Tayson: Hey, this is part. Two of Wyoming. Your insulation is going to keep you warmer on the trail and also save you some money. If you did not hear part one, you can go back and listen to that first. If you have heard part one, welcome to part two. We're gonna go ahead and queue up the theme music and dive right back in to why knowing your installations is so important?
Tayson: So here's the big question, how do we lighten our gear and build our confidence. So we can start living a life full of Outdoor Adventures and memories without having unlimited amounts of time, money and previous exper. Podcast power, bi Outdoor Vitals. All right, so talked a ton about sheeted, insulation here, with climate shield, primaloft 3dfx from Torre, Let's talk a little bit, we talked a little bit about the pluma fill, which is the stranded insulation. I don't know if we need
Tayson: to dive much more into that, but essentially, there's just another tool that we're, we're searching out and everything. Sure, everyone is searching it out. Now you may see a bunch of things pop up in the near future because there was an exclusive with the insulation producer for Patagonia that exclusive ended. That's when we first saw the product that's
Tayson: Sure, everyone else saw the product and so we will see what's gonna happen there. Let's talk about loose fill insulations. Loft. I mean, why the heck are we using a loose fill insulation versus a sheeted insulation?
Tayson: So let me ask you this question first to make sure we're on track. Are we going to go over pros and cons of all synthetic? Or should we go over pros and cons of the sheeted? And then go to loose fill and then do their
Tayson: pros and cons? No, now you're right, let's let's back up. Okay? Before we move off, from climate Shield, primaloft 3D effects. What is what are the pros and the cons of a sheeted insulation or these specific installations, okay? Yeah, just recap we talked about
Tayson: some of them already like you don't, you know, you don't have to baffle or do so in lines to keep them stable, They can have that. Byproduct of that as they have consistency across, you know, things because they're not shifting around, they don't, you can have a more breathable fabric because they don't bleed out, a continuous filament sheet of insulation. So you won't have like the installation leaking out potentially, or possibly and then, I'll add the another Pro is the a
Tayson: warm, when wet Factor, they synthetic insulation, they generally retain almost all
Tayson: of their insulation when they get Wet. They don't they don't compress. They don't collapse and therefore they
Tayson: dry very fast as well. So even though they're wet, they'll still generally. Stay warm
Tayson: but they also dry faster. Yes. Some of these present cons are going to apply to all synthetic but
Tayson: Like, yes, for that. She didn't installation, I'm trying to think of any other pros and cons. I'm really not not coming up with any cons.
Tayson: With be it, it's a little heavier and it's less compressible. definitely, and
Tayson: definitely, depending on what denier of Cheated fiber and things like that that you actually have that's going to depend a lot on the compressibility of it. But
Tayson: yes, it's not gonna compress as well and it's I swim like that. It's not gonna compress as well and it's definitely gonna be heavier. So again, let's just go back in time for a minute back to when we actually offered a storm light sheeted insulation, and we were to compare that to your generic retailer brand at the store. Ours would compress almost twice as well as their as like a seven denier thick sheet insulation. Also quite a bit lighter and warmer.
Tayson: And so there are disappearing factors in here. But compare this to other options out there. It's not going to compress as well and it's not going to be as warm as say a down product as even a pluma fill. And then all. So a loose fill insulation. All right, we ready to move on from sheet then thanks. So okay. Let's jump to loose fill insulation. So this is been something that's been animating for a long time. You've been aware of us
Tayson: working on it for a long time with the Loft tech jacket, and other things that we've brought to Market and what is exciting about? This is the
Tayson: fact that you have A product that looks and feels. As much like down as possible, but it doesn't have the downside meaning, you can get it wet, and it has synthetic properties. It doesn't collapse. It dries quickly, it stays warm when it's wet and Etc. So that's kind of like the the alert to why we need a loose fill like Synthetic in the first place. Why? Why I was drawn to it and why others are drawn to it. While these companies
Tayson: are trying their hardest to imitate down with a synthetic product, House. It has a lot to do with. Hey, can we make down just without the downsides? And that's kind of where loose fill insulation comes into place loose and insulation. We talk about a briefly but essentially it is The vatic installation that's woven into a ball type of a format. And and then it is blown around just like down. You can, you can, you can pick it up and it just
Tayson: crumble like it has no structure or adhesiveness to itself. Fall apart, you can lose it out of a product. Like down if you were to cut it open, you have to baffle it like down. Like say the purpose of loose fill insulation really is to look, hack act and feel as much like down as possible. Um so what options are there out there besides our Loft Tech insulation? Are there? I talked. I touch briefly on primaloft years ago now and now
Tayson: it's been years ago. They had An imitation down. I haven't seen. What if they've come out with anything better. Since every year, I try to kind of swing by the or show and see, I've never seen anything out of them. That's better or different but that very well could be because some other big name brand is having a backroom deal with something that they've developed, but are there other, right? Like, so, the thermal ball jacket from North Face, That was a
Tayson: loose, fill synthetic. Now the quality of that loose and synthetic was so low. They essentially had to baffle that in the one inch squares, which kind of ruined the jacket for me. I own one, I tested it, I used it. And because I had to be baffled so tightly. It had so many lines through it that it reduced. The overall warmth of the jacket is a good jacket but it was nothing to write home about. Yeah,
Tayson: it was more because they had to do that. I think is kind of had a little bit of a To me, I saw a little bit of it was more. Like, I don't know, it's almost it almost seemed experimental that they just took to market for the novelty and the marketability and
Tayson: you're saying it was so much practical. It was more like hey we want to be the new kid on the Block.
