EP 46 - Most Backpackers Destroy Their Gear by Not Cleaning It Right

Tayson: So here's the big question, how do we lighten our gear and build our confidence. So we can start living a life full of Outdoor Adventures and memories without having unlimited amounts of time, money and previous experience. That's the big question and we are here to help you find the answers. This is the little Troy podcast power, bi Outdoor Vitals. Hey everybody, thanks for joining us today. Welcome back to the Live Ultralight podcast. We're very excited to have you and today we've

Tayson: got a very good topic at hand. In fact, I believe we're going to title this podcast. Most Backpackers destroy their gear by not cleaning it. It's a topic that we've been getting a ton in the customer support Channel. And it's been highly requested by our support team for us to put out some content related to it. So, in that regard, we'll Dive Right In to why we need

Tayson: to clean our gear and why it's such a problem. Again, we have Brigham here on the podcast to dive deep into the technicalities of this and talk about his own experience with a lot of this. So Brigham. Welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you back. And let's just Dive Right In to the problems that are going to happen for people if they don't clean their gear.

Team: Yep, good to be here. What do we want to tackle first?

Tayson: We talked a little bit on a previous podcast about sleeping bags. We talked about how we were on a phone call with Allied, feather and working through some R&D staff. And they got to kind of talking about How people don't wash their down products. They've got this fear of it and how that actually has a bunch of negative effects. So I guess for starters, let's talk about this. I want to say, they call it micro mold or like very Trace Amounts

Tayson: of mold that can develop in your sleeping bag, right? They talked about how a lot of that is really outside of our control outside of anyone, most people's control when they're producing the bags. Very well can be as simple as Though, there's a few things, but, like, on a brand new product. Even, we're talking about a brand new product here first, and then we'll kind of move into people actually using the products. But on a brand new product, they could package

Tayson: up your sleeping bag on a day when it's 100% humidity. And then the put it in a plastic bag essentially and we ship it over the ocean and then we Warehouse it for a little bit and then we ship it out to you. And during that time it could have Began the process of developing a micro amount of mold and you're not going to smell it, you're not gonna like see it. You're not gonna, you're not gonna have any idea essentially,

Tayson: but when you're talking about an 800 fill power, or an 850 or a 900, fill power down that Trace amount of mold actually starts to have degradation effects on the down. And so to me that was that was like a mind-blowing effect because these like that's just kind of the start. Now think about like people that sweat in their down, people that breathe inside their sleeping bags. People that do all these other things. Well, they're probably starting the process of developing

Tayson: mold in their jacket, in their sleeping bag. Not to mention Tracy amounts of dirt and things that are going to build up and grind just over time. So, I don't know, what did you think about that conversation that we have and what were like did that shock you? Or if you feel like you were, do you wash your down enough as it is?

Team: there, it was a really insightful conversation, and I really enjoyed it and Everything. They said it was. Everything. They kind of talked about with us. as we were discussing it all made sense as as we talked about it as what they would explain and and all made sense and with down Sleeping bags. Especially I think people including myself Have. Tended to avoid cleaning, they're down. And by that, I mean like a full cleaning and not like spot wiping or, you know,

Team: kind of wiping off the exterior. But I mean, getting the whole thing wet, giving it a wash cycle, whatever. Even if it's like, You know, in a machine versus a bathtub, I think most people again myself included like

Tayson: avoid. Well, there's two things, there's two reasons. Why in my opinion, maybe there's more, maybe a lot of third here, but to me, The big first reason, there's just pain associated with it and there's two kinds of pain, I guess. One is like the pain of not knowing if you're doing it right? What if you're damaging your product? If you're actually making it worse, if you're doing the wrong thing, now, if you think you're doing the wrong thing, you're not going

Tayson: to want to act at all. You're just gonna keep rolling forward. And that's that's a, I would say that's a really, really big one. And that's man I'm the I guess really, it's kind of like more like one thing but like so there's there's the aspect of like I don't know what I'm doing and then there's aspect of like, maybe you've been told that you shouldn't wash it. Or the like like you might damage it by just washing it too much

Tayson: or or that side of the equation as well. But I would say, for the most part people just They? Man, I'm getting I'm getting all jumbled here because there's a lot of things we're going to tackle here because we're not just going to talk about down. We're talking about down right now. But just just as if you're listening to this just know. We're also going to be talking about wool backpacks other other apparel pieces. So all of this is going to

Tayson: tie in. But specifically I would say about sleeping bags, most people just don't dare touch them because they're just fearful, they're going to do it wrong. They're going to harm their product that there's these negative aspects and anytime there's there's either unknowns or fear, they're just not going to do it. It's easier to not do anything. But as you were talking, it actually reminded me of a situation where it was very clear. I guess that they're probably had been Micro or

Tayson: Trace Amounts of mold on a product. We actually got a sample. I'm sure you remember this. I start saying this, but we got a sample from our supplier. We're trying to do a refresh, or an update on a product that down sleeping bag or top quilt. And we got it, we pulled out of the packaging and it had been shipped just the FedEx. And somehow it was out on the runway or something. It had gotten wet on the outside of the

Tayson: package and when he pulled it open, you could smell it a little bit too. And we're like, oh man, this is not very lofty. Maybe, our supplier didn't use the correct down for this sample. Maybe they just grab the 500 or 600, fill power down. They didn't use our specified down for some reason. And so we kind of were a little upset about it for a minute and we waited and it was the proper weight roughly. And we let it sit

Tayson: for a day thinking. Yeah, maybe tomorrow it'll be better and tomorrow. It was a little bit better. And our supplier wrote us back and said, no, that's the down that we've, you know, that's your allied, Allied feather, 800 fill power down and We were still like a little bit shocked about, I think, over time though, it lasted up to a decent level, and we didn't think much about it, but I don't know that it ever lofted to a Max Level. And

Tayson: I think that's a great example of, at least for us like a clear sign to me would be if we had taken that back and washed it properly, we probably would have revitalized it, and it would have looked and acted like an 800. Yeah, or back. Yeah.

