Transcript auto-generated with Google Speech-to-Text diarization and lightly cleaned for speaker names. Speaker labels use first names only.
Tayson: So here's the big question, how do we live a life? full of adventures travel and memories on our terms without being millionaires without previous experience? And without unlimited amounts of time, that's the big question and this podcast will give you the answers. I'm your co-host Tayson and
Dave: I'm Dave and you're listening to the Live Ultralight podcast powered by Outdoor Vitals.
Tayson: Hey, what's up? We'll be tried and Live Ultralight listeners. Today on the podcast, we're going to be updating you. On some things we've been doing around here. We've been a little bit quiet on the mic here, and that's not from lack of work and hard in the office. So, we'll talk a little bit about that. Going to be doing some intros. Today, we are bringing on a special guest who I'm sure you have here for more often than the single podcast as he is a new member of the team here internally, and that would be Brigham. So, I'm going to kind of start off right there and we'll go through this. But after we introduced Brigham go over recap, we have some really cool stuff to talk about. We're going to talk about the design process of our Loft Tech hybrid insulation as well as our new Mummy shaped pads and just really pulling back the covers on some design work and really floating through some of that. So hopefully it's really interesting. You the listeners and we find some some cool nuggets of information for you. All right, So let's just dive into Brigham. All kind of explain how I met you Brigham. I was actually starting to look for design help. I've been designing everything here. Dr. Vitals with feedback from our core team and it was, it was a lot. It was a lot for me to handle. I had a lot of things going on. I knew that I needed a designer and after having hired you, I wish that I had done it even sooner because it's crazy. What we've been able to accomplish in a short amount of time and I'm really excited for that. But So you toss State actually USU up in Northern Utah, they introduced a program recently. That what is, what is the official name of the program? Outdoor product design and development. However, yeah that's a mouthful but it's it's like the first of its kind in the nation. It's it's really their turning out people to do design work. For companies like us So they can, they can build Tech packs. They can, you know, use the right programs. They can pattern make they can do all sorts of things that are just super. Super interesting. So I was speaking in an event and someone was telling me about the program. I ended up getting in contact with some of the people up there and then going up to senior day and it was crazy. Senior day was super interesting. A lot of big companies were there. I mean, the Patagonia is the black diamonds yetis. I mean, just lots of big companies were there. Looking at all these things, the students have done and having done. Some design work, as I was walking around, I saw a backpack that really caught my eye because I, I actually owned one. That was really, really similar to it as like, a 600 dollar pack pack, and I was like, holy cow. That's super impressive. So I stopped at your table Brigham and was like, did you make this and started to pick your brain? So right off the bat just had a really big impression Of you. And I asked you to come out to dinner with me after that, and I'm just kind of hit it off from there. But yeah, So super talented with with the backpack side of things but let's, let's turn back a little bit more and just learn a little bit more about you. Bring them how you ended up in that program and and just kind of touch on your love for the outdoors.
Brigham: yeah, So how I ended up there is I'm kind of interesting. I've kind of been down. Tried a lot of things and this actually my second. Kind of college experience. I have another degree that I got several years ago and was in the workforce and just not really excited about what I was doing and just kind of wanted more in life. And since, you know, I plan on working for a long, long time, I really wanted to focus on something that I had a lot of passion and enthusiasm for I heard about the program at Utah State while I was in the Midwest and then kind of washed it, develop up and then that just kind of just made up my mind that I was just going to jump ship and move my family across the country real quick and kind of dive into something that I really felt like I could enjoy doing for a long time.
Tayson: As product design, been something you've been interested in a long time, or you got that guy, that was making your own gear, or were you just studying a lot of gear?
Brigham: yeah, kind of research and studying, kind of a gear geek and like techy details like a really Um, I have always been paying attention to like, what makes? What makes gear work well, and what is fluff? And what's kind of just you know, works for me in the past and So I always kind of geek out over the nitty-gritty details and So that's kind of that was my attraction as far as that goes. Yeah, well I know that you did well in
Tayson: this program after I met you. In fact, one of your professor three shots to me after and said, hey, sorry, I didn't get to meet you at the senior day. There's a few students. I want to introduce you to, as I said, well, I met this one. Brigham is like, oh, that's when I was gonna introduce you to, like, he, he already had you picked out to To reference to me. So yeah I mean I think he did really really well there. You're designs and stuff definitely caught my eye and we're super excited to have you the four? We we get off the intro here. I wanted to ask you kind of a little bit deeper of a question of just Like what's the most memorable or cool or whatever? You know, backpacking trip that you've done what like his helped hook you to this passion.
Brigham: Yeah. Well as a as a little kid, I liked was one of seven kids and we just played outside. So That's how we entertain ourselves. So I was always just drawn to the outdoors but My. Dad kind of grew up, backpacking in this place in Idaho called the the white clouds. It used. Its more specifically called like the big boulder Lakes white clouds but it's a mouthful but he always talked it up. And then when I was five years old, I got to go for my first time and it was just an annual trip. We drove up from California and went to the white clouds. and I was just, I was like in heaven, it was only like, a five mile hike up to where we camped, but when we got there, my mom realized she had forgotten like all the Utensils. You know, So we didn't have any like Camp Forks or spoon or anything. and So, she didn't let it like, slowest down or Didn't become a negative thing. She just said, well, grab your pocket knives, and some sticks and make your own forks and spoons and that's what we did. and, I had I just loved that like that is like the most significant memory of backpacking I've ever had. And at that time, my dad, A lot of kids and not enough tents for all of us. So we just made Poncho lean tools and slept out on the ground and that like that, right there had me pretty much addicted because it was just like the Ultimate Adventure for a little kid that loved the outdoors, and and also kind of helped it like, solidified, some of my mentality about just like what you need, what you can get by without, and Just how? You can have a amazing time with pretty simple fight kit kind of thing. So yeah, it was. I loved it. Then going there almost every year for Over 30 years. So yeah, I
Tayson: like that a lot because well, we're about to geek out on Tech stuff and super awesome products that will make you trips better like at the cooler. It's not always about him better gear. Like it's better
Brigham: to be
Tayson: out there with with gear you can afford or whatever, then it is to be out there with not to be out there at all. So yeah, I like that I can I can resonate with that
Dave: and then I can have a question on the program itself. Like, when this first came out, you're the first graduating class, right? That program.
