Transcript auto-generated with Google Speech-to-Text diarization and lightly cleaned for speaker names. Speaker labels use first names only.
Tayson: So here's the big question, how do we live a life, full Adventures, travel and memories on our terms without being millionaires without previous experience? And without unlimited amounts of time, that's the big question and this podcast will give you the answers. I'm your co-host Tayson and I'm Dave and you're listening to the live
Dave: ultralight podcast powered by Outdoor Vitals. On today's episode, we sit down with Devin Karch. Also, known by his channel name of Darwin the Hiker, he talks to us about falling in love with the Appalachian Trail, at the age of three, we talked about the differences in hiking, the PCT versus the 80 and how to plant financially for six months on the trail. He also tells us a story about his brief run and with Whitney Houston and how we wound up in the backseat of a stranger's car with an enormous Pitbull, while on the at. So let's welcome to the show.
Devin: Hey, great to be here.
Dave: Awesome. So do you want to just tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and your hiking experience and we'll take it from there?
Devin: Yes. So my trail name I guess. Darwin. And I started. long distances as a teenager, and It's like I'm trying to think about
Dave: I'm just um, yeah I guess So. How did you get into like where you're from the East Coast. So maybe where did how did you grow up? Did you grow up hiking or? Is that something that came to you a little bit later in life?
Devin: Definitely, I actually remember the first hike I ever went on. I was three years old, and my parents took me to a place called Mohonk Mountain. So state New York because at the time we were living in Queens which is definitely not a very outdoorsy area at all. And there's there's this hike there called The Labyrinth and the lemon squeeze and it's kind of a scramble a few Miles, and I remember being three years old and absolutely loving it. You know, it was like a total playground for someone like me and I really never looked back. So kind of, as I got older and older, and a little bit, you know, bigger and wise. Or I started kind of dreaming towards doing things a little bit bigger. My parents never took me camping or backpacking or anything like that, but as a 16 year old, I went out on the Appalachian Trail for the first time, I remember, Asking. Hey, have you ever heard of the Appalachian trails? Yeah, of course. It's very, very famous thing. So, I plan to two week trip from the Delaware Water Gap to a spot in Vermont and height. Hike the whole Trail and met, just some of the craziest characters I've ever met in my life. I Remember maybe the the most pivotal person? I met to convince me to want to do a through hike. Was this guy that came into Camp just as the sun was setting. I mean he had the tiniest backpack. I've ever seen. He was So skinny. I mean, the skin was hanging off his bones like he looked like he had lost So much weight. I've later found out that they lost 90 pounds as he was like So far. And he took out a dry package of ramen noodles and he ate it dry but like he didn't cook it or anything like that. And he swigged the flavor packet with With a glass of water at. And then had a dry package of oatmeal swing that with water. And then he had done 45 miles that day, and his trailing was Whitney Houston. And I remember just sitting there and picking his name and picking his brain and being like, well, first of all, why are you telling us that your name is Whitney Houston and that kind of brought us into what a trail name is. And he said he had walked there from Georgia and we were in New York at the time. I mean So mind blowing to me and I could see this kind of gliten, his eye, that wasn't there for the normal kind of shorter distance, hikers, not to say there's anything wrong with it or anything, but there was a little bit of Adventure and, you know, Steely glint his eye that. Kind of piqued my interest. So from that point onward, I was hooked. I absolutely had to hike the Appalachian Trail from Georgia to Maine. And you said you were
Dave: 16 is that correct when you?
Tayson: Yeah. You just gave a lot to unpack there because that's super interesting that first off you're 16 and you're going out on this trip for two weeks. I mean I would say most of our listeners have never been on a trip for two weeks straight. You said you kind of got hooked, you know, doing some day hikes and things. But I mean, what drove you to even do that first initial two week height. That's that's extreme for for young kids.
Devin: Absolutely. And it was kind of an extreme thing that happened. I mean my father had gotten sick and Passed away when I was 14 years old. So I spent a lot of time kind of Ruminating I had no idea what to do with myself or how to do kind of get. he's emotions out, you know, I was a kid I had, you know, I played basketball and that was a very great way to You know, exercise and and get some of the aggression out and everything, but it wasn't until I something just clicked, I think in terms of being out in the, you know, being out in nature on a Day hike, and I just thought to myself, I want to go camping and then I remember convincing a few my friends, just go camping in the local, you know, like local park kind of area and I absolutely loved it and it was just kind of just ramping myself up. I don't, I can't really give you an exact Catalyst that was like, okay, you're gonna go on two weeks, you know, my original planning was, all right, you'll do five days, wait, you'll do this, you'll do that. You know, I was going to do certain sections of a certain Trail and it wasn't until I oh look at this. It's a the Appalachian Trail. I can I can hike, 150 miles and I'll still only be an hour and a half away from my house either way. So It just was a big leap and I was you
Tayson: led had you taken hikes leading up to this like a few days at a time or was it kind of like, I've done an overnighter and that was it. And then I'm gonna two weeks.