Tayson: So that's problem. Number one. We're gonna go through kind of a handful problems and then we're gonna talk about our recommendations and how we personally do this. So talk about waterproof membranes, why do people need to wash their waterproof, membranes? I mean, every time they're on the rain, aren't they just washing it? Anyways.

Team: Well, actually, it's basically the same concept as with, with down with the waterproof membrane. You think of how lofty and fine a down cluster is well, a waterproof membrane is equally fine, okay? Maybe? I don't know if it's equal to equal, you know what I mean? But I mean it's It's relatively fine as well. So we're talking about finding things. Like you have to look at a waterproof membrane under a microscope to see kind of the effects that we're going to

Team: discuss, but I guess, you know what happens is? Whether it's sweat dust in the air wind blowing dust. Lane your

Tayson: jacket down in the dirt.

Team: Yeah. And that or you know, just sitting wearing your backpack that you've used dozens if not hundreds of times and sweat in and it's collected dust. And now you're putting that on over your jacket, right? So all we're talking about I think

Tayson: it's a good point actually, because I'm always putting on my ring jacket over the top of another jacket. Almost

Tayson: almost, every time I use a rain jacket, I'm putting it on the top of another jacket that I've been wearing as an outer piece like a lofty jacket. Let's say, and I know my loft, I let my loft jackets often get way too dirty and then I'm putting it right against the rain jacket.

Team: Yeah, so exactly. And what we're leading to is what happens with rain jackets or waterproof membrane jackets or down insulation is All These Little Things compound to start to degrade, whether it's the down or the waterproof membrane. So, in the case of a waterproof membrane, what will happen is Body oils on the inside of the jacket, that's coming from your body. Obviously, they start to collect on the inside and On the outside, you're going to have. Other basically, think of them

Team: as an impurities, because whether it's dust, that's just floating in the air, and then some wind and some rain, it all collects on the shell of the jacket. But then there's a, you know, then there's the, the physical dirt that happens. If you brush up against something or, you know, like you were saying, you put your jacket on over something. Or I put my salty, sweaty dirty backpack on over my range jacket. So all this exposure to basically impurities things that

Team: get it, what will just label is dirty. So body oils salts dust dirt. That all accumulates and it starts working its way, working its way onto the membrane. Now, this membrane is supposed to one block. The water. It's also two supposed to allow Vapor to pass through it. It's done through microscopic pores, think of it as just holes, right? That don't allow that. Don't allow liquid water to pass through, but a vapor a gas. If those get dirty on them, think

Team: of how microscopic that is, that only a gas can pass through this membrane but not water, right?

Tayson: Like water droplet is going to be way too big to pass through. A tiny. Tiny holes,

Team: exactly. So we're talking about You know, a grain of dust is much bigger than these pores that are in a membrane. So millions of grains of dust and salt accumulating on this membrane that membrane loses its Effectiveness in breathing but also, It now has all these bodies on it that hold on to water. So, that's why people experience. What's, you know, commonly referred to as the wedding out of effect, is because instead of this perfectly clean membrane that should repel everything,

Team: it's got. All these impurities that are sticking to it and the more that sticks to it. It makes it a more adhering body for everything else so it just snowballs. So the dirtier, it gets, the more likely things are to stick to it and so body oils. Same thing, it kind of clogs it up. So the more it gets clogged, the more, all these impurities stick to it in the less effective it becomes. So it's going to stop

Tayson: breathing and it's also going to hold on to water. Exactly. It's gonna hold on to water and when something

Team: like totally Saturates and holds onto water Then again, it stops breathing. And

Team: then on the downside, like the down insulation side, it's the same, same thing, body oils salt. That kind of, if you're wearing a jacket and you're sweating in your down jacket and that the salt soaks through a little bit of salt, body oil, and then Dust and grime starts accumulating on that down cluster. and then, specifically, with the down, kind of talking, the mold issue you were talking about, well, what do we know about moisture in terms of Let's talk about

Team: some gross stuff, like bacteria, like moisture creates like a microclimate for bacteria and mold. So moisture is like the You always want to avoid moisture, you know, just like in your house. If if you have a leaky roof, you're going to start having mold issues. It's because of the moisture that really just enables mold and bacteria to grow and all that growth has mass, it has physical weight to it, even if it's microscopic, you're talking about a fine fine down cluster.

Team: So it's starts weighing it down and the down, becomes less effective at lofting, but also just like the waterproof membrane. as soon as things start sticking to it, that aren't its natural States. So it's as soon as anything that's not down is sticking to it. It's going to make it a lot easier for everything else to start sticking to it, more and more and more. And then as soon as we become less lofty and less water resistant,

Tayson: Yeah, I mean, and that's just that. So that's only two piece is really talked about so far which is, you know, down. We've talked about waterproof textiles but this really is going to apply it to everything else. I'm going to try to lump a few more things in here. Membranes, I just talked about membranes. But I I remember this from when the like the one or two times I've ever gone climbing in my life. But anytime I would go climbing my

Tayson: buddy that would take me was adamant that that rope not touched the dirt adamant. Right? Like. And he you know he talks about basically how getting dirt inside that rope is going to break down that rope. It's gonna cut the life down, it's gonna degrade the the tensile strength or whatever you want to call it. This the strength of the rope and all these things start to happen. And so, imagine that like same use case scenario and then apply it to

Tayson: like things like backpacks. Apply things like boots applied to things, like always, I think. So right like our backpack is basically a bunch of tiny ropes all woven together. And you got Dynamo, you got Dynamo ropes out there. It's kind of and that's what a lot of climbers end up using and stuff similar to that or dynamism is actually used a ton in the fishing industry and so you'd want to keep those ropes super clean and stuff because it will start

Tayson: to affect the strength of that rope. Why? Why? Why is that? Just Just the fact that those impurities will will create abrasion against the fine Yarns over time. Or is there something more to it than just that aspect that weakens the fabric?