Brigham: Yeah,
Dave: I really was interested in it and I was talking to Jason about it and you know I feel like me and bring him probably have this lot of the same interests and things like that. But what would you say that program? Like the number one thing you learned that you can you know, translate into real world? Knowledge and planning and things like that here or anywhere, but just gear design itself. Like what did you take away from that that Sets you up the best.
Brigham: Yeah, probably a couple things. And one of them is like the all-inclusive breadth of like education in terms of Like, we just learned So many. Things about what goes into a product itself. from like textiles I geek out over textiles and just fascinated with them like all the way down to like the solution that makes a yarn that makes a thread and fabric but and then, Business side marketing side, a lot of the manufacturing side. just give me a really like good context and then as far as design, my biggest takeaway was Using a process starting with. Understanding who your user is. And just try and get as much empathy and trying to relate to them as much as possible and learning what the need is. and then, kind of brainstorming how you go about, Finance, finding a solution for that. Need, how are you going to tackle? That that problem really, that's
Tayson: probably the biggest takeaway Dave. I'm sure you can attest to that. You get emails every day of people saying, like I have the most amazing design idea, right?
Dave: Yeah. Like multiple emails a day of people just all these ideas and you know, and I think for you like yeah a lot of people. How many people go through that process of what? He's just. Yeah, exactly. And I think for him like it's cool because like he can look at it I say instantly that won't work you know structurally or whatever it is like all these people have these great ideas but you know I feel if I'm sure a lot of people have these great ideas but they might not potentially work and in the way that we need them or the outdoor industry. Needs them at work like You know, like jackets that are tense and all these crazy, you know, things like that. But I think that's really cool and I really I think that program is awesome in general. I think whoever's not familiar with it. I know outside magazine did a really big write up an article on on the program and what they're doing. So check,
Tayson: they had a booth at the or show this year which we'll talk about shortly. That's maybe that's a good segue. So we've been busy around the office. Dave left us forever. He finally came back and then someone else on a team left. And then we jumped straight into like a website sell and then a Kickstarter like shifting out Kickstarter stuff. So we were slammed and then last week we went out to the or show for two or three days that was super interesting. It was, it was it was really cool. Like we ended up taking three team members out, bring them hung out with me pretty much the whole time and it was So different because a lot of times I used to walk around the show and see a lot of the booths and And just talk to people and do different things. And this time me and bring them were just slammed. We're just appointment to appointment. We were Super Mission focused. It was cool to see that change. I felt like having gone to the show, a handful of times because we just have So much more Direction and we're digging. So deep on every product that we're designing. We've got manufacturers that are just, you know, really anxious and Earnest about working with us and and it's just, it's really changed. There's So much that have changed. You guys have heard of me talk about Outdoor Vitals, you know, in the beginning. And then I was 2.0. I mean, that show, just kind of showed So much of what's changed for us in designing, and you just interaction. So So the auto show is super cool Utah. State had a booth there and they were actually sewing what repurposed materials, I think that's how they phrase it
Brigham: like yeah
Tayson: upside there. Upcycling materials making chalk bags for people for free and getting their name out. But yeah, it's definitely program that's up and coming, and if you have interest in that you should, you should check it out. But So I'm going to talk, I'm gonna be talking super fast that we have a ton of information to cover. Someone wanted to recap and intro, bring them and then we're going to dive into some design stuff. We are just launching some new products and we wanted to take you the scenes on those and talk a little bit about that. So we'll have. Dave, kind of mock interviewing me a little bit as we go through this, but I wanted to start by just diving into first, The Loft Tech hybrid items. We have Loft Tech, hybrid items, we're releasing in the atlas models in top quills under quilts, as well as a mummy style Pad. But I wanted to go back just a little bit farther than, I think I have in the past about, like, why, why have I been working on this Loft Tech hybrid stuff? Why I've been trying to develop it, what's the real need for it? And I think that goes back to a story that that Starts with my dad. So my dad is I was starting to get into more backpacking and get interested in the stuff showing him stuff that I like He started to follow around, and he found this company, that was less of a company, more of an individual. And this individual is very adamant about his views and his views were that he'd nearly died because I think he's down back got wet. And after that, he came back and built a synthetic bag, they could get wet and stay warm. And So, he built this whole this whole business around like this particular installation that was You know, you could it could handle anything, it was the safest insulation because no matter what happens, you get snowed on rained on dump it in a creek. Whatever your bags going to keep you warm and he really down talks. Own bags. So I kind of bit into it. I started, you know, I subscribe to this new newsletter, started watching his videos and it was super interesting and a lot of really, really solid points and So eventually I said, you know, I decided to buy one of the bags and check it out, maybe do some testing for myself. So I ordered the ultralight model from this company. And it showed up in the mail. and, I literally took it out of the box. Set it back in the Box, push this side. I don't know if I've even seen that thing ever, ever since. And the reason is, It was like six pounds is a six-pound sleeping bag that like, wouldn't really compress any more than it was uncompressed. And it's compression bag and I was like, there's no way I'm gonna backpack with that. And So I was all hyped up about all the benefits of something that could get wet and be bombed proof, and you could take to, you know, different types of climates. But I was just So turned off. As soon as I saw what that was like, what the solution was out there. So ever since then this was years ago, years ago and ever since then I've had a lot of interest in figuring out what we could do to Develop a solution that you could backpack with. But that was a synthetic that could handle, you know, crazy amounts of moisture, worst-case scenarios, you know, military situations, Alaska's situations, Pacific, Northwest situations, and and So we've been working and working working on that. So A couple years back and you guys have probably heard this story but just ran across a company that was starting to produce it. They were a machine company and they're producing our Loft Tech insulation. And They build a machine to make it. It was good enough that instead of selling the machine to the big companies out there that they'd already been selling machines to, they wanted to take it to Market and we were their first customer And we learned a lot about that insulation while it had all the abilities to compress and Loft and stay lofted when it was wet. And all those types of things, we learned some of the do's and don'ts we were, we were kind of the guinea pig because we were So fast at adopting that that synthetic. So we fax some may remember we released a top quilt, last March with it and we we didn't love it. We ended up clearancing out half the inventory on day one. We made some mistakes, some design mistakes, again, why it's going to be a huge benefit to have Brigham here. So we we have two eyes on everything and I don't make mistakes with the time splits that I have. And So we cleared out like all the the 30 or 50 degree models, or whatever they were, and then we had another one. That was, it was good, but it wasn't great. I wasn't super happy with it. It was, it was close. I mean, I you could see the potential, my wheels were just turning into my head and So we did one for one batch of it. That was it? And and we started to work on on what was next? How could we take? What? That was an improve.
