EP 36 - Best Investments For Winter Backpacking

Tayson: So here's the big question, how do we lighten our gear and build our confidence. So we can start living a life full of Outdoor Adventures and memories without having unlimited amounts of time money and previous experience. That's the big question and we are here to help you find the answers. This is the little trolley podcast power, bi Outdoor Vitals. Hey welcome back to the Live Ultralight podcast. Thanks for joining us today. Today we have a continuation on a conversation that we

Tayson: started when we were talking about extending three season, backpacking gear into the fourth season. Well that ended up being a lot about budgets and trying to just minimize the amount of investment that you need to put with any of your current gear to get it out into the fourth season. This particular episode is going to be a lot more about If you spent a little bit of money because you plan on doing a decent amount of Four Season or winter, backpacking.

Tayson: What would we spend that on? So we've got Brigham our lead designer back here in the studio with us. And we're just gonna start by, you know, posing this question. if you were gearing up, For winter or fourth season, backpacking. What would you buy? And then we're going to make an assumption that you've already got some backpacking gear for three season. So kind of with that preface I wanted to lead off with the first thing. I wanted to put on the

Tayson: list, I guess which we kind of agreed upon was insulated boots. That was the first thing that I put on that piece right there to me has made the biggest difference. Now I'm speaking as someone who has you know, had pretty bad situations with my feet, getting them wet, getting them, cold struggling to keep them warm, and you know that hasn't ended super well for me at times, but That's why I probably am sensitive to this and putting insulated boots on

Tayson: there. Now, there's a whole realm of things so I'd like to dive into some of your thoughts on this Brigham, but you can buy insulated boots that are very similar to a three season Boot and then you've got things like Pac boots, right to have a liner that completely pulls out. Fill more, like, you're walking in like, a ski boot or snowboard boot things of that nature. When you think about insulated boots for for Four Season. Backpacking. Brigham. What are what

Tayson: kind of boot are you thinking about?

Tayson: Well really I've used both and I think it's pretty application dependent in terms of what would be preferred if it's an overnighter you can get away with a lot, a lot more options because assuming it's an overnighter you can even if your feet sweat your boots get pretty wet inside. at some point, as long as you're active, and, and you're still warm, even though your feet are wet, You're going to get in your sleeping bag, at the end of the night

Tayson: and your feet are going to be toasty. But that That moist inside of the boot will it'll just stay moist all night and if it's for freezing it's going to freeze. So in the morning, you're going to have a very cold boot but you're going home, you know, assuming your hike, then you're just going to put your your warm foot inside of Frozen boot. It's going to feel. Not good. Maybe miserable, but it's going to warm it up. It's going to

Tayson: melt the ice and side and you're supposed to warm up as you hike out. Now, when you get into multi-day, that's where it becomes more complicated and that's where. And there's an advantage to a boot. That has a lining. So if you're in a lot of deep snow where you're not walking on rock and a lot of uneven Terrain, a pack boot can make a lot of sense, because It has. Well, most of them will have like a wool liner. You

Tayson: can remove that and if you can set it by a fire and it'll, it'll dry out a lot more than if you just take. An insulated unlined boot stick it by the fire, that'll help a lot but nothing compared to like taking the liner out of a pack Boot and letting that air out and dry out, that that's much more important for multi-day, where you're sweating and your feet day in and day out safer, like a three or four day Expedition

Tayson: that, that really comes into play. So most of my winter stuff is just overnight, so I tend to use just a heavily insulated boot. It's leather boot. That's probably, I don't know, 12 inches tall and I get good stability out of it. And so I generally will use that unless I'm doing multiple days. but if you're hiking

Tayson: multiple days, then that big old boot has got a really slow you down, doesn't it? I mean, when you're talking pack boot, you're talking a much heavier boot, right?

Tayson: Yeah. It's a trade-off though. I mean, it's, it's inescapable like the if you're talking sub free sub-freezing temperatures, A pack boot will make the difference between your feet being comfortable and not losing toes from frostbite versus your feet being freezing every single day because your boots just never dry out.

Tayson: Yeah. Yeah. It's you're talking about that. It really was kind of dramatic to me, to think back on some experience. As I've had, just waking up ramming, your your feet into that boot, you know, that Frozen boot, trying to get it to open up, you kind of learn to fully open the boot. When you take it off at night when it's still moist and and not frozen, just big can even get your foot back in there. And then, you know, you

Tayson: go from having a nice warm foot and sleeping bag to literally sticking it in an ice cube, and then just feeling that warmth drain out of your foot. That's not a good feeling. It's it's a pretty crummy feeling, to be honest. But it is tough because thinking, personally, thinking of those big pack Boots. And They seem pretty miserable to hike into. So I want to put you on the spot here. Brigham because I had a thought pop into my head

Tayson: that I saw the other day on a on a YouTube channel, something I haven't used or experienced before but um, it's this person was using a RAB Vapor sock. Essentially, it was something I was putting inside of his boot to lock in the moisture. And so that it wouldn't get into the Buddha himself. I guess from the inside out obviously you can still get wet from the outside because this is something that you're putting think of it. Like your foot, you've

Tayson: got your sock and you've got this. Additional tube, you're putting in around your foot and then you're putting it in your boot to my understanding, and it's just gonna hold the moisture. Out of your boot that might be developed from sweating. If you have any experience on this or thoughts on that. Yeah

Tayson: Vapor Barrier. It's a technique that's been around for a long time and it is most applicable to extreme cold like extreme cold Expedition level Adventures or I guess Expeditions. Because, like, in the Arctic people that do say just Full winter, length, Expeditions. They use Vapor Barrier all the time. So it is a very proven thing. It's just a lot. The likelihood that. Our listener, our listenership, the percentage of them that are actually going to be in that position is very slim.