Devin: It was like, overnight her and then straight into it.
Tayson: Yeah, and I was
Devin: miserable.
Tayson: What kind of shocking experience was that?
Devin: Oh my God, I mean my I was the worst. The first backpack I bought was an 85 liter Osprey, you know, mountaineering backpack. I was thinking of course, I'll need all of that space. You know, a 20 degree synthetic sleeping bag from a place called Eastern Mountain Sports, that took up, maybe 40 liters of that 85 and it was So horrible. And My I just I just had no idea what I was doing. I would take gallon, Ziploc bags, and fill them to the brim with almonds and jerky. And as if like any human being would eat, you know, Six pounds of almonds and two weeks. In any circumstance. So my backpack weighed I can't even imagine 70 80 pounds and yeah.
Tayson: Good
Dave: learning experience there for you.
Devin: Oh, 100%. And I also remember something within the first two miles of hiking from the Delaware, Water Gap. I remember my mom saying, hey, I'll buy you a piece of gear. Do you want me to buy you? Trekking poles, and I said, like, no way, you know, only like Old people and everything would use trekking, poles. Like and then within like the first few miles, I had two sticks in each. I had to stick in each hand and I was using them as just worst types of tracking polls for the entire trip.
Tayson: I mean with an 80 pound pack, trekking, poles are highly useful. Let me know useful in any scenario, but with that much weight, they come in serious handy. Absolutely. So that's super interesting. I mean, you're out here on the trail. Now, you've Got ramped up. You've done you don't have much experience. You get out here on this Trail and you meet this guy who just totally motivates. You, you see this this glint in his eye. and,
Dave: Something
Tayson: just clicks in there, right? So, So that happens at 16 and then you go and and just sort of listeners know you, you hike the PCT first. And then the at correct,
Devin: right. Right. So,
Tayson: So, you know, let's let's, let's jump forward. Just a little bit to right before you start, hiking the PCT. So how many years have gone by what's your occupation? Kind of, where you at in your life, when, when you get to this point?
Devin: So, let's see. I had just graduated from college. So, I just graduated from NYU and I was, I did a nols course in Patagonia for a couple months, but that was just kind of like a, you know, fun thing to do for myself and then basically just worked kind of odds and then jobs until April 2014. So I graduated in, May 2013, went down to Patagonia for three months, worked odds, and then jobs, I have been saving for, for my entire college career to go down to Patagonia and to And just through hike anyway. So I didn't have to do too much saving to begin with. So, yeah, I was just kind of fresh out of school, but Absolutely raring to go. Did you
Tayson: do any hiking through college? Did you continue doing section hikes? Or
Devin: absolutely throughout college and and before the PCT, I probably done well over like maybe 1100 miles of the Appalachian Trail just in sections. Stuff because I like I said, I was So hooked and I loved the culture behind it. I loved meeting the through hikers and long-distance hikers, and here in their Trail names and their stories and just kind of ticking off different
Tayson: parts of the trail knowing full well, that I was gonna hike the whole thing from start to finish at some point. Anyway, So
Dave: why did you decide to do the PCT over the at first? I met my now wife
Devin: at NYU and the and I went to California for the first time in my senior year of college and she took me to Yosemite, she's from the Bay Area and like within the first five minutes of rounding the corner and Yosemite I said, okay, I have to do the Pacific Crest Trail.