Brigham: It
Tayson: And So, what what I ended up wanting to test was mixing a hydrophobic down with the Loft insulation. We're again, the first to kind of do that. We worked closely with our manufacturers to make that possible. Thankfully through some of the connections they had we were able to test that out and run it. And what we landed on is this is a premium product. We're trying to develop some of mixing in a low grade down or anything like that. We went with an 800 fill power. Hydrophobic coated down. we wanted to put as the higher, the fill power, we felt like the higher, the fill power, the more it would create stability in that Loft Tech and with that stability, like the more stable, it was the less amounts of downward we'd have to put in because we really want this to be a loft Tech bag. We're only adding down To create stability in those baffles. Make sure that they completely filled out the baffles edge to edge, no cold spots, nothing like that. And So, we decided to use a high-grade premium down to maximize. The stability and reduce that down as low as low as we could. And I mean, what we came out with is something that I think is, like, pure magic. I don't know if you guys have any thoughts on it, how much you've used it? Dave, I don't know if you've used it.
Dave: No. I, you know, not personally just in the field. I haven't used it too much but I do you know the concept of it. It is really really cool. And for me I kind of Wonder like Why other brands haven't done this? Like So if you can maybe talk about, you know, we were kind of the first ones to to find it. But why hasn't this caught on in your opinion?
Tayson: Yeah. I think I have a few answers for that one. A lot of people. In these bigger companies, they're they're more nervous about doing something wrong then, right? It's like don't give me a reason to get fired or don't let me stretch my neck out there. And have something go wrong, because when you're massive massive company, something negative, I mean, it can have big ramifications if you're in North Face and you design a product and you deliver it to 500 retail stores and all 500 want to return the product or mad at you or whatever you heard a relationship and and more So that that acts is going to fall on someone. So they can't do small batches. I mean they don't have the ability to do a small batch innovate. So I think there's some things there but I think the real bigger reason is I know 100% certainty that this is already getting copied or not, I say copy, but because one particular company, is more of the copy style but most of them are already doing tons of testing and it will hit the market soon. We just have a crazy ability to produce things at outrageous speeds compared to these other people. In fact, when we were at the or show, right? Brigham. We had we had a scenario like this. We had two scenarios like this one with our down producer, and one with YKK and and nothing against white KK. I mean, that is not know sliding against them, but they were talking about us, you know, rolling out a new product. I can't even remember what it was. I'll stop my head. Do you remember?
Brigham: It's not on top.
Tayson: It was bad. I looked up my notes. I'm sure I could look at it, but they were rolling out this new product. They talked about us potentially rolling, it out with them. That's gonna kill me. I can't remember what the product was, exactly. I think it's because it was too far out, So, I just archived it in my brain here. Only have So much space, but So I, anyways, we, we talked to him. We're all excited. We're like, yeah, we can roll this out. You know, we've got a good application for it. And So we're like thinking, what? Well, maybe we'll we actually got a time. We get this applied to a design that we're working on right now. It's going to be too late. Like you guys are going to probably want to roll it out like right away. And So we talked a little for that maybe not, or maybe we can do double roll out, or something like that and figure some things out to roll out this new product. And and So, finally I said, you know, we're probably not going to release this product till the spring. And and that to me, like, and that's actually us potentially even holding the product back, which I hate doing. Like if I cannot do that, I'm not gonna do it. But So we're like we may release like the latest would release. This product is the spring is what we told him and they're like, like next year's spring like 2020 spring. And I was like, yeah. And they're like, oh yeah, ours we won't eat Irish. Remember what it was? It was the case sliders. Oh yeah. Is the sliders,
Brigham: they
Tayson: were there doing the anti zip? And I mean it's just that little plastic piece right? The clips on and I mean, they're amazing, don't get me wrong but they're not too complex and they're like oh no we couldn't have have that slider to you tell the fall of 2020 and we're like that's like a year and a half away and that's the soonest. You could get this to us like it just blew our minds like we we could not believe So. Anyways and So like they were talking with these other people and that was perfectly normal. If not too fast. Too fast for most of these guys. I mean, bringing me probably saw this in school but most big companies. They're designing product lines for two to three years out at a time, if I'm not mistaken. Oh yeah, for sure. And meanwhile, meanwhile, you've had one experience with us where we just we've got a tech pack submitted to our supplier and they emailed me like two days ago saying that they had shipped it and that took all of two weeks.
Brigham: Yeah, like yeah, couldn't have been more than two weeks. Yeah.
Tayson: So we've got it. We've got our first sample in two weeks. We'll test the crap out of it. My guess is will do another sample and So we could literally start to finish design a product and sometimes as little as two months, Right? And that's So to answer your original question. Dave, why are we the only ones doing this right now? It's not going to be that for long, but the reason is, I think the reason is we're just faster to innovate and, and just move forward with stuff. I mean, it's, it's just there's no comparison with how fast we can move.