Tayson: And so it's certainly effective and it's totally been validated. And so I guess on

Tayson: my head, I'm trying to piece this together. White might not be applicable to listeners if you're, you know doing an expedition. It's so cold constantly never heats up, right? So your boot almost isn't gonna get wet from the outside in because everything's frozen and so cold. It's something melting. It's not going to be permeable into your boot from the outside per se. So then the only place it could get wet is from the inside. Correct? Yeah. So if we were to

Tayson: apply this to a scenario like us where saying the middle of the day can get into the 40s. You know, stuff, melting it's It's, you know, the sun's out, whatever your boot, could get wet from the outside in, as well as the inside out from sweating. So do you think this is applicable at all to, you know, say our our situation? if you wanted to stretch a, A more of a hiker style boot. Not a pack boot

Tayson: with this. Be helpful. it could be, I don't think you're going to be any worse off than say, somebody wants to just go hiking the snow at their their their summer time Trail hikers. Your feet are gonna get soaked and so it would be better than that.

Tayson: Yeah yeah I might have to play with this because I'm just interested my feet sweat. They absolutely sweat a lot and I know that's a big part of why they get so cold. So I'm I may mess around with this and just see, but I guess backing up a level again. I don't know if I said this very clearly but what we're looking at is a RAB VB, sock, that's the title of what I'm looking at here. It's probably titled. Something

Tayson: a little bit different and other places, basically, a robbed Vapor Barrier socks. Any-ways all report back. If I end up testing that out and having any success for myself and kind of the Midwest, not necessarily on an expedition and see if I enjoy those or don't enjoy those. Yeah I

Tayson: think I might give a shot. Yeah,

Tayson: they're very interesting because I don't think I I say it's like all about survival and keeping your toes because You're essentially putting a sealed plastic bag around your foot sticking it in your boot. Imagine how that's gonna feel it's gonna, it's not going to be feel great against your skin or anything, but if it's a matter of your feet actually staying warm even though they're wet or losing your toes from frostbite, you know, I think that's why it's a Time tested method. Yeah, yeah.

Tayson: All right. So boots. Extremely important, definitely top of my list for things to invest in when you are getting out in the winter. They're just something that is that are absolutely going to be in contact with with snow and cold and it's just it's a great investment. The second thing that we put on here because it felt pretty in line with that is a good solid waterproof, insulated glove. We talked about how you can stretch out, some other gloves and different

Tayson: things, but getting a solid winter glove, it's extremely helpful. So I've got a glove that is very waterproof. It's remain very waterproof has a good amount of insulation in it and it is just worth its weighting gold. And then what, on top of that, you know, I'll still run a glove liner. Reason for doing that is that outside piece provides a lot of warmth keeps my hands dry but I can pull my hands out. Do something quickly where my bare skin

Tayson: isn't exposed to the elements but I can still maybe use my fingers and tie your cinch this and what not that I can put them back in there and you know warm them back up and that system works really well. Plus it allows you the ability to try that liner a little bit. Now keep in mind and this is something that I was kind of playing around with this year's using those winter gloves. Man, they can, if they're waterproof they're waterproof.

Tayson: I mean, people talk about waterproof breathable and that's not We'll talk more and more about this on, on some projects. We have up and coming but waterproof breathable just isn't really a thing to me. It just it, if it works. It's so it works at such a, my new level that it's just not that important to me. So I, I completely washed these gloves and it like three days. Like I don't know how many days multiple days. I had these things

Tayson: hanging, they just still were not dry. So I had to literally flip them completely, Inside Out flip each finger inside out and then let him rest there for a day before they finally dried. I mean, it was to me, it felt so extreme because I already been trying to dry him for like two plus days in my own household, you know, warm temperatures. It's not like I was out, you know, in a cold freezing tent, trying to try these things out.

Tayson: But anyways, back to the point though, if you know good solid very waterproof, glove can go a long ways, just Still got to be careful to make sure you're not getting them wet by with that liner or whatever it is. And then if you do get them, what that liner is going to be your best ticket to dry them out that will liner. Hopefully, if you've got like a wool liner, it could absorb the water and then you pull that out,

Tayson: and try to drive that out in your sleeping bag or something.

Tayson: Yeah, I agree. And I had just to supplement what you talked about with the liner. It's kind of like the base layer for your hands. It has other benefits, too. But if you just have like, kind of a Midway close fitting wool glove liner, you can apply that to an oversized waterproof glove or an extreme cold and is much warmer than a glove. So if you've got A warm Mitten that's designed for layering just like an outer heavily. Insulated puffy coat.

Tayson: Designed for layering you stick your your hand with the glove liner, inside the Mitten. And then, when you need to use your hands, you don't have to touch anything with your bare skin. And then like taste and says, you can dry your liners out much easier than To basically the tubes, which are the fingers of a glove. And yeah, just it's hard to dry gloves out. Mittens are easier to dry out because they're easier to turn inside out, but yeah.

