Tayson: Here's the big question, how do we lighten our gear and build our confidence. So we can start living a life full of Outdoor Adventures and memories without having unlimited amounts of time, money and previous experience. That's the big question and we are here to help you find the answers. This is the Live Ultralight podcast power, bi Outdoor Vitals.
Tayson: Hey, what's up? We'll be tribe. Welcome back to the Live Ultralight podcast. Today, we're doing something different again. We're shaking it up and we're bringing back on an interviewee. We've got Jeff Pelletier. Hopefully, I said that right, Jeff, you can correct me. Jeff is an extremely Avid, fastpackher. He has a ton of accolades. He has a YouTube channel, a thriving YouTube channel, to say the least, but we were very interested in getting to know Jeff just because of the things that
Tayson: he does, they're a little bit different than our norm. And we just love to look at different options and and ways to enjoy the outdoors and for you it seems like fastpacking is one of the core ways that you love to enjoy the outdoors. So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself. Jeff, what you do and maybe just how you got into fastpacking? Yeah. Well, thanks for having me, guys. I,
Jeff: my name is Jeff Pelletier or Peltier. Either way, I'm Trail Runner, Ultra distance. Trail Runner, I guess you can. And filmmaker based here in Vancouver Canada, I was born and raised here. I've traveled a lot and tracked and hiked and ran over the world, but I definitely called Vancouver my home, and I'm pretty. It's a pretty special place to be. We kind of have everything we have, you know, everything. But but altitude, I guess that we have a lot of big
Jeff: mountains. A lot of good bushwhacking opportunities really cool terrain here. I've been trail running for about a decade. I started running kind of in my late 20s and quickly found trail running and kind of kept going longer and found ultra distance trail running, which is pretty much anything longer than a marathon. So typically about 50 kilometers up to usually around 100 miles is where most people kind of stop, that's sort of the 50 kilometers, 50 miles, 100 kilometres and 100 miles
Jeff: are kind of standard Race distance is for a trail Runner. So, yeah, I kind of just build up distances like that over the years and a few years ago, kind of Sided to see if I could cross that over with some of the backpacking. you know, Backcountry camping that I've been doing and Sort of into this hybrid thing that I guess you could call fast packing. And that term has been used to describe a few different kind of styles of backpacking.
Jeff: But yeah, I sort of use the term fastpacking to describe anything where you're you're moving, fast and light in more of a trail running style, but with overnight gear, and that's kind of the the direction I'm heading in more and more. Now I still do some racing. I've done a couple of big 200 plus mile races in the Alps which are multi-day races but they're obviously fully supported. So I'm not carrying any any sleeping gear. But as I head into my
Jeff: 40s and I'm getting a little bit slower I'm finding that going further and further afield and deeper into the back, country is kind of where my where my goals are taking me.
Tayson: Yeah, there's there's a lot to unpack here. I want to unpack the fast packing aspect, but you mentioned a lot of these, you know, fast packing trips are about 100 miles, so it's kind of where they cap out. Is that what? Did I understand that, right?
Jeff: So that's more on the trail running, kind of race side. So, most Trail Runners, most Trail Runners tend to be. I don't want to say most a lot of throwers tend to race. So we sort of will train in the mountains, and we usually have a goal race or two, or a few races a year. And again, that could be anywhere from that 50 kilometers to 100 Mile mark. But I have started doing these 200 plus mile races. My longer was
Jeff: about 240 miles in the Swiss Alps and those are fully supported though so those are you know that took me almost five days. You're, you're basically hiking and running throughout the day throughout the night, you're sleeping maybe an hour a day Just kind of napping when you when you when you need to. So that's kind of more the trail running, the ultra running side and so where the Fastback thing for me where that crossover happens, is trying to do what would
Jeff: be more traditional backpacking trips. So two three five day trips. Maybe even longer trying to do those as more of a trail running style, where instead of two or three days, you're doing it as a single night or instead of, you know, three weeks on say the GMT, you're doing it in seven days. And so, for me for me, that's kind of that crossover so far. I've only really worked up to between that three to five day Mark. So I'm doing
Jeff: yeah, probably around. Trips would be sort of the maximum so far, but that style of fast packing that style of moving really quickly. With very, very minimal. Gear, is kind of something that scales much better. I think in the Alps, where you have where you have Huts to use as well. And that's probably something we can talk about as well. Which is the the two different styles of fast packing in Europe and elsewhere compared to say in North America, where you
Jeff: have much less of those established HUD systems to rely on.
