EP 11 - Backpacking & Blisters

Tayson: Here's the big question, how do we live a life? Full of Adventures travel and memories on our terms without being millionaires without previous experience? And without unlimited amounts of time, that's the big question and this podcast will give you the answers. I'm your co-host Tayson and I'm Dave Kahn and you're listening to the live ultralight

Dave: podcast powered by Outdoor Vitals.

Dave: All right, on today's

Dave: episode we have Carl and Derek from backpack and blisters. You guys want to tell us a little bit about yourself, your backpacking experience, your Outdoor Experience and then we'll kind of take it from there.

Carl: Sure, yes. So yeah, my name is Carl from The backpacking positions podcast, and then backpacking about 23 is years and got into it. I got invited to a kind of an outing with my basketball team in high school and we went to Joshua Tree National Park and yeah, it was great so that kind of inspired my backpacking career and spent some time quite a bit of time, this year's assembly Sequoia and have since moved to Colorado. So they can cast Rock Colorado right now. And in busy exploring, the other part of the West. So yeah.

Derek: Look at you buddy. This is Derek Carl's everything. I've been backpacking for probably with Carl. How long has it been Carl? Like 12 years, 13 years,

Carl: exactly 14 years.

Derek: It's been a while and then I've been backpacking that's been like the official backpacking realm. I think I've been backpacking a few times before that, with some other friends. But nothing is a nothing is a life-changing as with Carl and the Gang. So, um, I think I started mainly, we started in Yosemite National Park and we've been all over all over the place since. So um, it's been a journey. It's been great. Yeah, I love

Carl: its kind of side note Derek's famous, especially in our podcast. This is kind of the thing that people find most interesting is when I invited him on his first official backpacking trip. This is back in 2005.

Derek: Legendary.

Carl: His interpretation was, I'm not gonna bring it backpack and bring a fanny pack. My

Derek: my expertise that we're going to talk about is going lightweight guys, I'm a professional lightweight Backpacker. So right, the best, Who would want to bring it backpack on a

Carl: backpacking trip.

Derek: Right? Is there really needed? Is it really needed? I don't know. I

Dave: feel like the way ultralights going nowadays that in a few more years that might actually be a reasonable thing to bring fanny packs are getting big but fanny pack only

Derek: exactly.

Dave: All right, of the game.

Tayson: That's right. You started the whole movement.

Derek: I'm a guy, I'm a guy started the transit time.

Dave: So,

Tayson: so you guys have the podcast, backpacking and blisters and you're in your third season. Does that mean you've been doing it for three years? Or is that how you do your Seasons?

Carl: Yeah, so we yeah, we just finished our second, so we're about to start kind of our in between summer season. We do like one a month in the summertime and then we're gonna kick off our third season, come September. But yeah, it's been, I guess two-ish years and it's been good. Yeah, we've loved doing it. And we've had a lot of good feedback, and it's definitely different take on backpacking than your typical

Tayson: backpacking podcast, what do you think there? I think it's, I think it's a fun. Listen, you know, I mean, listen,

Derek: having people, listen to me, put up with Carl, and I think makes it enjoyable. I think most part, but we have a lot. We try to like incorporate like a lot of like knowledgeable stuff and a fun way. And then we do a lot of like random things as well.

Tayson: Yeah, I mean, I mean I will always remember being interviewed on your podcast by some of the questions you asked. And now that it's my podcast, I get to return the Favor, I guess, say. So you guys had asked me, you know what? Lord of the Rings character mostly

Carl: right.

Dave: It was good.

Tayson: I'm just I'm not gonna Branch off that far but I'm just gonna say you know, which Disney character do you best

Derek: resonate with for each of you? Carl told me he resided with Jafar the other day but I don't know.

Dave: That.

Tayson: It was good, right?

Dave: Yeah, I would say no Marvel characters. They don't fall into the fan Star Wars.

Derek: I was gonna say Thanos but okay,

Tayson: I think for me, one

Derek: of the characters, I really always like this Flynn Rider from Rapunzel. I think, I just like his adventures kind of You know, Spirit of kind of going with the flow and

Carl: right

Derek: getting into a little bit of Mischief, not too much. But like the good version of him before, he was like a thief or after he was a thief. But there's two versions Eugene, there's Eugene and there's Flynn Rider. Yeah, so

Carl: that's an interesting answer. Derek. Actually, on our podcast, this isn't, this is right on par with where we usually go with conversation and Derek's actually giving himself the trail name of Snow White before.

Derek: It's not true,

Dave: not

Derek: true. Carlos to twist that. I said it's bro. White first of all because There's already a snow white but it's bro, white because I felt like the, the natural, you know, realm of animals. Like just they tend to flock to me. They love me and that's, you know,

Tayson: So you're the one that the mice and squirrels are always getting in your tent and

Derek: that's

Tayson: me. I just freaking havoc. And

Derek: okay. Exactly, yeah,

Dave: well

Carl: since we're living in Fantasyland, I guess I gotta go with Hercules,

Tayson: Hey,

Dave: that's a good

Carl: happy because that's legit. Like, I'm not

Derek: trying to be realistic though, Carl. Yeah.

Carl: Because Disney characters are pretty realistic for sure. So yeah I'll stick with that.

Derek: Why. Why? What's the why? You want to dive into that?

Carl: I don't know my Disney very well. I'm trying to think in masculine here.

Derek: He often gets stuck in them opposite day. So the problem is like you know if you listen to the podcast like you're gonna learn Carl has a weak shoulders and I'm just thinking like Hercules is not have weak shoulders, I didn't know. Where that was stemming from every Hero has their weakness. But okay, I mean, you know,

Dave: That's a good question. Well going going back to your podcast, you said you're you're in a little break. So what do you guys have going on? Now, in your breaker coming up in the future? I know you have some trips planned and things like that so maybe you can talk about

Dave: what

Dave: you do in your off time or your break time from the podcast.

Carl: Yeah, Derek, what you got going on?

Derek: I think right now just spending time with my family, my kids, I'm trying to. I'm actually trying to exercise more. I think, you know, since I had, I did a vegan challenge was vegan for a while. And I think I knows how that changed my body and I wanted to Work out more and exercise more because I felt like it might help on the trail and so we had a couple of episodes or one episode, maybe two Carol, I can't remember with some kind of Fitness expert guys. We had one for sure with the fitness expert guy and I got some good information on that but just Try to stay more fit and stay in shape, more, you know, we're getting older and it's it's important to stay in shape and it could only help on the trail. I feel like. So

Dave: yeah, that's

Derek: what I've been doing. Yeah, surfing exercising, things like that

Carl: Dirk has it Jack is challenged by anything uphill, so I think he wants to be better.

Dave: That's

Tayson: how much time are you guys spending Outdoors? Like nights a year? Are you like a weekend type thing? Are you doing bigger trips? Just a little Sinners. Can kind of get to know you and maybe you're just like styled with backpacking.

Carl: We yeah. Dare Derek Scott, I'll speak for Derek actually. Oh thanks with having two special needs kids at home so he didn't get out quite as much. So he kind of goes on our one, big July trip a year. So we're gonna be heading to Olympic National Park. This kind of mid July and we have typically anywhere from like seven to eight guys going on that trip and it's just we've been doing it forever

Derek: and

Carl: For me, I try to get out more often and incorporate the family. So I'm typically out four to six times in a Year's first backpacking. Not to mention, you know, camping and such. And so I've got so, we're gonna go my family's gonna go somewhere in Colorado, I think this month or next month. And then we, and then I've got, you know, we've got another trip planned to Glacier or trying to get out to Utah in the shoulder Seasons, quite a bit that we just found Utah's like the best place to go when you're talking early spring or late fall.