Dave: And then I would say, like, we get a decent amount of questions on the difference between our original Loft Tech and now, our Loft Tech 2.0, or Loft Tech hybrid, which is, is basically the same thing. So maybe Any kind of explained a little bit about it, but just a little bit more in detail. What exactly? The two differences are
Brigham: yeah between
Dave: the two. So like this is what we're rolling out now. So, all these new products that were gonna be rolling out, is our hybrid or 2.0. So, maybe what makes it different? Why someone would want to buy the 2.0 versus the one point? Oh
Tayson: yeah, no, it's a great question. At a super high level. The only the biggest difference is we're mixing down into the synthetic, we're mixing the hydrophobic down into the synthetic. There's only 20% of the total installations. So let's say you have 1000 grams 200 grams that is the down 800 grams of that is the Loft Tech. So that's the biggest and most major difference. However, Like things progress constantly. So the other thing that has changed with this is It's we've basically gone from say a silver level insulation, The Loft Tech itself to a gold level. So the excuse me, the The Loft Tech itself has slightly improved on on the On a fiber level, right? Like on each individual fiber, we've been able to shrink those fibers but maximize Loft. And So basically, the warmth values are slightly better. The fill power is slightly better. So, So we've mixed down in and then we've slightly bumped up the quality of the Loft Tech and what that does is it it creates a more even fill. So the Downs creating this more, even fill, and that's what it's providing to the synergistic relationship and the Loft Tech. What is providing is? It's providing body and it's providing. So when you soak this insulation out, the Loft Tech will stay 100% lofted it and down with typically fail but when down fails it, clumps into a ball and and you can't dry it out very well because it's just this ball of wetness inside your Fabrics. So the Loft take actually gives the down body and because it's all dwr treated, the water just trains right out of the bag. So, We've added down and we've slightly increased. The the quality of the Loft Tech would be the the shortest answer to to the difference between the first Loft Tech and the 2.0
Dave: that I mean, I feel like that definitely clarifies some some of these questions.
Tayson: Good. Yeah, So we kind of gone through most of the story here. Obviously we've we've been able to do a lot with this installation. One thing that I would probably be good for the listeners to understand too is Is to understand that the reason we added the downloads just for the body. And So if we don't need that body, we don't need the down. And So our Loft tech jacket, that is raised almost a million dollars. Now, in presells, a lot of you probably got them in the mail or, or they're already there. But that one we did not mix any down. And So, the reason we did that is because in a jacket format, we can make those baffles small enough, but still functional functional enough that we didn't need the body of the down, So we can cut that out. Give you all the benefits of Loft Tech, which, you know, wait to wait to warm this super high. But also, The wet Factor, you know, sweating rain. Jacket in reality jacket has a much higher probability of getting wet than a sleeping bag anyways. And So if we can hedge it one way or the other, we're going to and that's exactly what why we chose to go with 100% Loft Tech in that jacket?
Dave: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I feel like a lot of people have gotten their jackets and the initial feedback has been really good. So
Tayson: Yeah, I've I've been needing to jump on there and look at some of the comments and some of the feedback but it's pretty exciting to be shipping those and I know we're still finishing up shipping Indiegogo stuff. So if you order on you go go, it's going to be there. They're shortly. So So, let's I want to talk just kind of dive into torture testing a little bit. We've really put this product through the wringer and one of the ways that we did that is Through Torture testing. If you watched our YouTube channel on the past we soaked, you know, initially we soaked in OVI light soaked it in a bucket of water and then slept in it, and was pretty much Drive By Morning, it stayed, warm lofted, and that was a step in the right direction. For synthetics Because that's synthetic was still really compressible and pretty light. But that was about, I think, I think that bag was a 20 degree bag and it was like hi, three pound level. Then we did like the top quilt last year with the 100% Loft Tech insulation. And I slept in that one. That was my worst torture test to be frank, the bag was really wet. It didn't get time to dry and then the baffle structure. So we actually improved the baffle structure the way that we're sewing them the way that they sat because not only was the insulation, not as stable, but the structure of the insulation in the inside, the baffles did not help us. They were much more square and So I had quite a few cold spots but I was really really wet and I should have tried to get a little more water out of that or something hung up for even a few minutes. But that structure was rough. I didn't sleep. Great. I slept right next to a river. The effective temperature I guess was, you know, around mid-30s or low 30s and just sort of rougher night. And then recently, in fact, what was the end June 30th? This video will be published. I did the same type of a test in slightly. A worst case scenario because I was nowhere near vehicle nowhere near a house. We backpacked up the canyon and I took the bag and I soaked it in a river of runoff water, which was just, it was just mud Brown. I tried to filter some of it. I could not filter this water and ended up having to gravity filter it. And, I mean, it was, it was painfully slow. but So I covered this bag in water, soaked it and as well as dirt just covered it and dirt And slept in that bag. And I hung that bag up for for a little bit of time before I got in it. So I hung it up, we went sat around the fire and talked for a while and then by the time I got back to the bag, you know, 80 90%. I feel like of the water, it just drained out of the bag, just that fast. And then I slept in the bag and when I was getting in I didn't even feel it. Like, it was that wet just because So much a drained and amount of time. And then by morning everything in the bag was completely dry except for below my pillow.
Dave: And what we were like the temperature with the conditions there.
Tayson: So I can't remember exact off my head, the video would show that but they were mid to low or mid to high 30s. Was the temperature that my thermometer had said. So it was
Dave: early spring right? That's just
Tayson: yeah. Yeah. And then I guess let's let's look the coolest part about that is not only did it perform just as good. Well, better technically than all the other synthetics that we had tested, but it compresses a smaller and The weight, the weight on that specially compared like that original Obi light bag. I was in a 15 degree long wide and I think the weight on those is like Hi, two pound Mark. And So I think, I think we dropped about a pound of weight off that bag increase the compression compression size of that bag and it still has all the same benefits of water. Benefits is a full synthetic, you know, sheeted synthetic So Yeah, So I don't know, it's been pretty interesting. So let's talk a little bit more about practical application here. When do you think you guys would like switch from a down bag to a loft Tech? Hybrid is the scenarios or
Dave: I mean it's tough for me to answer that because working here, like I have the capabilities to take any thing I want, you know what I mean? So, it's tough. When you ask that question and like, you know, you're different bags and situations and hammocking versus ground and things like that. I guess that kind of depends on the situation a while I'm in like here in the south west on a typical backpacking trip, I'm gonna probably stick with the down. Bound cool, does the 15° down? Quilt is really my go-to but, you know, if I'm at Lake Powell around, you know, if I'm on a kayaking trip or, you know, you're down somewhere on a river, you're, you're on a river trip. I would definitely take the Loft Tech. So I just kind of depends on the situation for me but it's hard to say because I'm just like, oh what I want to take a downer or Loft Tech but depending on where like our winter backpacking trip that we went on, you know, a couple months ago, I think if I could do that again, I would probably take the Loft Tech just knowing what I know now about how wet everything got. And then, once it warmed up, Things were melting and just
Tayson: like it was raining in my tent. Yeah. Literally felt like it was just started raining in. Yeah.