Tayson: Yeah, so when you're going this type of distance, I mean what is what is breaking down on you first like, is it just your feet? Your ankles is your knees. Like like take me through that process because you can't run 100 miles and not experience pain, right like that. I'm sure you you and and pain are best friends at times but I'm sure that's all what drives you is. Like it's the reward on the other end of it but was you
Tayson: go and you Set out on these massive Endeavors. You know, what is it that that's breaking down on you and what are you watching out for?
Jeff: Yeah. And we like to say, you know, a lot of us are like to say that we're suffering and beautiful places. They're definitely is a lot of suffering involved. It's kind of more of a discomfort usually a sustained discomfort than it is. Maybe pain. But you know sometimes it's pain as well, obviously. Recognizing good. Important like actual injury. When you're doing these 100 mile distance races, and those are, when people say that they're an ultra Runner or an ultra-distance Trail Runner,
Jeff: they're often talking around that 100 mile distance, you know, usually you're on feet for 24 to maybe 30, 32 hours on average, maybe longer depending on the race. Some of these events have a lot of elevation gain, the 200 mile race I did in the Italian Alps and the one in the Swiss Alps as well, you know, we're talking. 70 to 80 90 feet of cumulative, elevation gain. So, you know, a couple of Everest. So it's a lot of climbing. So
Jeff: it really, I mean, everything hurts after a while your quads are smashed. You're getting tendonitis, you're getting swelling, you know, water retention your feet or blisters and sore, but then there's also the nutritional side of it. That can be a limiting factor for a lot of people. I like to say that all Traditions races are more of an eating contest because it's really about trying to just get calories in and trying to keep calories down and that's really the main difference.
Jeff: I think between trail running versus hiking, you know we're not necessarily going that much faster. Maybe 50% faster but unfortunately just that extra level of exertion and usually doing much longer days and maybe running throughout the night, it can Other problems. It's much less sustainable than hiking would be over an equivalent distance and that's, that's where the competitive aspect comes in.
Tayson: Yeah. How much of your gear are you changing out in between trips? Like, how often are you dialing gear? Or, how much of your gear is just like, nope, this pair of shoes is my pair of shoes and this pair of shorts is my pair of shorts and like you're so you just proven it, right? So how much of that are you looking at changing or altering or is it just set?
Jeff: That's kind of what appeals to me about the fast packing side of things. Now that I'm just I'm again just kind of getting into really. I think I barely, you know, dip my toes in the water. As far as the kind of distances I could be doing and with trail running. I felt like I kind of reached a bit of a plateau or rather at least Trail or trail races. I kind of figured out my nutrition and my feet and And
Jeff: I wouldn't change my gear, you know, I don't get blisters. So I wear one pair of shoes. There's often a lot of mandatory kit when you're racing the mountains, but that kind of stuff, I feel like a pretty much have dialed in and and the rest is more of a physical challenge. Now and as you get, Old kind of start to slow down and you know, you kind of want that next challenge and it doesn't mean doing races longer than 200
Jeff: miles because at some point, it's getting a little bit ridiculous if you're out there for weeks at a time. So that's where fastpacking comes in. And with that, of course, you know, as you guys know, there's no end to the Gear iteration, right? When it comes to Backcountry camping. And, you know, I'm still trying to figure out the best sleep systems, and, you know, obviously there is no perfect Sleep System. There's no perfect gear solution, you know, it depends where you
Jeff: are depends on the season and depends on so many factors and that's what appeals to me so much, is that it's kind of like new territory and I'm constantly having to learn and test out new gear. You know, see what works with doesn't work. So yeah, I mean the short answer is when racing. I the gear is fairly minimal, once you have it dialed in. It's it's kind of set. Whereas with fastpacking now I'm still trying to figure it out, you
Jeff: know, I'm still searching for that first that. Perfect pack for example, because it's so different when you're carrying you know, 10 to 15 pounds a year and you're trying to run with it versus two to five pounds of gear when you're just trail running, for example, for a day.