Team: Well, yeah, it's it's just like the others, you know, the the dirt. Just speeds up the process of more dirt collecting and yeah that dirt and dust salt. It's abrasive think about sandpaper. It's basically the same concept. Sandpaper is just an abrasive and you can completely. disintegrate a surface with sandpaper, write a very strong surface, you can take an epoxy that's strong as steel and you can you can abrade it so much that it starts to lose layers with sandpaper same

Team: concept with with gear specially backpacks because you have so many nooks and crannies and creases and, and Webbing and little cracks and crevices. All these areas where Dust and dirt can collect. When you're hiking down, a dry Trail in a group of three. Each person is kicking up a little bit of dust and so there's just you know you're walking in a dust cloud, it all starts accumulating and and so every little movement between you know webbing and the hardware or

Team: a fold in a in fabric you know as when it gets dirty your basically you're just putting sandpaper in every little crack and crevice in the backpack so the more abrasion that happens. while the pack is dirty, the more, the those Little tiny bits of dirt and sand, they're they're abrading, the the surface and and degrading the coding, and then the Yarns and, and the whole structure. So,

Tayson: I I think I've mentioned this before, but I mean is that why you never put your backpack on the ground? Anytime we stop. Brigham one won't take off his backpack in two and we do stop. He hangs it every time like he will try. He will walk around the whole campsite just looking for one branch to hang up. Backpack on. I mean, is that why you just don't want it that? Yeah, it's

Team: it. It's excessive, I will agree like It, my backpack will last. Just fine for, you know, probably for the rest of my life, you know, if I just acted like a normal person. But yeah, it's just that little bit of always worrying about not worrying, but always keeping in the back of my head to just do everything I can to take care of my gear.

Tayson: So, we've kind of outlined the problems here we've outlined. Why it's a big deal to take care of your gear. We've talked about how over time one you can, you can speed up the process of a product breaking down. And then two you can, you can essentially degrade the performance of that product. Again, going back to Specialty like Hilton, insulation Downs, Start to degradate the effectiveness of it and you're not going to get the same warmth levels in a dirty down

Tayson: top quilt versus a dirty versus a clean down top quilt, right? So that's the problem. I hope I hope all of us want to take better care of your gear. I definitely am thinking about mine and thinking, man. There's probably A couple things that I haven't lost in a while now or I should think more about rinsing off my backpack every time I get home or just little things, right? But let's Dive Right into how do we attack this? We're gonna

Tayson: break this down into a few different sections. We're gonna kind of first, talk about apparel, you know, wool waterproof stuff. We'll talk about Typical like polyesters and nylons kind of the next will transition into more backpacks and boots and then we'll finish off with more down type products. So With that. Let's let's just Dive Right In. So essentially, we've got to wash our gear washing our gear, especially if Done, Right is not going to hurt our products. It's not going to

Tayson: wear it out faster. It's actually going to make it last longer which I think is kind of a myth out there like in my head. Personally, I think about washing my stuff too much and maybe I should be clarify here. Most of the stuff I was special like a down sleeping bag. My thought was if I wash it too much, I'm just wearing it out way faster. And putting way too much stress, on whatever it is, I think that's a myth.

Tayson: You obviously don't want to wash your stuff too much either. Like if you wash it, if you over wash some apparel pieces, you can put extra wear and tear on them. But as long as we're washing these things, right, And if the frequency that will kind of brush on here, in this podcast, this should just extend the usefulness of your product, the longevity of your product, the performance, your product. So, starting off, let's jump right into a Peril, and we're going

Tayson: to do that partially because that's a big question. We're getting a lot is with our war products. Lots of people are saying, how do I wash Dragon Ball? How do I wash your Sawtooth pants? Those are kind of the last couple things that have been going out the door and mask quantities. And so I think it's top of mind for people. So for starters, I guess let's talk about Detergents and then we'll talk about the methods of of washing and then

Tayson: anything special that you do as well. So, For starters with the detergents, I think. I don't know if this is a myth, this we're gonna be talking a little bit out of our realm here, out of our personal opinions and our personal uses, right? There's going to be specific washes that are available for you to purchase for all of these things, right? But we're also going to talk a little bit about what we personally do. So Brigham, if you are in

Tayson: your personal opinion, if you're going to wash, The Satu Pants or wool? How do you approach it?

Team: I approach it almost like I would just about any other average piece of apparel that I have. I personally do not use any specialized wash or detergent. All I do is. use a moderate minus a little bit amount of detergent. So, what I mean is, if if I'm specifically washing like all my stuff, so I married, I have three kids. So we have, like, all kinds of stuff in the load and I frankly don't have the time to just wash my

Team: technical items, you know what I mean? So there's a lot of other stuff in there too. So, most of the time that means I'll just throw it in with whatever. Is going in? And I try to just use a little bit less detergent than I guess is called for. So if it says like okay it's a medium load fill to line three. all filter like line two because My personal opinion and this is how I do things is, you can get

Team: away with less the detergent than you think. So specific to the dragon wall and the Sawtooth pants. I like to use less detergent than the load size calls for and then I just do like an extra rinse cycle. I think that's kind of a thing is, maybe we can touch on what detergent does or what soap does anything that's used for washing your hands or your clothes. All it does is it comes. It's a mix, it. Blends in with the water,

Team: soaks into everything, and the detergent makes dirt and bacteria stick to it as opposed to The pure water. So it basically or the Garment if, yeah. Yeah. Or the garments. So the, the soap or the detergent, it causes all the foreign bodies. Let's call it the impurities to stick to the soap solution. and then it basically draws that out of the water and then as it rinses The the detergent, with all the impurities gets washed out and then you're left with