Dave: And like I had like a trash compactor bag that I was trying to keep all my stuff drying because it was down, and just the amount of water that was inside of that. So next year, if we go on a winter, backpacking trip or, you know, I live somewhere where it was cold and snowy a lot, I would definitely take the Loft Tech just the weight to warmth and the size and things like that it really
Tayson: minimal. Yeah, exactly. It's it's really, it's exactly what a 650 fill power bag equates to,
Dave: and then the peace of mind to. I think that's probably the most important thing for me. Like the piece of mine that knowing that if this bag does get a little wet in the snow, that it's not the end of the world, because For our winter trip. I was like, man. If I had to go another night, With this down bag. Like, I'd be fine I think. But I would be thinking about it all day. Like, as we were backpacking. I'm like how much water is melting in the back of my pack and the snow you know because it was actively snowing and things like that. So that would probably be just a piece of mind to have the Loft Tech.
Tayson: Yeah.
Brigham: Yeah. One of the concept that I like to kind of use is like the the idea of like gear Synergy and basically three things are taking into consideration the user the activity and the gear. Well those all aligned you get that Synergy, right? So Like your question. One would you use Loft Tech? Well, who am I or who is the user? What are their habits like? So some people like religiously maintain their gear, super careful when they're wherever they are, when they're using their gear, they're religious about like hanging out to dry every morning, keeping it in like a really good dry sack. So that's like that's the user, right?
Dave: That's I think that's on. That is like where you store it? When you're not that,
Tayson: you know, they store it right? Yeah.
Brigham: Okay. So then like Who Am I, who is the user? That's some of the consider and then what's the activity? Like, if I'm going to the Pacific Northwest and I'm backpacking I would tend towards a synthetic insulation. And if I you actually own, when you came on, you
Tayson: owned a synthetic.
Brigham: Yeah.
Tayson: If you own it down to?
Brigham: Yeah I don't know.
Tayson: You both.
Brigham: Yeah. And So like if I'm somebody that doesn't like to Really worry about keeping my stuff dry. Or I don't pay much attention to it and I'm going to the northwest or I live in the north west or the North East. Like the the synthetic insulation. makes a lot of sense, or A lot of guys and I've done it like go to The Boundary, Waters Northern Minnesota, it rains a ton there in the summer, your canoeing on water for days on end. I have swamped a canoe in two windstorms in the Boundary Waters. Yeah, you use dry bags but I would definitely tend towards a loft Tech bag and that's situation for, you know, and So I think those are important things you can consider. And that's kind of the way I look at things, when I am packing for like whatever. Adventure, I'm going on is You know, being realistic about, am I going to actually be careful and if I feel confident that I am being careful and then I'm going to somewhere dry or it's a very dry season, then there's a very low risk of needing. You know, that that foolproof, fail safe over synthetic bag but it has So many merits that if there is a chance a significant or realistic chance of a lot of moisture. I just rather not worried about it.
Tayson: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. We sat down with our down supplier and We had a talk about. Just a lot of stuff, actually, but but he actually was talking to us about how Expedition gear, right? Like stuff, going to the North Pole, South Pole, whatever their or Everest, you know all these things. They're actually going away from like 900 fill power Downs. You remember that conversation? Yeah,
Brigham: do
Tayson: and I probably won't remember all the ins and outs of it, but he talked about how Higher, The Fill power. You get to That you have to pair it with like the correct Fabrics, right? So if you have a 900 fill power bag and you put it in like 100 denier, heavy heavy shell. It's going to actually compress that down doesn't have the strength, the stability, to lift that back up. And So, what they're finding is that kind of The Sweet Spot for Expedition gear, right now, is actually bringing Phil powers back down to about 650.
Brigham: Yeah, I thought, oh yeah, 650 or 7. It was like right down there where You know, everybody thinks the higher the fill power just, it's better across the board but that was a cool part of that. Conversation was the down supplyer, you know, talking to us about matching the down for the application, which I love that kind of stuff because, yeah, you know,
Tayson: I never even considered that. Yeah, like that in death because it's always just the higher, the fill power, the better. Hi. How are the more money? But
Brigham: then, if you think about, So the higher, the fill power, the more compressible. Why is it more compressible? Because the, the little fluff ball is, is bigger and fluffier and softer. And So here fibers, So, it makes sense that the more fabric weight on a garment or sleeping bag. If it's not appropriate, it's just going to compress that down to where it's insulative Properties, or just reduced anyway. Right? So you bring in baffle size
Dave: on your sleeping bag
Tayson: you? Yeah, you take. You take like like the size of baffles really has to come into consideration, too. You take a 900. Fill Power Jacket
Brigham: and
Tayson: it's sewn into those those smaller baffles write smaller baffles on a jacket. It will do no good over a 650, fill Power Jacket. So there's no reason to spend the money on a 900, fill Power Jacket. If those baffles are too skinny, you know, if you're baffling like you're adding material between the front and back show and you're getting huge channels, okay? Maybe it makes sense. And if you have the right way to fabric, but it was really interesting to see that because it really does matter. The application you're applying stuff too, with with our Loft Tech hybrid stuff. We're still running a 20-day in your shell. And So the tendon you're like, in our down, That's because partially because we have more body more stability in The Loft Tech. And the other part is like this bag was designed to be just like kind of more of a bomb proof show. I mean a bomb proof bag where It can take a beating me, personally, I've already kind of mentioned that I want to use Loft Tech stuff in in Winter conditions but the other situation would be yeah, if I'm going to Pacific, Northwest or Alaska, you know, I dream to go to Alaska in the next couple years and I'd probably be getting flown in some more dropped off for seven to 10 days and you don't know what's gonna happen out there. What if you leave a scrap of food in your tent because you're not ultra careful in a bear, rips your tent down and now your bag is totally exposed. You know, there's just a plethora things that can happen and when you can't call someone to come pick you up in an hour or two hours or can't call Lifeline or whatever it is. You have to be able to rely on whatever it is you brought and So yes I'm going to take a small weight penalty to go to The Loft Tech but there's a few situations where it'll be comforting and I just rather lean towards that side. So leaning, you know, talking about that really quick, too, big things. I wanted to cover before me, we jump off