Tayson: So here's the big question, how do we lighten our gear and build our confidence. So we can start living a life full of Outdoor Adventures and memories without having unlimited amounts of time money and previous experience. That's the big question and we are here to help you find the answers. This is the little trolley podcast power, bi Outdoor Vitals. Hey, what's up listeners? Welcome back to the Live Ultralight podcast. Thanks for tuning in today. On the podcast, we're gonna be covering
Tayson: the topic of the Sawtooth pant. Design Story, talk about kind of the idea behind it. Go through the design process applications where we were out there. Testing it feedback, you just a whole story of how the pants came to be. We, recently were able to start. We recently shipped out all of the kickstarter and Indiegogo presell orders as well as membership, presale orders. And so people can getting them, the feedback has been coming in. We've been super soaked about it and
Tayson: we've just put them now on the website. So that is a good time to just revisit this and really dive through the technical details of the pants. We know that you guys love to hear the technical details of the pants but more importantly, I guess, the real reason that sometimes we do some of these things you can find in a previous podcast but we just find that it instills a ton of confidence in our listeners, our followers and, you know, you
Tayson: deserve to know what's going on in your pants deserve to know what's going on your gear so that you know how to best use it, and how to best, apply it to yourself. And again just to build that confidence that you can have a great time and the applications you've used it. So got Brigham our designer on the podcast to talk through this with me and we'll just yeah just be covering a lot of this. I did want to touch on
Tayson: one thing on our last episode, we did talk about the Dragon Ball products and we have sold through pretty much everything that we had that came on on first shipment. We actually had to Airship a lot of that and, well, all of what we have so far and that was really expensive but we did it to make sure we got these priesthood. Pre-orders, out and whatnot. And so there's not a whole lot on the website, but, just know that around the
Tayson: second week I would say around the 10th. January, we're gonna get a second shipment in. So those of you that are feeling bad that you may be didn't get to. Pick up any Dragon Ball yet, it is going to be coming, we're not stocked out for the winter or anything like that but be aware. If you, if you're interested in any of these products, I would just recommend acting sooner than later because of situations like that so. Well, Brigham, it is
Tayson: the holiday season. You got anything exciting going on. Are you doing any trips or you gonna be hanging out around the house? Mainly with the family.
Brigham: know, we'll be we'll be going out of town, actually this weekend for a very brief trip and then we'll come back to work for like two and a half days and then go back out of town for like four days for, you know, for Christmas and whatnot.
Tayson: So fun traveling here in your agenda Thena.
Brigham: Yeah. Yeah. But I'm looking forward to it.
Tayson: Yeah, it's exciting. I'm gonna be heading up the mountain here and hanging out in a cabin with my wife's family. Should be a good time. Definitely. My kids are looking forward. He will, my boy woke up this morning. It's like it's cabin day. It's Kevin day. So
Tayson: he's loving it. He's got a little sled that I pulled out of the shed. He's from last year that I think he'd already forgot about it. He's four. So yeah. He's so hopefully, hopefully all of you guys are getting out and Time in the winter months, even it's still a great time to be out, so I'm definitely looking forward to it. But yeah, let's let's dive into the pants. I think what's interesting about the pants is I had actually started the
Tayson: the process of the pants a little bit before we brought you on Brigham. But this has been a journey. It's been a long one but man it's been a fun one and it's fun if I finally ship these out and start getting those comments to come in but I don't know where to start, I guess, I guess I could tell start by telling the story of, you know, for long time for years. Now, I have been pretty anti denim jeans, I
Tayson: picked up a pair of and just to be Totally Frank. I picked up some piranha pants and the stretch and and stuff that I started to fill and experience and those, I loved it. Like I just, it felt so much better than wearing these tight restrictive jeans that I've been wearing my whole life and I couldn't really go back. And so, I started wearing these technical pants, essentially, around town, and all over, and my wife started to kind of call me
Tayson: out on it. And this doesn't look great. You know what happened to wear in jeans and, you know, and so it just all kind of came together. I'm like, you know what? I can see some real needs here, and I could see some real
Tayson: opportunities to do something different in this market. And that's where the spark started. You know, we launched the The Loft jacket, it had a lot of success and we were like, you know, I think we could do okay in apparel and I think we have some ideas that we could apply and so we started down this path. I had previously been looking at fabric suppliers. I kind of played out some other things because it was in the back of my mind
Tayson: for sure. And essentially Through all of that, decided to kind of go down the path of using tour a more I thought San Francisco met them and kind of from that point forward. It was like, you know, we're gonna use Tori. It's just a really good fit, the Fabrics that they had shown me. I really liked, you know, they had zero spandex in them, but saw that mechanical stretch incredible dry time. It's just just some really high-quality and i stuff and
Tayson: I just like the atmosphere that I had there too. As far as still level of quality that they cared about you could just tell at every level. And so I was pretty excited. Got started with that sentiment over some initial Plans ideas, Concepts, and man, if you ever saw like the tech packs that I turned out there, they were a lot of Photoshop editing, and things of that nature, but I think that by the time you got here, bring him. I
Tayson: had Like a, some samples. Yeah, there was a Yeah, there was a sample
Brigham: if I think of first sample was one. Mmm.