Dave: Yeah,

Carl: October's great time. Yeah. Yeah. And so we went to. Yeah, we went to King and lands, Last October actually and then just last month we were in Capitol Reef National Park and that was great. So yeah we try to get a lot. I'm on the trail at times. I do a lot of trail running and actually this summer in our podcast we we covered this kind of big movement called the fkt or the fastest known time movement where people are trying to It just, you know try to race essentially each other by using GPS and who can be the fastest known time. Whether it's the Grand Canyon rim to rim to rim or whether it's the geometry or whatever and we decided we wanted to get a fast no time and so a group of us are going to do that here in Colorado and Lost Creek Wilderness and we got a 37 mile loop. We're trying to to do within our goal is kind of in the 12-hour range. And so as we've spent a lot of time training for that and you know, doing a lot of elevation games and such so yeah, out on the trail quite a bit for sure. I feel for you Derek. If this is who you're hiking with

Tayson: running and doing faster, sometimes I would feel your pain too because that's not me.

Dave: We have a couple people on the TV here like

Derek: And he got even in perspective, I think I estimated their 12-hour time to be like 15 but you know, I think we I do I try to get out. It's harder for me to get out over here now, but we have like local trails and things that we can walk around by the beach, but you know, Carlton Colorado. It's like a playground. Yeah. So he that's your biggest. Passionate life is to like outdoors and all that. So he loves that I do too, but it's hard for me to get out there but Right. So yeah. 15 hours, buddy. 15 hours for your fkt. That's what I'm saying?

Carl: We'll see.

Tayson: Yeah. And so if you guys always been interested in lightweight, backpacking, ultralight, backpacking? Or is weight? Not as much of a factor for you. I mean, I watched I pulled open a few of your YouTube videos. I saw someone wearing a toilet seat or something. You know, you don't know if weight is like a big factor for you or not just wanted to get addressed that really quick.

Derek: Well, first of all, I don't know where you guys go to the bathroom, but we bring a toilet so.

Dave: No, I think, I think Carl Carl.

Tayson: This is the porcelain toilet seat. This isn't like a plastic little ring. I mean, this was a legit

Dave: blow up. Toilet seat.

Tayson: Not even blow up toilet. I mean, this was a toilet

Derek: actually. Funny. Isn't that one of our guys brought a heavier toilet seat. That was probably what Carl like four or five pounds. Was that fish one that rock. That was

Carl: Okay. He explained what the thought behind this? Let's get back to the original question, though. So Derek, are you

Dave: aside? Oh

Carl: God hijinks. Are you would you consider yourself an Ultra Lite Backpacker?

Derek: Uh, yeah. I would I was gonna say I feel like you and I tried to do that more than anybody I think. I think because of my first year of after the fanny pack year, of course, the first year I brought a backpack. I think it was like, you know, we did red pig pass in like, what two and a half days or something like that. And I think I I just didn't understand like, you know, what the weight would do to me over all that mileage and So, I think from that horrible experience when I got, like, over 17 blister on my feet. Hence, backpacking blisters. I I just, I just figured, you know, like I never want to feel this pain again. So I'm gonna try and go as light as I possibly can, but still try to make sure that I have everything that I need. So I, you know, I just trimmed up a lot and like my backpack now is considered like the guy already has like this is a day pack. I'm like, no, it's not man, this could be a backpack and so I made it into a backpack. I was like Backpack.

Tayson: So a pocket on the fanny pack, it is a back.

Dave: Exactly,

Derek: exactly. So I think, you know, and Carl and I, you know, I I kind of look forward to Wing my backpack over here with Carl now to see if I can beat him.

Dave: So, yeah,

Carl: I don't know that we do bring one of those luggage scales to weigh in. I start a trip just to make sure that we're not. Crazy inappropriate in terms of kind of who's carrying which year and stuff. But I would say we definitely are ultralight fanatics. Not because we want to have the lightest pack out there but we want to have the lightest kind of Base weight with some rsf so that we can carry some other luxury items or

Derek: right

Carl: in our case. Ridiculous items for whatever purposes we have. So when you're mentioning the toilet seat cover, we we have this award for our group, this Annual award, we call the Strider award where who can do or bring the most ridiculous item and so that inspires some pretty crazy stuff and some of the steps quite heavy, we've had people bring or one guy in particular. He brought a set of horseshoes which you know metal horseshoes, which had to wait 10 pounds

Derek: standing. And

Carl: so, he's an ultra black guy. He has legit ultralight Equipment, but he also has the fitness and strength to be able to carry that. So, Our ultralightness. I guess so sort of enables Ridiculousness that makes sense.

Tayson: Yeah.

Dave: Like

Derek: that.

Dave: It's pretty pretty interesting challenge. I would say we have to stop. Yeah,

Carl: I

Tayson: like it though

Carl: because more partnering groups out there.

Dave: Yeah.

Tayson: Yeah, it sounds like it. I like that though, because I think, people get hung up on numbers for the ultralight backpacking and maybe it's a game, maybe it's whatever, but they get really hung up on the numbers. When reality like I, my personal opinion is ultra like backpacking should be for increased Comfort, right? You don't want as many blisters on your feet, Derek, because you're hiking this far and and so that's a great thing. But if you if you go sometimes people get too extreme where you're cutting out Comfort. Once you get to Camp significantly and that's where I draw the line. That's it's interesting. You guys are doing it that way and then, you know, attacking on something funny like that. So,

Dave: I mean, I love my luxury item, so I'm always bringing along something that, you know, if it weighs a little bit more, it's worth it for me. But like you said, maybe I'm bringing a super light quilt, or, you know, half size sleeping pad or something like that or something, to bounce

Carl: it

Dave: out. I don't

Tayson: need to be considered ultralight, but half of his gears Ultra Lite half is left. anyway, right

Carl: podcast and we had John last year, were you said Essentially like you can only get so light at some point, people are going to realize that they're sacrificing so much that you want to bring some of these extra items to be comfortable around camp. And so, I think we're already seeing that where, you know, these Camp, these backpacking camp chairs. There's there's some like hotcakes because people are willing to carry that extra pound, they're willing to shave with their sleeping bag, but carry the extra pound with the chair. And so I think that that's just part of the, I don't know. The latest backpacking culture.

Derek: Yeah,

Tayson: no I I like it. I'm on board with that. I think that whatever you can make ultralight we do and what you can or I mean everything needs to be quite conscious but

Dave: you

Tayson: can't write can't bring it in at the expense of other things.

Dave: Yeah.

Derek: So that's why I'm not really looking forward to part of this year is I will say, I have to wear an apple necklace made of apples. So if you've been following on our, I'll explain so on our podcast, there was this little wager. And I lost this little wager with Carl and so I am required because we're going to the Pacific Northwest and allegedly. There's Sasquatch out there but Carl believes in. I'm required to wear the bait, which is the Apple necklace for the trip. So that's going to be an extra like what like pound maybe pound and a half or more of like just apples around my neck, which is kind of like not enjoyable. So I'll be eating a lot of fruit on the trip to say the least.