Team: the clean garment and the cleaner water. So that's the purpose of detergent is to have the dirt. Let's just call it the dirtiness stick to it instead of the Garment and then you get rid of the detergent with the impurities of the dirt and you're left with the clean garment but Um, my practice is to use a little bit less detergent than it calls for and do an extra rinse cycle just to make sure there's no residual detergent left on the

Team: Garment because all that's going to do is make dirt stick to it after the garments been cleaned

Tayson: many you personally use just any detergent or do you look for more gentle

Team: unscented? You know things like that. I think we use unscented And honestly, we use

Team: pretty pretty average, standard detergent. I do think it's good idea to try and find something that is maybe classified as gentle or mild

Tayson: one that we talked about was I think it's called death for babies. It's supposed to be super mild unscented. Yeah. Just a very Basic but but gentle wash. My practice is, are actually very similar to yours. I I will say this, I need to throw this out there because I feel like this is a one if you're going to buy a new washing machine. Buy something without an agitator and preferably a front loader, because if you get a front loader then

Tayson: you can use. You can wash down in it. If you do a top loader, you're down bag or your jacket will just sit on top of the water, but more. So if you have an agitator in there, there's Very high possibility that you're going to bind up some of these delicate you know 20 Daniel Fabrics or wool or whatever and put a ton of torque contention on them. I've already seen one at least come back to us. That was very clear

Tayson: both from the scent. Like you grab the the wool piece is Dragon Ball piece, you can smell detergent on it from you know foot or two foot away from your your nose and then Two had these very clear rub marks on it where you could tell this person had washed it in a washer with an agitator and somehow, whatever the load was that that will hoodie hit wrap up around that agitator. And then just gotten, You know, just a ton of

Tayson: abrasion from that agitator shifting, and shifting, and shifting. So get a front loading washer. If you can, that's going to save you a lot. And also make a lot of this washing a lot easier. So you don't have to look at any type of hand washing. The other thing is Super, super careful with velcro. If you're watching these high-end technical products, especially our dragon wall. It says, clearly on the box don't wash with velcro and it is serious, like, we're not

Tayson: joking around when we say that. It can absolutely wreck pieces. Um, so if you're watching a sleeping bag, sometimes they'll have like a little velcro flap on that just make sure it's closed. Make sure it's firmly attached. It's not just free-floating with that. Velcro velcro is basically a bunch of hook and loop systems, right? And so, those hooks will just grab on to things, whatever it can. That's small enough, it's gonna grab onto even like, if you were watching a pair

Tayson: of wool socks with something with velcro in it, there's a good chance that they're gonna find each other during that wash cycle and begin to damage that delicate wool. So, two quick things. But yeah, I'm gonna use a lesser amount of detergent. I'm going to put it through the wash on a very delicate cycle. I do not use heated water, I'm usually putting cold water in the system. You know, if you putting in hot water, there's a chance. It's going to

Tayson: damage or accelerate, the damage to the fibers in anything, whether it's wool or synthetic or whatever. It's gonna be, I just always use tap cold water and then yeah, that extra rinse. I don't say, I'm always with that, but I really should be. I think putting it through an extra in cycle is absolutely worth it. You are going to put less detergent on it by using less than recommended. Which is going to be a helpful start but that extra rinse will

Tayson: help. Because when you're talking about really fine level fibers, any extra detergent can actually when it's dry can actually help attract. Um or it could keep something from wafting up, fully just that Trace amount of detergent on there. So do an extra rinse cycle. That's always wise. And then the last thing I will say for me in my cycle of washing wool or Satu Pants or something, it's just make sure you always hang dry. It don't run it through a drying

Tayson: machine even if you put it on like, low heat, man. I don't know if you've ever done this, but like if you ever tried like, like, open up your dryer, even when it's on low heat, or like mild or whatever it is. You put your hand in there or you grab a garment out of there. There's still piping hot. Like when it's on hot it must be insanely hot. There's still really hot. Plus you're just spinning and spinning and tumbling and

Tayson: tumbling these pieces, just put an extra wear on stuff. So I'm just just learn getting a habit of hang drying. Find a place in your house where it's very easy to hang dry. That's going to increase the longevity of your products a lot. It's going to keep anything from shrinking or just getting extra wear and tear and, and strain on any delicate fibers that you might have.

Team: Yeah, I'd even throw in. I'll throw this one out there too. For Kind of the outdoor application. You know, people that are on the trail for days, you know, many days without stopping into civilization or whatever. Well, the beauty of, you know, Merino Fabrics stuff, that's, you know, got a Merino blend in it, is it is antimicrobial and it takes a long time to start to collect bacteria and odor. You know, if you're like day eight on a trail, you can

Team: kind of apply some of these same Concepts. Whereas like okay so what if you can find a stream you know a flowing stream that looks like to be Silt free and not have a bunch of debris floating by. You can accomplish a lot just by dunking your Your Dragon Ball or whatever will piece in that you know and and gently kind of massaging it not like cranking on her twisting but just kind of like let the flow of the Water Rinse.

Team: A lot of that dirt and grime and salt away. And what you'll find is. That garment will probably not have any order, any order odor to it anymore. I mean, that'll work with synthetics too. Like, that's, it's actually a great tip. Like, if, if your stuff is starting to smell, don't think that, you're completely hosed because you don't have a washing machine. You can unlock can be accomplished by just Dunking it in a creek letting the water flow through it, you

Team: know, gently agitated or massage it. And then And then hang it to dry and the same can be said at home, you know, if you're just sitting in an office all day, you're not sweating. You're not working, you're not getting dirty. You don't need to wash wool products frequently. If anything like after three times, you could probably do the same thing with a, like a bowl or a big pot of clean water, just water. Take your top off, put it in

Team: the water, massage it agitated a little bit and and you'll find that it's going to be fresh for probably. A few more uses before you actually need to even introduce a detergent. That's like kind of the beauty of Merino products. So okay, so

Tayson: let's just ask and since we're kind of beginning on this topic of the Sati pants in the wool, how frequently do you wash either of them?