Tayson: So really quick, I just wanted to back up specially these two things. They're nothing that we are looking to touch in the near future. I would say do you have any recommendations I guess. We'll go with gloves, middle back up to boots, but any quick recommendations on where to start looking for a glove or if you have a favorite glove, you know I would definitely back up your saying about mittens versus gloves. I'm kind of a mitten person myself, especially when

Tayson: I'm using liners because I can warm my fingers up. If I need them to be dexterous I'll pull them out and put them right back in that Mitten. But any thoughts on brands or specific units to go look for or things to see her clear from

Tayson: well, there are, there's a ton of gloves out there but Generally the your kind of your staple outdoor Brands like all throughout Outdoor Research. Extensive line of gloves. They seem to have an extensive line of accessories and cheese. Yeah. So that's gonna say like Gators gloves hats, but yeah, they have, they'll have gloves of all kind of insulation levels. They'll have mittens waterproof, wind stopper, neither of the above. But, yeah, I take a look at that and then you can piece

Tayson: them together, too, like find A pair of thin or medium weight will liner gloves, find an oversized glove or mitten? They don't have to be the same brand, just put them together in a system. Yeah, one

Tayson: thing that I've never attempted is to use a down like Mitten. There's some, there's some companies out there that make like a Downton. I have used like ultralight down mittens that are not waterproof, they've no membrane in them. But yeah, those are pretty cool too. I guess for more with three seasons application when I get into this fourth season definitely looking for something with the waterproof membrane because you're just gonna get your you're going to get snow on your hands

Tayson: somehow way shape form and it's it's really important to keep them dry. So Um, backing up to boots. Any input on like I don't know. Let's let's say you're gonna buy just a regular style boot with insulation, how much insulation are they looking for? Maybe that's just quickly explain the way that the insulation is sold. So for instance, my brother came any, any bought this boot and he said look, these boots have 600 grams of insulation. So they don't have 600

Tayson: grams of insulation. The insulation that was put in them, is 600 grams per square meter of weight, and then they've cut it and put it in there. So if you see something like that, what you're actually looking at is, it's not 6. Total insulation. It's that if they took that insulation, laid it out in a perfect square, you know, one meter by one meter. Then that one meter of fabric weighs 600 grams and then they're going to cut that up and

Tayson: put that in your boots. So I've seen insulations very you know very from like a 400 gram to an 800 gram and sometimes farther I believe the boots that I have are 800 it might be 600, but They've been a pretty solid boot for me in my application. I wouldn't say I'm using them in extreme situations but they've they've done well for me with, with that much insulation. 400 to me, might feel a little bit

Tayson: low. But yeah, I can't remember. Which what rating by booths are either they've served me well, for the last, probably four years that I had them. They're they're like a full grain leather boots so they're well-built and pretty sturdy. But again I mean where we live Is a lot of snow. It's the

Tayson: mountains and And write in an off on a tangent here. Yeah, full green like leather versus synthetic. Any thoughts on that for your boot?

Tayson: Trade-offs. Leather will retain heat better. It will stretch and contract more with moisture levels and and heat levels and drying out what not. Synthetic will breathe a lot better. So could be a good option for somebody that really has sweaty feet that may be isn't going to be in several feet of snow for hours and hours. But maybe just You know, six inches to a foot of snow for 20-30 minutes and then they're going to be dry the rest of the

Tayson: day. But yeah, that's a That's a hole to go down.

Tayson: yeah, I've had leather in the past, I wasn't a fan and it could have been because I didn't keep up on the treatments of the letters very important you know there's you've got to put some time and energy into treating that leather to make sure it stays you know the top shape, but stretching and the moisture, you know, some of that were things that I was against and then I've got, you know, sweaty feet so synthetic for me have always worked

Tayson: well, but there's some trade-offs so you can investigate that But obviously, Brigham's running leather and I'm running synthetic. So all right, we got to keep this conversation moving. Hopefully, that was Tangents good helpful stuff. The third thing that we put on the list here is something we touched on before, but we want to elaborate on this and that is going back to your sleeping pad, you know? If we had money to invest in better, winter setup. And we talked about buying

Tayson: a foam pad. Well, that's like a scene between a 20 and 40 dollar investment to add that foam pad but and even better option than that would be to go and buy a true High r value pad. Something like a thermarest xterm that's getting Daniel like a six r value you're going to take that to a much lower level. I guess, I don't know that off right off top my head but I would imagine take it down to zero degrees Fahrenheit,

Tayson: pretty easily with a essentially, a six R-value pad, you're going to save weight. You're Gonna Save bulk. It's just a it's not maybe a necessity but it's definitely a luxury and nice. Nice thing to have.

Tayson: Yeah, I agree. It's because we've talked about how effective the two pad system is because it really is effective but if you want to add just simplify your system make it more convenient that might make it more of a luxury item because You say so much space, say a little bit of weight, it's a good way to go. If you can, you know, if you can afford it and and make that jump to

Tayson: a really high r value pad and we say forward it because like, say the close up on tablet, say it's an average of 30 dollars, more of an investment. Whereas this, I looked up the prices on Amazon just before hopping in, you're looking at 215 for a regular and 255 for a long wide. So, it's a, it's an investment. You know, that's the same amount of money that you could buy a good set of boots for, you know, gloves, I guess

Tayson: they're going to be right around that. 100 dollar Mark, ever take a little depending on what you're shopping for for a good set. So it's it's an investment but and I honestly, I'll say I don't have a super high R value Pad, but it's something that I could see myself. painting in the future just just To simplify and take less bulk and keep my weight down and whatnot. All right. So that was number three. Number four, let's kind of get into

Tayson: some of this other stuff. Accessories. So The first thing we put down for this is mainly, like head gear accessories, but maybe there's more, we can touch on, but, you know, I think a lot of people are going to have, like a really lightweight Merino buff. We're gonna have one here pretty soon. If you haven't heard that, we'll put them on pre-sale for members. Hmm. Probably in the next month, you'll be able to pick those up. It's really cool piece is.