Tayson: Yeah, I'm super intrigued to hear what it's like to run with the pack. I can honestly say it's not something I've done much of thankfully nothing's chased me, you know, bad enough to make me run now but you kind of mentioned recovery and and eating so and and I'm just curious when you when you're setting out, let's say you're gonna set out to fast packet Trail, what kind of mileage are you looking to accomplish in a day, obviously terrain can vary
Tayson: but or even percentage wise, you know how much faster you're going than a normal person? So someone could log 20 miles on this trail walking or hiking it. How much more are you looking to accomplish? When you're when you're trail running? Are you stopping for meals? Are you know, how does, how does that all bleed in together? Yeah. And you know, I think the short answer
Jeff: is not much more but enough that it adds up over multiple days. So if an Advertiser is going to, do you say 20 miles, I might aim for 30 or 35. And of course, there are people doing 30 miles 35 miles for sure, but, you know, but but each day just doing a few extra miles. Then you might otherwise be doing and just taking a step back. I mean, really what we're talking about here, this mix between trail running backpacking, Ultra
Jeff: lightweight, backpacking. Is really about running the flats or at least a jogging the flats when you can running the downhills and hiking the UPS. So you know we're still hiking the apps like everybody else but we get to go a little bit faster in those downhills and again a little bit more of a jog on the flats so it kind of depends on the terrain you know if you're dealing with a lot of elevation you might not be moving that much
Jeff: faster than the average hiker. But when there's opportunities when you are in those more buffed out Trails we can really move as Trail Runners and that's where we'll really make up time. But even on the clients I think coming from a more competitive trail running background, you know, definitely affords, you a certain level of Fitness, right? And also familiarity with that discomfort, where you are willing to kind of push through a level discomfort that may be Some, you know, kind of
Jeff: weekend Warrior's wouldn't quite be comfortable with. And that kind of just adds up. So again, it's that extra 10 50 miles per day, over three or five to five days. You know, it means you can finish Trail much quicker, which means you're carrying less food less gear, which in turn means, you can go that much faster, right? There's a bit of a positive feedback loop. And that's kind of the foundation of trail running to begin with. I mean, when we're out
Jeff: there doing, you know, we can do a 20 mile, you know. 30k route in the mountains on extremely technical terrain with a lot of climbing. I can we can bang that out in an eight-hour stretch when we're trail running because we have very small packs on just minimal. Safety gear, basically, And then it's throw in. As soon as you're carrying an overnight pack with a tent. I mean right away. Now, you're going in half the speed, you're way less Nimble. And
Jeff: now you're looking at a three-day trip versus a one day kind of You know. Adventure where you're home by dinner, so it's kind of the same principle when you're fastpacking to a degree. Where We can do things that might, you know, maybe would take yeah, you know, 10 to 14 days. If we can do it in three to five days, you know? It's we're just having a there's that that many that fewer Supply points. We can go maybe a little bit
Jeff: further each time so we can stretch out those resupply points. Stretch out the times in between filtering water. You know, it kind of Builds on itself is that positive feedback loop. The flip side is when that breaks down. If you get injured, if you're forced to walk then the opposite happens, right? And that's where, you know, this is true for trail running as well. When Trail Runners get in trouble in the backcountry, it's usually some kind of lower leg injury and
Jeff: then you get that negative feedback loop because now you're going too slow, maybe you're getting cold because you didn't bring enough clothes clothing, you don't have enough food. So You are operating with a much smaller margin of error than you would be if you are hiking or you know, through hiking with a larger pack so you're definitely less of a margin of error. A little bit more kind of on that edge at all times. And it really is about trying to
Jeff: find that edge. Like the minimum amount of gear, the fastest you can go and your body probably is the main thing that's holding you back at that point. And again, especially those lower leg lower. Legs, that can happen.
Tayson: Yeah I really find this fascinating. I mean because you kind of started to touch on why you do this. And for me I'll just kind of share why I'm interested in. This is you know I've got two little kids, I've got a wife and if I'm going out my boy isn't quite old enough to where it's you know easy to take them as specially not on any kind of bigger adventures and I look forward to the time when I can But
Tayson: there's there's trips where, you know, there's 100 mile through hikes that me and Brigham are looking at that. We'd love to go get done. But we've, we've got responsibilities, you know, home and businesses and, and it just makes it tougher. And so this idea of fast packing is really interesting to me because it would open up what I could do and what I could see with the amount of time I get to experience it. Right? So it just kind of affords
Tayson: me, more options to do that. But what I'm interested with you is, you know, what's your why to fast packing is? It just the competitiveness of being like, man, I you know, we banged out this Trail, soding fast or or is there more to it for you on why you would recommend or why, you know, on your YouTube channel? You kind of preach about fastpacking and you show what fastpacking is like for you, like, what is? What is your why? And
Tayson: in doing fastpacking and moving that way and doubling down on that.