Team: I don't wash pants that frequently honestly. and, Same thing goes for the wool. All where, like, our Dragon Ball several times before I wash it, and it sounds odd. But I mean, just do. The do the smell test? If you can start to smell odor, then then wash it. If you don't smell any odor and it's not visibly their soiled and dirty like just keep wearing it like nobody's gonna smell it. I promise. And you're again, this just comes to just

Team: prolonging the life of all your gear and your clothing, you know what I mean? Like just get the most out of it, the better care you take of things, the longer it's going to last you and the better. It's going to perform too. Yeah. I mean with

Tayson: the Satu Pants for instance, I've pretty much exclusively been wearing Sawtooth pants for. I don't know. Well, past a year, it's been nice since we've had some additional colors. I can change up but I typically have one color of each of the Sawtooth pants. I've got the brown, the green, and then the gray, and I'll cycle through them in any given week. And my goal is to wash them about once a week. But Typically, I would say I wear them usually

Tayson: about three days each before I washed them. So, get three days of use rotating. Now, there's, there's also something to be said about rotating, so if I was to wear the pants, I wear with my gray ones, one day, if I wear them like back to back days, they're going to get, they're going to need to get washed a lot quicker because you're going to help odor a lot faster by rotating them and letting them breathe for a day in between

Tayson: or two days in between. Yeah, actually extend that that a lot. And so that's that's typically what I'm doing. I'm trying to rotate through my pants and then you know maybe once a week That's kind of that's typically what happens is is once a week. My all of my pants will get washed. So I usually get about typically two to three days but but three plus is not uncommon for me at all with the pants with the wool. This is very

Tayson: dependent. I don't wash my wool. Like you said, unless I can see it sturdy or it starts to smell, that's typically more of it. And sometimes like if it gets a little bit of dirty, but it just recently, I washed sometimes I'll just kind of spot rinse it or something like that and that works as well. Then I get More days out of it, and don't run it through the wash and just keep it fresh longer and just less wear and

Tayson: tear on that from from washing. So, All right, let's transition just a little bit to just waterproof waterproof type materials. And just just also note here, I guess this is a good Bridge transition. That just because we are saying use the, we typically use just a mild detergent and less of it. A big part of that is just the percentage of active ingredient. Now, I tried to look this up on a few things just before we're getting ready for this podcast,

Tayson: because that's something that the Allied feather talked about is, you know, what percentage of active ingredients are you using in your detergent and anymore? I guess Georgian companies don't have to list that, and so it's very hard to know. And so, if you want to be like 100% safe and 100% certain on this stuff, you definitely can buy Nick Wax products. Either be the wool wash or whether it be like, well, we're just talked about, which is like the things, the

Tayson: TX, the tech wash essentially that. Yeah, you know, that's going to be like, if you, if you're someone who wants to take phenomenal, carry your stuff and be certain job, damaging it in any way, shape or form. Then then go grab the tech for the wool wash and those will be on our website as well. But, you know, on our experience we don't always use them. I've used them for sure, I've used them for sure but over time, especially in any

Tayson: pieces of our stuff that I'm washing frequently, I'm not going to use it. We'll talk about cases, as we go on. So, for me though, if I was to wash a waterproof breathable membrane, a rain jacket, I absolutely would because I'm not going to wash that nearly as much, and it's a very technical piece and so it starts to Warrant like if I'm only gonna wash this thing, I don't know. Let's just say a couple times a year. I'm going to

Tayson: use the nicer stuff and and a good waterproof breathable jacket. It's gonna be expensive, you know they're gonna be there's a good one is expensive. And so those those few things weren't me using the more expensive washes with it. And anyway, so with rain jackets, I mean I guess I'll go first. Since I kind of already did, I'm typically going to wash it. Almost the exact same way that we just outlined. Except for, I'm going to treat it out. Make sure

Tayson: you use a tech wash with this particular piece. I will say two, I'm going to try to rinse it off if I ever see if I can visibly see dirt on it. I'm absolutely gonna rinse it off as quick as I can because that's going to just dry turn into fine, powdery dirt. That's immediately gonna go right on that membrane. So I'm just gonna try to rinse mine off, if I sweat, and it's super super heavy. I'm definitely gonna try to

Tayson: rinse it off. So I rinsed my my waterproof jackets and pants and stuff a lot more than I wash them. And then I would say depending on how much more here in the desert. So we just don't have to put it on that often some typical gonna watch that stuff honest. If I'm being totally honest like once a year but that's just because I don't use it a ton. Yeah, yeah

Team: I think the rinsing is And that'll cover. That that'll accomplish a lot for people's rain gear, just rinsing. And I think what a lot of people oftentimes confuse Their? What they'll confuse their dwr wearing out. They'll think they're dwr finish is wearing out when really it's just actually probably dirt and dust. That's actually on the exterior of that shell and that's what's soaking up the water and I think a lot of times you can you can find that just by rinsing

Team: it thoroughly on the outside. You'll find you've got your dwr backs, you know so to speak. Because people think they lost it now that doesn't mean dwr doesn't wear off. In fact the dirt and dust speeds up the degradation of the dwr but actually the dwr will last A lot longer than people think if people will just keep it clean. The nice part about like rain jackets is a lot of times, you can kind of use like a hoe. I mean

Team: literally put it on the grass if it's you know, clean grass and spray it down. That'll get a lot of the dirt and dust off and do the same thing on the inside, that will get the salt from your sweat off of the inside. It'll free up the the membrane and it'll perform better. And so, rinse or rinsing and or you know, spot cleaning like, with a sponge, a gentle sponge or a microfiber rag. Just get it wet and gently rub

Team: a dirty spot. And once that dries, you'll find that it's shedding water again. I'm because there's no dirt and grime to collect the water. Yeah, yeah.