Tayson: But anyways, a lot of people have something like that but when you're getting into the winter it can be really stretching those pieces to to stay warm. And so you know you've got options of maybe taking up a flea Spa. but if you were really, you know, trying to get Some nicer gear together, you know, looking at something that might be more like, a down ball, a cloth or some down assesories. Could could definitely cut weight and be a luxury item.

Tayson: I've got it down. I had a down follicle lava. In the past and it was very nice piece. Looking forward to getting another one and it was just super light, super warm and it's just there's good piece of mind with it.

Tayson: yeah, the it's like the accessories in Winter. Backpacking are really cold Temps. They can just be that little bit of extra that make your trip more enjoyable or even doable. For some people, you know, things like a neck, gaiter, a heavier weight, neck gaiter, and the down ballot lava, or just stuff like that. Where you May exerting yourself quite a bit, but if there's a really strong wind and it's ice cold, that little bit of heat cutting into your, you know,

Tayson: that your collar area It can. be really uncomfortable, same thing with your ears, just those things are important to try and protect save some of your body heat, keep it in and

Tayson: Yeah, I would add here like as a guy that has a beard. I often forget to bring a face mask like because I'm just not very important during kind of three seasons stuff. And then we get into fourth season and sometimes I'll just forget it or like when I'm in like the edge of that shoulder season and I'll sleep out and I'll remember really quickly like the importance of the good face mask. and and good headgear, because You know, your cheeks,

Tayson: your cheeks, can get cold, and it can be uncomfortable, your nose can get cold, and that can be uncomfortable. And so these little touch points here can easily be the difference between a good comfortable night and just that little thing that keeps you up longer than you want to be up or makes you wake up every once in a while.

Tayson: For sure. It's like the pad we've talked about. We've put a pretty strong emphasis on the pad in your your sleep system. Almost just an accessory to that is, like, covering your head and your face. It will make a big difference in your sleep, even if you've got a great path and a great bag, it's just that obnoxious, little Chill on your face or coming into your neck. That makes a big difference and can be the difference between sleeping soundly and

Tayson: warm and just sleeping warm, broken up into tossing and turning and, you know, the

Tayson: other big thing, especially as a guy who Kind of builds. His business on sleeping bags is by having a good face gear. It's going to keep View from caving, putting your head inside your sleeping bag. Yeah.

Tayson: Right, people do that all the time like just got so cold. So I stuck my head in my sleeping bag and and you know, if you don't know when you do that, you just start breathing all this condensation into your sleeping bag and you, you're gonna start getting colder. Everywhere the longer you do that, man, you know, putting it in there for five 10 minutes, you might be safe. But like if you put your head in there and then fall asleep,

Tayson: you might wake up soaking wet, you might just It's gonna start zapping that, that heat from you. And so, by having good head Where It's Gonna Keep you for making that mistake, which then can perpetuate the problem. So all right, so go pick up a down balaclava or something of that nature. Again, this is something that we hope to have a really cool answer for coming up. I don't know. I won't say. It's something that's on our radar. I'll put it

Tayson: that way. Number five here, just Puffy puffy, puffy stuff. So I got Down pants down, socks down, jackets or puffy pants. Puffy. Socks puffy. Jackets, this is a pretty critical piece. It's it's something that is just gonna make your life so much more enjoyable. If you have them, I've got some down. I'm obviously, when I go out, I'll typically bring My my personal systems. I'll bring my base layer and then and that's usually like a DragonWool. Hoodie is my favorite

Tayson: base layer, even for winter camping, I'll wear that next to skin and then the next thing I'll put on typically is the Loft tech jacket. I like that because I can still move around still very feel, very safe. And if it gets moist at all, And then I'll put on our down jacket as my next layer and then I'll always bring a rain jacket. But usually, I'm not using that. I'm trying to keep that off of me so that moisture can

Tayson: move out away from my body as it's generated. But so you use two puffies, essentially on my top half and then I have a down puffy pants that I'll put on for just around camp and you can't hike in these things, you'll you'll get so hot so fast. But at night time, you're hanging out your cooking. Maybe you're sitting around a fire and those down puffy pants. Warm, and they're just comfortable and they're definitely nice to have. All. So like down

Tayson: socks or puffy socks. You know, a lot of people bring like a like a big oversized thick pair of wool socks and that's that's a nice option. But I can tell you personally, putting on a pair of down socks is extremely nice. In fact, the one time that I that I did get frostbite and my foot I had some down socks. I was bringing with me and I would think all day about climbing in my sleeping bag, putting those things on,

Tayson: and just letting my feet be warm while I was sleeping. And that was like something that kept me going because I just knew my feet would be warm and mentally. It was great. It was, it was phenomenal. And so the night that I found out that I pushed my limits too far, I put those on and got on my bag and my feet. Just felt so funny. And I'm like, I'll try to warm him up. They're still numb. And they just

Tayson: Didn't really get the feeling back. Oh, okay, this is where we're at. But, but man, I love, I love, good pair down. Socks, I've tried multiple trade some cheap ones. I've tried some expensive ones and I will say my cheap ones did not perform and I can't even pinpoint exactly why or what they didn't work. But again this is something on our radar. But yeah, just think about adding any puffs. Insulation layers that you can for winter scenarios because it's gonna

Tayson: help and it's gonna be way more comfortable.