Tayson: So we had this sample and and you know, We're Off to the Races, but yeah, I mean I just kind of wanted to touch on what I was really hoping to accomplish with the pan, just a little bit deeper and that was really, I wanted a technical pant that was comfortable to wear each and every day had that stretch built in had The comics, the skin, all those things. But I also wanted to pant that was super technical Focus, you know,
Tayson: quick dry times again with the stretch, you know, things like gusseted crotch. But but you know, I didn't love zip offs and I had some different pants and really like Technical looking pants, big cargo pants type things that have sides Advanced and so I'd experienced those little bit. And I and that was definitely my preference of what to use because I could vent when I'm hiking. Anyways, all these things were things that I was really looking for but I just thought
Tayson: I could get and design a really technical pant that I could wear every day. Because that was my goal that I wanted to simplify I wanted one pair of pants that I could. Pretty much live my life out of every day with her. I'm traveling with her backpacking. Well there, I'm going to work with them. Doing a business pitch or you know, whatever it is, I wanted to be able to use that. And so that was kind of the idea the
Tayson: premise beside behind getting started in this. That ended up full circling when it came to finally naming the pants and naming it. The Sawtooth pin which sought to you and Malay. ER, Indonesian means one symbolizes again to me the purpose of the pan, Which is to have the one pair of pants that can really do everything at a good good level. So, Anyways, so I had started. This design process, Brigham comes on and You know, we start, we start going at
Tayson: this Brigham. What were your first impressions? Maybe I have never asked you this, but what are your like what were you like First Impressions when you saw the product and had kind of saw the vision of what I was
Brigham: trying to put together? This could be negative. I like I like the fabric and like the overall concept of the pant trying to make it a very widely versatile pant. yeah, the fact that I like the fabric, I definitely saw the like the potential for the pant. so, it was kind of a You know, pants are it's a big project to undertake. There's just so much that goes into it because If you think about your pants cover, like half of your
Brigham: your the length of your body in there, and your legs are such a moving Dynamic part of your body. So there's just a lot that goes into it so and there's so many different fits. You know,
Tayson: yes too. Like you think of like a top and You know there's very there's a lot less variation in how a top fits versus a pair of pants.