Tayson: Or somebody will ya

Derek: or somebody will?

Dave: Yeah, I'm gonna bring it. Maybe I'll get attacks.

Derek: Maybe I'll get attacked maybe bro. White in the Sasquatch, will be a movie coming out.

Dave: Well, let's go back to that, I guess your, your Olympic trip. If you want to explain a little bit of what you're gonna be doing. Who's going some things like that? I'm really curious. And the planning of a trip like that. Like a bigger group,

Carl: Yeah, great question. You have trip planning is has become more challenging. I think is backpacking. And just our population, General has grown. There's it's just harder to get permits now we found and so before, I mean early on, when Derek first started going with us we would just roll up to Yosemite, for example and get a permit just day up and just go where we wanted to go. No biggie. And now we're talking, you know, you gotta put in for, oftentimes six months in advance, just to get something. And then the larger the group The you have the less likely to get your permit so we actually tried to go to North Cascades National Park and we had seven guys going and we could not land a permit. So the Olympic was our backup plan I suppose and yeah just it's funny the difference between 6 and 7 guys oftentimes is kind of tipping the scale where it makes it difficult to get a permit. So we kind of on the Fly, I had to look and see where we could go and try to find a spot that where we could, we typically go four days, three nights and we found one, but it's a point to point, so it's going to end up causing us a little bit more money with trying to get a shuttle, you know, tune from the car. But yeah, so just the guys were going with are typically just guys, we've been going with for years and years and this is our one kind of Meetup each year. We try to dig into each other's lives. Have have really deep conversations about what's been going on challenges and life and feed each other, wisdom or appropriate, and have kids get some good campfire chat. So, it's, it's kind of a trip slash retreat at the same time where we get after it, and I don't know. How would you describe

Derek: Derek? Yeah, I would, I would kind of piggyback on that. I I think a lot of the guys including myself look forward to that trip. Just to not only, you know, get away from everything but just really, you know, this is our one time of year where we all get together and we all get to kind of re-bond and reconnect in a deeper way without all these, like distractions from normal life. So I think in that round in that regard I think a lot of guys look forward to it. And, you know, you can have these good talks that you normally don't get to have, you know, a couple of these guys live like not far from me and not far from Carl and it's just a good opportunity for us all get together once a year and can't reconnect and I tried to help Carl a little bit this year with the planning so I took all the California guys and like we arranged all the flights and and got all that going together. Just to like lessen his headache a little bit because I think you know him and I will talk in more detail about the planning and and so I have a better hopefully understanding of what he's got to go through to plan and like and then, like, I see how this these things. Unfold. Sometimes I'm like man. That's gotta suck so bad like to go through that stuff. It's frustrating. It's really frustrating. So I'm just trying to help him out a little bit, but it's yeah,

Tayson: it's definitely a pain point. I mean, I I just want to kind of step in here and say this. I legitimately think

Carl: that

Tayson: one of the primary reasons people don't get out, is the pain of planning, it getting on calendar, getting prepared and doing it. I remember in college, a lot of my buddies, They they got mad at me, once when I like, got a girlfriend. They're like, because I quit hanging out of them. They were like, well, we don't do anything anymore and I'm like, well, you can plan it. You know, you can do stuff and they're like, oh yeah, that's hard. You know, I don't want to do that. And and so they will end up like not doing anything. But as anyways, it was just like this whole concept, but

Carl: when I look at where you get like legit disappeared, once any of the girlfriend were you just kinda

Derek: hear that guy, you're that? No,

Tayson: no. It's just, it was, they wanted me to bring the girls too, you know, I'm not bringing that too, I'll find

Carl: the date.

Derek: That's ringing that anyways,

Carl: so how to bring girls? That's it, that's it. Yeah.

Tayson: On your next podcast with me, I will describe that and anyways no like but it's it's a huge thing. Like even now and the friends that I have that maybe have families or kids like they're never gonna go on a camp on a campout even or backpacking trip just because you can't unless you have all the gear ready, it's all ready to go. You can't just decide the day before and go, like you've got a, you've got to take inventory of what you have, what you don't have who's coming potential. Whether if you're hiking, if your car camping, like there's pain involved with this planning process and I think that a lot of people let that stop them. It's crazy. I mean that something that little kid, I mean, it's not little but the something like that could stop you from doing it but I see it time and time again with my friends and with different people that just that little bit of pain and involvement. You know, I don't know if it's just the society, we live in where everyone's just. So in the moment all the time and they're not thinking ahead at all or or what it is. But I know I got our podcast, we talked about, you know, whether it's Money or experience

Carl: or or time that keeps

Tayson: people from from going out. But I want to dive into a little bit further because I think that that almost could be added in there that people aren't doing it because they're not taking the time to plan it and and just just prep for it. Like if you don't plan it, you're not going to do it and that's just, that's My Tucson here. I gotta. Yeah.

Dave: So I think with tasting things kind of like maybe what kind of tips and tricks and things, maybe. Do you have to help ease that burden? Because I feel the same way. I usually take the burden of of planting the chips because maybe, you know, it's more of my background. It's something I'm more experienced with the permit system and things like that, but I also find it easy to maybe delegate say, hey, you might be in charge of the car you're in charge of, you know, a place to stay before or after flights, whatever like that. So, maybe how you guys divvy up the responsibilities or something like

Tayson: that?

Carl: Yeah. And I feel your pain Dave because every group I mean I think was that you have to have somebody that is gonna be the trip planner and if that person is good at delegating that's helpful. But who are you delegating to at least with my friends, Derek has proven to be a trustworthy partner in this, but I would not delegate to certain guy on the trip because simply things wouldn't get done. So, sometimes you have to take that on yourself. But

Dave: so

Carl: a couple of thoughts I had as you as you guys were sharing is first of all. Yeah, you're gonna go someplace popularly National Park. Then. Yeah, you start looking in January and that's it, makes it easier to get the dates on people's calendars now, because you're playing so far ahead. So you can get those on the calendar before they start filling up with other things. But if you do want to do the last minute trip, and you don't want to risk it by showing up for whatever walking permits or left, you can simply go to areas that tend to border the national parks national forest or BLM land. And a lot of times, they don't have quotas systems and so you can simply simply Show up sometimes right to the trailhead and just sign in right there and boom, you've got a spot so it's not out of the realm of possibility to do that. But definitely the burden on the trip. Planner, not only for planning, but also, you know, for cost because when you're talking about gear, typically, the person in charge is going to have a lot of the group gear and be responsible for the group gear and so you're gonna yeah, they're gonna be using your stuff with it. Your stove, your water filter, you know, bigger tent, whatever it is. And then if you're talking about flights like, you know Derek you went ahead and just purchase flights for essentially four guys. And so now, Again I don't know if you guys have the same issue but are these guys going to pay Derek back you know maybe maybe not yet be willing to take that risk I guess

Derek: yeah well I mean if you want your trip to flow smoother because otherwise it's like look oh hey I found this great flight online, go buy it right now that's like asking the impossible almost for some of these guys. So I talked to Carl about this as we know I'm going to take it upon myself just to buy the tickets and then trust that these guys that have known like my whole life wouldn't pay me back but there's been trips for like, you know, they don't pay Carl back for this or that, you know, food or you know, little smaller things or whatever. And so this year, you know, we're we're getting the rental car, we're getting the flights. There's a lot more pieces moving in this one. So if I can make it easier, I will. And you know, I'll just harass him. If they don't pay me back.