Tayson: Yeah, I just say it's kind of just stepping up your insulation system and there's a lot of side benefits if you can do it. Because It with winter with winter camping and backpacking, you're taking more with you. And we've talked about in the previous podcasts, you need to be able to carry all that. So you have to have a pack that's big enough to fit it. So so volume is at a premium weight. Is it a premium? So if you're adding

Tayson: some down insulation, It's lighter and more compressible, kind of helps counter all the extra stuff that you're bringing. So, you know, if, if you can swing it, it's always great if you can use the same backpack. So yeah, step up the insulation.

Tayson: Yeah, one thought here. That I that I tend to just kind of do as a rule of thumb. Without, I don't think I'm super conscious about it like verbally, but I definitely think of it this way. I will pack down and Loft Tech items for sure. I'll carry them because the Duke compress and they are super lightweight. Anything that's like a little bit heavier like say I was just gonna wear a straight up synthetic jacket or bring wool pieces or different

Tayson: things. I typically put those on my body or I plan on wearing them a lot of the time so that I don't have to pack them. So off to try to get them to compress something to think about. As you are mapping out a layering system, like we mentioned in the first one, you can get a buy by, you know, finding some good fleece pieces for Mid layers but man, they, you know, when I would think of those, I would think

Tayson: I want to be wearing those as much as possible because they're not gonna pack down like down. They're not gonna compress, they're gonna be a little bit more heavy bulky. So if I can leave them on my body, if I'm looking at them as pieces that I almost plan on, don't taking off. It's a lot easier for me to mentally want to Brigham. So Just another side thought there but go, you know, up level your insulation stuff. Put some investment

Tayson: there and you'll definitely be happy with that. Jumping into mid layers, we've touched on this a little bit. But, you know, up leveling your mid layers as well whether that's getting some new wool pieces, you know, some some different layering pieces those can all be super helpful, anything you can think of break them that three seasoned Backpacker might not have, or might just want to upgrade first thing when it comes to made layers or base layers.

Tayson: Yeah, that's one of those things that luckily, most people have, you know, they've got something that serves that the purpose of the mid layer. A lot of guys will have like a lighter mid-weight fleece pullover hoodie or something like that, which is, it's kind of nice because there's a lot of stuff you need for winter. So analyze what you have see, what's going to work the best. Again I I think for a mid layer a light to Midway Please is really

Tayson: effective because they're warm, but you can do some work in them, and they breathe. So well,

Tayson: yeah, and just to point out a feature here, You know, the reason that we put those big sides zippers on our dragon wall, to go all the way down light to take those pieces off. That would be something, it would be like a look, like kind of a luxury item essentially when you're thinking of this because adding and removing layers in the winter, it's it can be painful. It's something you don't really want to do. You don't want to pull your

Tayson: snow boots off. When it's freaking cold, you don't have a place to stand, you might get your socks in the snow, which is a big No-No. So, being able to have like something like those Dragon will pieces that fold. These zip off is a large luxury item and can definitely make your life better in that regard. But yeah, this is definitely an area where most people are going to have things. That they can double up on use from summer or three

Tayson: seasons and set ups already. Person. Now we've kind of covered the, what I'd say that, the priority things, the things that are more critical going to have biggest bang for your buck in the investment side and we're going to start getting into more of the like Bigger Investments. I guess that maybe less return on investment but if you're doing this a lot could totally totally be worth it. Starting with snowshoes or skis. Something that that we've used a little bit around

Tayson: here. I'm I wouldn't say I'm like Someone who's used in a time I, you know, started using snow shoes mainly haven't really done much for for cross country, skiing would like to I think we'll get a trip planned this winter to to try that out and do some more of that but that's definitely an investment if you're trying to cover more than, you know, mile or two and a day and you've got more than a foot worth of snow, you're gonna

Tayson: be pretty miserable, it's going to be pretty tough. And peace is like that. Are going to make your life a whole lot better.

Tayson: Yeah, they do. And that's probably about 10 years ago is when I got my first pair of snow shoes and it was just because it was so much work trying to cover ground because I I've always wondered Winter Camp the winter backpacked and after, man a mile. It's your you're just smoked, you know, I mean so so anything that I could do or acquire to just, let me cover ground more efficiently, that's what got me into the snowshoes. And here's the

Tayson: thing, snowshoeing to me is not a fun activity. It's a means of transportation that is a little bit better than just walking. It's It's not

Tayson: easy. Doesn't know. Like no. It's it's skiing like I've done it a little bit but it's been so long is skiing a lot easier. A lot more fun,

Tayson: maybe more fun. So Like I said, I've been using snowshoes for about 10 or 11 years, so I've used them extensively, but I'm always like looking to improve, and maybe two or three years ago, I started just looking into cross-country skis. Not, they're not what you would classify as Alpine touring. Those are the guys that the zigzag up a mountain and ski down at this is just covering moderate rolling terrain like like you would on a hiking trail and the reason