Brigham: Yeah well and and for a pair of pants to to work for all kinds of scenarios or activity levels. That getting it to fit, right? So that it can do a wide variety of things comfortably, is that that's a big challenge. So I mean, I definitely saw that as A big challenge that we were going to have to tackle and I saw the potential of the pants, you know, I I saw things about I guess the the design or the fit
Brigham: as it was when I got here, that I thought could be improved. And so that was I mean all that Wrapped up into one it just was a big undertaking and but also a big opportunity too. Yeah,
Tayson: it really was. I don't think I realized what I was biting off when I started that project. You know, around that time we have the Loft Tech jackets and we were starting to deliver some of those and we're seeing we're learning a lot about sizing and I think that's one thing. I just reiterated so many times with the Brigham was like we have to nail the sizing. We have to nail the sizing. and you know, that that turned out to be
Tayson: a lot, a lot of tweaking and dialing because when you've never made anything before for like a pant, you have nothing to start with nothing to base it off of So we we learned some lessons. Definitely going through that process. But it's wild to me. I mean, it's been two full years essentially, in in full on, you know, going after samples and whatnot for me. I've pretty much hiked exclusively in Sawtooth pants or shorts. Two years. Now, finally bringing a market
Tayson: is just kind of wild, I guess, the thing back on. But yeah, so when you'd come on, we were pretty far down, like picking the type of fabric we were, we were quite a ways down. Some of this, we started to dial in sizing and figure out how we were gonna approach. Sizing in a more Hands-On method and and figuring out the greeting and the size and adjustments and all these types of things. What was interesting about? This product, probably more
Tayson: than probably a little bit more than like, say the dragon will is a lot of the development and the tweaks and the design came from you, like tons of use, just tons of it, right? Like So I think as we go throughout this, that will be something that's that's super interesting. So, before I kind of dive into stories side of use cases, and where we came up with this idea and some of that, let's talk for a minute about Tori and
Tayson: visiting them. So we have a pretty good relationship with Toure. We met them. We'd like them a lot. We've talked about going and visiting those factories in previous podcasts as well. So if you're interested in not going, listen, but so maybe I won't go too far into that but we went and visited Tori about a year ago this month I guess and toward their cutting so Factory and saw just a lot and just that I think that really solidified it for
Tayson: us to as far as how much we were willing to start working with Tori and this project other projects, because the the level of quality level of production was just so high and got us really, really excited about it. So, Um, we've kind of double down and you'll see more stuff launched with Tori in the near future and then I'm just in the future in general too. It's gone going. We have so many projects up and running with them but So
Tayson: yeah, let's just kind of, I don't even know where to start. So much, so much stuff here. That was just tweaks along the way, I guess. I'll say this. From the original onset, the idea stayed pretty stagnant like the idea of what the pan would be in. The end was pretty Stallard. Pretty much the same. We did so many little tweaks before and So that that was for so much of all this came in but I guess for starters, one of
Tayson: the times that I knew we were really onto something. Great was when I was out on a backpacking trip in Colorado. and it was, you know, November time frame and it was getting hot in the days, but it's tons of snow on the ground and that equates to a lot of moisture. Essentially, you sit on the ground, you get wet. You on the ground, you get wet, you brush up against bushes. You're going to get wet. And that day on three
Tayson: different occasions. I had melted in the snow and got my nice soaking wet. And each and every time it took so, little amount of time for those knees, those knee sections, that Pantages, completely dry out. And keep in mind, this is November. So it's not hot. Maybe 40s in the day or something like that. And and just watching that fabric work was was really impressive. And at that point in time too, we had a ham adjustment that was down around the
Tayson: ankle and you could tighten that up. In this case scenario, the snow wasn't incredibly deep but it was nice to be able to seal that out. And so I started using it kind of just to seal around my boot. The original idea of that actually was just to be able to roll up the pant. Roll up the pant, whether you're crossing a river, right, in a bike, something like that. And this is the first time I got to really apply it
Tayson: in a snow situation and used it there, and it works super super well, but occasionally, it would pop up and over the top of my boot. It's the snow got a little too deep. So I came back and thought was what if we could find a little tiny lace clip that we could clip to the pant and essentially make a gator or a makeshift key or out of it. And so we ended up looking around and finding a tiny little removable
Tayson: clip and using that and that, you know, that trip I think was definitely one that I remember is seeing the pant in a lot of the potential and More of the dexterity and Broad use of the pant to kind of kick off. I guess some of the design aspects of it. Trying to think of when you might have been able to Brigham take, you know, start start wearing those pants around when we started to get sizing for you and what
Tayson: trips we took, you know, your first Times using the pant?
Brigham: Yeah, I don't think we had anything in my size until it was, I mean, it would have been Feel like it was like last fall. Hmm.
Brigham: when we got, I mean, we got a Big. A load of samples like dozens of samples that was really the first time I had any in my size. I'm trying to think if my first use of them was on like an outdoor application or if it was more just around. Town. You know, just like day-to-day going to the office whatever social settings. And then also, Probably the most extensive use would have been like, in in Vietnam. because
Tayson: that was, I wore those like half the trip. Yeah. And
Brigham: so that's kind of like a traveling, but like we were in the North End of Vietnam and the south end of Vietnam and there was like a 30 degree difference between the two, whereas like it was like 60 degrees, maybe 70 degrees up North. But then when we went down south, it was like 90 degrees, right?
