[00:00:00] Tayson: Everybody welcome back to the Live Ultralight Podcast. Powered by Outdoor Vitals. Today we are doing another behind the design podcast for our brand new Shadowlight Carbon 60 backpack. Now, this is a next generation of our best-selling Shadowlight backpack and it's been a long time coming. We released the first Shadowlight if I remember, right? In 2020, ish. It. I'm looking to bring them here. Might have been 2021, might have been right around there so we're about four years of the original Shadowlight and so it was it was time for an update after thousands of packs being sold and, you know, collecting feedback there, as well as progressions and design, and our own abilities to or
[00:00:47] Tayson: on materials and all those things. So, that's what this podcast is gonna be about, is really digging in to the behind the scenes, the Deep dive on designing, the pack and the thought processes that go into it. What's going to make this pack stand out for you work really well for you. And just getting into that Nitty Gritty. So these are some of the most listened to and commented podcasts that we do. So yeah, leave us comments. If you're on YouTube leave us a comment there. We definitely answer those both verbally and will bring him out of the podcast for questions, but feel free to reach out with any questions that you do have.
[00:01:24] Tayson: But Brigham. How are we doing today?
[00:01:27] Brigham: I'm doing pretty well. Yeah, it's today's little cooler. I don't know, like a week or two, I'm glad it's September. It's feeling. I'm ready for autumn. I love
[00:01:44] Tayson: summer. I I'm like with how hot are summers been here in Utah and how dry?
[00:01:49] Brigham: Yeah.
[00:01:51] Tayson: I would have thought that that trip we didn't Colorado on the Colorado. Trail would have been like the most miserable trip but we got a little bit of rain like every day on that one which made it cool. But here in Utah, it's been blistering, hot and dry really hot and dry. And then we finally got some got some rain coming in the last couple weeks, and It really cool that off. It's been it's been nice. It's been I've been able to get up in the mountains last couple weekends and it's been It's been awesome.
[00:02:18] Brigham: Awesome. Yeah.
[00:02:21] Tayson: How you feeling about launches? We just launched a couple Mountain Pursuit. Yeah, we got this launch and then we've got one more launch in the near future. So it's kind of
[00:02:34] Brigham: still, I We very recently you know did podcast about the mountain Pursuit clothing. Piece is um, but it still feels like it's been a while since we've had product launches. It has well, we went kind of when it rains it. Pours, yeah, so lately. So they're concentrated in this like two month period. but yeah, aside from that, it's kind of, Oh, it's good. Good to be talking about product launches. It's just been, it's been a while.
[00:03:11] Tayson: We've had a gap for sure. Yeah. So this is way fun. I'm super excited about the Shadowlight. I think I think a lot of our audience was excited about Mountain Pursuit pieces, but I might suggest that people are even more excited about the Shadowlights, which is saying something, because the Mountain Pursuit line launched like broke records for us. It was phenomenal.
[00:03:31] Brigham: Yeah. So
[00:03:34] Tayson: I'm excited to see what Shadowlight does. Yeah, you say it's got a, it's got a big following. It's been a best selling pack for us and just a lot of a lot of interest in it. So, Let's um, let's walk people through this design process. It's been At least a couple years in the making obviously with anything that we do. It's like you launch it and almost straight away. You pull out your pencil and start taking notes on improvements. Like, I think as a designer, you never are not watching and looking to improve anything constantly. So even though it's been, you know, four years since our last, since we launched the Shadowlight, this is
[00:04:12] Tayson: been basically a four year design project for the next gen. When I mean, is a way to look at this.
Editor’s note: The original Shadowlight release timing, sales history, Mountain Pursuit launch results, and product-development timeline are September 2025 recollections. They are historical company and launch claims, not current sales or availability information.
[00:04:18] Brigham: Yeah, I mean, It's absolutely true. The the process really never ends. like with a brand having to release products at some point. You have to say, you know, you have to like, put a stop to something and and put a logo on it and sell it right, you know, I mean but but really the process really doesn't ever doesn't ever end, you know, We're always trying to. We always want to improve our products. without making our customers like guinea pigs but on the design side, it's it's never anything done. He's looking at. Looking and listening. Looking listening. Looking at what I see and listening to what other people see. And You know,
[00:05:09] Tayson: yeah. so, When we release the Shadowlight, it was really the first backpack that you had designed for Outdoor Vitals. That was like a complete. Brand new pack. And and so like meaning that you started that design project, not me and and so There are some there are some theories behind that Packer or just Concepts that we want to introduce their and those little guy say the same so let's let's go back to what that pack really was and its infancy. And what, what was the market? What was the purpose of that pack from day one that again, hold True to this pack?
[00:05:48] Brigham: well, that we at that time, we really wanted to have a like a very A very good entry. Meaning our first kind of entry into the ultralight pack. Category. And like, we understand that there's there's no definition of what that is, but we kind of created what we wanted to bracket in our parameters. Like, as we wanted the pack to be two pounds or less. We want the pack to be an approachable pack for maybe somebody coming from. A more. just traditional type, backpacking pack that might be a bit heavier bulkier that might have you know, more organization or access. And so we wanted to pack to be approachable from somebody coming from there. But
[00:06:42] Brigham: also be just as intuitive to the person that's already, you know, really been Doing this thing for for years. And so we wanted it to be an attractive option there too. And so that, that meant to balance of access pocketing organization, type things. And Keeping it two pounds or under that that place is kind of some some guidelines of what you can do with those things, access pocketing and and organization. And but we all know wanted the pack to be. you know, to properly carry a load like that, that was a big thing for us was designing the pack to properly to comfortably support. A reasonable load that. That that Target user would would have.