Carl: Did you throw the money out there? Like in? Try to get people pay back.

Dave: Um, it depends on what it is. I'll try and booking. The hotel or whatever it may be that has like 24 hour cancellation or something like that. So I have no problem booking a car in advance or hotel or hostel or whatever it may be in advance alongside know that, you know, A month ahead of time. I know who's coming, or who's not coming for the most part, especially if flights are involved, and then I can easily just cancel something like that and then whatever the permits might be six dollars. A person

Tayson: that's a surprise, Dave has

Carl: contacts with the Credit Agencies, so he just turns his friends, right? Yeah.

Dave: That's a good method. I never thought about maybe. But yeah, so that's for the most part, kind of what I'll do. Flights. People are kind of all over Colorado. Pennsylvania. So they're on their own for the flights. I for sure. Wouldn't put the money up for a

Dave: flight but

Dave: it's a really, yeah, really does it. And these are real,

Derek: not too bright but that's what I'm gonna do. But, you know, I think I Carl teases me about this but I try to make it easier by incorporating like those online apps. You know, like venmo, he's square cash type. So yeah, you know, he's been right now. Spin me right now and you don't

Tayson: know, just send them the builders request, the money. And

Dave: yeah, and sometimes like with food prep, I'll usually go and and get all the food prep, it things like that. Break the meals down for them.

Carl: Oh, nice and well, just pay me back. It just your friends are more responsible than mine because yeah, you talked about a month out, people are committed. They're ready to go over the years, I've invited a ton of people and introduce all sorts of folks, to backpacking. And I found, I mean, you just last month, the Capitol Reef trip, we had day of, like, I'm about to leave. And somebody's canceling on me.

Derek: Yeah.

Carl: So

Derek: Carl's really asking, where can you get better friends?

Dave: We'll have to start going together. We'll make it right. Do a podcast Adventure

Carl: that was my passive aggressive way. Saying, Dave came by me.

Dave: But yeah, I definitely I feel your pain on that. I mean you even said that you do some trips with with your kids and things like that. Is

Carl: that easier or harder?

Dave: Do you think planning a backpacking trip with kids? First adults?

Carl: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think he has an episode on that as well. And so that's Actually, dare time actually both been on a trip with our kids when they were a year year and a half old, which was way too young in my

Derek: opinion. Yeah. But we did the Llama trip you're talking about. Yeah,

Carl: we brought some llamas that we could carry the kids and then the llamas could carry the gear

Dave: and

Tayson: but that was I want a lot that's why I'm laughing like

Derek: You, you do want to?

Carl: Yeah, you can rent llamas and we, yeah, I came across a guy that I met on Craigslist, he's buying some tires off me. And he saw my kids is like,

Dave: oh

Carl: we went backpacking. We just brought llamas. I was like, how do you do that? And then I just searched. But but typically yeah, bringing kids is an investment because the hope is that as they get older, they're gonna love it. They're gonna want to go with you and Each year they grow, they can carry more gear because obviously the younger they are the heavier your pack is and but you know, just trying to trying to provide some different information that hasn't come out on previous episode. I try to make going with kids, the most fun possible and so I try to have something for each trip that's going to be memorable for the kids. So, last year we had, I brought one of those inflatable dinosaur, costumes, and then we brought some pool noodles, you know, which don't weigh a lot but they can be used as light sabers. And then I went and like I was like, Hey guys, like you never know what kind of animals I hear, so just be ready and they're holding them and I went and ran ahead and then like, you know, changed the costume and like, attacked him and

Derek: Out of the year, out of the Year, man.

Carl: It's just one. Yeah. One one thing here. So this year I think I want to bring I'm gonna bring like a rope and a harness and try to set up like a terrible intraverse across. A stream or something, just something like a challenge, there's just something to kind of make it fun for the kids. It's gonna make them want to come back because the hope is that as, you know, they become teenagers and it's harder to spend time with them because they have their activities going on, that they're going to want to do that and spend that quality time with the parents. Yeah,

Tayson: I think that's super important. I can't tell you how many, you know, friends that I have

Derek: that, maybe enjoy backpacking or something

Tayson: like that and they get married and they take their wife out for the first time and They don't do it, right? And that's the last time their wife will even try, you know, and it ruins, right? I mean, shoot, a lifetime of experience. Sometimes I just, I mean, the first time you take someone out with the big kids or or different things, you just gotta, you gotta baby him and caught him and give him everything he can to make sure they

Dave: have the best experience. Yeah.

Carl: It's not, yeah, it's not gonna be enjoyable as much early on, but the hope is that it's gonna be enjoyable later because they're gonna have that experience. So I think and kind of side note with that with women and probably with kids too, I think number one or two things is, you obviously don't want to overdo it, the miles and the elevation gain, but the second thing is, you want to try to get them to have the best sleep possible. Making sure they're gonna be warm and comfortable and they're, they're pad is, you know, has an appropriate insulation. And that way, the better sleep, they have, the more likely they are to return.

Dave: Yeah,

Dave: I think that's like number one that my wife is all middle of the summer. She's in like a zero degree bag. Like, alright,

Dave: this is always

Dave: cold. So I think that that's like great, great piece of advice there.

Carl: Yeah. Very bad meals are. Yeah, I I I've been there and more for sure. Well I so you've talked a little bit about the pain of planning this You've taught, we've talked a little bit about different scenarios, but why do you do it, right? So let's talk with just a little bit about. You've got this group of guys that go out. You do this once a year, you describe a little bit about how awesome it is but like

Tayson: Described just a little bit more about like how did you find These Guys? These guys you've known your whole life, what what is, what's it like, like, why would you not miss this trip? Why would you go through the effort of planning prepping, hustling for money? All of these things, you know, for this trip.

Derek: Hmm. Getting deep. I like it, get deep

Carl: Derek. What would you say to that?

Derek: I think I would lean towards. How do we all get together? Well, for myself, I Know Carl and a few guys had already been, you know, doing some Adventure races and things like that before and they were, they were friends before I even met them, I had come back, actually, from living in New Zealand and traveling all over the world. And I came back to live with one of our friends or two of our friends, and they went on the red peak pass. Well, They we went on like a mellow trip with the fanny pack and then we went on how I got like sucked in or invited to the summer trip. Was you know, they invited me one of our friends invited me on the red peak pass trip

Carl: anybody, by the way,

Derek: are you? Yeah. And so, I was kind of like, you know, I didn't even know what to expect. You know, like, oh yeah, like a little bit up. Camped. I've traveled the world, the back that I know that I'm doing. And so I was like, yeah, sure. So I think You know, my friend trusted me enough to vouch for me in the sense of like, no, he can handle it. He knows what he's doing which I did not but it ended up being four of us and I learned a lot about myself on that trip, just Having messed up with the amount of weight I brought, and having to give some of them, my weight was like really humbling. So I think that experience, you know, after that trip I was just like they're never gonna invite me back and, and they did. And so I was like, this is something I never thought I would enjoy because it was a lot of work. It's a lot of effort and I think after that was done. I was like, I really enjoyed that challenge, like, mentally, physically and just the way that we related to each other, on the trip, in regards like trusting each other and just leaning on each other was really something that I hadn't had since I lived in New Zealand. And it was, it was really cool. So, I resonated with it right away, which was shocking to me. I didn't even expect to resonate with, at all. So, that's kind of how I got started with with Carl, on the game. So, yeah, and and