Loft. Tech is Personally for me, if I was looking at Loft Tech but I am a weight conscious person. I think the perfect bag is the top quilt. The top quilt specifically to in the zero degree model. If you got a zero degree loft, Tech top quilt. What you're going to find is that with the top quilt, you can easily vent it. So you can lay it on, you like a blanket. And if you're in 30 degree temperatures, you're not really going to feel uncomfortable. But then you can take that all the way down to, you know, those single digit numbers. You can cinch it up, tighten it up, get it warmer So on and So forth. So you have huge variety there, but then you also still get the benefits of the Loft tick insulation but you're cutting weight by jumping to a top quilt So you're cutting fabric, you're cutting insulation. So that that zero degree loft Tech top quilt. I wish I need the number right, up, top my head, but I know it's somewhere in that two pound Mark, but that's a zero degree bag that you can use in all sorts of situations and have that piece of Mind still. So, you know, if you're someone, who is super weight conscious, look at what the lowest temperature is try a top quilt and you can always vent it So much easier than a bag. And that's just that's just a tip that I in for your buck. So going on the bank for your buck thing. Just
Brigham: built
Tayson: to be a premium bag but inherently in the cost of the materials to make this bag. They don't cost as much as down down is extremely expensive. And So, just by the makeup of the bag, this bag is cheaper. It's a premium bag but it's just going to be more affordable than purchasing that much down. So if you are someone who's new to backpacking, doesn't have the budget for backpacking. Loftex going to be better, I would say than a budget down option because you're going to get all the additional benefits of Loft Tech. So, anyways, hopefully that covers Loft Tech and just lets people really understand it. So
Dave: I mean by you saying someone just maybe trying to get into it, get into backpacking. I really, I get a lot of questions on care. I care for bags and things like that and this This is really a great bag for someone that, you know, doesn't maybe drought their bag. Every time they use it or doesn't hang it up and things like that. So it would really be a good first bag. I don't really think
Brigham: about
Dave: it like that until you set up but it would be its A perfect mix of, you know, you still have to care for it. But, you know, it's not as intense. A lot more, exactly
Brigham: the content.
Tayson: Yeah, totally. So that bag now just to brush on this, that bag. Now, we've released it in the atlas model Center zip, that's in a zero, a 15 and a 30. I think, right now, we're stocked out of some of the zeros. They've been super, super popular because we were released those. We have that the regular size
Dave: Outlet zero right now in stock, but not many So they won't last.
Tayson: The zeros have been really popular, we're trying to get more of them, but we did release those ones in the winter and just take a longer to get some of these back in there. These ones in stock, So we've got those, we've got top quilt and under quilts in the zero, the 15 and the 30, both in the long and long wide, and the regular size as well. And then we released them in the winner, in the mummy pot. And those actually have sold better than I thought. Like I said, we're trying to get More of them in, but we've had a few hiccups. So there is potential if we stock out that will be stocked out for a little while, just with with getting those produced. So, just a heads up on that. So, let's, let's jump to the pad. I think we've all used the pad we've we've used specifically the rectangular pad for a while and I had a few things that had come up in my experience that I wanted to improve on. I don't know if you had any Dave, but
Dave: I mean I love the pad like like for me going to the three inch pad, the thicker pad. I'll never go back to the one inch or depending on the situation but 95% of the time I'm gonna use that thicker 3 inch pad and by what we did now is just, you know, turning it into a mummy patch shaving, a little bit of weight off of it just I think makes it better, you know for me I just a little bit, wait here and there, definitely adds up. So being able to roll it out and the mummy style but still having, you know, the same thickness really is gonna be great. I think, for, for us, and I feel like the pads has to be one of our top sellers.
Tayson: We're stocked out of pads more than we're, then we have them in stock. Yeah,
Dave: I mean, I feel like they really sell good. It's great price point, for for what it is. You know, I feel like competitors I've had other paths that are similar in their, you know, 120 bucks, you know, on the low end. So I really start.
Tayson: Yeah, exactly ones. Yeah, like I mean, to go back to the original design of those pads. I wanted to take, you know, that because I'm a side sleeper, I'm like I'm six two six three and over 200 pounds and So when I sleep on my side in the bag, you know, the pad or whatever's saying something like, oh ticks six breaths to fill up, that sounds great when you're blowing it up but when you sleep on your side, there's no way there's enough air to keep my hip off the ground and So,
Brigham: I
Tayson: would blow it up as hard as I could and then it was not that comfortable, and I just had all these things. So I switched to a different Pad that was thicker and I loved it. I thought I was like night and day different. So I definitely wanted to design something like that but yeah, I mean that you don't have to sacrifice. The comfort for the weight aspect or a different things. And So that's kind of that original. Design came in,
Brigham: you know,
Dave: we've had a few few samples and kind of perfect.
Tayson: Yeah. So So, I mean, to back up after he made those pads, I took one to Colorado and November tons of gear with me. It was snowing. So you just have more gear. When you go in the winter you just pack more gear, more layers. So on So forth. And I had this pattern, I was like, man, this thing is So big it's So comfortable but it's big Baffles are big. It's it's heavy not heavy, like not heavy for I would say it's lightweight our old rectangular long wide was like lightweight. I don't know if I'd call it ultra light. And So I actually started to have this internal debate, whether I was going to take the regular pads with me on a trip, versus the long wide. The regular pad was definitely too short for me but it was it was the weight factor that I was. I was considering in that.
Brigham: And
Tayson: So as soon as I started to do that, I knew that we needed to go back to the drawing board and try to cut some weight out of these pads. And So that's, that's exactly what we did. We, we kept all the same features. Or pads are whiter than standard So I'll have her 22 inches wide. This time we didn't do a long wide model. We just did a long model So both models are 22 inches wide which is still wider than a regular model. From another company, which typically is a 20 inch pad. And and I mean, this is just kind of some inference inside her information. You know, the reason that these other companies are doing 20 inch pads, it's not really because they want to, it's because when that material is made, it's made on a safe 50 inch wide roll of fabric. So in order to get two pads off that role, they have to make them certain width. So it all comes down to
Brigham: costs.