Tayson: Yeah let's make something that kind of is like down but oh it's kind of in its in these furry balls these little fuzzy lofty balls and it gets attention thermal ball, it gets attention and it gets people's minds thinking and I think it I don't Know what the success was on
Tayson: it, but I'm sure Millions. Yeah, you know, so how many they sell today versus when they launched it? At a product, how to one to two year life cycle, right? Like tank. And
Tayson: that's, I think that's like, kind of the, the risk with taking that approach like the the catchy novelty approach. so, but, There's Corey makes fiber ball, that's correct.
Tayson: Yeah which is I don't I have I can't remember if I've seen them side to side so I don't know if it's exactly just kind of like the same concept. Yeah, I don't thermal ball.
Tayson: There's there's major despairing factors in the quality of this that we've seen. We've we've seen multiple manufacturers, bring it out. And when I've talked with Tori about it and looked at it even then personally they don't They don't push it because they don't feel like it's that good from what we've seen, it's not better than what we use currently. So we haven't moved or migrated to it. In the very beginning, I tested some other, you know, levels and yeah, that's, that's
Tayson: good point. That sometimes forget that they yeah,
Tayson: well when we I won't name his name. But our main guy at Torre, like when we, when we talked to him, he kind of just acknowledges it like, yeah, we have fiber ball, it's it, it's kind of like the he's open about, like, his attitude that they just have it to have it and that's their they really aren't trying to really push it or Tout it as something that it's not really, which honestly, I appreciate. Yeah, you know, because it's just
Tayson: like That way, if somebody wants to use it, they can use it. But They're not making any. Crazy claims or
Tayson: yeah. It's true. They're very straightforward. I actually really appreciate that with Tori as though. Let's try to tell you, if they don't think something they make is great and if they think that there's a better option, they'll just be like. Yeah, steer away from that one. Let's go to this one. Yeah, which is which I really enjoy about them. So there's, there's some competition out there and there's more popping up all the time. I know, since the release of our Loft
Tayson: tech jacket, it seemed like even in the cottage industry. There's a bit of a wave of cottage people trying to get into. This realm of a loose fill synthetic after that. I I can't say this for sure, but I still like the Loft Tech track at brought a lot of attention to loose, fill synthetics, and Since then I feel like it's just more and more and more common. However, there are There are different things we're still working on with it, which
Tayson: will touch on after we go for some pros and cons. So Pros and cons of a loose fill synthetic Brigham. A lot of the pros are going to be the same as the sheeted
Tayson: synthetic. Warmth retention when it's wet. So then it's all going to dry faster. um, some of the Well. And then oh, okay. So another Pro of a loose fill synthetic is that you can do it does. Closely behave a lot like down. So one of the things about down is it will fill space? So loose fill synthetic will fill space, which is nice. But then also warmth ratio, where does it rank? Not as good as down. But it has really great
Tayson: Loft like again, so like behaves closer to down than it does to a sheeted insulation. It's great. If
Tayson: at some point we had a way to like Show. Like, put down versus loose fill like a loft Tech versus a sheeted insulation. Because yeah, it's so hard to like, say this is 50% better than Wilson.