Brigham: So that was probably like my first it's a good point about that, I could think about like honestly, I don't think it was Hiking. I think maybe I did. Like ran up in some like my morning hikes in them. But like kind of long-term like day after day, it was probably that trip. Yeah.
Tayson: And and that's a good point though. To you when I think about doing international travel and things chances always in my in my agenda, even if I'm going to a more tropical warm environment because You can be on a plane, you can be wherever and man, someone's blowing the air, he gets cold and it's just nice to have that dexterity which kind of comes into the fabric weight. A little bit to me Fabrics about 170 180 Grand per square meter. Which
Tayson: to me has been a really good, sweet spot. It's not a heavy pan. It's not like a, I'd say like a warm pant, you're not going to really generate much warmth out of the pan and whatnot, but it is have to really break the wind out and to, you know, still work in a very broad range in both cold and then in the, in the heat, And the heat. It breathes really well. It's, you know, there's there's potentially lighter pan Fabrics
Tayson: out there for hot weather, but for what it is, I've really enjoyed the fabric weight. And just I wear it year round. I mean I really do. Wear it all summer and I wear it all winter essentially and it's the weight of the Hat has been exceptional, you know, taking it to Alaska. have all sorts of temperature and just like experience there and was just rock rocks, all its so yeah, so I mean not that's Another trip that I guess comes
Tayson: to mind for me. Speaking more along the fabric end of it still is again in this I have touched on this I think on the dragonwall because it was kind of the same torture test is when we did Cain and mountain and I jumped into the river I guess I call it a river but it was really more like a Slot Canyon Pool. But I jumped in that with the Sawtooth pants on and then we started climbing up this. This big
Tayson: Switch back. Nightmare and a top. I was drying. I mean that was I bet those pants were 95% dry and every all over, right. There's a few areas that might get not dry, quite as quickly some seams or down by your ankles or something a little bit maybe but they were 95% dry and one hour. And that was really, really cool to see too, you know, and I don't know how much of that is just directly attributed to the fact that
Tayson: there's no spandex in them. Or how much that is directly attributed to polyester and polyesters ability to dry. And then definitely though it's, you know, we're in the desert and it's warm. And so that that use case scenario like you're probably not gonna be able to duplicate that result in every environment by any means. But just a really really cool use case but then it gets hot and you know just using those sides of vents. It's just been a huge, huge
Tayson: bonus in, you know, a trip like that. Whereas we also, you know, I also took them on the Wind River strip and it snowed on us, you know, that was another trip where it was snowing. And then the next day heats up and gets more you get in the Sun and during the daytime you're down to just your base layers. And and so, yeah, just a really broad temperature range that the feature set allows, as well. As the fabric, I feel
Tayson: like allows so, yeah, those are some of the case, case numbers I wanted to talk about and Guess for those of you that haven't seen the pan, you really ought to go watch, like, the demo video, I guess is what I'll call it, but like the kickstarter video where it really tackles all the features. Some of my favorite features I'll call out. I just talked about the invisible sides of that's definitely like, probably one of the more unique features about the
Tayson: pant. I'm not sure I've seen that on another pan, even even now, even though I've been designing it for for x amount of time. But with tightener, that's the one I use all like every day because when I stand up I'll tighten the pants. Oh, the waist the
Tayson: waist tightener. That's one that we got feedback on from original samples. We changed for production and it works really well whichever stoked about as far as like it not slipping but not being too thick, to notice still like to you know, you could definitely get sick or thick webbing and it could be Noble if you're going to put a belt over the top of it or something like that but really like the thickness of this. But that's something I use every
Tayson: day. Sitting down at a chair or what, not? All always loosen it up or lounging around the house and then I'm going to be on my feet for a while. I'll just reach down and give it a little tug and, and It makes the pant fit better. The bigger I think Advantage too. Besides like the urban, you know, like a situation like that. like, The pants cut into your waist or something. If you're sitting on the ground or if you're wherever
Tayson: you're at, Is when you go out backpacking if you're using a backpack, that's got a good waist belt on it, you know. And if you've got any level of load, what I consistently found. Even if I would buy like a nylon belt like those thin, and I don't know. Yeah, I'll get off the trip. And I would have welts and pinch points and all these different things from where that belt was pinching me against my backpack, hip belt and so running
Tayson: the Saatchi pants. You get none of that and that has been. So, in hiking application, it's just way better when you're going to save weight. But, but even more importantly than that is so much more comfortable with the backpack kit though. That's only one. One of my favorite features of the pant. Kind of touched on the lace clip. That's been another one. The leaflet cargo pocket. I threw my wallet in there every day and when we travel, throw my passport in