Jeff: know it's exactly like you said I mean I can do so much more at this pace and and maybe to a slightly lesser quality you know I'm not spending as much time on a trail and there are Trails where you just you know sometimes you just wish you had that day off to just Sit back and hang out, right? But you can't, because you're on a schedule. But I mean, I could do, you know, I put it this way. We get
Jeff: feedback as Trail Runners. All the time we get negative feedback sometimes from people who say, we're rushing through the trail and I get comments like this on my YouTube videos all the time. But the reality is I'm still spending as much time as the average person on the summit taking photos, I'm shooting videos. I'm you know I'm doing a lot of this stuff. The parts were rushing through tend to be the logging roads, the clear Cuts, you know, we're saving time
Jeff: on the approach, I love Forest, but after four hours is going through a forest sometimes, you know, you're looking forward to getting breaking out to the Alpine, we get through those sections, much faster, the downhill again. We might take more time on the up and then we can sort of bang out the downhill and get back to the car in a fraction of the time of somebody else. But we're still spending the time. Taking in the views, we'll still stopping and
Jeff: soaking things and we're looking at checking out Bear Tracks. You know we're doing all those same things and you know it's kind of like with Ultra Lite gear choices sometimes Saving Room for other things that you want to prioritize. So my case it might mean, you know, if I can save a few grams here, it means I can carry an extra GoPro battery. So it's not that I'm not carrying gear. I'm just choosing to carry different gear and it's kind of
Jeff: the same thing. We get to choose where we spend our time. We still stop and swim in lakes and do all those things to really enjoy that. The experience we just Time on some of the other points, where, you know, going through a clear cut or Logging Road, for example. So, that really is a big part of it. So, I think the amount that a trail Runner, or a fastpackher can do can squeeze into a season, the amount of, you know,
Jeff: big objectives, it totally outweighs any Dropbox. I think from, from this quote, unquote rushing through a trail. Something like the 100 mile Wonderland Trail realm around that Rainier, you know, you can, you can if you want to you can run through the night, you are going to miss some things. But you know you can do the Wonderland Trail in a weekend, you know. We fast pack that over two days, it took about 40 hours sleeping for about four hours on trail.
Jeff: Stop the night, cooked dinner, and slept, and we were doing fairly big days when we were moving, but I wouldn't have had the week to go and backpack that trail over seven to ten days, right? Yeah. So different
Tayson: of doing it or not, doing it at all.
Jeff: Exactly. And then the following weekend, we're doing some other big objective. Right? So we're doing so much in a season because we can move with that pace, the fitness allows you to do that, you know, the pace and we're still again stopping and enjoying the views when we can.
Tayson: So it's a little bit of, it's a little bit of that as well. It's squeezing so much more
Jeff: in but then also again coming from a more competitive background, I still do race, you know. So right now I'm training for a high 100 mile race in July. So, a lot of what I'm doing right now is a bit of a means to an end but I'm training by going out into the mountains and doing these really cool, you know, in this case day long objectives but I might do a couple weeks and things as well, and those are leading
Jeff: up to a races as well. So they're still that there's still that secondary objective, the training sort of or rather. The racing gives me a structure to my season, it gets me kind of a goal at the end of it, but then, I get to squeeze in all these really cold Ventures along the way.
Tayson: Yeah. Now I think that's really fascinating. I think that's gonna be relatable. Honestly, for those people that are listening. It's just that, that concept of You know, time is a super limited resource and getting out and a lot of us just want to see just want to see stuff. And and I think there's going to be times when I would, when I personally might conflict a little bit of like enjoying the journey a little bit, the sort this, you know, instead
Tayson: of just getting to the destination, but I do, I have some of that competitive nature so I can relate to that. But
Jeff: yeah, it's not it's not an either or I mean, there can still be, you know, I might still do the odd hike or you know, go and do a more traditional backpacking trip especially with from what the friend. You know, I did the West Coast Trail here on Vancouver Island a few years back. And I did that at a very much as a traditional hike with the buddy who, you know, he said, let's let's take it easy. Let's go slow, let's
Jeff: spend time on the beach and we did that. So it's not like it's it's all or nothing, but it does mean that there are a lot of through hikes. I think for some people might be a once in a lifetime opportunity. You know they have to take three months off to do something. And if you can do that in a couple of weeks instead, they can do one of those a year instead of once every, you know decade maybe.