Dave: I know, you're like the biggest, you're somebody family. So describe that describe your. I mean, maybe maybe that wasn't your first time out west, but you first time out west and hiking on the trails out here, like, you know, for me, I know what that experience was like, being from the east coast and then coming out on the west coast and doing some Some hiking out west in general. And it's just So much different So maybe if you can explain that, So different. Well,
Devin: for the first, first part, most of the trails out west. And that was my first time out west. The first time I ever went to California. I went to Yosemite within the first couple days and we hike Half Dome and A point like the panorama Ridge Trail and all these amazing things and I was immediately going okay, these trails are So much nicer than the East Coast trails that I'm used to know, offensive East Coast Trails. They have their great qualities but there was just a gray to the trails was nicer because they use it for horses and pack animals. And the switchbacks instead of just going straight up a mountain, you know, on Appalachian Trail or or anyone in East Coast. They pretty much just chose. And then you go straight up the mountain down, the mountain straight up straight down out west. It was all sudden it was these beautiful switchbacks traversing, you know, a beautiful views and waterfalls and granite monoliths that are thousands of feet taller than the biggest mountain on in New York. Let alone, you know. On the Appalachian Trail. So I just was So it was just an eye-opening experience and I couldn't wait, I couldn't wait to do that PCT first, our second, after the at
Dave: Nice. And you, did you do that by yourself? Did you start off alone? I
Devin: actually started with the Buddy, a high school friend of mine and he never he didn't make it the whole way. He had a bail somewhere through California, it wasn't really his thing. um, but yeah, I mean, I guess I You know, he started the hike. As an individual, I started the hike as an individual. We just happened to know each other. So I did start a loan and finished alone as well. You know you make lifelong friends out there. I still have friends to this day that I talked to
Dave: absolutely. So I guess for someone that's looking to get into doing the PCT, we'll say for example we'll take that one, we'll be some advice. Prepare for that. For me, the biggest question I guess would be financially but we could take it other parts of that into a but let's just say someone financially, what would be the best advice you could give for them?
Devin: So it would be like plan very far ahead. So for me knowing as a teenager that I was going to do this. I kind of I just had like a an account. I mean it started off as an envelope in my dresser as a teenager, you know, and I would just add money to it whenever I could, I also would use any situation. To get free gear to make my own gear to get gear that's on sale. That I know. Will, you know, you can't buy. You can't buy 2,000 worth also like gear and one, go for the most part and then have another, you know, 4000 dollars, ready for the trail. Many people can't do that. So for me, it was building your dream gear set over a series of years. You know, I mean birthday, Is, if you have people that, you know, oh, I would love this stove, you know, this like cook pot, you know, and then there you go. You have your little ultralight titanium, cook pot or something like that or you find something online or gear swap. So you have to really plan ahead. I was lucky that I found it as a teenager So I didn't have So much priority. You know, I didn't have bills and and all these things that a lot of older people would have at the time and what I have now but Definitely plan ahead, just put that money away. I think. if you can have four grand in your account that you're ready to spend every penny of, You could probably make it through any one of the big three Trails if you're willing to sacrifice some comfort, but also not be totally sparked him. So and then there's a million and one ways to save money while you're on the trail, you know, which we can get into as well. So
Dave: what do you think was your baby expense on the truck? Not for not for the gear itself, but Strictly food is really all you're paying for for the most part, right?
Devin: And the most part for the most part, I mean, a room here and there will cost you, you know, if it depends. If you're going to go to a hiker hostel, it could be free and, you know, and all and you might cook dinner for the person who owns the house or it might be ten dollars or five dollars or or you want to get a real hotel room that could be 40 bucks. Are you getting that hotel room by yourself? Or are you gonna share it with two other hikers? Then it's very cost effective, but some will have to sleep on the floor, you know? It's, yeah, it's difficult for the Appalachian Trail. I was lucky enough to be hiking with my my girlfriend. So, we were able to, you know, a 40 dollar hotel room for us is 20 bucks. Whereas a lot of hostels might be twenty dollars for a bunk bed. So, but yes, for the most part food, you know, when you go into town and you have hiker hunger, you're going to get to entrees wolf it down. And then you're going to be hungry two hours later and get more food, you know? And then you're going to go grocery shopping on top of it. And So, yeah, it's food. It's gonna be food. It's gonna be your main is your main thing.
Dave: So, what would you say? Would be some advice to save food wise? Like, how could you, you know, be a little bit more budget friendly or conscious with your food on the trail?
Devin: First, and foremost, don't, don't buy Free like, like prepackaged freeze-dried meals for everything now. They're great. Like don't get me wrong. They're very convenient and they're usually pretty flavorful. I mean, they usually have a decent amount of salt and stuff in them too, but You know, they're usually pretty light and well portioned, but they're all very expensive. So if you're going to do two two meals of those a day or something like that, you're gonna start racking up a lot of money. If you were to buy a pound of pasta which could be two and a half days worth of hot dinners for you. That's a that's a dollar in the store. What you mix into that is up to you, you know, having a little spice kit is always going to make things more flavorful and that's not gonna cost you a lot of money. Garlic powder, you know, cayenne pepper, salt pepper, having just those kind of things. You know. There's certain things that like, it depends on what type of person you are in terms of your what kind of diet you want to, because you could survive off of Snickers and ramen and spend no money at all. But you're also probably not going to feel very good either. So you know, the professional way to save money, is you buy a dehydrator? You spend a couple, you know, you six months before you have to start dehydrating things, you do a practice run with all these vegetables and meats and stuff. Like That. You know six months later taste them did, they did they, did they taste good, you know, after six months of being on the shelf and then repeat that for the trail. Now I've never done that because that's very Time. But that's kind of like the most cost-effective.