Tayson: It is because they're they're measured differently. So, loose fill. Synthetic insulation. We you basically treat the same as down in terms of you. Think about, okay well, how many grams of this do we need to put into this
Tayson: product? Because our Loft taking insulation is a, is 225 fill power. That's how you racing and treat it as a down with that, fill power.
Tayson: And so that's a you know that's a good thing to keep in mind because with a sheet of insulation, it's totally different. Even the way it insulates and the Loft. It's it's completely different and generally that is like, you decide. Well we were going to use a gram per square meter metric for a sheeted insulation with which really is just how thick and dense. That insulation is so
Tayson: right? That's something we missed. Man, there's so much to cover here and we're getting super technical. But yes, when you're looking at a jacket, one thing you do want to be aware of, when you're looking at a synthetic jacket is how thick and is that insulation and that, that thickness that warmth really is going to be if you can find because a lot of people won't disclose this kind of stuff. It's the it's interesting because the retail brands are getting less
Tayson: and less information and the cotton industry and the direct to Consumer industry is giving more and more information. It's I don't know why but you can go to a big name website anymore and there's like no information for you to find on my okay. What installation are you using what thickness of insulation using like it's all Eat it. I don't know it's weird but essentially let's say you have a jacket You can have a jacket that has 100 gram per square
Tayson: meter. Synthetic. You could have jacket that has 40 gram per square meter. And so, essentially what that means is that there's More than double the amount of insolation by volume in in that 100 gram per square meter. Because that's the weight. Thickness, however, you want to view it. Of that installation. Yeah so
Tayson: it is tricky and so yeah I'm glad we you kind of brought that up to clarify. So so for the consumer good thing to know. So if you're talking synthetic insulation, you kind of immediately want to make yourself aware, is this loose fill? Or is it she did? And then if they're both, if they're, if once, if they're different, you know, one's loose. But once she did between two products, you gotta remember to think of them differently. You can't compare them
Tayson: the same. So, so just remember like what she did insulation, you want a big number if you want the most warmth. So, so you don't want to, you know, if it's a 60 GSM insulation, that's going to be way less warm than a 100. 200 GSM
Tayson: insulation GSM, meaning Grant per square meter in. Yeah.
Tayson: and so, then, I guess the closest way you can think of synthetic loose fill is because probably, nobody's gonna tell you their fill power, you know. But you can at least look at. Well, what's the hopefully they disclose it? They probably won't, but at least look for total weight of insulation. You know. Like, What's the total amount of insulation in grams that they put in the jacket It's still tough but just we're giving you what we can. So just keep those
Tayson: things in mind when you're shopping and doing your research. Yeah, no, it's
Tayson: totally true. So back to the pros and cons of Loft Tech And Lucille synthetic. The one con I will say is you do have to battle it, tighter. Now the thermal ball was so unstable, meaning it would shift around so much and not. Fill the space very well but they had to tighten it into these tiny little baffles. Now, we don't have to do that but we definitely have to put more sewing lines in a loft tech jacket in a down
Tayson: jacket with the Loft tech jacket. We had to do roughly four centimeter height baffle Heights. Each baffles about four centimeters tall and then we you know had to run it in roughly 12 inch. Some lengths. And so that, that that's a lot better than an inch by an inch, but it's still not like as much as a down. So currently if you look at our down jackets, our down jacket and our lock type jacket, have the same exact fill of insulation
Tayson: ones down once synthetic. So let's say it's like the medium and it has 150 grams roughly of insulation in both of them. The down jacket though we have we can do six, centimeter Six, centimeter tall, baffles and then we don't have to we'd really have no limit lengthwise so they don't have to be baffled into 12 inch sections or tighter. So essentially our down jacket is able to Loft up more stay more stable, and be a warmer piece for the exact
Tayson: same weight, right? The Loft tech jacket, we have to put in more baffles, it's not as warm. But again the the pro with the Loft jacket is you can literally soaked that thing in a river. Put it On and keep hiking and then you're going to dry out and stay warm, whereas, the down, you know, you'd have more fears with doing something like that. So that would be the biggest con with Loft Tech and Louisville. The other. I mean, essentially, yeah,
Tayson: it's just the shifting of it is it becomes more of a concern. So yeah and then I just
Tayson: All possibilities. You have the possibility for Bleeding of insulation, it can leak out depending on the fabric or the, the needle size, the hole size, for the thread that it's sewn with and then quality of the fabric with that comes the fabric, whether you know, you have to use it, basically a downproof fabric just like you would down. You have to take the same measures. To prevent the leaking of the insulation as you would with down.