Tayson: Yeah. So you're gonna, you're gonna do a Like the at the PCT and like, alright
Jeff: well, so I'm still building up to somebody's my first goal of the game, the GMT. I'm gonna I'm aiming for that over, maybe, seven days, which I think is quite comfortable. I have friends who have done the same over seven or eight days. The John Muir Trail looks incredible. I had I had a permit last year of course that didn't work out. So I'm in the lottery again this year. And then long-term like I would love to do all the big
Jeff: through hikes piece, the PCT at The Great Divide. I mean there's there's so many here and then of course looking over in Europe, it's a whole different thing and that's something we could talk about. Again, it's this like the difference between The. unsupported stuff here, borrowing a term from trail running so doing unsupported Adventures versus doing it in the Alps where you have Huts systems or you know, How to go anywhere where you can use the Huts? I mean that opens
Jeff: up a whole other approach to to fastpacking Yeah, which is why all of you that are listening to jump
Tayson: over and subscribe to just channels so that he can get to full-time filmmaking soon as possible. Right?
Tayson: Yeah, exactly. So I feel like I've been kind of hogging the mic here. Brigham actually is on the podcast. So bringing if you've got questions or things to comment, go ahead and jump on it.
Jeff: I'm good. I'm really just enjoying listening. This is like, we're separated by tables. You know, you're over there in the corner. I'm over here, but I'm just like, it's like I'm listening to a podcast. I don't want to speak up because it's fascinating. I think, you know, one of the things I was thinking about is like comparing this to like my life situation with with young family, three kids, and just reminds me of going to Disneyland and my wife just being
Jeff: non-stop trying to get in every ride for three straight days which to me felt like work. But the idea that you're describing sounds like vacation, you know, where is just like get as many trails as you can cover as many miles as you can. It's just it, I don't know. I thought that was funny. It was something that came to mind.
Jeff: You know the other thing too here is, is that as a trail Runner, I like running, I like the physical sensation of moving swiftly. Through a trail or or over a ridge or down a mountain. I like the old to push hard and climb, you know, that a really hard effort up a mountain. I find that really rewarding so it's not like we're feeling like we're rushing. It's like when we're when we're running and admittedly sometimes again it's more of a
Jeff: jog when we have packs on but that's that that's a good feeling. That's where we're in our element at that moment, right? So it's not in fact, like I don't I love running, I don't like walking. I don't like going for walks around the block, I find it. It just I don't feel like I'm in my body at that moment, unless I'm kind of pushing the effort just a little bit. And that is something to where I think again, this is,
Jeff: I think, I think, for me, this is coming out of it, as a trail Runner. Who wants to to overnight as A two trying to encourage a more traditional Backpacker or hiker. I'm not trying to encourage people to start running to start rushing. It's kind of the opposite. It's more like getting troll Runners to slow down a little bit.
Tayson: I think it's you're probably hitting a state of flow when you're running right like me. I'm a I'm a bigger dude and running I do run and I but I wouldn't say ever loved running but I could get behind the idea of moving through Trails quickly and things but whereas you like running is like A state of flow. Like you're, you're happy, you're you're feeling euphoric, you love it. So that all that does. All make sense to me a lot as
Tayson: well. Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shift gears here for a little bit and I'm gonna start, I would love to start, you know, asking a few questions, more related to gear, but before I get into like the pack and just what's maybe different between ultralight, backpacking and trail run, trail running, fastpacking excuse me is I gotta ask I seen on some of your videos. You guys are running with trekking poles. That's seems difficult. Tell me what that is like running with
Tayson: trekking polls. Yeah. So I I use polls,
Jeff: usually whenever I'm wearing a pack, but not always, not always. So I might my first experience actually, with Running With The Pack was, I did a self-supported stage race which looks like a second. This is about seven years ago, very early in my trailer and career and it was called the Grand Ultra. We had to run from the Grand Canyon to The grand staircase. So from Arizona to Utah, over seven days, and it was self-supported or semi supported meaning, I had
Jeff: to carry all my own gear. All my own food aside from a tent they provided shelters at night and they provided water on course everything else. You're on your own and there were checkpoints at the end of each day. So you'd stop running at some point, they'd stop the clock and the next morning the clock would start again. That's what made it a staged racism to a single stage or just a regular race, and I had to carry a pack and
Jeff: it was about, I think it was around 14 pounds including food for a week and of course by the end of the week, that was a fraction of that like six or seven pounds and that was my first experience with the pack and I didn't use polls that time and because it was a lot of flat running, but every other time of run with the pack since then I've used to pulls and I just find it really helps with the number
Jeff: of reasons for in a number of ways, but I should also mention that when we're trail running were usually using polls. So this isn't just a fastpacking thing, this is actually a trail running thing whenever we're doing really mountainous stuff. So on the Alps a lot of stuff here in BC, anything with a big client. In fact there's a whole genre, there's a whole style of And called Sky Racing or skyrunning rather and they use polls, even, they don't have packs
Jeff: on, but they're using polls. It's basically like having four legs, right? So, you're Distributing that weight a little bit, it helps to open up your chest. It helps to keep your back straight and it really takes a lot of that pressure off your lower back, and the alternate kind of way to climb fast is to put your hands underneath and to sort of simulate using yours like poles. Some races don't allow poles, a lot of races do
Tayson: Whatever sharing that. Yeah, I was gonna say when I typically hand trekking, poles with someone, I say you're gonna hate them for like the first hour so that you use them and then you're going to get in the flow and you're gonna like it when you start running with polls. I mean, What is how what's that like does it take you a minute to kind of figure out how to use them? Or is there technique involved or Yeah, totally.