Dave: Do you see a lot of people doing that?
Devin: Now, you don't see a lot of people doing it, but you definitely see a small contingent of kind of die-hard dehydrate. You know, they've got everything, and you're jealous of their meals, you know, they've got dehydrated beef that they cook up and, and curries, and all these things. But, you know, they said they spent a year tinkering with the machine for us to get it to where they liked it, you know.
Dave: Yeah, it's like a full-time job inside of a full-time job.
Tayson: That's wild. So, like, I mean, but to eat cheap, like, do you worry about nutrition? Like, are you getting? I mean, that one guy, you just talked about. He lost, like, 90 pounds, or whatever. But, like, you worry about nutrition, like, is it, is it? I feel like to eat cheap, right? Like, I can go back to my college days and eat ramen or whatever, but and that's the cheap before the whole thing to do. But if you're hiking all day, is not pretty grueling. It's it's
Devin: yeah. It's and you're gonna feel it too. So that guy that I mentioned, who had lost 90 pounds. I think he started at about 20090 pounds to begin with. So, Big guys, I mean myself, I I'm a pretty big guy, you know, I'm six and a half feet tall around 250 pounds. Before I started the trail and I lost like 20, 30 pounds myself. I had kind of the way to lose. Nutritionally. For some in my size. It's a little difficult, because if I start carrying enough calories and I start burning more calories and it's kind of like a catch-22. You start carrying too much and then you start burning more. yes, nutrition is Super key, but at the same time you also need the calories. So like a Snickers bar. Is going to be something that you grab quicker than, you know, you're not going to. Roll carrots and apples because they're heavy. Its everything is usually processed or concentrated for the most parts. So that's when you're going to town and you start and you just Gorge yourself on. how fresh food, you know, but on the trail yeah, nutrition is kind and dairy thing. It's more about just getting the calories in you to keep yourself going one step at a time.
Tayson: Now, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, yeah, that's that would just be. My big thing is, I'm always planning calories and seeing a light, I can get to hit the calorie mark that I want, but I feel like when I watch a lot of these at guys, I feel like they're, you know, just I don't know, like, 150 pounds and they're eating Ramen and they're totally fine with it. And I'm like, dude, I'm, you know, I'm 220. And I'm six three and I'm I can't do that. That's how I feel. At least. Totally.
Devin: I mean that's big guys, I feel like we and the trail looking like we just came out of you know the gulag and Russia or something like that. Whereas whereas I've noticed this women actually they you know they in the trail and they look like Wonder Woman you know they're all fantastic shape and they all look healthy and you know but then all the guys are these bearded, you know, amazing weirdos.
Dave: So So you graduated from school, you got on patagon, you take a Knowles class, you ready to hit the trail, So maybe he can walk us through the first week on the trail. What was going through your mind? I mean, obviously, you
Tayson: were excited. We nervous. I feel like though just before he answers this, he's pretty well. Seasoned. I mean, at this point, he's hiked farther than I would say 90% of most people starting this Trail. So I'll just, I just wanted to point that out. A little disclaimer before he says he's like, oh yeah, super easy. I was just excited was, you know anyways, go on to your first week here.
Devin: No, that's true. But I did have some, I did have more experience than some People. But at the same time with the PCT at least back in 2014 before it really exploded, a lot of the people were coming off their second through hike. So there was a lot of people who Or they're doing their second through life. So there's a lot of people who had done that relationship trailer ready and they had the more experienced than me and that type of thing. But that I started the trail with confidence in myself that I could, I could do a series of four to five days over five months but I was incredibly nervous. You know what? What happens if I sprained my ankle in the first you know? Five miles. I told all my friends and family. I'm going to do this at Epic undertaking and you know, I'm gonna bail on the first day because I will not enjoying it, So, it definitely something like a healthy reasonable going or to, or to be nervous. But I definitely was afraid of failure, you know, it was definitely, I had convinced myself that I can do it, but there's So many things outside of my control. And and then that first day, everything started out fantastic. I'm at the Mexican border taking photos and, you know, sticking my foot under the fence to say I've technically in Mexico. And everything's fantastic. And then I get to that first Hill and and I'm like, all right, I'm gonna crush up this and everything and you know, cut to five minutes later and I'm like red face in like the in the shade, you know, because I just totally bitten off more than I could chew right off the bat and I was like, okay, this is going to be a lot harder than I expected and it kind of was a big slap in the face that that first day on the trail was was Harder than I expected it to be, especially the PCT. So the PCT, the first day is a 20-mile day. So the first water source. So you have to be 20 miles in your first day if you want to drink. If you don't want to carry all of your water,
Tayson: gotcha. And I mean, but it's a pretty flat, doesn't it start off pretty flat or is that a myth and my head?