Tayson: So that was a part that was a big part of the design process with this mummy pad is okay. How can I get, how can I do this? Make two rule, you know, get two pad side by side to try to you know make people's dollar stretch farther. And when this taper design really was a great way for us to do that to keep keep our costs from getting, you know, up and above 100 dollar price point and So on and So forth. But yeah, they are whiter. They're 22 inches wide on the shoulder which, which I personally like the 20-inch pads to me, where are just too tight for for my frame. But yeah, I just kept all the same features, you know, it's still three inches thick. We actually were able to work close with the manufacturer and in add a little bit more insulation into the mummy pad. So warmth wise are still rating at the same. We actually shop for a 4.5 r value. We, we estimate that it's a four to be safe, but I think I think people are going to have really good experience with this pad and then, wait wise, we were able to shave off. We didn't shave off a ton on the regular path. We only shaved off about two ounces, but on the long wide pad, we shaved off six ounces. So that long, white hat is only 17.5 Oz now, Which I am super stoked about since I'm a long wide user.
Dave: Yeah, I'm unfortunate. I get to roll the regular Pad, but I mean for me, like that's one thing that I'm not going to skimp on just Comfort wise having a good night's sleep. Like it's just, you know, it's just I'm a side sleeper sleeping on my hip and I've done it, I've slept on the, you know, the the z-pass little foam pads and I'm trying to fold it in half, So my hip has doubled the padding and things like that. But I'm just like for a couple more Oz like practically sleeping on my mattress at home, you know? So
Tayson: yeah.
Dave: I think it's it's well worth it. I'm excited about the new Mummy pads. Just get on, really
Tayson: use them. You know, talking talking about that. You mentioned like you feel like you sleep in your mattress at home? One thing I definitely messed up on a lot. When I first started backpacking, as I didn't take a pillow, I didn't take a pillow and I think about that. And it's like, how many of you guys Sleeping on your nice comfortable, bed at home. If you didn't have a pillow, would still get a quality, nice sleep. Like I mean it a pillow really matters and So people are going out there. They're watching up their jacket, they're sleeping on their jacket, they're putting whatever, in their compression bag, they're sleeping on the buckles on their compression bag, whatever it is man. I wish I could go back in time and just have got a pillow earlier on. It's a funny funny little thing. They don't cost much
Dave: and
Tayson: a half ounces or something like
Dave: that
Tayson: ounces. So that's my Ultra Lite luxury item, that's what I call it but for two and a half ounces, I feel pretty Justified.
Dave: I'd say going back to the pads. Maybe for listeners that aren't familiar. How is the insulation? How does this work? How does the insulation in the pads? Keep you warm. What, what's in there? We belong feathers in. There we go, in synthetic in there. Maybe you can just tell the listeners what exactly is in there that is makes this pad different from a pool raft per se.
Tayson: Yeah, they're the same thing. He's
Dave: gonna pull out, like, go, let me know,
Tayson: like, Havasupai. They'll just take like a pool after that's not about yeah, but but not answer your questions, So, I'll go kind of a step back and explain what happens inside of the pad. So, if you picture a pad cut in half right in front of you, So she like a bigger thicker pad Think of an air mattress, that's like a full-size air mattress. What happens is you sleep on top of it and your body's warm and So it starts to heat the air that the that is closest to your body and closest to the fabric that your body's on. Well, the stuff on the underside of the pad is touching the cold ground. And So now you've got hot hot air in there and cold air in there and while hot air rises and cold air sinks for some reason. It still starts to create a convection current inside your pad and So the are actually starts to move around inside your pad cooling off all of the air inside your pad So that cold air will somehow get to the top mix around and it makes that that Sleeping pad or air mattress, whatever cold. So, what you have to do is try to eliminate the movement of the air inside there and all. So, reflect, or retain as much heat, close to the body as you can. So what we have inside of our Pads is a high Loft, insulation. That is bonded to the top side of the pad and what that what that means is, it's actually glued to the top side of the pad. So, right up against your body, you have insulation, that's trapping, warm air pockets, and then because when we went with this High Loft insulation, it's, it's stretching a little bit further into the pad and it's slowing or hindering more air movement inside the pad. So one thing that we did learn that I you know, potential well I mean I would call it a mistake is in our in our rectangular long wide pad. It runs about five degrees colder than our regular Pat, something that we've we've changed on this long. This mummy Style version. And the whole reason for that is it has the same amount of insulation there. The difference is those baffles on the long wide pad were bigger. They went from a three inch like in the center of the pad a three inch to like a three and a half plus inch Center pad and that difference there creates More potential for air movement. And I have my personal experience is that long wide pad runs about five degrees in the rectangular. So, specifically runs about five degrees cooler than the regular pad did So. So yeah, the size of those baffles, the amount of insulation. So on So forth, So That's why it's So appealing for companies, probably to use less insulation and make smaller baffles, and, and try to get away with in a lab, you know what I mean? Like, it's it tests high on our value. But Comfort wise, when you get to the field, you're going to fill those rocks and So on and So forth. Yeah,
Dave: those dummies, they're using for our value. They take comfort into consideration and that's one of the biggest questions I Ever. I usually ask someone when they're messaging in or whatever asking about what bag they should get. That's the first question to ask is well what what's your sleeping bag? Oh, you're sleeping pad. You know, what's the R value and things like that. And I would say. 70% of people. Don't know they're like, I don't know. I don't know,
Tayson: 70%. Yeah.
Dave: They're like I'm not sure what our value and you know, then they'll go and they'll look okay into it. But I would say, I don't think people take into consideration
Tayson: how important. Well let's talk on that for a second, our value wise. You know, I think a something with no art with no insulation in it is actually a one r value So I'm not mistaken. And then there's a handful of pads out there. That say, three our value. Well, a 3rd value to me would mean I'm not gonna take that pad probably below like 30-ish degrees.
Brigham: Yeah, that's what you say probably three C's in Like, the best are going to do is three seasons. You know,
Tayson: three seasons in Utah is still 15 degrees.