Tayson: Yep. Okay, so if we've covered that pretty well. And that's the majority of the synthetic, we're gonna swing around to a couple questions, comparing and contrasting, some of these. But the last thing that I have kind of noted down to to brush on, is what the heck is Arrow? Joe, if you have maybe you guys have heard of it and I don't even know. And
Tayson: you know, I was in looking at our outline I realized it doesn't really come into the conversation because it's not on, it's not a lofted insulation. That's true, you know but I mean since we're About it. There's Aero gel. I don't really know how it works, but I know it's like, you know, how there's a great marketing. It sounds freaking cool. And sounds amazing uses. It faces in space? Yes,
Tayson: it's enough for space. It's good enough for whoever wants to easy down
Tayson: and it's cool. It's real life here, I don't know enough about it and I don't think there's much out there on it because those that do use it,
Tayson: I will say it's a really can't give you. They don't give you much to now go to use it. Don't give you enough information to make quality decisions off of I feel like. And so then you're To me, I start hitting the brakes. Because it sounds too good to be true. essentially, what they claim with no like Facts, I guess kind of like explaining it. I started to pump the brakes because I say, This just sounds too good to be true
Tayson: and tell. I get more information and tell someone else gives us more information. I don't know and I think that is a safe consumer standpoint right now for us, we probably, you know, we are spreading. I mean we, let's be honest we've got, we've got a lot of designs, a lot of amazing things in the works, and arrow, Joe just hasn't been a priority for us and,
Tayson: and at some point it made me become that. But as a consumer, I think you should look out of a little bit the way that I just explained, which is if it sounds too good to be true. Take a second guess maybe wait until you get more validation from someone out there because the last thing you want to be is a guinea pig that fills after you buy it that you were, you know? Not a sold into something that really wasn't
Tayson: that good or that you got taken advantage of or something like that. So, Anytime it sounds a little bit too good to be true. I like to get more information or get more reviews. So that's Arrow Joe. It sounds pretty cool.
Tayson: If you ever heard about it, look at it. It's Good enough for space,
Tayson: like for him says so. okay, let's try to decide when we should talk about. Loft Tech hybrid. I feel like we've covered synthetics pretty well with probably say that, we've, we've wrapped that up. let's, Let's well, let's talk about. Let's talk about this way. Brigham. Where do you like to use? All the insulations we've talked about. Where do you like to use? What? So you talked about sleeping bag jacket. I don't love.
Tayson: Yeah. So Thinking about kind of all the product categories. I've got. So I like I like to use down Pretty much across the board in Sleep System. so sleeping bag top quilt, either way Almost always choose down. I don't I don't really have any concerns about it, getting wet or failing from what? Mental moisture, it could have. I use. A down jacket. Maybe have to time. Maybe lasts between 40 and 50% of the time. I'll use down on a as an
Tayson: insulating jacket. I use synthetic insulation. At least half the time in jackets for insulation all the time in glove. and,
Tayson: I think I think that covers it pretty well. There's some different applications that will Yeah, we're playing with that, we'll talk about in the future but you know, I'm I would say I am in a sleeping bag. I'm like 90% using. On a down sleeping bag in every situation. The only time I really went for a loft tech product was this summer when I went to Alaska and I was getting dropped off in the middle of nowhere and if I had
Tayson: a failure, it could be life or death. Like it was like like It was. It could have been serious, right? So in that scenario, and even looking back now, it probably wasn't, I don't know, but, but in that cereal, there's high moisture. There's lots of moisture, man. The fog would roll in at night and everything would get wet. And it was just, it was a phenomenon to see. but, Anyway, I took a loft Tech, I took an atlas bag. It's a
Tayson: loft Tech hybrid sleeping bag in that scenario. Just because of that, I'd heard of people hitting 100 mile an hour winds up there and tore their tents apart and then What like, you've got a bag that's exposed the elements. And so that's the one scenario that I went with the Loft tech product for me every other scenario, I use a down product and a lot of that has to do with the fact that the more insulation required. The more benefit there
Tayson: is to a higher weight to warmth ratios. So in down you get a much or excuse me in a sleeping bag, you using so much insulation. That you get much bigger payoffs to go with down versus she did and even to a loose. So, yeah. Just sort everybody is still tracking. He's talking about his sleeping bag. Yes. Still talking about my sleeping bag now. Jacket. Personally I use my loft tech jacket about 80% of the time. I'm like my loft tech