Devin: I mean relative to certain things sure, but if you're, you know, I was in, I was in decent shape, but I also started the trail, you know, you I got my shuttle. Later in the day. So I started in the middle of the day So you're hiking in the heat of the day. So any like sustained uphill In the Heat of the day when you're carrying five liters of water and your entire first six days of food, it's definitely tough looking back. I probably, you know, when I'm, when I was out when you're a thousand miles in you, you're laughing at yourself because of how easy it looks, but to say it's flat,
Tayson: I think it's a little bit of a mess. Yeah.
Dave: So, what would you say was the most challenging part of the hike? Like was there ever a time? Like I don't, I'm over this.
Devin: Yeah. Oh, 100%, Northern California. I I never wanted to hike another step in my life. I never wanted to do anything like this ever again. And I was every day I was within moments of quitting because You know, you go through. You start the trail and you go through 700 miles of the desert and that's kind of your going and your and your passage to then enter the High Sierra which is a couple 100 miles of just absolute stunning. Glorious, you know, perfect, groom Trail, and your you get as much water as you want and it doesn't rain and you're attacking a different pass every day. And then you hit Northern California, and it's July. And it's 100 degrees out and you're down, you know, you're back down at 6,000 7. Thousand. The water sources are now 15 to 20 miles apart again and you're going, wait a second. I thought I was done with this and then on top of that, the people who are hiking with, we kind of got split up because a certain, like injuries, and, you know, some people wanted to take days off in certain towns. So, I was hiking by myself and didn't Have the moral support of familiar faces to keep me going. The weather was, you know, super high and yeah. There your body is absolutely hurting in the sense that you your feet and your legs will definitely hurt. You know, no matter how well. You take care of yourself, you're going to be sore and then anytime you sit down, as soon as you, you know, you'll cramp up and there's something called, like, the, through hiker moans. So, if you watch a bunch of sit down for five minutes and then when everyone gets up, it's all just like, okay, let me just get up and then, you know, they all have to moan as they rise, just because you're So stiff, you're just you're absolutely worked every day. I definitely considered quitting many many times, but again, for a while there on the PCT, it was all just I couldn't live with myself thinking. Like I can't believe you're gonna quit this, you know, out of all the things in your life, you're just gonna quit this. And you're So lucky to even be able to do this, what, you know. So it was a lot of a kind of yelling at myself to keep going for a while, but it all turned around eventually and that was kind of the power. I brought to the Appalachian Trail, which, you know, I knew that there's going to be a low moment in your hike, or in any hike where You need to kind of push away through it and then it's all going to be worth it. So, So,
Tayson: let me slay down there for just a second. I bet there's a lot of people that are just a home thinking like man that's sounds like it is super tough like it doesn't sound like you're having fun anymore and isn't this supposed to be fun? But then you kind of said it's worth it. So it's kind of two parts to this. But let's first talk about that. That part like it sounds like So far. You've mentioned a few times that this is really goal-oriented like you want to accomplish this. That's that's where the fun is coming. Is that am I correct in that or like you enjoy every day on the trail? Where's it more? Just about like checking it off the list. I mean, like man, I did that and that's crazy.
Devin: I think there was an element to that when I first started, when I first kind of That of going from A to B, you know, doing the whole Trail and not missing anything. but no, absolutely every day on the trail, I mean, you have low moments but it's not like you had Dare you were where you were miserable, you know for 24/7 it just kind of where it was moments where you were like okay all of these things have piled up on me and I'm feeling it right now, really badly. But at the same time they those things were absolutely dwarfed and shadowed by the by the you know the serendipitous moments of kindness and friendship. And that's not even mentioning the actual physical nature of being in these places. I mean, you walked through, you walk through the Mojave Desert, you walk through King's Canyon National Park, you'll send me Koya National Park. Lassen National Park Crater Lake. All of these world class places and you get to Traverse them Traverse through them like you know the most natural possible way and The characters you mean out there you know like that Whitney Houston guy or you know I met people I know people named wet wipes. I know people named dog Mouse and stuff like that, where you know you meet these characters that are lifelong friends and the sunsets the Stars, everything I know I make it sound. I know I've probably just making it sound hard because it absolutely is, but that's not where the motivation to continue is. It's the Pure Freedom, you know. Absolute freedom, to take one step that day, 100 steps that day, you could hike. 50 miles that day. You could stop. You know, you could eat as much as you want. Eat is left. It's just absolute pure autonomy, over the self. For five glorious months. And then you gotta go back to the real world.