Carl: so many other guys I didn't since high school or one guy's college and then just kind of friends of friends. And like I said, I invite a lot of people to go backpacking and try to get, you know, just try to find that camaraderie with different. Folks and I'd like to introduce people to it, but as far as, you know, getting to your core question, you know, why do we go? What's there is a lot of hassle involved and is it worth it? You know. What's the, what's the motivation? But I think that as guys, especially we have a desire for an adventure. And when Adventure doesn't come to us with, you know, whether its Westward Expansion as we've learned kind of over the course of history we've kind of got created ourselves and backpacking is the gateway to Adventure. You never know what's going to happen. You don't know what people or animals, you're going to counter what weather or mountains are going to do and so

Dave: it's

Carl: just great to go out there and be Like try to control and uncontrollable situation try to overcome when challenges arise and the guys that tend to stick around with the guys that can handle those challenges. And so when Derek went on, he references. This Yosemite pastry which is kind of the 50 mile Loop we did and two and a half days which was really not reasonable for Derek at the time but he toughed it out and he I mean that spoke a lot to his character. And so that's the kind of guy that you want to go with is a guy that's going to be able to overcome and have a good time in the process. And so

Derek: yeah. So

Tayson: why do you do it with eight guys? When it sounds like you, you know, Derek and Carl here. You could just put together your own trip way easier, way simpler. And, and

Derek: still maybe, yeah, maybe we should curl Me, Maybe

Dave: Not.

Carl: Um, yeah honestly. Because I mean we I think you kind of referenced that we make these these videos and and so friends of friends, see the videos. And so people just want to come. And so it's because of the videos, it's kind of turned into this high demand trip where we've had to say no a lot over the years and so I think seven or eight guys is actually a compromise or what it could be. And so we're really we've kind of have this this talk in the last year of like who do we really want to buy? Are we just trying to invite guys to show me a good time or is this going to be a meaningful time where we can really dig into each other's lives? And I think we're kind of resting on the ladder. And so we've we're kind of sticking with these guys until they can't go. But really, I'd prefer to have a smaller group. I think it's easier to get the permit, it's easier to plan for sure and it's easy to make sure you have time for everybody because with eight guys, you know, you can only talk so much with different people.

Derek: Yeah. So

Carl: this is the compromise but the more guys you go with you, I mean, each guy has a character. Each guy brings something different to the trip and just makes it fun. I mean every kind of has Own nature as well.

Derek: Yeah, I think that, you know, you made a good point like, you know, Having eight guys. Like, we went on one trip and I didn't even, I didn't even really talk to you because there were so many other people that were new, and you want to make sure that they're fitting in, they're having a good time and all this other stuff, you know,

Dave: and

Derek: so, I didn't even really see him on the trip. But I think one of the biggest factors I think we briefly touched on. It was, I think most of the guys, the core guys that go on this. These this trip every year I sold include is like,

Tayson: you, you look,

Derek: you know, all the trips that I've been on backpacking and not backpacking chips. I always enjoyed When something goes wrong ionically and then you're like, well how do I get through this? Like what do I do? I think a lot of the guys like subconsciously or consciously like enjoy that challenge, you know, I Know Carl and myself like, you know, if something really cruddy happens, we're like okay, let's put on our thinking caps and solve this problem. We enjoy that kind of a challenge. So I think for majority of us, we all kind of connect in that in that, in that way, subconsciously or consciously aside, from all the personality differences and goofiness, you know.

Dave: So as

Carl: a result, it actually started to push Derek into rivers and just to kind of see how he

Tayson: start putting rocks in his pack.

Carl: Oh yeah. Little one.

Dave: Oh, you know,

Derek: the things I've done the car that he doesn't know about me.

Tayson: I mean, I get that we, you know, we do a bigger trip around here and we did King's Peak in Utah last year, and Just remembering as you're saying that part that we got back to our backpacks and a rock. Chuck had just chewed through every piece of this backpack and one of our one of the team members here. Just one of the, you know, there's always curve balls. We had so many challenges water. And it was, I mean, one person might call it miserable. We call a fun for some reason, but I tell you one thing about it, you know, we'll never forget that trip. It sounds like

Derek: that's kind of what you guys talked about too. Is, you know,

Tayson: you're not going to forget that that Yosemite trip. You're not gonna forget somebody's trips that you've been able to put together over the years. And,

Carl: you know, most people don't forget, I mean because backpacks are so unique. Like, people don't forget this specially when you have people to share it with. So

Derek: yeah, how

Dave: many

Tayson: guys you tend to go with typically tasting Dave Typically like so we try to go out once a month. So for instance, after we get off here a few hours after we get off here we're going to go out on a trip and I think there's going to be for five of us

Carl: and

Tayson: because we're, you know, in Utah, we're literally like driving across the street and a Trailhead and going on.

Dave: Yeah,

Dave: I was gonna be that before for us. It's a little bit, like, with the BLM and public landed. Stephanie, were more fortunate here. Then,

Dave: you know,

Dave: potentially other parts of the country, but for me, like, personally, when I'm planning a trip, if it's outside of Utah, I try and just keep it to five because I only need one car for the most

Tayson: part.

Carl: That's my ideal number five, guys. Yeah.

Derek: And

Dave: then I mean, for Park system and the permit system. Usually like you were saying that's six, once you go over six, you're in that whole group area and that really You know, it's challenging to get a permit. Bigger than 6. So that would be for me. I try and keep my trip stuff five or less personal trips

Carl: very wise.

Derek: Good.

Carl: Yeah, we've thought about uninviting people, but we feel like that's gonna cause

Tayson: some problems. It's double price for you, buddy,

Carl: right? It's I would say

Dave: on that. What would be some of your favorite trips or trails that you've been to? I would say individually or probably more group related since we're on the group topics and we're going that direction.

Carl: Yeah, that's a good one.

Derek: I would say too much trails are popping in my mind, were the red Peak Pass Trail, and you assembly and all. So the Glacier National Loop we did. What was the name of that trail was later? Trailers

Carl: went through the belly River Valley.

Dave: Sure, I mean, it was, you know, I think

Derek: number one, both have like the scenery, they both have like this, just as, like grandiose like epic field to it. And I think it, you know, it really you can't. There's a lot of trails. I feel like we've gone on you. Like, okay, let's just get through the trail. Like, yeah, it's pretty, it's cool, but I feel like these two Trails for me in particular. You know, there's those Trails, you go on and you can't help but like, stop and just either take pictures, or just sit there and soak it in and think about stuff for a little bit because it is so gorgeous. And it's so it just, it just affects you because of the what you're looking at. So those probably my favorite two, for sure.