[00:07:38] Brigham: And, you know, that could be a 10 pound base weight, you know, and that ends up being a 20 pound pack on the trail and that could be a 15, you know, something that ends up being 35 pounds on the trail, we wanted to be able to accommodate that and have a comfortable pack to do that.
[00:07:56] Tayson: Yeah, I think that's that's a good way to put it, for sure, on the on the weight carry. I think like for us when we were setting out like weight carrying is super important to us to get right because let's face it out here in the West You sometimes can be doing bigger pushes, between between stops between resupplies. You can be carrying more water because its Dry desert or high desert. And then I mean, I would just throw this out there. But like, every time I go on a Long Trail, there's a lot of people out there that maybe have an ultra light pack and it just packed to the brim. And, you know, when,
[00:08:32] Tayson: when some of these packs on the ultralight side, like when they don't have frames or, or you don't have as many options to make that pack comfortable, it's just say, because they skimp on on features and abilities that ends up just being an uncomfortable pack. And so for us, we wanted to make it You know, a pack that could really carry the weight. Well, Regardless of, whether you've got five pounds in there or 35/40 pounds in there. So, and all of those aspects have remained true with the Shadowlight. When we went to redesign this pack. We did not want to erase anything that made this pact great. We really only wanted to keep everything
[00:09:10] Tayson: that was that was great and fixed or improve upon. I should say anything that either. We got feedback on or or we ourselves, you know, decided to modify from our own, you know, hundreds of miles on the trail with this thing. Yeah. And so that's exactly what we did.
[00:09:26] Brigham: Yeah. It's anytime you look at, Touching, you know, an existing product. There's decisions have to be made but some of those decisions are almost kind of like like a position, right? And so like With the Shadowlight, it has been consistently. One of our Best-selling products, you know, volume wise and so that tells us something that something about that. ACT people people are drawn to, they appreciate it. There's certain benefits to that pack that people find Value in. And so, when we look at updating a product, We're making kind of like a generational update. Pretty important to not. Deviate very far from that original. Platform or architecture, whatever you want to call it. So like
[00:10:27] Brigham: with the Shadowlight, we wanted to keep the Shadowlight. A Shadowlight, the things that make a Shadowlight. You know, work so well. For a lot of people like we wanted to add meaningful Improvement without really like completely changing what the Shadowlight is and just maintaining the name. Yeah. so, starting with some of the similarities that we wanted to keep
[00:10:53] Tayson: You know, going back to that organization aspect. The Shadowlight, has this upper side pockets. The back divided pocket, the zipper entry into the main compartment. Those are all things that had a lot of positive feedback. I mean, again not every backpack, is for everyone. And there's some people that maybe don't like that centers up into the pack or things like that. That's fine. There's other packs that we make. There's other packs out there. I will say this maybe quickly. There is a lot of, like, well, that's a failure point on a backpack. Zippers have been used in the main compartments on packs for a lot of years. And in our own warranty department of
[00:11:33] Tayson: thousands of packs that we have sold, we've never had a failed zipper on a Shadowlight. So just wanted to note that that's why we're continuing to use this, as it's not not been a failure point in thousands of packs. But it is freaking useful and I'll touch base on that. When you talk about some of the testing and use, we've had of this pack even recently. So access organization are things that we wanted to keep in the pack. We just talked on the load distribution aspect. So basically what that means is that we want to continue to refine the harness system to hit that system, but also keep our full sized frames in it, right?
[00:12:11] Tayson: We don't want a 17 18 inch frame. That doesn't allow us to get a proper load, lift angle on those upper straps and the things that are required to shift weight down to the hips. In a meaningful way. So, you know, we're going to keep a solid full size frame on the pack. I mean, those are the big ones, those are what keep it under two pounds still, which is, which was a goal of the original shadow, that is sub two pounds. Yeah, I'm missing anything. I mean, Things that we, I mean, go over things that we just kept the same things, we changed but fabric wise, we have. We've got a lot of miles.
[00:12:53] Tayson: A lot of testing talk to a lot of people out there that have used this pack for thousands of miles. Scott packs. Back to us that have gone through full through hikes and we didn't have any reservations on the main ripstop nylon fabric with the Spectra in it that held up extremely well. If someone somehow did Happened to find a way to make a hole in that fabric, the Spectra yarns just absorbed it held that pack Together made it totally functional. However, the mesh was a little bit harder to last thousands of miles and so we did a touch on that, which we'll get to Yeah, I mean, I think
[00:13:34] Tayson: those are the main concepts that we didn't want to touch and didn't want to mess with. It was working great, positive feedback. So yeah. This is a pack though that as I've done, some videos recently for marketing purposes, we've touched a lot of this pack. Like we, like minor refinements. That make a massive overall Improvement. Yeah. So you want to start with the minor stuff for the major stuff.
[00:14:00] Brigham: Yeah, I don't know it. I don't care too much. I mean, really
[00:14:05] Tayson: start with, let's start with the smaller stuff. Let's start with like Tweaks, I guess before we get to like the harness. Yeah
Editor’s note: The sub-two-pound target, load range, full-size frame, zipper reliability, fabric durability, warranty experience, and retained features describe Outdoor Vitals’ September 2025 design claims. Confirm current specifications, fit guidance, warranty terms, and product details on the accepted product page.