Tayson: No, I mean, that's that's super interesting because for me like, I've been able to like set goals and accomplish goals and feel that what that feels like, you know, be able to set my sight, super, super high. Work my guts out for months or years and accomplished something, but sometimes, you know me, I don't know if I necessarily have that taste my mouth like, man, I've got to do with through hike. I've got to do it through hike because like, I can see the goal part. I can see the gold part of like, hiking a bee and being able to say that. But yeah, I think it's interesting to try to unpack the, you know what's What's So great about it on that daily daily basis and I think I think you did a good job. Just just describing that. If you were to just again, think about it like on a day by day by day basis, like you wake up in the morning. And I mean is it just the freedom that you're just So excited about or is there something each day that you pick out to look forward to or you know like like maybe like breaking down just one step further from what you said because you kind of lame some highlights there. Let's go like one step closer of just like every day like what is it about being on the trail. That that is That that's So great.
Dave: Yeah, it's actually really interesting question that break it down that small. So I guess
Devin: see you wake up. Say you're on the PCT you're out of usually like a water source or one of the most beautiful campsites. You ever been to in your entire life, and you're only sharing that with like a select few people who had the idea to hike out there. So you're among common, you know, people in the sense that at least on one ground, you guys are Out there
Tayson: are they almost always through hikers too or these sometimes you get people off the trail.
Devin: I mean, it depends on where you are. There's certain choke points where it's going to be predominantly through hikers, depending on which Trail, but no, you'll have section hikers, and, and we can hikers, and day hikers and stuff like that,
Tayson: okay? I mean sorry I didn't mean to stop you there but
Devin: I don't know no more problems. So then So you know on the 18th a bit more community-oriented, you usually waking up around a shelter, one of those three sided lean twos. So you know, Having breakfast together and it's the best breakfast you've ever eaten in your entire life because you're starving, you are drinking water from the stream and it's the most delicious water you've ever drank because you're incredibly thirsty. And, you know, you can feel every muscle in your body and you can feel, you know, exactly how much food you're going to need that morning. Exactly. You know what clothing you're gonna wear? How many miles you're going to hike? You have Idea. You know, and you're sharing these ideas with people who you've spent probably 24 hours a day, seven days a week with, you know, we call it the trembling, it's the trail family. So, on a day-to-day basis, it's those people that are adding a huge impact to the enjoyment of a hike. Like, you know, a lot of people start a hike off and they want to be thorough and, you know, they went out there to live deliberately and they're going to carry, you know, a nice and go forwarding every day. It's really not like that for 99.9% of people. It's it's a very social Kind of growth experience that you experience alongside these kooky and and, you know, quirky characters. So yeah. On the given day, it's what craziness are you going to witness, you know, you know, are you gonna laugh in the face of another Halestorm? The third day? And, you know, you there's a, there's kind of a crazy little glint in your eye that you get that. Okay, I've just survived another thing. I've just gotten through another thing, we just hiked another 100 miles like what, you know, I'm I can do this or, you know, That I'm talking to have been telling me about their lives and they're similar to me and I want to do better by others, simply because they've been kind to me. So there's there's that kind of day-to-day thing where you're interacting with fellow hikers, your Seeing things that only people who are sleeping outside for several months, at a time, or going to see because you're putting yourself out there. You have a higher probability to see the best Sunset you've ever seen the best sunrise. Bears wildlife. Wild flowers, those types of things because you're out there for five months, you're going to see, maybe three seasons of nature.
Tayson: Yeah. And I think I mean that's that's a great description and that's exactly what I was looking for is is just kind of hearing that from you but I mean it really sounds like it comes from like a place of kind of like Zen and freedom just like ultimate Freedom like you were talking about but then also like you're So disconnected from technology in the hustle and bustle and to-do lists, and You know, I've got to get this done and this done that, you can appreciate that. Wildflower, that you can appreciate that Sunset. I mean, that's I think that's what most people crave and getting Outdoors is getting that disconnect. But And there's nothing wrong with this. I mean, I do it all the time, but like, sometimes you go out for like one day, two days and afternoon. you know, you're doing these smaller frequent hikes and they're really important but I would imagine you get to like a Next Level when you're out for a week and and of that disconnect and you're out for a month of that disconnect and you're just So present, I would think in that moment that everything you're walking by everything you're seeing That's the most important thing in the world to you. Right now instead of thinking like man, this is super, super cool. But in the back of your mind, you might be playing, you know, that track of. I got to get this done tomorrow when I get home.