Carl: Yeah, and I would probably say the same thing. In fact, that that repeat past trip, that Derek reference. We actually did a 10 year anniversary of that back in 2015

Derek: and

Carl: it was still awesome. I think we're trying to keep doing that every 10 years, just try to hit it might take as long reach time of course. But yeah I guess yeah. So for me the Glacier National Park, I had always wanted to go there and when we turned 40 we made a point of just kind of doing something more Epic. And we had eight guys that year and I just wrote right on the permit requests like hey this is a special trip for us, please grant us the permit and thankfully we got it. Yeah and we yeah. So some of the video and the photos we took Climbing up over that area. So you need to pass when we look when I look back, I just think that is one of the most beautiful places in the world. I can't. I mean, you know, we're big fancy Yosemite, but that I was just like that. We have to go back there sometimes. That's just so amazing. So that one stands out last October going to Canyonlands National Park there in Utah. I took my son I was just him and I and I didn't know much about Canyonlands. And so we went there and it's one of the things where you're hiking on a trail towards this massive rock formation and then the trail goes on to the rock formation and you're literally climbing up and around it. And I don't know if he has been there before but for me at taking, you know, a seven year old like that was just a playground. I was just amazing. And so I'm hoping to take some guys back there, over the next year. So, but

Tayson: did you like the back Countryside there or

Carl: yeah? So we did. That's not for. It was the Needles District. Trying to think of the trail we did, but we just kind of a loop. We didn't make it out to Drew dark, he has never. That is it was a little too far for us. We did about six miles a day with the seven year old in climbing over things. I feel like that was that was like a good amount of miles that was Heavy effort. I thought I was I thought you know what, we're not doing very many miles. I'm just gonna bring all sorts of camera gear and I had a super heavy pack not realizing, I was gonna be tossing that pack all over the place with some of these cracks and crevices were climbing through. But that was just a very, yeah, kind of an important trip. I think for me to go on because I think that was just inspire me to want to take some different folks back there.

Derek: Yeah, um, I think there's one other Trail. I hiked with a group of friends and the south island of New Zealand Queenstown down by the Lakes over there and I I can't it's it's it'd be not doing it, justice. I mean you probably want to Google Queenstown New Zealand and then just look at like what that realm looks like and then imagine all the trails that go around and in between that and Just looking at, that is something I'll never forget. I mean it's just it just, you know, there's certain views that you've seen on your trails that you just like, I'm not ever forget this scene right here and just kind of burns into your mind, you know? And so that's one of those for me too.

Carl: If only tickets weren't 2000 dollars to get there, right?

Derek: It was only 1200 Carl, it's only 1200,

Dave: not your friends on that one. Yeah,

Derek: that was that was about 20 15 20 years ago.

Dave: Right.

Dave: What was the name of the glacier loop trail? That you said, was that? So we did

Carl: a point to point it was we went to the belly River Valley which case it starts. It kind of starts, it's the beginning of that through high Trail. The Pacific northwest trail starts up by the Canadian border and the north east corner of the park and just and it's important to travel to start there because you are facing the amazing scenery, the whole time versus it, being your back. And then we stayed at a lake. We kind of passed this amazing waterfall and did a lake kind of just out and back to my Outback and then went through A couple Lakes causing leg and a couple other lakes and climbed up over the stoniene passes, the key there and and that was that was the highlight for sure.

Derek: Yeah.

Carl: Have you been there before?

Dave: I've been a glacier not backpacking. I've been there twice you know just leisurely kind of front country stuff but I

Carl: yeah

Dave: I'd really love to get back there Tetons and do some some Backcountry stuff

Carl: right? Yeah

Tayson: two times is amazing too but yeah I love I just I mean

Dave: glaciers just you can't really describe it unless you see you know those Peaks and valleys. And

Carl: you know Lakes For sure,

Dave: for sure

Tayson: well. So we've talked a lot about trip planning different aspects of that. But let's just leave off on the trip planning with, with just give each of you, I guess take a turn here and just say, what's your number one piece of advice, for planning a trip?

Carl: Number. Oh,

Derek: what's your number one?

Carl: Number. Yeah, it's a good one. So so I did the John Muir Trail when I graduated college and I was with two guys. And they were tough guys. They made the trip, they we finished it but they were not in Joel book guys to go with. So for me, that is not one of my even though that's like one of the most amazing Trails ever, it's not one of my highlights, my backpacking career as a result. So my number one piece of advice, would be if you're gonna go with somebody else. Make sure you're going with folks, that kind of match your expectations and your personality. Just people you're gonna have a blast with

Derek: Yeah.

Dave: Yeah, that's great advice.

Dave: Yeah,

Derek: I would definitely say that as well. I would also say like to, like more seasoned Backpackers, like to take time to enjoy, where you're at, rather than like, Feeling that obligation like I gotta just get through this Trail and just do accomplish it, you know? Like, I would say, encourage you to like, stop and take time to really soak in where you're at. Because it's, that's why we go out there. It's so beautiful and it really speaks to you internally. I think a lot of you allowed to. So I would say that and and, you know, for me, I think it's Trying to yes, stay late but also like trying to say comfortable because the more comfortable I am the more I enjoy the trip and the more I can really have fun and and take risks and have you know, enjoy the challenges that we put in front of each other with some of the things that we do. But yeah, I'd say if you don't go with people and that goes for any trip like if you don't go with people you enjoy hanging out with like

Carl: it

Derek: doesn't matter where you are, it's gonna be allows you trip,

Dave: right?

Dave: But

Carl: this second part to make sure your expectations match up to because

Derek: yes you

Carl: say, you know, Derek Would err on the side of going more, like, two miles a day, whereas, I might be doing a lot of miles, and so

Derek: not

Carl: sure. It might be a compromise there, beforehand.

Derek: No, well, we we battle with that a lot because, you know, Carl is like the guy who's like, would do like 15 to 17 miles and go for that epic thing. Where I think over the years, like, I have tried to tell them like, you know, we've done that but then we get to Camp. I'm like we're all just like dead tired. So I would always tell them

Tayson: like let's do like

Dave: you

Derek: know eight to 12 miles maybe 10 miles a day which is a good amount and then we still have time to like hang out and goof around and and all this stuff. But I think, you know, we we've learned like he was telling me on one of our last podcast, you know? He enjoys being on the trail because that's where he feels a lot of his conversations happen. And that's what that's a really important thing for him and and not that they don't for me on the trail as well. But I think, you know, having that downtime to relax and to rejuvenate is important for me as well. So I guess for me, it's I view it as more balanced as if you're doing, like, maybe that. That's, that

Dave: would be my van, definitely in the more balanced and I see what you're saying when you're on the trail, you know, you're kind of cracking jokes and talking and things like that. But even on this, this King's Peak trip that we recently took, we were able to get there early, we did some fishing, there's some Alpine lakes and things like that. So it definitely I feel like is it a good balance? You have those people that really want to get their miles in but I do like the camaraderie team trip or something group trip.

Tayson: I mean it doesn't have time to sit

Carl: and relax and eat his recent cup at the end of the day.

Dave: Having a coffee.

Carl: What's it all you

Dave: want to?

Derek: You want to Happy Days?

Dave: Yeah,

Derek: nobody likes. Nobody likes.

Tayson: okay, so you touched on this, just a hair but I wanted

Carl: to just

Tayson: Cover a few quick topics with gear, you guys, obviously done this. You've organized things you've been around this for you know 23 years and 14 years. So Well, I see a note here, so I gotta ask this cotton sock challenge.

Derek: Oh

Carl: yeah, you still part of that story? Derek a little bit.

Tayson: What is this? I have no idea what this is, something that came out

Carl: in our first season episode. Where Derek's big on socks? Because he talked about the 17th and that repeat past trip. And so and he likes to reference that a lot like, hey, I was I was tough. I made

Derek: it bad guys, bad honor.