Team: Cleaning it. I rarely do, but kind of like you said, if I am going to do it, if I'm going to actually wash, then I'll do it, right? I'll try to use a tech wash something that is, it's basically designed, specifically, for A rain jacket and the variables that have to be considered are there's membranes in there. There's dwr's on there and there's seam taping. All that's taken into consideration. When you talk about a tech wash something that's specifically designed for

Team: cleaning waterproof stuff because they're taking into account all those variables, like the seams, the seam seal, and they have to formulate it. So it doesn't become unbonded. So the seams don't become Not waterproof anymore. Whereas, if you just use, you know, whatever tide like Johnson and Johnson are Procter. & Gamble is not formulating their their detergent to take seam ceiling into consideration. You know what I mean?

Tayson: Yeah, totally, you touch my really good point that we'll talk about two in the Downs, the down products section as podcast, but just the fact that most people think this is something Allied brought up that most people think that they need to re-waterproof their stuff way more than they do. And I absolutely fell for this. What I was typically doing historically. So early on, I would say I did it for a long time. Is I would I would wash my down.

Tayson: And then I would either rewire like add a little bit of, like, the waterproofing, like the. So, let's say I'm talking about down for some second. I would typically like wash my down in a bathtub. Let's say and then immediately. I would put the downproof which is the dwr waterproofing. In there. I'd let it rinse out and then I'd add that in almost immediately. After I basically, it was a one-to-one ratio essentially for me every time I washed the product is

Tayson: about the same amount of time that I'd end up, rewater proofing, it. And from speaking with Allied and also like on this topic of a waterproof jacket, or something, Essentially that dwr is going to last a lot longer than you think. Typically, when it starts to feel like it's failing, it's not that dwr is failing. It's more so that the Kept it clean, right? So that's just something to really know and again, like going into the down products. I think that's

Tayson: way more common because I mean how much abrasion really is the down inside your sleeping bag, taking Fairy little you can press it, you don't compress it, you know compress it you don't compress it but still like it's not that much abrasion or anything that could potentially start to affect that dwr more likely you're going to need to wash it a lot more. So let's say I'm not have a hard number but like personally if I'm just throwing numbers out there,

Tayson: I would say, you know, washing your down product. I don't know, four plus times five plus times to every one time you re-waterproof it, which in a down sleeping bag is a lot. Like, yeah, that's a lot of, you know, almost year, you know, years of between waterproofing. It but your consistently washing it, so I just wanted to touch on that because I think that's spot on butt. I think I agree with everything with the waterproof shells. I don't know if

Tayson: there's anything else we need to say there before. We kind of keep this conversation moving to backpacks and Boots

Team: I think we're good covered it pretty well. Okay, so let's dive into kind of section two here, we've clumped a

Tayson: few more things and I'm sure there's gonna be things that we don't. I don't remember to touch on about cleaning, but backpacks and boots to us as we were kind of prepping for this tongue about it. The big thing, there is more of the consistent rinsing, it off, consistently taking a hose to it or I get, I guess you mentioned, taking a sponge. And Watt like with your boots or probably backpack too like a little brush. You know per se with

Tayson: with the water and then if you got a sponge though you could add like a mile level of detergent and and kind of scrub down just a little bit too but For me that's typically what I'm gonna do is is wash it off or soak it with a little bit of detergent if needed like a backpack and a tub. If you put just a little bit of detergent, kind of agitated a little bit soaked, a little bit agitated, a little bit

Tayson: and and that's that's about all I've ever done for a backpack. Um when it came to boots, though, I I think we might have slightly different opinions from from the from the start here neither of us put our boots in the washing machine, right?

Tayson: You did mention, you put Trail runners in the washing machine and you had them shrink on you.

Team: Yeah, I yeah, the last Now I'm pretty reluctant to put like shoes or Trail runners in the washing machine. Even though I was just telling you, my wife does all the time and she runs multiple times a week. She washes her shoes. So much in the washing machine. It's crazy. And they're finally, like, they still fit her but the one time I threw some altars in there. They were like at least a half size smaller. Yeah. When I when I got

Team: done so I know people do it successfully and frequently I just tried. I I avoid it. Yeah.

Tayson: I'm saying you I've had a pair of Trail Runners drink on me from the wash and so I don't really do that anymore or if I do I'd use kind of the same thing as we've outlined but when it came to boots you said that you watched the outside of your boots you never washed the inside of your boots

Team: is that right? If I'm talking about like leather boots yeah I didn't really clarify like if I'm talking like Foods that are majority made out of leather. I don't like to just soak a dunk them in water. but I will, I will still get them wet, I'll, you know, you but running water over the outside, I just like to Well, I was just saying, all kind of hold it upside down. So the water runs off as I'm Scrubbing, it or cleaning

Team: it. Okay, like synthetics like synthetic stuff. Let's specify Any Trail Runner. That's mostly like nylon mesh and it's got some TPU on it. Some, you know, Rubber and nylon and cloth. I wouldn't hesitate at all to completely submerge. I mean, we do that when we cross rivers and creeks and stuff.

Tayson: So yeah, that's gonna be what I was gonna say is, I think, an area where I could personally improve a lot is washing my specialty membrane. Boots or shoes more often. We talk about the level of impurities my feet sweat a lot. My feet are sweating right now. Like I I for years I couldn't understand why my feet were always cold. And I think the answer is for some reason, my feet will get even slightly warm and they'll start to sweat.