[00:14:11] Brigham: there's some there are some small like tweaks. So on the backpack, on the side, there's two pockets on each side. It was the lower pocket that we commonly refer to just like the water bottle pocket and then there's an upper side pocket and we we basically in the volume of that upper side pocket just to make it. More more usable. As a special in the pack is full, when the pack is full. So more volume added, so that you can For those that want to can put more things in there that they can easily access for whatever reason at any given point on their their trip without pushing. You know, into the main body of
[00:15:01] Brigham: the pack. And then, we also refined the kind of the Cinch, the Cinch cord, how that functions, just little things like that, that, you know, after using something for someone so long, and having open eyes and ears to improving them, those are just little things that that come about that we feel good about Adding or updating with the new Shadowlights. So I think that's a small tweak but it's it's a notable know it's noticeable. Like how easy that pocket cinches up and the extra space? So
[00:15:37] Tayson: yeah. So for quick reference, probably the easiest thing I can describe that I like to put in those upper pockets is a 550 milliliter pot. I've always like to keep my cook system up in that top one of those top side pockets, I could get it in the old one, I was often kind of pushing in on the pack and wedging it down and it's really tight. The new one, I can slide it in there with ease when it's full and actually, tuck more stuff down and around it. So, volume wise, I don't know what percentage, you might know what percentage, but at least like a 50% increase in volume as seems like,
[00:16:13] Brigham: yeah, maybe not quite that much, but that's a lot like 50% increase would be. Yeah,
[00:16:19] Tayson: is a lot but it's it's very knowable. It's a noticeable difference, we all so added drain ports,
[00:16:26] Brigham: Yeah, just make sure every everything that has a pocket on the exterior, not counting the stretch mesh. But yeah. All the side part, the side pockets. Do have little Little drainage ports at the bottom sticking with the pocket theme. We were
[00:16:44] Tayson: fine, maybe your tweaked a little bit on the bottom pocket, bottom pocket, the volume. Got a little bit bigger
[00:16:49] Brigham: volume and the, the expansion of the opening is tweaked a little bit more.
[00:16:56] Tayson: That's more on an angle. Now, if I'm not
[00:16:59] Brigham: mistaken, it's more. So, it is it a water bottle as you're wearing the backpack. The back corner of the pocket has been raised up a little bit. That helps retain the water bottles when you like when you're taking the pack off for lunch or for example, you set up, set it down, it helps retain that or contain that the white, your water bottles for
[00:17:25] Tayson: Saturday and for size reference. You could get two one liter, smart water bottles, and each of the previous Shadowlight. Now, you can still get those in there, but they're just easier to slide in and out, there's more wiggle room. It's not like,
[00:17:39] Brigham: yeah,
[00:17:39] Tayson: and which is nice when you're actively hiking, because you can easier pull them in, and out, while hiking versus kind of like biting it while you're hiking, if it's a little bit overly tight.
[00:17:49] Brigham: Yeah.
[00:17:52] Tayson: Um, top strap, we went from a more or less a single
[00:17:55] Brigham: top strap
[00:17:57] Tayson: to a more wise strap. And we did also add quite a bit of webbing up there for people that were Using the full amount, I guess of the upper roll top on the bag, maybe even you. So I think more or less you can have that rolled all the way up. You know, and then still have just a little bit of extra room there. So it it is there's just more space up there, for sure, if you're putting things on top of your pack or just using the full volume, this is a small tweak, but it's just a nice tweak too. Which is we added little It's called lash points, little pieces of webbing, they're
[00:18:40] Tayson: very light, very minimal, but little pieces of webbing around the pack, so that if you wanted to strap things to say the bottom of the pack, which we don't really recommend, but for load carry and comfort, but there are lash points there, there's lash points up the sides and it just gives you the ability to let's say, you were going to carry a tripod along the side. So you're gonna like, not use the upper side pocket, it's a taller tripod. You'd have another point if you wanted to clip on something, which essentially I'll just throw this out, there's kind of a hack. If you were to use, even our code to UL accessory straps, those
[00:19:14] Tayson: would easily clip in and be adjustable for something like this. You can use string, you can use whatever you want.
[00:19:20] Brigham: Yeah. I mean, they're, they're just little webbing Loops, placed kind of a long beside the bottle, part of the back of the backpack. And, yeah, I would describe it as just To allow people the ability to improvise in like these rare occasions. I I do not consider them something that I want people to go out and think oh now there's lashing Loops. Now, I can just pile a bunch more stuff on the outside of my backpack. This is an ultralight backpack, that's what it's for. So we're not trying to encourage, you know, yard sales strapped down to the back of the backpack. But it does allow those. sometimes there's just trips where there's like
[00:20:02] Brigham: a random thing where if somebody gets injured and they do need to, Take some weight out of their pack, then you can, you know, improvise things. Like if there's an odd thing that you need to carry one day or for a short distance and it gives the ability to just
[00:20:19] Tayson: yeah,
[00:20:19] Brigham: improvise and those are. Yeah, just kind of strategically placed and they're very unobstructive. They're totally out of the way. Like if you're not actually trying to use them you really don't even notice them.
[00:20:31] Tayson: Yep. And we'll come back to capacity. But let's also talk about the material change that we did on the stretch mesh. So after, you know, getting packs back our own testing and stuff like that, it just things happen in the field and you could rip through that mesh back into a really sharp tree. You shove a tent stake down in there and it catches funny things could happen. And so we wanted to look at a material change for the mesh. We ended up with ultra stretch which is a material that we've been using on the skyline fastpack. And it's been an incredible material for us.