Tayson: there, some of that, but What? I don't know, man. What are we missing? I feel like we've talked so much about the pan in the past. I'm I don't want to
Brigham: Talk twice about too much stuff. But yeah, I mean, just some of the behind the scenes stuff like For example, that waist the waist adjustment. I mean, that was That was actually one of the first. Kind of one of the first things that I even worked on like tackled. It's kind of funny, like, looking back. Seemingly small things take a long time to develop. Yeah. Is that that really probably like as soon as I got here that was one of the
Brigham: first things. that we like were addressing was the the webbing itself and the tensioner. As we wanted the right balance of attention or that was solid. That would that would hold but that all wasn't so thick that it was uncomfortable. Whether you're sitting out a desk or under like a hip belt, you know, of a backpack, so finding the right tensioner and then finding the right webbing, that was thin enough without being floppy and floppy. But not being too thick that
Brigham: it creates a bulky tight spot around your ways and then creates a hotspot under a pack under a backpack, but that all will hold in the tensioner. So, Where we actually got several. Could probably maybe close to a dozen webbing samples that we tested and tried different tensioners. I mean, so it was like, just that little webbing adjustment area was a, was a project in and of itself and then, even when we thought, we were pretty close, we got, you know,
Brigham: big shipment of samples that we had. A lot of people test. And pretty much almost everything about the pant was good, but like there was room for improvement on the tensioner and the webbing itself. And so we Kind of made that was one of the very last changes. I mean you got here to the timing ship,
Tayson: it was part of it was tweaking and dialing and thinking and dialing. Now one thing,
Brigham: so yeah, small things like that. I mean they just you can't, you can't know if it works without like
Brigham: getting it, sampling, it testing it and trying something else. So
Tayson: yeah, I think that's what's so, what's so hard to talk about almost is the level of detail. I feel like on this pant that that is hard for the end user to just see but for us from like the day-to-day, like there's so much every inch of this pant, it's been scrutinized. How long did it take us to get the top of the zipper to align properly to close, right? Not create too much bunching and feel like from a quality standpoint
Tayson: it was it was Perfect. You know what I mean? Like, yeah,
Tayson: that took us three, four samples. It felt like to just maybe not quite that many. But like we we sat there for hours, you know, man? Okay. If we pull this up a little bit we pull this down a little bit. If we do this we do you know just to get that one area to not have any bunching effect and to also like in the production side of it, Allow a better case scenario for someone to duplicate a solid. Connection
Tayson: and results. And you know, There was like that piece or just dialing in, you know, the weight or the measurements of how wide do we want it. Exactly. At the knee and at the and at the ankle and and how we gonna taper it from the need of the ankle and how we're going to taper from from there? How big is the rise on the pants and you know, and then the gradients trying to get it, right for the largest size
Tayson: is in the smallest size is and you know all of this I promise you like so much of this pant. All of this pant has been put under a microscope you know when you get the pants look at them and look at where we've double stitched them, you know, the whole pant has double stitching all the way through it, which And I just want to point this out too. Is I've got a pair of pants. It's triple stitched right, triple stitched
Tayson: in the one spot and then I turn and I flip over and look at say the gusset, it's single stitched. It's like what's the point of you know, In the gusset like why am I single stitched in the gusset? The failure point of the pan. And I'm triple stitched over the thigh, you know, like just stuff like that. Where so much of what we did is it was was built around the Practical nature of of building in the durability building in
Tayson: the construction, the dribble in the construction side of things, and Yeah, it's just been meticulous. Like this is one, one product that's been so fun to see because I knew I've known for a long time that when these pants got the people, the reviews were gonna be exceptionally high and that's what we've seen so far. You know, via Kickstarter comments, some of the website reviews that started to come in just in and, you know, that because you, when you spend that
Tayson: much time dialing in every single class button, I mean, Our logo and on the button, getting the mold ready to put a logo on the zipper and dialing in just this just those level of things man, it's been a journey. It's been a journey but when you get the pants, you will be able to see the level of detail and thought that I feel like when it to every little piece Um the Hem, you know what I mean? The Hem was
Tayson: something that we dialed in we that we continue to make changes on down to the last minute, too. Um, you know, the position we had it pulling one way and we switched it. Just because it's more out of the way. Like you cannot tell that there's any barrel lock adjuster down there and if you're someone who's never going to use it, you can pull off the removable lace clip. We made it so it was removal instead of permanent. So thank you.