Tayson: And then their shoes get damp or whatever. My socks get slightly damp and my feet, get cold. And so I know for a fact that I'm putting a lot of impurities into my shoes and into my boots. And so, yeah, I would basically follow the same stipulation of rinsing them. And then if it's not time to rinse, if it's time to actually wash them, I would recommend probably a level of using Tech wash because you do have a membrane in these

Tayson: boots. I'm referring to right now. You're gonna have a membrane in there and it's going to be helpful to wash it with something like a tech watch, Nick Wax, Tech wash. Which is nice because if you get something like a tech wash, you can use it for more than just like one piece of gear. So yeah, that's typically what I'm doing for boots and kind of the same thing with backpacks. You could still use that Tech wash if you need to

Tayson: But just lots of rinsing and a little bit of actually washing and soaking. So, those two I feel like are pretty easy. Nothing too sexy about those. And then, let's let's dive into our third category, unless you've got something else that I missed here. We go. Let's number three. Number three would be diving straight into the down. Oh yeah

Brigham: that's right. And I

Tayson: feel like in our categorization here we did not cover like synthetics like let's say loft Tech but I would say with Loft Tech Specially because most of our loft is lost like hybrid like in sleeping bags and Hot Wheels

Tayson: and stuff. Treat it like down I would say, yeah.

Tayson: If it's pure Loft Tech. Then yeah, you can treat it more like wool. I would say like that categorization, but I will say like in our Loft Tech jackets and things like that. I am consistently rinsing those as well. The main thing I will say to avoid with that is Um, because Los Tech is not quite as stable as down. Hence, the reason when we try to, when we put started putting it in sleeping bags, we started blending and doing some

Tayson: things there to stabilize a little bit more. So, when it comes to the jackets side of things, I just recommend like when it is wet, don't like crunch it up and like spin it around and because what happens is once it gets wet, it's gonna be easier to Clump together. And so a ton of agitation when it's soaking wet such as throwing it in a washer things like that. It's gonna, it's Gonna find. But if you're doing an excessive amount of

Tayson: it, it could start to Clump just a little bit and then you kind of have to work it with your fingers to to separate it out as good as new. So it's not a it's not like it's a big, a big thing to worry about or big fear, but typically when it comes to my loft tech jacket, I do a lot of rinsing, you know, it's just way easier to do a lot of rinsing and I do occasional washing and want

Tayson: to do the washing either. My levels of detergent or a little bit of tech wash, its kind of sixes, I guess for me. But yeah, I would, I would say you know, all the concepts we've

Team: covered so far still apply to it. You know, I mean like take everything we've been saying and apply it across the board. You know, like mold can still grow on Loft Tech, you know, dirt at all. It's all still sticks and it does the same thing, it has the same effects as as anything else that we're talking about. So again, you know, apply the same concepts of cleaning it to keeping it clean, and you'll get the most out of it. I

Team: think it's funny because like Sometimes. If you like in my field or your field, your hyper aware of everything and like me, you know, in the backpack, on the ground thing, like I come excessively careful about it and just to give some people some peace of mind. I kind of consider this like the carelessness test. So, like tasting was saying, like, it'll be fine. We have people in the office, let's just say that would All into the category of the carelessness

Team: test. and the, you know, They may or may not have thrown their Loft tech jacket Inn on hot with you know, everything else and some shoes and a backpack all at the same time and and their jackets are working. Just fine. Yeah that's

Team: like the one when I hear that I'm like I'm just gonna plug my ears. I don't want to hear this. But

Team: just so you know, they're still fine and they passed carelessness tests. So

Tayson: yeah. Yeah. Now, it's a good point. All right, so, jumping back into just down products. We've covered a lot, we've talked about micro mold. We've talked about, you know, dirt and grime and salt and all the things degrading the down. You can absolutely see bigger swings in degradation on a down product because it's such fine insulation. It's it's so fine and it's I don't know. It's just it's something you can't even reproduce in any other way shape or form at this

Tayson: point in time because it is so special and unique. And so down does take a little bit of special unique care, I would say So diving straight into the down. We've already talked on this. You need to wash it more than you need to re-waterproof it. Especially with the kind of waterproofing that comes on our down products. This hyperdry stuff is very durable. It's very high performing its wax base which is which helps it to be more durable. And so you

Tayson: really don't need to get crazy adamant about rewater proofing it, but you do need to keep it clean and wash it. So when we are washing our down products, I'll go through, I guess my procedure. I guess let's just first talk about detergents. This is one that me and Brigham both agree that this, that when it comes to Washington down, use down wash. Don't use a mild amount of a mild detergent. Don't use Tech, wash, use a down specific, wash. Both

Tayson: of us agree on that and that's that's definitely a recommendation. The Good the good news about that is it's not that expensive to get down wash and you don't have to use that much of it or that often. So most most of you out there are going to wash your sleeping bag, one time a year or something like that. Yes, if you're out on the Appalachian Trail and you know, pounding miles and stuff like that, that's going to change things but

Tayson: most of us aren't spending. Days out of our, in our sleeping bag of year and so on so forth. So Washing it and using an investing a little bit in that detergent that down wash is is worthwhile from there. I'm going to wash it pretty much the exact same as I've done everything else. Yes, I have a hand washed. A lot of sleeping bags and If you've never hand washed a sleeping bag, I'm gonna recommend. You do that first because You've

Tayson: got to see, you just gotta see with your own eyes, how difficult it is to get down, wet, and soaking wet and start to deteriorate its Loft. If you just go to, like, you take one of our bags. You fill up a bathtub full of water. Just try to start pushing that down underneath the water surface and, you know, so many of us so many people out there have this fears of down just failing with with moisture and do that and

Tayson: that will do a Wonder for your fears. What do you say? Yeah for sure

Tayson: it's very very difficult to get that down soaking wet but if I was going to wash it I mean either I'm kind of 50/50 I would say and washing it in a bathtub versus a front loading washer with. No agitator again stressing that but that's that's the ideal thing. So front, loading washer. Cold water. Typically I'm using just follow the directions on like the Nick walks Nick Wax bottle but typically that's just front-loading washer. Loaded in maybe an extra inch cycle.

