Squishy it. So I squish it down in there, get it nice and then and then I just start stacking on top of that and I find that to be really nice. Plus I am of the belief, I don't know if it's the belief or the science I would say it's science but I'll call it an opinion for. Now the bigger your backpack is the more bulky it is. The more strain, it puts on you, throughout the day, can be either a balanced train or it can be, you know, your weight is not situated correctly on your back and so it's more
[00:41:51] Tayson: fatiguing on your back or something. I like to have the most tight and condensed backpack that I can keep things. Streamlined fast, Nimble. And so having a top quilt or something is free floating in my backpack, it just makes my bag bigger. For no benefit. I mean there might be some slight benefits that turns of some of it but I I just that's not my thing. And so dry bags. I've bring two dry bags on every trip. One for all my sleep stuff, you sleep, insulation, and balaclava or something, right? And then another one for just clothes, you know? Yeah,
[00:42:24] Brigham: the two, like, a two dry bag system with their like say like kind of in the 10- to 15-liter volume size of dry bag. It's really good system and I think about it not just in isolation of what do I use to protect my stuff from rain? Like, that's two isolated, and I find way more efficiency in a systems approach to like, Everything in my pack is for the most part a system, including how I pack including how I hiked, including, how I use dry bags. So, The dry bag does keep my stuff dry but like you were mentioning it doesn't, just keep it dry, it, protects it from other debris. What is why is
[00:43:09] Brigham: that a problem? Well, dirt debris. Degrades the insulation value of your sleep system. So if you're just stuck in your sleep system in the pack and then you're throwing in something that you just picked up off the ground, that's got dust and dirt on it. And then you just stuff that on top of your quilt, you're degrading the quality of your sleeping bag, and it will happen in. I mean, a lot faster than you would think. So, I want my sleeping system, my sleep system, which is a quilt usually, to be as clean as possible for as long as possible. So, that's the drive back. Again, I mentioned throwing other stuff to keep dry in
[00:43:46] Brigham: there, but then Looking at it again as a system, okay? So if I Get into where I'm going to sleep at night, call it Camp, right? And a storm is rolling in. I want to get my shelter set up as quick as possible, right? That's to protect me and that's protect my gear. I don't want to just yard sale on my stuff, pull out a quilt. And just lay it on the ground while it's raining, but up your back or even take it. I don't even want to take it out of my bag if it's raining. I don't want my packed to just be out there in the rain open so that my unprotected quilt
[00:44:26] Brigham: can get rained on while I'm setting up the tent and that goes for other items. And so, like, It's kind of that. System's mentality that if I, if I need to just have a self-contained sleep system that I can just hurry and grab and set under a tree and a storm or as soon as my tent is set up, I can just take the dry bag out of the pack and throw it in the tent real quick and know that it's going to be dry when I get in there. I don't have to worry about anything. I don't have to worry about the wind blowing it away. I've lost Nylofume pack liners, to the
[00:45:05] Brigham: wind, like they're gone, somewhere in the wilderness because the wind took it. And so, yeah, I prefer to think of it more as like, part of a system and what all the things that are that come into play.
Editor’s note: Dry-bag, Nylofume-liner, compression, cleanliness, insulation, and storm-setup comments are personal January 2025 system preferences. Current materials and product specifications may differ, and no packing method guarantees dry gear.
[00:45:22] Tayson: One one other thing though. About this that I think is critical as some backpacks. Bring them back to the Rain covers. Some backpacks will absorb water and so like you're backpack is heavier as the day goes on. If you have a backpack, that's those kinds of materials. I can see why it's advantageous to have a rain cover true and and there's some people that also are just in like hey I'm going on on this hike. It's scheduled to rain for hours every single day of my trip. You know. Like if you're hiking on East Coast, when I hiked out there, I remember used specific rain storms. I was just like Just like insane amounts of
[00:46:06] Tayson: water. And this is scheduled to be this way for days and days or something. I would almost consider in those situations. If there's not a lot of wind and you're on, good established Trails, maybe do both rain. Like but everything in a dry bag, like I've never, not personally, I'm never not doing that because that's like pretty much. It's as close to a guarantee that my stuff will stay dry as I can possibly get But in those situations, like I may still want to run a pack cover and dry bags, but that's my own personal opinion, but some people's backpacks. I think that would just be the last cat out here. Some people's backpacks are
[00:46:40] Tayson: made of more of like a think like a canvas e type texture, right? Like where it's that's more of an open weave and whatnot and those kind of absorb moisture. So I do have I've used packs for that is the case and I will typically those are a lot of times when I do bring a rain covers, when they've got a fabric that I feel like will absorb water and hold water. I don't want my backpack getting heavier, because it’s absorbing water and staying wet, because it's absorbing water. So at least the two three backpacks. We use they're the fabric will absorb really, no water effectively, I would say just next to no water. So
[00:47:21] Tayson: last question kind of, on this being really quick here. Can you seen seal
Editor’s note: Rain-cover suitability, fabric absorption, extended-rain scenarios, and Outdoor Vitals pack performance are January 2025 opinions and claims. Results vary with material, seams, wear, exposure, fit, and use.