Tayson: was is because I did it so much that I wanted to be more efficient. So I started looking into Nordic skiing. So I actually got a pair because everything that I read was its 10 times more efficient than snowshoeing, and I'm still working on the skill set, it's tough. I hadn't been on skis for like At least 10 years and I got on those and I didn't realize that I could slip out and fall on my back with 190, centimeter skis

Tayson: on, but I did, and anyway,

Tayson: so I'm trying to, I'm trying to Google this kind of look at what these are for those. That might not know what a Nordic ski is. It looks like it's just this really long skinny, skinny, skis. And we've got

Tayson: to be careful. Not to go too deep because there's all kinds of types. There's the really skinny racing ones that are for packed trails. And then the ones that I have are considered more of a backcountry. Styles the ski that's for loose snow not packed Trails or anything. So they're wider have a more parabolic shape and they have steel edges but They are way more efficient. I've done several trips with them. And as long as I'm on fairly flat terrain, I'm

Tayson: fine. It's it's amazing how much ground you can cover in half the time. So it's definitely worth, you know, looking at those things to just increase your efficiency of travel in the snow and and I'll emphasize this is strictly for if you're in an area that is completely covered with snow in the winter months. If it's like six inches deep, this isn't even a conversation. So

Tayson: yeah, I I am interested in this because I kind of have your same thought like snowshoes work but I don't feel efficient in them ever like They're way more efficient than no shoes, but I'm like, I'm on snow, like should Glide a little bit or something here. So Just gonna I'm just gonna throw this back out, we won't dive into it. We're definitely not X. I don't feel like I'm an expert on this, so I don't want to speak on this.

Tayson: But if any of you listeners have ideas for me, I would like to pick up a pair of snowshoes. This winter. I've been kind of borrowing and, and different things over the years. I'd like to buy my own pair of snowshoes or if you've got an alternative, like, like you mentioned that Alpine touring, Um Brigham. You know, I'm kind of interested like to me that makes almost more sense than a snowshoe but I have no experience. I haven't done the research.

Tayson: So if you've got input or thoughts on this Email, I'm in. I would definitely be interested in hearing from you guys. So just email support us, calm, save and listening to the podcast and you have some thoughts for for me and they'll make sure that gets to me. But, anyways, we'll kind of move on from the snowshoes and skiing section of this, and let's jump into the next one. I'm actually gonna reverse this order. We'll kind of cover these together. But,

Tayson: you know, do people need and what are your thoughts on a Four Season tent?

Tayson: That's another Trident and true gear item that's been around for a long time. So there's obviously a need and the performance is there. To me. That kind of goes back to what type of trip the person is doing and again the overnight versus multi-day. Really comes into play again, a Four Season tent on like a three season, 10 actually does retain heat. So in a Four Season tent with no heat Source you can, Probably add 10 to 15 degrees to the

Tayson: inner temperature, of the tent versus the outside. Once you're in it. They actually retain heat,

Tayson: but is that because of their Fabrics? Or just, because they go all the way to the ground of the fabric. Both,

Tayson: because they go all the way to the ground, and then it's kind of like a double paid in window. So, a house with just a single pane window, is not as warm as a house with double pane windows. So it's yeah, you're talking about thin Fabrics but they don't use mashed they use a solid fabric. So it's just yeah that kind of concept.

Tayson: Yeah, so I've never used a Four Season tent, really in the traditional setup. I could see how it'd be beneficial having a little bit thicker materials and You know, just going to the ground like that. Sometimes I will say that sometimes I'll go kick snow kind of a round, the edge of my tent a little bit to seal it up a little bit because most three seasons are gonna come within say four to five inches of the ground. And so if

Tayson: you go kick a little snow around, a lot of times you can kind of seal those up and make them feel a little forth season. I will say, I typically only do that on the side. The wind is coming from and I'll leave the other side to open for a little bit of venting. It's a piece, it's definitely something you should look at. They're going to be better at snow load they're gonna be better. Heat retention. What about condensation is that?

Tayson: Like a do you kind of lose with that? Or is it just not?

Tayson: Well, that's a pretty good because they're double layer. They're double wall. So they'll do better than a single wall. Yeah.

Tayson: But there, I mean, there's always trade-offs. They're heavier obviously. And they're very expensive, so it comes into analyze, the type of trips that you do. And if, if you don't anticipate heavy, wind load, heavy snow load and multi-day trips. You really can't get away with the three season tent, a good quality, three season 10.

Tayson: so, they'll say this way, they haven't interested me enough to really Go and invest in one but I will tell you what does interest mean? And that is hot tents. We dabbled a little bit with this last year. Bought a titanium wood burning stove that you could put inside of a tent. Typically, you're going to want to buy a tent that is going to be set up to use that a couple quick, you know, ones that come to mind for me,

Tayson: are seek outside. They do a really good job, there's one called Luxe, hiking gear, I believe, but Just looked at their website, they struggle to keep things in stock, but their pricing is better. So, if you wanted to watch for those, maybe could pick one up there but seek outside, it's probably more premium. And a little bit, or at least that's the the perceived look here, Matt, look like I've talked with the guys that seek they're just really stand up. Guys,

Tayson: they're innovators. I appreciate that about them. But basically, what you're going to do is you're going to get something like a teepee setup.