Carl: I didn't know I was supposed to bring some wool socks and so Derek challenge me this past summer when we were out and get somebody to wear cotton socks for the duration of the backpacking trip. And he said, if you can, you know, survive with the cotton socks. Then I will wear the Apple necklace for the, you know, the Sasquatch trips so to speak. Apparently Sasquatch like apples that's the legend and anyway so I wore these Costco cotton socks for four days three nights in torrential downpour rain stepping through reverse and got them soaked. So that Derek will wear his Apple necklace. So I succeeded with the cotton side Challenge and I think it's gonna become a thing here. We just challenge each other to ridiculous things and that's what kind of makes it more fun.

Tayson: What painful was that?

Carl: So, yeah, I mean this asked me pretty well, actually. Like the Costco stocks. I didn't get any.

Derek: Oh, my goodness.

Dave: Wow, we have a guy here.

Tayson: This guy. When you try

Dave: to

Carl: say

Dave: okay, where's cotton socks? Like that,

Tayson: I'm a bit. Like some fun shoes and cotton sauce. And he still kicks my butt up too,

Dave: right.

Carl: Well, I will say though that I anticipating some problems, I brought more socks than I would have still impacted me with, you know, having some extra stuff along with me, but yeah, I would not recommend that though, as an avid Backpacker, like I will not like, you know, I would not work on sized specifically, for sure. That just happened to work out that way. I think part of it too is His Footwear, it's not just the socks but it's already. Here are your feet conditions, your foot. Where are you wearing, you know, broken in boots or, you know, I were running shoes. And so, for me, it's just, yeah, I'm just used. You know, my feet are used to that. So, it's just here.

Derek: I think what I learned from the cotton? Sock challenge is well, number one, I I brought my contacts. I got to defend myself before we had a gear list. And it was, it was very new for me. So I didn't know and Carl failed to tell me that so I love Carl for that. The second thing is we all learned that Carl has what you would call Neanderthal caveman feet that just don't get blisters. I mean they must be like superhuman feet because I'm like, it was super wet. I was impressed because I'm like he's peeling off these like, sopping wet cotton socks and I'm thinking to myself, my baby soft skin would have like blisters all over and you are, you know, Chrome Magnum in feet here and just handle Whatever it was great. I was like, you have hobbit feet. You must go barefoot. It's crazy.

Tayson: Yeah, I have baby feet, too. I'm always

Dave: write my feet being wet and dry. Whatever exactly.

Carl: Right? And

Tayson: yeah,

Derek: so

Tayson: is that your feet or do you have like, a secret shoe that you're wearing

Dave: know? I just think, I mean,

Carl: shoes, you could do a whole episode

Derek: Dr. Scholl's Dr. Scholl's.

Carl: Yeah. And I just yeah do you bring some inserts? I used this little custom footbed answers but I typically he's running. She's a trail running shoes out there. They say, what is it? If for every pound on your foot, feels like five or ten pounds in your back, I forget what the ratio is but so it makes it easier to hike and and those are the issues I go running with. So it's just yeah, my feet are used to I suppose but and then also the light of your pack the less friction you're gonna have on your foot. So

Derek: true

Carl: my pack was Everybody's got their

Dave: own.

Carl: Particular shoes that they prefer the ones I'm using right now or not. True Runners. They're just Oh, what are they there? They those sockey something. I don't know. I I kind of just go on. I just trying to find whatever I can they have Trail Runners on them. Those are

Derek: old school shoes. Tennis shoes. Yeah and they're comfortable though they're very comfortable.

Carl: Whatever works I look at Shoe weight so it has to fit and not be super heavy

Derek: just

Carl: to just so that if you really want to kind of yeah dial in some weight, look at your shoe weight and if you can find a pair of shoes or boots, that fit their lighter weight, you can actually save yourself quite a bit of energy right there, but

Tayson: I'm gonna do a video here, shortly about Charlotte Runners versus boots and just kind of my experience with them, but I think a lot of people should be looking at Trail Runners that maybe aren't

Carl: Yeah, I think it, I mean, obviously a lot of it depends upon where you're going and what the conditions are. But for the most part, and if you don't have any ankle problems, you can get away with them. I will say that I played basketball in high school, I used to have to wear those ankle braces, because I twisted my ankle so many times. And when I started trail running, I strengthen my ankles the point where now I can go hiking and not need anything like that. So I think it's possible to switch over at some point but but yeah that's that's a good one. So you guessed about gear. Was that your other question?

Tayson: Yeah, so I mean, just a really, let's just go kind of high level here for a second. You guys. Hammock Campground camp and then you know, what's your favorite piece of gear of those systems?

Carl: Hey Derek. What was your experience with a hammock camping?

Derek: Well, it rained so we couldn't even put it up. I would like to, I would like to try to use the cat hammock and so, I don't really have much she's married because we all got the hammock and we brought it on the trip and then it rained. And we tried to put it up but it didn't, it didn't work out. So I don't

Carl: have one of our guests on. Our podcasts who is very large into hammocks huge, big Guyver. He sent us a hammock that we brought on the last trip.

Derek: Yeah.

Carl: And either it was missing something but we could not figure out how to set it up, so, it was tough. Yeah. And I couldn't tell you what brand it was or anything, but we we tried and we couldn't set it up, so it was kind of a gear fail. But so we're typically ground campers and I will say this kind of a shout out to to after vitals is I got a hold of the Dominion one person tent. And we now have a guy in our group who is preferring to sleep by himself, because he doesn't want to deal with the snoring. He doesn't want to deal with the fart smell and so she had his own. He brings on two person tent. And so, I gave him the Dominion. One for this capitation, we just went on and one of the nights was like high winds, you know, blowing sand kind of thing, and It was like thumbs up to that tenant held up well and it saved him a ton of weight. And so I think that's his solution moving forward. So that's one piece of gear that definitely stood out.

Dave: Nice. I like, I really like to use the one person in the fast and light mode,

Carl: right?

Dave: And it was looking for for that especially depending on where you are, if you're in the desert and not worried about bugs. Right. Go with that. I'm I think I'm back and forth. I don't love Hammock Camping. I'm getting into it a little bit more like when I'm by myself, I guess. But for the most part, I like to be on the ground. I like to Cowboy camp for the most point.

Carl: Yeah,

Derek: there you go. There you go. I want to do that

Dave: out here. At least it's dry.

Tayson: Yeah, I just gotta stay here, too. Just from the way you guys talked about Hannah camping, I'll tell you right now. You're not gonna have a good experience.

Dave: Thank you.

Tayson: Seriously,

Dave: like

Tayson: if you really want to try it you gotta like take it serious. Otherwise, the sleep in it. You'll have way bad experience. You'll see. I'll never have it can't begin. So my advice would be like Set it up at home, dial it in. It sounds like you don't have an under quilt. That'll be problem. Number one, I mean, there's some things, you know, you don't have a tarp over you and it rains. I mean so you if you're gonna try it, I'm just saying. Try it at home. Well, I want to take It, seriously,

Derek: I'll say this, first of all, we weren't planning on sleeping and we were planning on lounging,

Carl: right.