Tayson: And yeah, I mean, there's really not much else I guess to cover with that other than I don't know. Is

Team: there anything different about just don't don't try it on hot on high heat. Yes,

Team: yeah, just like basically everything we've talked about line dry, you know what I mean? Like, that's just across the board, you're gonna get the best out of it by. So let's

Tayson: talk about this because so people put a down bag in a dryer with tennis balls and stuff. Right? And I

Team: think that's, I think that's okay. Like I'm not I wouldn't really frown on the the, the no heat tumble because all you're doing is just kind of like with the three tennis balls or whatever, you're just kind of Bumping it nudging, it gently to relapse and it's just really the air movement. that's going to start that drying process, but I mean if you if you really want to be safe then, Then line dry. I think that's just cross the board. The

Team: safest the safest bet but but the the know he tumble dry with tennis balls, there's affective.

Tayson: All right. So really, really quick. I have wine dried some sleeping bags and I've also dried them and dryers Sometimes, when you line dry, you just gotta be very careful. Be good, air flow in it, in there, make sure it's an area with good because there's a lot of material and a lot of down that's got to get dried out. And so, sometimes that ends up being like, if you don't have a good area for that, or maybe like if you

Tayson: can put it out in the sun, it's gonna dry super fast. If you put in a back room in your house with no sunlight, maybe it's colder, and there's no air flow, I think, It could honestly take days to dry out. Yeah. So point, if

Tayson: you don't have a good place to do that, you know, put it in your dryer on no heat, let it tumble for a while, then hang it up for a while. And, and kind of rinse and just do that on repeat until it's completely dry and completely lofted. Using some tennis balls, is great way to break up those clusters and, and get it back to full, you know, vitalization? Yeah, and that goes with, with jackets and as well it's the same

Tayson: exact thing. Another thing you do with the down, just kind of a little tip is doesn't necessarily have to be one way or the other? Like even if you were to throw I'll see him back so you put it on low heat with some tennis balls for just a few minutes to just Start the

Team: process. I think people would be amazed at the properties of down, it just needs a tiny, tiny boost. And once you get that little bit of boost and what I mean is just that little bit of room that little bit of airflow or it just needs to start drying a little bit and then it exponentially speeds up the process. So like if you put it in for just like a few minutes, five minutes. I don't know. I can that's a good

Team: rule of thumb. Like just put it in five minutes with some tennis balls on low heat, it just gives it that start. And then turn the heat off and then let it run or from there, you know, go hang it out, where there's some sunshine and some airflow. And I think people will be surprised at how quickly it does dry out.

Tayson: Yeah, no, that's a great tip because it's actually, when I had issues this was years ago. I was washing a very low is like our first down product ever. You know, that was like a 500, 50, Phil power or something around there, like is our old old Atlas bag and that stuff was completely collapse, had no dwr on it from the factory. And I did not start the process and that bag took a while, like I was like, I hung up

Tayson: for like a day, went back and got him. Like this thing is still damp and that's when I threw in a dryer. Whereas, if I had started it with five minutes, you know, in the dryer on a low heat setting where it's not gonna get overly hot, it's not gonna Know, be too much on it. It would have started the process and tried a lot quicker. So, Okay, same principles apply to jackets and I think that covers it. I think we've

Tayson: been on here coming up on an hour. So let's go ahead and start wrapping this up but the end the end that if you walk away from any of this, just make sure you wash your gear because if you don't wash your gear you're gonna one not get the full performance out of it and two. You're gonna allow it to break down and start degrading a lot faster. You don't want that. You want your expensive, nice gear to work as long

Tayson: as it can and at Peak Performance. So make sure that you wash it, that you wash it properly. You wash it, you know, adequate increments of time. All of that. And yes, there's going to be. I can't like we don't put out like a specific, like all right after, it's been nice in the bag. Do this or this right after this, many days and we'll do this because there is going to be an element of smell test or visual test. Everybody's

Tayson: got different level of dirtiness than the other. Yep. Exactly. You know, Brigham, I can honestly tell you he's going to sleep at least double. amount of, Nights at sleeping bag before it needs to wash it compared to Derek in our office because Derek loves to throw his bag right out there on the dirt. You know, and look at the stars and so there's just there's all sorts of variables get to know your stuff, watch it, watch it like once you

Tayson: go clean your products, see what the level of loft is or see what the performance is and just take note of it. So that, as you use the product, and you see that degradation, you know, hey, it's probably time for me to wash this or hey this trip. I was extremely dirty and grimy. I probably should just wash it after this one because of this, but as you get to know that you're going to start to eliminate those fears, and as

Tayson: we always say in here, it's fears that keep you from going out and having a great time on the trail and, and just keep you from doing stuff. So eliminate those fears, take care of your gear, they'll take care of you and Yeah, I get the most out of your products. Okay, thanks for joining us today on the liberal July podcast. We really appreciate it. We also would really appreciate it if you rank and review this and make sure that you

Tayson: are subscribed, share this with anyone, you know that needs to take better care of their gear. I know, I know each and every one of, you know, someone in your life. Actually, if you're around, backpacking and camping that just doesn't take care of their gear. So give them a little friendly nudge, send this podcast to them, and let them write the wrong and take care of their gear. Again, thanks for joining us, and we'll see you on the next one. Hey,

Tayson: everybody, this is Tayson again. And really quick. I wanted to invite you to join. Probably the best thing that we've ever put out which is the Live Ultralight membership, buying and affording gear is arguably. The biggest reason that people don't get out and truly enjoy nature. You want to go but you don't trust your gear. It can't handle the expected, weather, or temperature ranges, or you simply don't have the right gear in the first place at all. That's exactly why we

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