[00:21:11] Brigham: Durability is insane. It's a very durable stretch woven fabric,
[00:21:17] Tayson: very
[00:21:18] Brigham: durable.
[00:21:19] Tayson: um so he ended up, we ended up tweaking that you know and we we volumized that there's there's obviously stretch in the ultra grid but you know we volumized it. So there's just that those pockets are still very substantial, stretch Pockets, to be able to put things down inside. So yeah, I mean if you need to pack a rain fly in there, I pack my rain jacket a lot in there, all sorts of stuff that you want quick access to, it's more than enough space in there. I think that's one thing. When you go with this Center zip in the back of this pack. You have to divide that big mesh back pocket that most
[00:21:57] Tayson: packs utilize where we divide them into two and so sometimes you're like oh I don't know if my stuff's gonna fit in there. There's a ton of space in this stretch Pockets.
[00:22:08] Brigham: Yeah
[00:22:08] Tayson: yeah
[00:22:09] Brigham: I mean it's to me this is like one of the more substantial like meaningful improvements that you know, is done by evaluating. Very well worn packs or original Shadowlights looking at what is actually wearing out after 1,000 2000. 3000 Miles and the most wear occurs on those stretch mesh Pockets. So it's it's a no-brainer to just kind of make those indestructible and if you you think about The the use case of what we're usually doing. It usually is a case of trying to smash more things in there and get as much out of that stretch as you can. So there's room for error there. There's there's room to kind of push a little too
[00:22:58] Brigham: hard. Go a little too far with trying to cram things in there and so we pretty much just put something that's Just incredibly tough. That is like, very highly unlikely unless you're putting Like a Knife You know, out of its sheath and just trying to shove that in there, like, it's really hard to damage this Fabric and, and because we made those Pockets, we added more volume to them. And also made them taller or deeper. Like, you can absolutely fit more things in there. You can still Stuff attempt in there, plus more. And it's it's a bit of Peace of Mind on, like, when I use them. That's kind of the way I think about
[00:23:40] Brigham: it is it's kind of nice that I can use this without worrying about what I'm putting in there. And if it's gonna do damage,
[00:23:46] Tayson: yeah. I mean for instance, once the first thing comes, mine is, I don't know why, but I've always put my spoon in my stretch mesh pocket. But a titanium long-handled spoon, you know, it's like a sharp edges. But they're long skinny and they're abrupt edges. Yeah, they're wrapped. And when you're packing stuff, down in here, I've always been very conscious to kind of, almost put my hand down in there to hold that in place. So it still stays vertical is I'm packed. As I'm like, stuffing one of these Pockets, clear full, because sometimes they can turn sideways and start really pushing into mesh hard. And so, that's just an example. Like, if you weren't paying
[00:24:25] Tayson: attention, you did something like that. You're not going to push a spoon through this material. Yeah, tent Stakes. Another like weird one is like a lot of these freeze-dried meals. The packaging have really sharp corners and that like that is something that if you're cramming those down into, you know, kind of the previous type of mesh like you could potentially get one of those sharp corners from food, packaging that like Starts to push through and yeah, spreads the hole. Okay, let's shift gears. We're Gonna Save kind of the best for last, which is really the Carbon Flex suspension, but let's talk about capacity wise in this backpack, to my knowledge. It grew a little bit
[00:25:10] Tayson: incapacity, but we retained the 60 liter name.
[00:25:13] Brigham: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:25:14] Brigham: It's it's a few liters bigger everywhere. So like internally, the internal main compartment volume measurements is 49 liters and then externally. We listed at 15 but it's probably closer to 20. So it's very much over a 60 liter pack and it's a little bit more than than it was.
[00:25:46] Tayson: Yeah, it's yeah. So everyone want to look at that on the external side, you're somewhere between like 64-plus liters, up to 69 liters there. So I will say that like, there's a lot of packs out there that almost seems like they around up. We definitely round down and capacities and almost under capacity. So this pack it does have A lot of capacity I took this pack packrafting for three days to build a pack in there or life jacket. All sorts of things, we took it on the Colorado Trail where we had six days worth of food. I had space, I had space on a six-day trip still. So if just
[00:26:32] Tayson: note that now, Like like it's a, it's a good size pack, right? The one thing I will say though, that I really like about this pack is It doesn't change, weight drastically to drop literage. I would say. So, even if you got a pack that was say, this 60 liter, but most of the time you needed a 50. I think you're still. It's not, it's not too hard to shrink the sides up on this at the compression, straps, roll the top down tight and still hold a very tight comfortable pack in terms of load carry, obviously, when I do a six-day trip, like the Colorado Trail this year, you start off with six days.
[00:27:10] Tayson: It's much more full by the end. It's much tighter. And that was really simple to just shrink it down and it retained, you know, it just It's not going to fill big and bulky. Like you say, if you actually look back at our Shadowlight 60, when we had, because on this model, The Shadowlight Carbon 60, we're not doing a 45. Whereas in the past we had a 45. That 45 was maybe two ounces lighter than the 60. Yeah, it So it's not a massive difference, just take the same identical pack and Shrink. 5 to 10 liter 10 10 to 15 liters out of it. So right, just something that I wanted to note there for
[00:27:53] Tayson: some of you. You might just be like so happy that the 60 liter has extra for some of the others of you. You might think, I don't know if I'll ever use all that capacity. If you're buying one pack to do it all. I love the Shadowlight 60 because I can take it back. I take it packrafting, I take it on Six Day Adventures. I take it backpacking with my kids and I can like if it's an overnight or two night or like I can carry a lot of their gear in the pack to help them. It's just a very versatile capacity size, I was say so.