Derek: Okay. Because I I'm with I'm with the ground campers. Like I don't know about you probably, I prefer the ground, I like a hammock, but I think we're just lounging with and we couldn't even, we couldn't even do that. So right,

Carl: has a fear of sleep walking out of the hammock and like falling on his face. So he yeah, but no, no, for sure it was we were in for lunch. We didn't have all that we when we talked to The guy runner episode, he kind of gave us the rundown of, you know, some of the struggles with getting too cold and not really being prepared with that when you're trying to sleep in it. And so we knew we didn't have everything we needed. So we were just trying to just trying it out to see if there's a possibility in the future but you're right. Cool. We definitely need to get more prepared for gonna do that for real. Yeah.

Tayson: Okay. Just make it sure? Yeah,

Carl: no,

Dave: it's alerting car. But once you get it, it's, you know, once you have it honed in where you like, you know, your your way and things like that. And you have your quilts and it's it's comfortable. It just takes a little bit to the hone it in.

Carl: It's definitely a movement. Now is camping. I feel like there's a club there's probably multiple Facebook groups like oh,

Tayson: Die hards.

Carl: Yeah, for sure. So it's upcoming or it's already there.

Dave: Yeah,

Tayson: like we released the mummy pod which was kind of meant for those people that may occasionally ham. It can't. But they're camping on the ground quite a bit and like the crossover and just wanted more of like the the Casual guys and the serious hammock campers had a

Derek: field day with it. They hated it. They

Tayson: tore it apart and different things. I was like man

Dave: you know it wasn't

Tayson: really ever meant for you guys, not for you. Yeah, they're like a cult.

Dave: I mean they are right

Derek: and

Carl: anyways,

Tayson: so there's there, there's a lot of information out there. People have interested in

Derek: learning about it,

Carl: right? And

Tayson: those guys they'll tell you everything you need to know too. So No super knowledgeable. Like not in more seriousness. There. There's a lot of people that have dialed these things in for a long time. Okay. Well, I I've kind of gone through the things that I was hoping to cover a. There's a lot of stuff. We got to uncover that I didn't. I enjoyed on covering, I didn't plan on going those directions but before we we kind of severed ties here. Is there anything? We didn't cover that? You feel like you want to quickly go over? Talk about something. You might be uniquely. Positioned to to speak on

Derek: Carl Carl. You want to talk about? Sasquatch is a

Carl: Did not want to talk about that.

Derek: Okay, let's make sure.

Carl: Yeah, that's,

Dave: I mean, even running

Carl: joke in our podcast,

Dave: What

Dave: you guys have coming up, you know what you're yeah, find

Dave: a

Dave: little bit of information about that you guys.

Carl: Yeah, let me speak to that real quick.

Derek: Yeah, go ahead.

Carl: So first of all, yeah I kind of talked about this before we started recording, but I really like your podcast and I'm, and I'm a high maintenance podcast listener. It's not for whatever reason. I just go through a lot of different podcasts and I really like your your style and the way you guys have it set up. And obviously I like the content of backpacking. And so I think that yeah if people like this podcast might want to check ours out. We've got like I mentioned before. We got one episode over the summer season per month coming out. Our next one, we've got Dear gonna happen quite had this conversation yet but where I'm leaning. Anyway, Derek is, we want to do a the episode? I think we're gonna call it like this old pack, a do-it-yourself episode on backpacking, where we talk about some of the different levels of if you want to really kind of get into things and whether it's creating your own gear or just from the very entry level to the very advanced level, some of the resources you might need to to do that. And so, typically in summer season we're going to hit some different topics that we're not sure if they're going to be mainstream or not. And so we just kind of throw them out there

Derek: and

Carl: and so that's what we have coming up. I think for June and assuming Derek reset that,

Derek: you know, me flexible. I have, you know,

Carl: right? And then for July, we do this last year, we actually record an episode in the midst of our backpacking trip. And so we just hook up, you know, microphone and kind of dangle it through some parachute coordinate tent and we just interviews in the different guys in the trip. And just just have at asking various questions and have different conversations it, take us down to different rabbit holes and Yeah, just kind of yeah goes kind of like this episode really just any which way and just talk about backpacking, you know which is one of our passions for sure. And then we jump back in September with weekly episodes on various topics. Some of them really informational and serious and some of them absolutely absurd and ridiculous. Just, you know, we have a wide range of listeners from from kids and families to elderly folks from people that have never gone backpacking before to people that are way more

Tayson: experienced than Derek. So it's just not many, I know. Shocking know. Yeah I would speak to that too. I think we try to part of the part of the fun about the summer back podcast or you know we try to make it as organic as possible when we're on the show with the guys and You get a lot of good stuff. You get a lot of, like I said, the word honesty because we try, to be honest all the time. But like, you know, when stuff comes up on the trail and you can, you can speak to things that are happening on the current trip. It's, it's kind of its kind of fun and you can't really do that with the other podcast episode. So, I think our podcast is, is hopefully an enjoyable, listen to people, Carl directed me to your podcast and he's definitely

Derek: You know, high maintenance when it comes to podcasts, but I'll be honest. Like I I've listened to some other bike packing podcasts. I won't mention the names, but it's painful to listen to some of them. Like it's I'm like, how are people into this? Like I just don't get it. Yours was a fun, a fun. Listen, I he directed me to a couple the other day. So I think you guys have a good rapport and you guys have a good vibe and hopefully you guys pick up a ton of listeners and

Carl: yeah, for sure. Yeah,

Derek: it's, it's been a fun journey. I think with Carl doing this and season three is gonna, is hopefully gonna turn out. Okay. We're excited to get that going. Hopefully, so, Yeah,

Dave: well,

Dave: thanks for the feedback and I mean, best of luck on that. Do you guys have a video version that someone could YouTube or things like that? Watch some of your trips. So this upcoming trip to Olympic is that

Carl: yeah, I think for us, we've done sort of these kind of mini documentaries over the years, some of them are are more raw and

Dave: and

Carl: you know, kind of amateur than others were kind of tried to get better each year. Our big we've done and we did a lot of video short space on our last year's trip like the cotton. Sock challenge. Was it you know too many video clip that we have on our our YouTube page which I don't even know if it comes up if you type him backpacking a blister but it might that's what YouTube page is called. And then and then we did our, our last kind of bigger Trip documentary, I guess was from our Glacier trip, which we call July is here, and that one's pretty popular with, with the listeners and such, so that would, yeah, if you're interested in checking that out. And then, if we can get enough good footage this year, I think we'll make another one. Just depends upon I don't know. We talked about this before. We recorded just seems like we always have camera issues, or there's always something that pops up, which kind of wrecks things. And so if everything goes, alright, then we'll, yeah, we'll have that. Come up for sure. Yeah

Tayson: well I'd encourage our listeners to go look at that. I just pulled up one of these videos and saw guy walking by with the swords so and

Carl: right

Tayson: lots of balls and some of these so yeah check them out again back. And blisters, we appreciate having you guys on the show.

Carl: Yeah and

Tayson: hopefully we can reconnect as well in the future so

Carl: for sure, for sure,

Derek: thanks for having us.

Carl: Yeah, thank you so much.

Tayson: Yeah. Thanks guys. We'll see you later. All

Dave: right.

Dave: If you like to help us spread the word about the little lifestyle, please give us a five star review and tell your friends to subscribe, where available on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, and have you made you listening app as well, as little ultralight calm. So, thanks for

Dave: listening.