Jeff: And I always tell people when they're when they're training for their first kind of big mountain race and they're thinking, well, using polls, like you've got a train with them. It takes With them, you can get blisters on your hands. There's a there's definitely a technique. It changes, you're running, gait, it makes you stand up more, which is good on the clients, not on the flats. You you don't lean forward as much. You're not running quite as fast, so it does
Jeff: change. Your running, gait both for the better and for the worst and some scenarios. So, yeah, 100%, you have to train with them, you can get Elbow from the, my find well hitting on the Rocks repeatedly, you can get blisters in your hands. In fact, I wear bicycle gloves. When I'm using poles for more than a couple days at a time, padded gloves to help with that. So yeah, definitely, you have to train with them. We use ultralight poles. Specifically,
Jeff: the ones I use are the Black Diamond carbon distance or carbon said, distance polls. They're super light really fragile. You wouldn't want to lean on them. Very hard. We break them all the time. You know, I break one a season, probably one of two season. Like, in the middle, the pole, or like a tip off or either one? I mean, it's, I see people breaking them all the time by getting them stuck in boardwalks and in rocks, bolder Folds are really
Jeff: bad for that. They do break but that you know, but I'll see you use them for, you know, thousand or a couple thousand kilometers a year sometimes. So you know I'm definitely getting used out of them. But it was just natural to bring the polls over to fastpacking, I found. Because now, you're also helping with that pack weight and keeping that back kind of up. And, and when you're, when you are jogging on these Flats, you usually not kind of running.
Jeff: You're not using your regular running stride anyway. So I think the polls actually really help with that. The poles definitely lend themselves to that little increase the fishy, you know, we're talking two to three percent increase in efficiency, even on the clients but that adds Up over 100 plus miles.
Jeff: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I mean also from like a accident or injury prevention. I, you know, it's one thing to walk down a trail with 30 pound pack or a 20 pound pack and use poles. And that's immensely helpful as it is. But, you know, if you're running up and down mountains, it's like if an accident does happen, it's way more likely to be more severe. So having that extra Stability and having those those two extra legs, it's
Jeff: got to be pretty beneficial.
Jeff: Yeah, pulse can definitely help in a fall. You just want to make sure you don't use the straps on the down or even on the flats because if you trip you can you can trip in yourself with your poll. You want to build the link, go without that, pull, or right away. But there's definitely a technique to how to use those straps for the clients and they can
Tayson: really help. Yeah, I'm gonna have to look into this and give it a shot at some point. I know I'm Gonna Fill quite awkward trying to run with polls, but I'm intrigued. I'm really interested in this concept. So, Let's talk a little bit more about just what's in your pack per se, when you're, when you're fast packing. And if you could, maybe explain some of the difference is between what an Ultra Lite Backpacker, might be taking and what a fast pack
Tayson: Backpacker might be taking. I know there's going to be a lot of overlap or I would assume there's a lot of overlap but I've just been interested to hear from your perspective, things that you look at or change. That maybe an ultra Backpacker wouldn't be considering as much.