[00:47:26] Brigham: the CS40? Uh, yeah, you can. it might not be the way that most people would think if They're thinking of seam-sealing in the way that you seam-seal a tent. Now that can be done with a backpack. That's that's not something that we don't do, because it can't be done, but in terms of, if somebody has a CS40 and they want to seam seal it, you would actually be seam-sealing it from the outside so you would get Aquaseal. That's a, what's the name of the company that makes Aqua seal?
[00:48:04] Tayson: We make that we were. We sell it McNett. That's like, that's the parent company. Actually, Gear Aid. Yeah, Yeah,
[00:48:11] Brigham: it's just, the kind of looks like a big toothpaste tube. Usually comes with like, a brush or a foam brush, but it's actually the way I would do it is to, I would try to stuff the cs40 with something very light and expandable. So a couple sleeping bags or just a bunch of pillows just something that's going to like fill out the bag and turn it into like A balloon. Yeah. So it's not It's not going to have like, any looseness at all, just because you want to, you want the seams to kind of like be in a state of tension pushing outward. And then you just you run a bead of the seam, sealer,
[00:48:50] Brigham: along every seam and then you, you really brush it in and the the fabric and all the materials that are layered and sewn together to make the pack. It's a lot thicker than if you were to do it on a tent on a tent. It's like a very flat surface. So just be I would just. I would apply it liberally man, like I would just go very liberal with Squeezing that stuff on there and really taking the time to back brush and really rub it into the seams. and then leave that to dry, and you might have to do it like, Half or a quarter at a time but that's how that's how I
[00:49:27] Brigham: would do it. That's that's how I recommend doing it and I would expect that you could get probably reliable protection. you know, maybe maybe for a season just because of how often that pack is going to be emptied and then full and then fold it. All those seams are going to be Creasing, folding crackling, and rolling onto each other and eventually, that's just going to wear out. That that seam sealer but I would be totally confident doing that and getting many many. Many many, many Trail Days of time with a seam sealing application like that.
[00:50:08] Tayson: Yeah I've seen so almost very very little I would just advise to spend some time on YouTube watching, some people seem still and get a little taste of it or even do a little bit of practice. Once you crack that tube open, you've you've got a little bit more of like a lifespan. Yeah, so just be aware of that too. Like it's not quite quite like toothpaste, where you just uncap it and cap it and it works great. Like it'll start to hard and it gets a little bit challenging so it can be challenging. I would just take all the little bits of advice and apply them. You will be way more happy doing that
[00:50:44] Tayson: to your nice backpack. Then figure out figuring out the mistakes on there.
[00:50:49] Brigham: Yeah, practices practice, you know, 12 to 18 inches of seam on an older backpack that you're not using or that you don't care about just, you know, it'd be worth it.
Editor’s note: The CS40 exterior seam-sealing method, Gear Aid/Aquaseal product reference, application amount, drying, service-life estimate, and protection claim reflect January 2025 advice. Follow current pack and sealant instructions; modification may affect materials or warranty and does not guarantee waterproofness.
[00:50:59] Tayson: Yeah. Okay, well that's all the questions we're going to get to today. I think he's again, I enjoy these. I think this is kind of in a lot of ways. This is kind of like just a great way to ask. a customer-support question. Just directly to me and Brigham, but just keep in mind, like we're open to anything trips, specific training, specific planning specific, anything to help you guys get Outdoors. That's what these questions can be about again. Just go straight to our website, right in a question just tag it and say, you know, as a podcast question and and write that in and hopefully it'll make it onto the show. Always the
[00:51:38] Tayson: better your question the more likely it's going to make on the show or not. Gonna answer every question we do hold some discretion I guess in that sense but yeah let's hear some some really good questions that love to dig into these and try to try to just have some really interesting conversations. So yeah, really enjoyed these questions today. Thanks for the people that wrote those in and looking forward to some more questions here. So, With that again, just make sure you guys are subscribed to this podcast to see the next one's coming out.
Editor’s note: The website/customer-support submission workflow, podcast-question tagging, selection discretion, and continuation of Ask OV describe January 2025; they are not a current support or submission commitment.
[00:52:06] Tayson: If you have not yet rated this podcast, that we'd really appreciate that that helps us continue to spread the word and help get people into the vital outdoors and show this with the friend if they don't wear use trekking poles. I'll be my number one bit of advice. They're not yet trekking-pole users, sat on this podcast and say, hey dude, it's time to level up. So Okay, with that we'll go ahead and call it. Good luck on your weekend trip. You're heading out right now to Go Brave some, some weather and some storms. So Good luck with that. And yeah, well, we'll catch you guys on the next episode.