Tayson: jacket lives with me. I It everywhere. I use it like in every situation because I love that. I have no fear. Like if it starts raining or I start sweating and I don't delayer quick enough or whatever it is, I just have so much confidence in that jacket in every situation and you know, last year when I went to Colorado again, in November, I took two Loft Tech jackets. I didn't even take it down jacket. Because I've been on on that
Tayson: trip before and I've been in blizzards the whole time, you know, and I was like, man. Anyways so For me, I'm typically using that Loft tech jacket like 80% of the time. So someone asked me like what jacket should I get first. I always tell me get the Loft Tech at first. Then get it down jacket. The down jacket for me is excellent around town. It's like like it's excellent. In times when I just need that much more warmth but that's
Tayson: just the way I use it. Gloves on the same, I do have a pair of down mittens. There's some potential there, but for the most part gloves need to be synthetic for me because they're getting Wet. You know, if you're saying you're out in the snow, they're like me to get wet as you're setting up your tent. They're gonna get snow on there. There's just a higher probability that they're gonna get wet. So, a lot of times for me, it's almost
Tayson: like a Line in the Sand, where it's like, when it's a Peril, I lean heavily towards that attic, when it's Sleep System. I feel so confident that I can keep it. Dry that I typically go with down. So that being said, we did touch on this now, and we've kind of introduced the idea of Loft Tech hybrid. Why? Did we start blending down and loose fill synthetic? I guess you actually weren't here. I started getting started know. So I the reason
Tayson: that I started to do it was actually the core reason that I started blending them worse was for stability of lofticries. We could still use a very high percentage of Loft Tech and that allowed us to have incredibly good abilities with moisture and still have a primarily synthetic option. Forward. And that's essentially how I started to use it as. Hey, you've got a synthetic bag but it looks acts and feels like down to the point where literally has a little bit
Tayson: of down in it. 20% of it is down currently because it allows us to make it look act and feel more like down, but we can still completely soaked that product out in a river. I can sleep in it at night, which if you've never seen the video, you can go check that out on our YouTube channel. and I'm dry by morning and I and it stayed lofted it and it Has all the pros of a synthetic. I think just because
Tayson: time constraints and I don't know. There's some R&D things. We don't want to disclose here but we are actively continuing to test hybrid. The blending of of things and you could see us in the next year or two. Come out with some different stuff, different applications, and so on, so forth, there has been other companies. Now, that we've seen do this as well, there's been another company that started to blend. You know, loose,
Tayson: fill and down, but we all be honest. I don't know if another company that did this before us. We this is kind of something we pioneered and we can continue to Pioneer explore this space because It's a really, really cool space. It's something that that no one else really gets to dabble with but usually no one in the sleeping bag game. Yeah. And
Tayson: I would say, you know as far as you know what we're doing, what we're up to like you touched on maybe different applications. I would also just add to that Like and or improvements. So if we change something that we're already doing It's going to be because it's an improvement that we have learned through continuous testing and learning like constantly, researching and testing. So whatever the product is, if we change it some way, it's because we have come to the determination
Tayson: that we've found a better way. Whatever. The product is my not even insulation doesn't have to be insulation related but But yeah, always looking for new applications of, we just geek out of things that we've already discovered. You know? So, a lot of times things, snowball and Branch out into different ideas. So,
Tayson: yeah, we we geek out about this stuff. We love it. We
Tayson: So much, I will say this. I think one of the biggest thing that sets us apart Brigham from every other company out there designing, right? Like what makes us so special, right? Culture at the company here, we use our gear personally, we also use it as a company, once a month, on a monthly company trips. And so many great ideas come from that the culture. I think that we've developed in our R&D Department in and whatnot and what, you know, the
Tayson: culture that you've brought on and the culture that existed it's been It's fun. We geek out about it, we love it. And I did that, that's a big part of why we can, you know, have a lot of good things that have come out. And we've got a lot of great things to come out in the future. So definitely, we did Segway into this. So I want to, I want to, I want to touch on this. What about down, treatments? What
Tayson: about dwr coding? And, you know, we are using an Allied feather product, which you just hyper dry down. And it's a really, really high quality. Essentially, dwr coding. That's put right on down. That makes it water resistant. So, What are your thoughts on? What are your thoughts on the treatments? What should I what should people expect from it?