Jeff: Yeah, there's definitely more similarities than there are differences. And that's where I'm really looking to the ultralight. Backpacking Community to learn. But having said that, there are a lot of things that I think that I've brought over as a trail Runner, where it's interesting to see that there's these kind of fundamental cultural differences between the two and I'll talk about a couple of those as well. That the biggest difference really is the pack, then maybe we could be. If I set
Jeff: that aside for a second, talk about everything else that goes in the pack like you said I mean shelters are shelters, right? So that's again, where I'm really trying to learn about my sleep system and my shelters and sleeping pad and you know, I'm just transitioning over to using a quilt. Now, I like bivy sacks. I love the Simplicity of the baby, especially for us. Sometimes we're only getting four to five hours of sleep. So, setting up a tent, you know,
Jeff: I'd rather just throw a baby down on the side of the of the Trail and jump in for a few hours, but still, I mean all that stuff. It's all the same, it's all the same gear. So again, that's where I really looked at the ultra Lake Community to keep learning about this stuff. Clothing would be different. So like most people were not bringing extra clothes, you know, we're running pretty light, but our Base clothing, layers are pretty light, you know,
Jeff: we're usually in shorts and t-shirt, maybe a lightweight hard shell, and then a lightweight down puffy. And I might sleep in like a thermal a thermal layer at night, you know, some Merino wool and things, but I think during the day, we're generally were burning pretty hot. So we're wearing less clothing. So that's that's a small difference. So you're not taking like pants
Tayson: or anything like that, it's just shorts and maybe thermals
Jeff: it depends on the weather. I mean, we did the Tahoe room Trail, a couple years ago or at least attempted it and it was a high snowy year and we did bring crap owns and you know Tights and things like that. And we definitely needed some extra some extra thermal gear. But really for me, I think fastpacking is it's more of a summer thing, you know? Like it's hard to truly fast packing the winter. There's just too much gear that you
Jeff: need. It becomes a hike. So yeah, so generally speaking. So in the summer it's it's way less clothing. So it's it's starting with what would I run in and then what do I need to stick comfortable at night, but there's very little Twin, you know, you're usually running 12, 13 hours and then you're sleeping for a few hours. I like to eat on the trail, like I would rather I like to eat that. I should say hot food on the trail.
Jeff: I have gotten in the habit of stopping and making a lunch kind of halfway through the day, which yeah, it takes a little bit of extra weight. You're gonna carry a stove, but I just like having a nice big hit of calories during the day and then, as well, a nice big meal at the end of the day and I like hot coffee in the morning. So I, you know, I haven't gotten even over to the cold soaking and stuff yet.
Jeff: I would be willing to try it. But again here this is a little bit different. Like if you're running 340 miles in a day versus hiking 20, I mean you're burning a lot more calories. So you ask me what
Tayson: kind of calories, do you think you estimate burning?
Jeff: It's tough to say, I mean, going back to that very first stage race that I mentioned. I asked, I made it that I, I carried with me, 14,000 calories for seven days and That barely covered. My base metabolic rate and I figure I'd burned 40,000 calories that week and I lost most of my body fat like I came back like Skin and Bones so that was a big learning experience for me since then I have done some other things. Some multi-day
Jeff: hikes and fast packs where I really up that clerk count. So I'm looking more at. I'll do about 2000 calories per day just of what I would call, run food Clif, bars blocks gels. So really quickly, digestible simple carbohydrates. Another 2000 or so. In actual lunches like an in meals. So, I'm usually doing about 4 to 4500 Cal 4,000 to 4500 calories per day. Now,
Tayson: That probably still isn't even covering it, but I had a survive on 2000 calories a day. Oh, I think in the office
Jeff: and that was moving between, I mean that I was doing between 50 to 80 kilometers. So 30 to 30 to 50 Miles on 2000 Cal big mistakes. So since learned that. So again, this is where there's a downside to moving a little bit more each day, you're drinking more water. You need more salt to balance out that water and you need more calories. And that's where for me, I found the sweet spot is about a resupply, every two and a half
Jeff: days or so maybe maybe after three
Jeff: nights but that's pushing it. So I would, you know, if I'm doing a five to Six fast pack. I want to do it at least one resupply in the middle of that which is more frequent. I think they're not, the average hiker would would do if you were through hiking. So, it changes things, right? But again, it's that, you know, there's this balance because at some point, if you're carrying too much food, now you go to go slower, which means you
Jeff: need more food because you're going to take longer. So, you're definitely walking in that on that you're running on that edge. So, it's yeah. So I think if I had to put a number on, I'd say, probably around 4,000 calories a day, would
Jeff: be about right for me. I'm trying to imagine on your like your route planning. You have to be way more deliberate of delivered about route planning for water because they're totally you can't run with a gallon or two gallons. No water on your back know, which is
Jeff: know exactly. Exactly. And that's and again, coming as a trailer winner, we're doing this all ready because we might be doing these 50k routes, these 30 mile routes in a single day where we've all we were doing that already. We're thinking okay, you know, we got to start with the leader or two because there's no water until this point. We're sweating our butts off, right? Because we're running. So that should be. Something that trail Runners were already used to doing which
Jeff: is planning around water sources and that that's that's a major consideration in a routing. So I just bring that same mentality into my fast packing and unfortunately. When you start to really try to be planning things that Flex, you need to certain level flexibility. And so something I've learned the hard way is that you do need to have plan, B, plan, C like, you gotta have these backup plans, sometimes you know, water sources dry up and a matter of weeks and
Jeff: the beta you got Is now out of date and you can find yourself in trouble or maybe you can't cross a creek and now you have to Camp somewhere where you hadn't planned or you know, things happen, right? So again you're always kind of on that edge and it is sort of it's a little bit pushing things a little bit more than you would be. If you had the flexibility, when hiking and having just more gear and more time to figure things out.