Devin: Absolutely. That's you. Become like you said, very present and also your priority shift. I think I remember reading a long time ago. Something about 21 days is kind of the magic number to break bad habits and things like that. So when you're out there for several weeks, you definitely That disconnect from politics, it's not to say that, you know, obviously when you go into town, everyone has a cell phone. Now, it's not like you're totally out there and you're disconnected, but your priorities, absolutely shift the fact that when you go into town and you're going to a bathroom with a flush toilet, you're gonna look at that differently. You're gonna look at just turning on a sink and drinking the water and not having to sit there and push it through a filter, you know, a mattress and a pillow are going to be the best. You know. They're going to be that much more special and important to you. So if you want to, like a way to kind of reset your priorities and kind of simplify your life, that's the way to do it. So, yeah, I guess it's like a Zen state where you just have to worry about eating, you know, your shelter, your well-being. And you're not really worried about all the things that occur in town life.
Tayson: Yeah. So do you sit to make it more enjoyable? Do you advise people go slower on the trail go faster on the trail like me just knowing me. I'd be like okay I want to I want to cruise this trial. I want to get it done in this amount of time or you know, something stupid like that. Like it sounds like maybe it could be more relaxing to be like, no. I'm gonna take these months and I'm just gonna walk at my pace and like Another is there anything there that you'd like to speak to
Devin: absolutely, I mean it depends on who you are. Both of my hikes on the PCT in 2014 and 18 in 2017. A string. Bean broke the fastest known time. He passed me both like he did. 65 miles. A day. Passed me on the PCT and he did 50 something a day pass on the 80. That guy is out there for absolutely completely different reason than me and most of the people. But then there are those who set out and they want to do it in 100 days or less or they want to do a four-month hike and and then, There are the two they're literal Trail names. Are going slow and and, you know, stuff that like they want everyone to know that if it takes them eight months, it's going to take a mate months for me. I'm kind of a little bit of a balance, you know, I don't mind taking a day off or not hiking 25 miles a day, sometimes, but when I'm hiking, I want to hike as fast as I possibly, can. I like if I see somebody in front of me, I have to try and pass them. I mean, it's like, it's like competitive to a fall, and I'm not and I'm not, you know, I never say anything to anybody, but I just whenever I'm hiking, I want to hike is fast as I humanly possibly can,
Tayson: So you, but you're talking about being really social. So, are you meeting these people at nights and in the mornings? But then in the day you're like, no, I'm I'm Darwin the Hiker, and I'm hiking with purpose, and My Pace
Devin: 100%. Well, sometimes I mean if you if you specifically talked to some people and you say oh that's like together for the next couple miles then the slowest person will hike in front and that person will will set the pace. With my girlfriend, how can we, in the ATI? I hiked her from most of the trail hiking, like, I just hiked behind her So that we could talk and stuff during the hike. But, whenever I wanted to, I just take off and go my own, my own speed. You'll find that like, most people on those Trails aren't necessarily looking to talk. While they're hiking, unless they know you are ready. And you know what I mean? Like, you make your friends and you make the and you make your connections at the campus sites or the water sources, or the shelters, depending on which Trail you're on, you know,
Dave: I would say to that it would you say The Stereotype that the at is a much Social Trail, much more social than the PCT? Well yeah definitely. I mean I'm not sure what the
Devin: PCT is like. Now I know it's definitely jumped up in popularity especially after the book Wild and the movie Wild came out. I mean that that came out the year. I like it came out. Just after I finished the movie did, at least the book was already out and there was already over 1000 people had a had put like their names in. So I mean, maybe now they're kind of equal in terms of their social, social ability. But from what I experienced, the Appalachian trails, way more, there's way more people in the application Trail. There's way more infrastructure around the trail, you know, for example when I in 2014 on the PCT at a place called Walker, pass a police officer, kind of came up to a group of us. The road crossing and asked us like what we were doing. I think maybe he thought we were hitchhike, like we were vagabonds or something and we're like, oh I can the Pacific Crest Trail and he had no idea what we were talking about. And this is like a guy who's jurisdiction, you know like several thousand people are going to cross through it over a season. He had no idea what the PCT was where I was on the East Coast. If you're going into Erwin Tennessee and you got a backpack on, they know you're an Appalachian Trail hiker, everybody knows.
Dave: It's crazy.