[00:28:22] Brigham: Yeah. And then I mean all the decision to, to just To update the Shadowlight and just retain the 60 liter model. So the Server. Everyone's clear, we will no longer be making a Shadowlight, 45 liter model. So the only Shadowlight in the future is a 60-liter model. But a lot of that also comes from just trying to learn learn about our like, who's using it and what their habits are, and what Their their loadouts are. And and and and the volume range that is more common and then also looking at historical sales of you know, we sell a lot more Shadowlight 60 liters and 45 liters and so That those
[00:29:14] Brigham: those variables don't necessarily hard and fast. Make the decision, but they definitely influence this decision. And then when you take that information and you reconcile it or you you add it to the fact that it really only is a one or two ounce difference between packs, then the you, you combine all those. And that really does help make that decision that. Yeah, the 60 liter is You know. The the right pack to just have one model of.
[00:29:45] Tayson: Yeah. And that's not to say though that we won't have a smaller capacity pack, right? A little bit. At some point. So but it just won't carry the Shadowlight name on that. So make it makes sense. I think that makes a lot of sense, you know, with the pack of this size to have that additional organization is helpful as you start to get this smaller packs. A little bit less important to have some of those those organization features. So yeah, worth worth pointing that out. Okay, let's shift gears here and talk about the big updates on this pack. Which would be the the Carbon Flex suspension system.
[00:30:27] Brigham: Yeah.
[00:30:28] Tayson: Before we, or, is there something to touch on before that?
[00:30:31] Brigham: I think, I think we're good.
Editor’s note: Pocket dimensions, drainage, lash points, UltraStretch durability, 49-liter internal and estimated external volume, model lineup, and one- to two-ounce comparisons are September 2025 design and testing claims. Actual capacity, weight, durability, and load behavior depend on configuration and use; verify current specifications before purchase.
[00:30:32] Tayson: Okay. So, with the Carbon Flex suspension system, I'm calling it a system because we didn't just change, like, one thing in this. And and it's worth prefacing this too. In terms of This is a backpack. It's primary goal is to carry things for you and stay comfortable all day as your walking and so putting on energy and effort into the harness system, really matters. It's something that we're very passionate about here. It'll be because like to us, if you kind of, you know, principles first design, this thing, you know, carrying carrying weight as the number one thing. And so we don't want to skimp, we don't want to, you know, we want to optimize the
[00:31:16] Tayson: heck out of this harness system to be incredibly comfortable carrying and I am super stoked at how this turned out. So everything was touched on the suspension system. Let's start maybe with the very biggest thing, which is the frame itself. We started with the Shadowlight. Historically was an aluminum tube frame. And I mean, solid frame like we didn't have failures or anything with it, but when we went to design another pack, we designed the CS40 and we started experimenting with carbon. And originally, the idea with carbon was to save weight makes sense, carbons, really light, really strong. And so we, we started testing that and we created the CS40 with the carbon fiber stays. But what
[00:32:05] Tayson: we learned through more and more miles of that, is that it wasn't just the weight, that was amazing. It was the ride of the backpack change. The best way that I can really describe that is if you think about say a longer piece of aluminum or metal and you go to bend that it's got It's it's typically typically much more stiff or abrupt versus if you were to picture something like a carbon fiber fishing pole, where it's got a lot of play in it right now. Our backpack is not like that kind of playful. But that's the very exaggerated example. But what we found is that because this carbon fiber had just even, let's just
[00:32:45] Tayson: say if you're holding the bottom completely solid and it had more like a centimeter or maybe even two centimeters of play in it that translated into a lot of comfort on the trail. And with carbon, it's pretty gets progressively more stiff. So it's a bends a little bit, it gets more and more stiff. And so, it's still have the ability to carry the same amount of weight. Very, very comfortably but I just moved with your body better, it felt. I don't know why this word always comes to mind when I'm trying to describe it, but it's like a Supple feeling. Like it's it's comfortable and just has a slight give to it. At least a
[00:33:16] Tayson: very initial give to it. That makes it really, really comfortable. So after we you know, use that on the CS40. It was really hard for us to go from the CS40, back to the Shadowlight, and not notice the difference and be like, oh, I don't want to have this aluminum frame after having the carbon fiber frame. Thank you. Can't unsee it once you've seen it.
[00:33:38] Brigham: Yeah.
[00:33:40] Tayson: So we made that switch, we you know, we I feel like we pride ourselves and push a lot for load carry and abilities and it just made a lot of sense for us to put continue to put the energy effort there. Even though carbon fiber is extremely expensive, compared to aluminum frames, you're talking like 10 times more expensive to make a carbon fiber frame over aluminum. That's not saying the backpack is 10 times more expensive. That's just saying that's how much we cared about the frame is that we were literally willing to 10x the price. Our costs on a frame because we feel like you guys will like it that much more carrying the pack.