Tayson: Yeah, it's super interesting. So when you put all of this together, you know, what is kind of your pathway or and then like your Trail when you're when you're heading out there are you you know before Fuel and few food? What kind of weight are you looking at? And then when you add those back in,
Jeff: I mean again here it's basically it's the same as what an Ultra Lite Backpacker would be. You know, I'd love to get down to like six pounds but it, you know, it depends on the on the season. Shoulder season. I might need to carry crap ones, that's gonna wait a little bit more. If I am carrying extra warm clothing, that's going to weigh a bit more too. I got a lighter rate baby this year. That's gonna bring me down a little
Jeff: bit but Caring. Now between about 10 to 12, maybe 13 pounds actually closer to even 15 pounds with all the food with everything in. So my base weight is probably, I mean bass, weight can be Scrapped in a few different ways, right? I'd say probably around nine pounds by the number on it. Yeah, kind of depends. I think the next thing for me is going to be looking at, you know, do I need to cook the trail or can I get
Jeff: away with cold soaking?
Tayson: You know, use copy, that's tough because you're talking, if you're, if you're using titanium stuff, if you're using alcohol, stoves, you're not talking much weight. I mean, you're talking no
Jeff: know exactly. Exactly. And that's where for me, I think the next step is looking at doing some bigger things in Europe and we're actually looking at trying to get over to Europe to live there for a while and doing some of these really big, you know the gr 10 that runs the entire way to the French Alps and you can stay in refugio's and stuff along the way, the big, the big loop that I did my race. In the Italian Alps
Jeff: followed Roots, called the Alta via one and the Alta via two, and we were using the Refuge, oops, up in the mountains as Aid stations and you could, if you were through through hiking that or fastpacking you could simply stay at those places and now you're not caring food in our Karen, cooking supplies or caring shelter. I mean now you're talking about like a three or four pound bass weight. If that really you're just carrying clothing for the day and some
Jeff: food so snacks. So now you could do multi-week fast Where you're doing? 30 Mi days. Just moving, you know, and having big big meals, you know, multi-thousand calorie meals with wine if you want at the end of the day. And so that that actually really appeals to me too. I think that's probably, you know, I love, I love Backcountry stuff. I love being out in the wild but when you start to deal with like, for example, bear safety is a tough
Jeff: one and of still struggling with. I use a bare bag right now, like an earth sack but I even that it's not ideal and if I want to do something like the GMT, I'm gonna have to carry a bear canister. I can't carry a bareback through Yosemite, so even that I'm looking at people. What, what pack am I going to need for that curious? 35 liter probably instead of the 25-year I've been using so I think I think looking at some
Jeff: of these other routes Patagonia again, in Europe Slovenia, you know, there's some incredible Hut to Hut Roots you can do and that's where I think fastpacking really shines and when you look at a lot of the tutorials, a lot of the videos, a lot of the the That do exist out there but fast packing, they're all pretty centered on more. That Hut based that hut-to-hut thing where, you know, you can do the tmb, for example, around Mont Blanc, pretty comfortably in
Jeff: three days, either, staying in towns, or staying in refugios. That's a great example of something that I think is, a much better, is much better done as a fastpack, then as a multi-day, hike. I think it's a much more exciting to me to do that over two or three days, and it would be to do it over a week. Gotcha.
Tayson: It's all fascinating. It's really interesting. I mean, I it's even interesting to me just to to learn. I need there's so much. I need to learn about some of this International trails and just getting those things on my radar of things to potentially do. Right? I mean, I think so often our followers and US included just get so fixated on just through hiking. And for some of us through hacking is, probably not a reality, not something that will ever happen section.
Tayson: Yes, but, I'm sure there's a lot of other just amazing Trails out there that are, you know, one two weeks at most and would be possible for for us. So, I don't know. I find that all really, really interesting. So let's, I'd love to hear about You know what, what is what was then your favorite trip and what was rewarding about that trip? If you're to look back at all, the things you've done leaves. Like you've said, you've you've run all