Tayson: And then you're going to put a stove inside of it and it is amazing how much heat a little piece of you know nylon or polyester 20 denier piece. Can how much heat that can hold in when you've got that fire going super impressed with it. You know, I remember sitting there we had three guys kind of sitting in the tent, just hanging out. We didn't have to deal with smoked or ashes, burning anything. But we got plenty of heat. And

Tayson: I had my boots sitting right next to that thing. I could see the steam coming off my boots out from inside my boot, like it was drying out, the gear, just an extremely nice. Piece. Now I will say this is gonna be more advantageous if you're doing if you're hiking with two people to kind of split up that load because that titanium stove, I want to say is in between two and three pounds on its own. And then you've got the

Tayson: shelter self, which is probably gonna be another two to three pounds. So if you've got two people to split that up with it's a little bit better, but even as one person, it's not the worst thing in the world. And then if you're using it for multi days, being able to dry your gear out like that morale, whatever it is. Just a really cool unique piece that it's very specific to one application. But Something that again, something that I'm personally, very

Tayson: interested in like, say, I've got, I've got a titanium stove. I set it up in our Outdoor Vitals Dominion. 2 person tent, our older version of a slightly bigger and it worked really well, but it definitely wasn't. Ideal. I would say for it, if I wanted to put two people in there, it would have been difficult because the way that I had to get it set up like to sleep, you know, we could sit all in there but to sleep a

Tayson: couple people in there. What would have been a little bit tougher? I was a little bit nervous about the stove, being close to the rain fly and a few things like that. But man, it definitely got me thinking, if I was bringing my kids, my wife out, it would be worth the investment, absolutely, to have that for a Four Seasons and set up.

Tayson: Yeah, it's it's a comfort set up. but it actually is pretty consistent with some like ultralight principles of multi-purpose and multi-use because it's it makes your tent warm. And dry your stuff out. You can melt snow on top of that with some dish. No puns.

Tayson: Which is if you I just gotta go on this tangent really fast. If you go out there and you're like, I'm just gonna melt snow for water, like, using my stove, like a alcohol stove or a gas stove. You have no idea how much fuel you burn to do that. It takes so long to melt snow, it drives me nuts. So yeah, we just sat there in the tent, every few minutes, we'd reach out there, some more snow, put it back

Tayson: on the stove and we melted it a ton of snow so love that one. And then kind of what just to build on what you're saying right there. Because again I'm kind of like a guy who's like, I don't really want Pac boots. They're so big. So heavy. I really love Lightfoot wear. It really helps me feel better on the

Tayson: trail, so if you've got a set up like this and every night you can dry your shoes out of a little bit. That might be able to save you a pound and Footwear you know and just the feeling of hiking throughout the whole day that those heavier boots. So to me like that that also would be a really big perk. Is you'd fill a whole lot better. Bringing just a typical hiking boot with with insulation in it because it's a very

Tayson: good chance. You're gonna get those pretty dang dry every single night. So go check those out there. They're not, they're just a really cool piece and I think they're for our industry. Our crowd, they're probably pretty specific to being used, just in that fourth season. Some of them have gear nests inside of them, that you can go for like bugs when, when you're out in the summer, but I don't know if those are necessarily the lightest or best options. For summer

Tayson: use. But for winter use, two thumbs up. All right. We'll touch on this really briefly. Gas stoves and again, kind of a luxury item. We've found a lot of ways to work around it. Not really needing it. Oh, backing up. Backing up to that. Four Season tent. We touched on this. But you can totally eliminate a stove. So when I took that that titanium stove with me, I did not bring a gas canister. It did not bring a pocket rocket. I

Tayson: didn't bring any of that. I just brought a pot and that was all I needed. So there's one other gear item that you can eliminate out of your system. Maybe not every time, but for me, in the setup we were doing, I was just fine, leaving another stove behind. So back to the white gas stove, that's against something that can be nice. If you're going into extreme extreme, I mean, like Sub-Zero temperature, it's probably more of a necessity, but we've always

Tayson: found pretty good luck. Working around that, you know, warming up, your gas warming up your stove and lighting it and using it. And that's always worked just fine for us. But again, that's just something you could look at is a more of a, you know, just Peace of Mind piece. And then from there, you know, something else you can investment invest in is just rewater proofing. Your gear that's gonna be super cheap one. We could have easily put that in the

Tayson: budget section of this podcast series. But you know, for 10 bucks. You could get another Nick wax treatment water re-waterproof, you know, just wash it in to all of your layers and just gonna help keep everything more dry. And from absorbing that moisture, when you don't want them to, Sock, safety for a minute. What do you think are some of the most important things, Brigham that they could spend money on

Tayson: for safety in the winter? Yeah, a couple we can touch on that are are a significant amount of money, but if you're in in the mountains and you're in the backcountry, it's very wise to have a Avalanche and Avalanche Beacon. you know, you it's very hard for somebody to mitigate all Avalanche risk if you're set on traveling in those mountainous terrain. Like so if you're if you're just set on it you better know what you're doing and if you do then

Tayson: you probably already have a beacon but if you're in avalanche terrain check your Avalanche forecasts and carry a beacon. Another one is an enriched whether you're an avalanche country or not, just something. Again because we we talked about last podcast with all the freezing temperatures, it's just more critical, safety is more critical, your ability to help yourself or others is more critical. Just more, can go wrong. So having, you know, a satellite messaging device, something to get help, maybe it's not

Tayson: even for you or somebody in your party. But It's always good to be ready to help other people, too. So satellite Avalanche Beacon, satellite messaging device. And then I would also add A shovel, like a Backcountry shovel. So I when I was in high school Found one, when I was snowmobiling and I still have that same shovel, that's the one that I still take. And so they're good for helping out in an avalanche situation, but they're all so good for setting