Tayson: You don't care about Bulma. You can you can take that out and it's simple. And yeah, just lots of little dialing and tweaking that I feel like put this pant together and really did make it the sought to pan. You know, the one pant that I wear every day of the year, essentially now.
Brigham: Yeah. Yeah. Probably a good way to kind of cover or think about the design of the pant. Why? It's designed the way it is. Why it certain features are there or not there just the way it's done. I mean, kind of goes back to What we're trying to accomplish with the pant. And The, you know, the, the multi-use of it and that like that, basically kind of means certain things. It's sets, parameters, it kind of sets requirements, so, so for a
Brigham: pant to be just as usual in the mountains on the trail as in the office or at work or social settings like Finding that, that balance of having this or not having that. That's that's really where. Design. A lot of the design time went into like, a lot of stuff we've covered like, so for a pant that has to look decent enough for social settings. That fit might be different than a pant that's 100% diet designed for hiking, right? So it's
Brigham: right like our pant has a little bit more trim fit so that You can do a lot more with the pant. You can go to dinner or you know, it's not a formal pant. I just mean, you know, it has a better look to it than, you know. Go to a more traditional, just straight up hiking pants. So it's got to have a more trim fit. Well then that means in the hiking environment. Well I guess the question is well what
Brigham: does that mean for the outdoor environment? If a pant is too tight hiking its restrictive, it can get hot. So we had to find that balance in fit but then all. So Um, you know, more to the versatility while in extremely hot temperatures. Well, not everybody likes to even wear pants, right?
Brigham: So I mean to address, that is where we have the hip the the hidden zipper hip vents. So we have built-in ventilation with a hidden zipper that you can't even tell a zipper. When you're not, when it's not unzipped, right? So it's built right into the seam using what's called like a hidden or invisible zipper and it just looks clean and doesn't look. Hiking pant, ish or outdoorsy, but it's totally functional. And it's a long vent. It's not just like a
Brigham: six inch little vent so you can about 12 inches, you can write easily, notice the the ventilation difference, the you can feel the air circulation, you can feel the heat leaving your body. So, you know, that's kind of the, why, for that design element. And then You know, kind of with the, the draw cord at the Hem, right? Straight up outdoor oriented pants. Might not worry so much about hiding that or concealing it. For our purposes. We needed to. So that's
Brigham: just more of the design, focus more the time Focus, you know, and like You'll never know, that's there on a daily basis. It's
Tayson: hidden minus flap of material, right? Eliminates it from your, your attention until you absolutely until you need it,
Brigham: right? And and going back to say, call it, a design feature. So almost any design feature that we put into the pant, it had to work well, Couldn't it couldn't just check the box. It had to to work. Well, so like the zipper we messed around with the hip vent zipper the stopping point, as you know, how close does it get to the to the waistband, how low does it go? We're not just throwing things in there. So back to the
Brigham: Hem, the adjustment. Well I think we got the concealment part really well, until we realized that when we do go to hook that hook onto a shoelace, The way it pulled, the pant leg Twisted, the pant leg created discomfort that was noticeable and we didn't want it to be as noticeable. So we changed the location. So that Pulled from a more natural position, things like that. So that goes back to Had this been designed just to be an outdoor plant. That
Brigham: might not have been such a big Focus point. So every little feature we put in here had to work. It had to work for everything. So like the, the the Front pockets where you typically just put your hands or your car keys, right? Well we have a lay flat cargo pocket on one side of the pant. So their seams in there and so we had to make some adjustments to well, where does the one pocket end and the one pocket below
Brigham: it? Where does that start? So
Brigham: there's not a big overlap of what you're putting in your pockets, you know? And
Tayson: and that a lot of that can feed that one of the feedback. Yeah. That was the same as like Devin from back at your exposure said that on him. The the pocket was getting right on almost over his kneecap where it came down to like the sharp point, you know? And so we, we looked at adjusting that, too. I mean, all these little feedbacks and touchpoints. Another one was the, the back, the back pocket.