Tayson: So They are. You know, we definitely will not hit on everything that's out there because frankly we can't keep track of them all. We can't remember them all and a lot of them just as we can't do them Justice by accurately, describing them
Tayson: three, there's three main companies, right? There's there's Allied there's down Tech and there's gonna lose the last one cluster. No, no. It's it's it's one that we used previously. I'm gonna forget it but there's another major one out there and they've all got their own Blends and proprietary coating. And but then for their though, this is where it gets confusing, more confusing. And we didn't help this, right? Like we had vital dry and that's something that we've since tried to get
Tayson: away from a little bit, right? Because essentially we're stopping our name on top of someone else's name. Yeah
Tayson: it and I would say so there's in terms of down suppliers insulation, suppliers you name those three.
Brigham: But then but then there's
Tayson: also chemical companies, Nick Wax that that they part of their business is to find applications for their expertise. So their expertise is in chemistry. So they find, you know, they if they focus on the Outdoor Products space, they use their Depth of knowledge to develop chemistry or applications that they can then. Talk to an Allied feather about and say, hey we've got this technology, you know, and Pitch it to them. Just like You know, a down company, will pitch their technology
Tayson: or a waterproof membrane company will pitch their technology to another brand. So so there's, you know, the insulation supplier and then they may have their own developments for treatment, but then there's also chemical companies. So I don't know if we, if we're moving on to kind of those essentially,
Tayson: let's just put this way. There's a lot of options out there and there are some that are better than others. So, Tori's quick Quicks down, you know, that's a quality one hyperdrive that we use is very quality down. Tech is known for really high quality. You can get anyone essentially that we could get any provider of down to like use the Nick wax treatment and put it on at the down level. If you're buying from a reputable company, you're probably getting
Tayson: a pretty high quality dwr coding. So what do you expect from it? Well, what should they expect from it? Is it magic? Is it, is it?
Tayson: No, it's not. It's not it. So that depends. So I I kind of things come into my mind that I have to take a second to wait for a pause. So like when we talk about treatments what are treatments well they're not there. Think of them as enhancements or it's some kind of application. It's some kind of supplement or enhancement or application to the insulation that is supposed to achieve a desired effect and so we can talk about well one of
Tayson: those desired effects is water resistance. So then now we're talking about Dwr treatments or water resistant treatments, so hyperdry uses. A PFC which is basically a fluoride carbon plural. Floral floral floral carbon free treatment, it's wax space but it performs
Tayson: very highly better than most Dwr treatments that have a PFC base there. Is you're saying you're saying hyperdrive PFC, free? Yes,
Tayson: and others are using PFC.
Tayson: Not all but a lot of them are some of them are can't say touched wax
Tayson: waxes fairly durable. I mean it right
Tayson: it's sticky it stays on there, if you put it water on it. It doesn't have any effect on it. I mean, it, like the water and wax are polar opposite versus if you had a purely chemical compound without a wax base coating on it. You, you know, it's not gonna like be polar opposite, right? They're gonna, they're gonna be able to blend a little bit better. And anyway. So see. Yes, hyperdrive. Being waxed like that. It's it's a very impressive treatment on our down. Yeah,
Tayson: it it like in the So let's call. It's it's like the it's a shake test. It's basically, you know, we put down in water and a jar and you shake it, you know, hyperdrive there. The number is that it's, you know, it lasts 80% longer than other whatever that means, you know, our treatments. so you know I can't tell you what the other is I can just tell you that the testing for hyper dry is Compared to other treated
Tayson: down, you know, it hasn't 80% higher retention of its Loft, you know? And then it its adherence to the down itself is like 90. I think in the application process 95% of it adheres to the actual down versus other dwr treatments. Only 60% of the application actually adheres to it. So it's yeah, it's impressive stuff. Okay? There's other there's a permanent know it's not permanent. It can it can eventually wear off. How long that is not? Tell you depends on who
Tayson: you are? How much you use it? How much you take care of it, how properly
Tayson: you take care of it. So it's and that's and I guess that's the whole point with treatments. There's better treatments than others but a treatment is a treatment. It's not a permanent thing. And so when people are like, oh yeah, I got a dry down bag and they
Tayson: think that it's like water. Proof and that it's still waterproof five years later, you know, I hate to, I hate to break it to you. He's got a, if you've got a bag that you use, Somewhat consistent rate, that is a dry now, or a dwr coated down, and it's five years old and use it. Consistently, it's you need to retreat that bag. You need to buy a bottle of down proof treatment. us, or find it on Amazon from Nick Wax,