[00:34:18] Brigham: Yeah. I think on the sum of the background is the like the The I guess learning what we did from the CS40. Is actually a very important part of the development of this pack so developing the CS40. Using it testing it and then continue to use that is as been a like, a very integral part of the What is evolved into the Carbon Flex? Suspension and ended up on the Shadowlight. And it's interesting because actually the first modifications that Now, looking back became the Carbon Flex, suspension were all tested on a CS40. Prototype like post-production prototype. So I was taking our existing CS40 and making small tweaks to the back panel, the shoulder straps
[00:35:20] Brigham: to the hip belt and then we were at the, we were all so looking at updating the Shadowlight and so yeah, I had experience with The very beginning of the Carbon Flex suspension before the first prototype of Shadowlight carbon 60, if that makes sense. So, yeah, and that's that just goes back to the constantly. Trying to look, listen, and learn With everything that we make. And so the nice thing about that is you can start to just extract lessons and observations and put them into, you know, new new product ideas. And so yeah, that was, that was a big part of it.
[00:36:07] Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. So The the frame itself comes
[00:36:15] Brigham: in is going to come in two sizes, right now. Yeah, so there's and in the backpack, there's two carbon fiber stays. Yeah. They come in two sizes, regular size is for like the 24-inch suspension and then the short sizes for like the 22-ish-inch suspension.
[00:36:32] Tayson: Something to note that I think is important is Not all carbon fiber is going to be the same, you can have a carbon fiber frame system, that is a tubular carbon fiber almost like an arrow shaft. We're using a stay which is more of a flat piece flat bar without allows us to do is also curved that so that we can get some curvature. You know, helping shift things into the lumbar lower back and and just be more comfortable on the back and set of like here to picture strapping like straight board to your back. You would feel like that's uncomfortable, it's like laying on this hard table. That's right here in front of us
[00:37:10] Tayson: versus a mattress or something that can curve up into the smaller back and back around. And so, We'd use a carbon fiber stay system with curvature in it that we've taken the time and energy to to essentially tune in the carbon in terms of how much Flex We want in it and play and twist and and all of that. So yeah,
[00:37:32] Brigham: so with, with that type of carbon fiber structure, It's it's it's quite easy to. To almost kind of dial up a recipe of what how? Much rigidity or Flex or twist that you want because carbon fiber is, it's layering, right? So you can have stiffer layers in the middle or stiffer layers on the, you know, towards the top or the outer edges or outer surfaces of the stay and, and that that dials in how much flex? But I say, how much Flex or deflection, but, but actually, what a at the same time, it dials in how much dampening of vibration shock and impact there is. And, and that's like that is part of the comfort
[00:38:23] Brigham: that comes with like, the Carbon Flex suspension, there is, yeah. The stays do do Flex deflect and give a little bit, but they also absorb or dampen vibration and shock from, you know, we've talked about it before on podcast. Think of how many steps one takes on a backpacking trip you know like that's a lot of impact and the And fiber. Absolutely helps. Dampen that.
[00:38:50] Tayson: Yeah. So along with that, we didn't just want to switch up the the frame and more or less. We wanted to take what we learned from the CS40. But also refine it even further evolve it and and so we continue to do that. So things that that included were things like well, one of the things that took the most time is dialing in Foam well. So I guess we'll stick with foam here for a minute. Yeah, so
Editor’s note: The aluminum-to-carbon cost comparison, carbon-frame flex, vibration damping, load support, stay curvature, and regular/short suspension dimensions are September 2025 design claims, not guarantees for every load or body. Use current sizing and load guidance for fit decisions.
[00:39:17] Tayson: on The Last Shadowlight, we had a removable back panel, the removable back panel, was a pretty cool concept, it was a pretty cool Theory. What we found though was that one you didn't always want to be taking that pad in and out of your backpack. If that pad to sit on it, or use it as a foot pattern, or something like that, it could pick things up, it could pick up pine, needles, Pine gum debris, all those kinds of things. But then you're putting back on the back, your backpack, and depending on, which way you set that pad down, you may be getting a pine needle into the back into your back or things
[00:39:52] Tayson: so he didn't really love that. The second part though, is because the way you designed that, The weird design. You could give some shifting of that pad up and down because it's basically a pad that's now strapped into mesh elastic mesh, right? So like, is that you essentially pull up the the elastic mesh, you slide it in and then you know, vice versa on the bottom but with that it meant is that as you are sweating throughout the day and movement happening and stuff that pad could potentially shift around just a little bit and that can also be something that we it could it could create discomfort essentially over the course of the day now
[00:40:31] Tayson: was that every time? No was their time that maybe you wanted to like stop and slightly adjust the pad perhaps and so there's one of those things that was just like it was a bit of a pain point. and then I would also say that in the last four years, we've become massive proponents of carrying an one-eighth-inch foam pad. That, I mean, we sell them now, but just, we've become a massive proponent of that, they're just way better for sitting laying using a variety of things. They weigh, you know, two and a half ounces, but they have way more uses way more potentially uses. So, we're just a big proponent of that. And the
[00:41:11] Tayson: more that we started to use those, I would go on a trip with a shot of light and I wouldn't even remove the back panel. I just used the one-eighth-inch foam pad because it was just better for what it was designed to do. And so, So yeah, when we kind of looked at that piece, we're like you know what, I think the removal back panel it's it's not worth the potential downsides of load carry and comfort.
[00:41:32] Brigham: Yeah
[00:41:33] Tayson: and so we secured the back panel in this time, which then meant that we can start to play more with options such as what foams were using and how we're going to vent those foams
[00:41:44] Brigham: know.
[00:41:45] Tayson: So in the back panel we've in fact if you go look at the images on this you'll be able to if you look closely you'll see cutouts throughout the pack that allow for venting and comfort and then what you won't be able to see though, is that on the shoulder straps and the hip belts Brigham did a lot of work on dialing in the foams there, so maybe talk a little bit about what's going on where they can't really see it there.