Dave: But I would say the majority of the people that Our potentially back panel, we just camping in general, are probably in, that's three. I don't know what the percentage is but I would say a good amount of people are probably just three season, backpacking, just
Tayson: in general. So I mean, just just So you know though like like I say there's a diagram. I saw of someone who put this into words and they did, they did a really realistic factual test not like a lab test. Not like And essentially, what I would tell people is, if you have like a three r value pad, I probably wouldn't go below like 30 degrees. Now, you jump up to the forearms Here looking more into the teens So on our mummy pads, So we're just releasing right now. I would go, I would easily take those into the teens without any worries if I got into the single digits. I would start to look at what I could put underneath my pad for additional installation. Sometimes that's just like a jacket. I'm not using sometimes that's close So foam pad, but I still have that comfortable pad usually next to skin or next to my body, because it's the most Comfort. But I'll just start layering things underneath the pad. To increase that our value. So, and then and then if I say, if you're really going to the teams or the single digits and Below, you're going to want to look at a pad. That's five of our values are value if you don't want to layer stuff. I find though, if you find something that's in the four valve, for our value range, You get a lot of Versatility out of that because you can layer stuff pretty easily or you can use it throughout your year, one, not one other thing. One other trick is if since like for instance with our pad we've got that insulation bonded to the top of the pad. Well if you're using it in warmer situations, let's say you're using it in 40 degree temperatures and you don't you're worried for some reason that your pad might be hot which we're just talking about this the other day, Brigham. I mean like you're you're mattress at home has like 100% efficiency and you're never like, oh my mattress is So hot. Like it's it's not as much of a deal but if you want to just say you're sleeping in 50 or 60 degree temperatures, flip your pad over So that the insulation is on the ground and set of next to skin and it might drop a few degrees of your pad So some some thoughts there. But anyways So other question on the pad I mean it's I'm excited for it. I'm it's probably going to be the only pad I touch for a long time.
Dave: Yeah. And I'm sure they're going to go fast. I mean, we've just kind of brought them back and stock but we haven't talked about the Updates or anything like that and they've been selling stuff.
Tayson: Yeah. Yeah still come with the pump sack So you can inflate them. All of them still come with that standard pump sacks about three ounces So you would add that to the pad to the pad Waits it explains that on the website as you look at it. But Yeah, I'm super excited for it. We'll, we'll get some more photos and do some more talking about that as, as we have it longer. But I think that kind of dives through a lot of the design and stuff we wanted to talk about Brigham and I have been working on a ton of new stuff. I'm super excited for design takes a while, you know, special for a big company. Takes forever for us that takes still takes a little bit of time So we're hoping out some pretty cool stuff, you know, in the fall to rule out and maybe even sooner with some other stuff, but yeah, stay tuned. We'll probably leaked some more information there on different things. We had just We're got a ton of stuff. We took away from the or show as far as things you can and can't do. And So now we're kind of using those and coming up with some cool stuff but Yeah, for those of you that are listening right now, though, these new products that we're just releasing you can get those at discounts on the website. So if you go over to the website right now until July 7th, you'll be able to get those for 15% off. That's our launch special pricing. So that includes all the Loft Tech. 2.0 stuff, we just released the mummy pads. It's gonna be 15% off. Plus we have a handful of kind of free swag items as you order. So at 99 bucks you're going to get a free shirt that says take less Seymour and it 199 dollars. You're going to get the tenacious Pace. Tenacious Tape, repair kit. So That's something I take with me all the time. Can repair, sleeping pad, tent, jacket, sleeping bag, whatever it can kind of repair it all. So it's about a half ounce little tube that you take and can fix it all. So, you'll get all those, if you, if you order before July, 7th. Yeah, super excited about these new products. Super excited. About just all that we have going on here. Before we jump off, we did want to talk about a giveaway winner, right?
Dave: Yeah. So our last episode we did say we would give one of our Atlas 15 degree down model. So this is one of our older bags and the winner is a b in Envy. So a b in Envy
Tayson: I am and
Dave: yeah like Nevada maybe. I don't know
Tayson: in Nevada. Yeah.
Dave: So if you're listening give us a shout out at support at Outdoor Vitals and we'll get your bag sent to you.
Tayson: Awesome. Well if you guys enjoyed this type of an episode, let us know if you shoot an email in, Dave will definitely see that and we can build on this. You know, we enjoy sharing all the information, we can all knowledge that we can talk about kind of the behind the scenes stuff. So if you like that, let us know all. So go ahead and share this, you know, take a screenshot on your social media if you learned something valuable. And then and then obviously, if you haven't left, or if you go to iTunes or what is it Stitcher?
Dave: Yeah, iTunes and Stitcher, you can leave comments. And those are really the best ways to kind of see what, what episodes, and what we want to talk about in the future like this episode would bring home is really good because our previous design episode, really got a lot of feedback on people want to know more about, you know, designing the gear and what the thought process is. So it's perfect that we move out bring them on and to this episode and hopefully he'll be on other episodes as we roll out, new things, new gear, and what the thought process is behind, you know, that stuff and bring them is very knowledgeable too. I mean, he didn't really talk about his background and guiding and things like that. So that really helps with sometime overseas.
Tayson: Spend some time. Guiding. Yeah,
Dave: So that really helps with. I feel like his infield knowledge of, you know, what we want to do as a company in the direction that we're going, you know, we have lost that 2.0, we have all the vitals 2.0. And I really, I really like the Direction. And I think that the customers, the listeners will really like this new Wolfpack product in my opinion. So really excited. So just keep the comments coming feedback on what you like to hear. If you like these episodes. Just, you know, us in-house talking or more interviews style questions, just drop us a comment.
Tayson: Yeah, we will definitely dive into design a little bit more heavy as well. We have a lot of information to cover on this podcast So we did it that way in the future. I think we'll, you know, we'll try to break it down as micro as we can and try to explain every little detail. A lot of you guys out there and I know your gear heads and you love to know those details So we'll do our best to to cover it all. So thanks for listening, we really appreciate all of you that are listening to the liberal ultralight podcast. Stay tuned. Make sure you're subscribed and we'll catch on the next podcast.
Dave: to help us spread the word about the Live Ultralight lifestyle, please give Us a five star review and tell your friends to subscribe where available on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, and have you made your listening app as well as little like.com. So, thanks for listening.