Tayson: up your Camp whether it's setting up a fire area digging down or leveling out a tent site, there's just really useful to have

Tayson: Yeah. Real quick, I want to touch on one other safety piece and then I kind of want to wrap up with with this thought. I had. As you're talking through that firestarters, you know, just making sure that you've got a very good way to start a fire things. Don't often want to cooperate in the winter and it can be extremely critical, you know, you get into a bad situation fires. One of the first things that's going to help to make it

Tayson: better planning at your trips, you know, maybe a beacon. You know, something I personally invested in but I also don't Backpack around. Steep, right. Nasty country. That could potentially Avalanche by definitely take a Garmin in reach. I leave that pretty accessible. And I, I just feel like, that's a really critical piece to keep with with me during this time. But yeah, safety is critical this time of year when you're out. Backpacking. As I'm thinking about this. It could get nasty, you

Tayson: know? Like I don't think like that very often. um, but I think that's because I we do this enough and I mean, backpack in the summer, backpack in the fall and then the winner comes and it's just a natural progression. And we've done this so much that there's so much confidence that gets built up to where I don't often think, you know, worst case scenarios and stuff. But you know sometimes when you stop and think about this, you're like man that

Tayson: could get really ugly really fast. Something something, severe happens or maybe it's just a scenario. Like your boots get totally soaked out. You can't get a warm back up and you're many miles away from the road. You can't just like bail out of there. You know? This. It could get ugly fast but I don't think that that's any reason to not go. What I guess I'm getting at is build your confidence and this will seem easy and safe and fun. You

Tayson: know, Go backpack in the summer, Go backpack in the fall. If you want to go in the winter and you haven't gone before go close to a road and just do it, just practice build up checklists, right? Like I love personal checklists go start like go pull our checklist off our website. You like punching your email and email you a checklist but then go take that and modify it and build it and every time you do that you gain confidence and

Tayson: you gain confidence and over time, the stuff doesn't seem scary anymore. It doesn't seem crazy, right? Sometimes I tell people what I do and they're just like, you're crazy. I would never do that. It's me. I'm like, it's not crazy. I do this all the time, like there's nothing scary or, you know, whatever about it but it's that practice of building that confidence, building your confidence, whether it's in your gear, your skill set Slowly eliminating any of those unknowns there would

Tayson: be involved in a trip like this.

Tayson: Yeah, totally agree. It's pretty cool. How much? Confidence can come from somebody doing one winter trip. Because it's like an aha moment. It's like, wow, this was Not that bad. And it proves to them that they can do it and it just gives them that much more confidence and momentum to just keep going to do it again and

Tayson: again. Yeah. You see it when you take someone out backpacking for the first time you see it. When you take someone out winter camping for the first time, there's just that aha, I just clicks. And like I say if you just plan you can do this very safe, very fun, very effective. So that's our pitch to you. Get out there and do this stuff, build your confidence, whether you haven't backpacked before and you know, in the winter and you need to

Tayson: just do this spider car and just go out there. I mean you can go to a campsite that typically would be flooded in the summer. Stay in your car right next to your car and have a totally tranquil secluded experiment experience. If you're someone who's done this enough to get out and do it, you know, a little bit farther away like it's it's so worth it that that tranquility. Challenge of it, the funus of it, the the longer nights you can,

Tayson: you know? It's it's a good time. It's a great time to be outside. It's fun. It keeps you going in the winter. You know there's there's it's seasonal depression is a real real thing. You know we talk about it, openly around the office. Sometimes there's like man we just Feel like I need to get outside. I feel like I need sunlight. I feel like I need fresh air because I can feel my mental health deteriorating. And this is a great thing

Tayson: to look at To, to get more serious about, you know, and all seriousness. There's we don't build a whole lot of stuff like we don't outfit, people completely top, you know, tip toe for winter setup. Something That We're passionate about and hopefully we can we can spread a little bit of knowledge on it and get excited about doing it. Because I think once you do it, you take that fear out, it can help you. Stay more mentally, happy through the winter.

Tayson: It can keep you going. Can keep you in. Shape can keep you just a better all around. So hopefully this little mini podcast series was helpful. We will continue it in about a month. I believe is the current plan to go into the skills of winter backpacking specifically talking about you know do's and don'ts and you know strategies tactics of different things but hopefully covered a lot of the gear stuff so hopefully you can use this information if you're looking to

Tayson: pick up some gear pieces you know, on holiday sales or whatever it is and then we'll dive more into the skill sets. A little bit later. Anything else. We need to add here, Brigham before we wrap up. No, I think it's been a good one. Yeah, I've enjoyed the conversation. I hope you guys have as well. If you have, make sure to go and review the podcast on iTunes or wherever that you listen. Share the podcast. If you think this

Tayson: is something that can be helpful specific. Share it with your backpacking, buddy, that you want to go winter camping with you. Hopefully it'll get him out and both of you can can get out on the trail. So thanks for being with us. Make sure you're subscribed and we'll catch you on the next episode. Own,

Tayson: hey everybody. This is Tayson again. And really quick, I wanted to invite you to join, probably the best thing that we've ever put out which is the Live Ultralight membership, buying and affording gear is arguably. The biggest reason that people don't get out and truly enjoy nature. You want to go but you don't trust your gear. It can't handle the expected, weather, or temperature ranges, or you simply don't have the right gear in the first place at all. That's exactly why

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