[00:42:10] Brigham: Yeah, just kind of change thickness and density of the foam in the hip belt. There's more than one layer in certain parts. Even so, like the shoulder straps was pretty straightforward. they're like, we deliberately select a certain thickness and density of foam in the shoulder straps and a note on that is I'm just not a believer in Comfort is accomplished by just adding thickness or softness or whatever, you know to a shoulder strap or a hip belt. So you're not going to see that. We made the shoulder straps, an inch thick or anything like that. But if you achieve like good curvature good contact over the shoulders and across and under the arm and then
[00:43:01] Brigham: use a, you know, quality space or mesh and then dial in the density and thickness. Then It's comfortable in the hip belt. We did a few things with the hip belt but specifically the foam. Yeah, just dialed in how thick we want that foam and how dense and dense it. Eh, Basically what that means. For the person using it, then city is like it affects how soft it feels or how rigid it feels or how playable it feels obviously, that all so affects weight. So we basically balance that, you know, for comfort and stability, honestly, and will kind of move into that discussion around the hip belt as well, but yeah. Typically the foam. That's
[00:43:54] Brigham: that's what we did.
[00:43:57] Tayson: Yeah. And I don't spend a lot of time on this. I do just, it's worth mentioning this. Just the fact that we have foam along the back panel. It is in a lot of ultralight packs that is not the case, right? So there's different. There's different ultralight packs out there so I don't want to, I'm just kind of talking really generals here but having the the regular backpack fabric against your back. It's just not going to be as comfortable. Regular backpack fabric is going to be waterproof. Typically, which means you have a complete waterproof fabric up against your back, that is then sweating and perspiring and, and then anything that's in your pack. There's no,
[00:44:36] Tayson: there's no padding between it. So something could be poking in your back a little bit. If you have a bad load or something like that, you didn't set up, right? Or any of those kinds of things or just the frame itself. Like, if you've got, let's say a aluminum frame, Let's pushed directly against your shoulder blades, right? Because there's no padding there. It makes an absolute difference, which is why, you know, why? We have a piece of foam here, not every ultralight pack does, we believe it makes a huge difference. It also helps, you know, if you are sweating, it does allow channels for some of that moisture to move a little bit more
[00:45:12] Tayson: away from your body or to vent a little bit. Now, there's other venting options out there too. That create like, massive air gaps on your back and There's some pros there for some heat reduction as well, but when it comes to load carry in particular having that weight close in next to your back it is more comfortable to have that that weight carried properly versus pushed out and away from your back. So there's different concepts here. Just wanted to touch on why we do this one. It's for load carry Comfort. It's for moving that heat and that moisture away from your body. So that stuff doesn't potentially jab into your back or just give you
[00:45:49] Tayson: like a very, you know, like a frame touching your shoulder blade and so that's why we, we particularly really enjoy this. This back panel on this. Okay. We this is probably the the next biggest thing in my mind
[00:46:03] Tayson: that made one of the most substantial difference is besides just moving to a carbon frame, which is what we did in the hip belt with the hip belts. We actually Increased the ability for that hip belt to create contact to contact the hips around you. So you'll notice, when you look at the pack now, straight behind your back on the low lumbar, where it's touching, like, right around your spine. It's, it's almost like a more narrow channel and then the hip belt starts earlier. I guess is the best way to describe that, what that allows is for whatever body size you are, it can wrap around, you easier, you know, if you're more broad than
[00:46:41] Tayson: it can just then the hip belt itself will go out with you. But if you're maybe I'm very skinny person, it can immediately start to wrap around your hips and it just gives this really, really good Constant Contact and gripping ability around the hips. And that is really critical when we're trying to transfer weight off of the shoulders into the frame and down into your hips, which is the purpose of having these frames and the load lifters and everything we're doing here. So, Um, that was really, really apparent for me through the prototyping process. But one, you know, towards the end of a lot of the prototyping and when we're getting really close to the
[00:47:19] Tayson: finished product here, going back to that packrafting trip that I was on. I was carrying nearly 40 pounds the entire time, you know? So for I want to say, there's about 50 miles, I'm carrying 40 pounds worth of gear, which is, which is a whole lot more than I typically carry. I'll just put it that way and I was just so impressed. Specifically with that hip belt and its ability to just hug the body, not slide down my back. I don't look. I'm not a guy with like a big, a big butt that helps the backpack stay up essentially and so it being able to just hold and hold in place so well even hold
[00:47:58] Tayson: in place with maybe a little bit less like cranking on the straps, if that makes sense. Just because it's able to hug the body. It really has been a substantial difference in that, and that really comes from just Angles, cut some tweaks that we did there and it's made it's made a big difference. So, Anything you want to mention there in terms of additional hip belt changes, we changed the front buckle.
[00:48:25] Brigham: But yeah, fit factor. there, there's some things about how the hip belt is, is now sewn that Reduces certain kind of pinch points or Buckle points or kind of where the hip belt could potentially fold under load and that is all done kind of. Again, I mentioned that balance balancing the stiffness or rigidity of the foam and and where it starts to wrap around the person. The idea there is there's certain points on a hip belt where it can kind of. it'll give like it's kind of the It's where? it'll almost crease on its own under load and so we wanted to improve that and that's done by having more contact of the hip belt farther
[00:49:23] Brigham: towards the person's back or more you know closer toward the middle of the back and then density thickness of the foam and then sewing lines eliminating certain sewing lines that could kind of A provoke that that buckling.
[00:49:38] Tayson: Yeah. On the front of the hip belt, we went from a basically a single strap. So we've always kind of doesn't know what's called. I don't know what we call like a reverse pull or basically, to tighten the strap, You Pull It Forward, pull forward, pull. However, with this one, we actually went with a double Anchor Point essentially. So you could call this where it starts on the lower part of the hip belt goes up through a buckle and then back to the hip belt. Again, it's still a forward pull. So you it's easy to pull easy to tighten and you essentially have a double run in the line. So it's even easier to to pull
[00:50:15] Tayson: now, but all so it just evens out that contact point. So where you're the foam ends on the hip belt, you still have kind of a wider webbing Channel as it goes towards the buckle, because it's a two-point system where it's coming connecting with the Buckle, or with the, with the hip belt. So that does increase Comfort. That's how it's been on the CS40. We've really liked that kept that basically moved that on to the Shadowlight. And then, let's talk about the pockets for a second. We did this multi week on those, that was really nice.
[00:50:47] Brigham: Yeah, we just improved the zipper function of the pocket, kind of shifted, the zipper placement, a little bit. They just operate one-handed, much more smoothly. Yeah, that you really don't have to pay attention or really give it any attention when you're opening or closing those zippers. I believe the volume is about the same. But it's just yeah, the zipper functionality is just way more functional. You you can
[00:51:21] Tayson: open and close the old Shadowlight with one hand but sometimes it was a challenge and it was really, it was quite easy if they were full. But now what I would say with these ones is they're easy to operate. One handed with their Fuller empty. Yeah and in terms of size, they're large size, the quickest easiest reference as you can. I I mean at least in like a medium sized hip belt, I can get a phone in my pocket. I don't like to carry my phone in my pocket. Actually, we have those Universal stretch mesh Pockets now for the shoulders for the shoulder straps. I love you carrying my phone there. It's really easy in
[00:51:55] Tayson: and out and just gets it out of like my pants pocket. Where it could be I don't know. Bothering me as I'm as I'm hiking or slowing me down or whatever. So
[00:52:04] Brigham: I'll use I I use them for. I put my phone in one usually like a little baggie of snacks in the same pocket as my phone and then I keep my filter so a platypus quickdraw filter and the bag in the other pocket.
[00:52:18] Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. I've I will say I've gotten at least 500 calories into one hip belt.
[00:52:24] Brigham: Oh yeah. For
[00:52:26] Tayson: good size.
[00:52:27] Brigham: Yeah. You could you pack your lunch between the two
[00:52:30] Tayson: that she's profits? It's
Editor’s note: Back-panel ventilation, foam density, hip-belt contact, nearly 40-pound packrafting use, 50-mile testing, buckle leverage, pocket capacity, and comfort comparisons are September 2025 observations and design claims. Comfort, cooling, fit, and load transfer vary by body, packing, terrain, and adjustment.
[00:52:32] Tayson: probably good. Okay, well that kind of wraps up the Carbon Flex suspension system again huge Improvement in my opinion. It's the number one Improvement on this. I would just say to like this is the thing that if you're out there shopping backpacks, Just thinking something to not ignore is the carbon aspect and the entire Harness System, right? The suspension system but it's a big deal. It's a really big deal. Like I say we've we've tennis I guess double down or 10x what we're willing to do on this because we think it's that important and that much more comfortable and the in the field use will be that much better. So it's absolutely worth your consideration
[00:53:16] Tayson: but overall the whole pack, like all of these small refinements just Tuned this thing up incredibly well. And I I would just say like, we went out on the Colorado Trail, we hiked 135 to 140 miles and, you know, six days. No resupply. in my initial thought, when I loaded up and started day one was That the suspension system is so much more comfortable. It felt like I was carrying four days worth of food instead of six, like, like that's like, like, just not that the pack got lighter, right? The pack is basically the exact same way as it was before we added, you know, more durable materials. We added some things like in in other
[00:54:02] Tayson: areas that cost us weight, but moving to the carbon fiber stays frame, allowed us to keep the same weight. What I'm saying is just like because of the comfort of the pack it literally makes the thing feel lighter. So, but going on the six-day trip, some of the thoughts that I had with the with the Shadowlight is It's honestly still my favorite pack. I love the zipper. I like the zipper and I like the upper side organization Pockets even if I'm not doing something where like, you know, as someone who tries to be on the more ultra light side of things. Even if I'm not using the full capacity of the pack,
[00:54:41] Tayson: I love the organization and quick easy. You know, aspects, I love keeping my pot up in the corner. My water filter up there. I love throwing gloves and like Your your toilet kit up in the upper pocket works really accessible. I like throwing my my rain gear down one side of the back mesh pocket and just having like those those organization aspects. I absolutely love about the pack. When I stopped for lunch, you know, I really enjoy just laying my pack down and grabbing that zipper pulling it down and pulling my lunch out of the pack. I don't have to unroll the top and undo, the Y strap. And, you know, those kinds of things,
[00:55:18] Tayson: it's just quicker. It's easier when it starts raining. Like if I got my gloves in an upper side pocket well I just literally grab them zip, the zipper down three inches. And I shove my gloves into my pack, you know or those kind of quick things like they're not they may not be a deal breaker for some but because of those things like they are what make me really drawn to the Shadowlight and just enjoy the use of the Shadowlights. So my, I guess what I'm saying? All in all though, is There's a lot of new Backpackers that will see. This pack can be very drawn to it because it because it takes