Tayson: Yeah, no, that's that whole social side is really interesting to me like, I don't think I would ever go out on the trail for the social aspect, but the way that you're talking about, it it's definitely making it sound more appealing and sound intriguing to me. I guess, like I said, that wouldn't be like a motivator, but it seems like I mean they're obviously is this huge like culture and like this huge I like Brotherhood almost around it. Like you see people like as you watch some of the videos on YouTube or something of people that are doing this? A lot of them are, you know, talk about Trail magic or guys giving them rights to town and like oh yeah you know, I got to this part on the hike and I you know, I hope to finish it one day and I like to just helping each other helping each other. It's it's a very interesting culture to me Brotherhood and just wouldn't be like a motivator to me, I don't think initially but it sounds like by the end of the trail, it becomes a huge motivator for everyone. Absolutely,
Devin: absolutely. Yeah, you don't go out there saying like I know I'm gonna make friends and I know I'm gonna do this. Usually the people that while you're going out there, the motivation is for some other reason. You're setting a goal for yourself. And then you make friends kind of as a symptom. Also, there's ways of kind of alleviating the crowds. You know, you could start early or late, there is this thing called the bubble. That's the, the hiker bubbles. So, for example, I think most people for the Appalachian Trail leave between March 15th and April 1st, So, if you leave within that time, you're going to be within the bubble, and that means you're going to be surrounded by. Theoretically, hundreds of people, if it's the beginning of the Appalachian Trail of the Pacific Crest Trail because, you know, a lot of people will hike, a couple hundred miles, and then they'll quit.
Dave: So what do you think from the people that you've met on the two Trails? What is their reasoning for for doing the hike? Like I hear a lot of people, you know, they get divorced and this is something they want to do or, you know, you feel that a lot of people are doing this for, you know, an achievement or they're maybe running away from something like you're talking about wild and that's kind of what made me think of that. The book and she's running away from something. Do you think a lot of people are doing that on the trail, or what is the mindset there? I would say that
Devin: a majority of people at least 51% of people are out there for the achievement aspect of it. You know what I mean? Like there, there's there because they want to Say to themselves or others? That like I said, I was gonna hike the whole population Trail and on the Crest Trail and I did it. And that feels fantastic to them. And whether that whether the motivation to do it is a meant like they want to mentally overcome the mental challenges behind doing a five month hike or the physical challenges or Sophia that they had. The they wouldn't us I don't think they would see it. As I'm out here running away from something you know like they might be using it as a therapeutic sense. You know there's a lot of soldiers and stuff that I hiked with that came back and they were
Tayson: combat,
Devin: you know, veterans and stuff. And they were kind of hiking the war off. But Are they escaping? I don't know. It's it kind of depends on them. There is an absolute aspect of people escaping from normal society, though. I mean, there are people that just kind of live out there. Like, I know, one guy who I saw on both trails? His Trail name was mover and basically, the way I think he lives his life as he bounces from Long Trail to Long Trail, depending on what time of the year. It is. So, he'll be hiking on the Florida Trail in the winter and just kind of lives off of the kind of the free stuff that hikers get, you know, like if you can go into a town and there's a church group doing Trail magic in their hand in hot dogs and hamburgers. Those people will be there too. And they may not actually be hiking. You know, like there's definitely people out there that are of that are avoiding criminal charges. There was a guy out there that had embezzled millions of dollars from Pepsi that was on the trail on Netflix and chill for years and he got caught. A event. But
Tayson: he to go live like
Devin: it was something like nine million dollars from Pepsi and then you should see the photos. I don't know how they recognized him. The guy grew out a huge hiker beard and yes, he was a well-known staple on the trail. Everyone knew him that the hostels all knew about him because he was always on the trail and then they called him.
Tayson: Social media. Got
Devin: them. Yeah. Somebody somebody recognized them and had a vendetta. I guess.
Dave: So what would you say was probably the most shocking thing? You've seen on either? One of the trails that that's a good story. That's an interesting one, but
Devin: Like I mean there's So many categories like the foot. Okay, the foot problems that you'll see like people's all of their toenails like came off and you're like, how does that even happen? Like what are you walking in a suit, like a suit of armor? You know, I don't understand or blisters that are the entire like back and bottom of a person's foot and they're like popping them in a shelter out in the woods. And you're just like, oh my God, that is horrifying. How You Gonna hike the next 20 miles to town like how you possibly going to do that. But you know what, the most like shocking incidents, what happened usually off the trail like just one guy we hitched me and two other hikers, hitched a ride with him. To go into town, I'm sorry. To come back to trail from town. We all have resupply. I didn't know who these hikers were. We just like you know we just knew we were all going back to the Pacific Crest Trail. So we stuck our thumbs out and Pulls up to us, came with an inches of hitting us like we were like, okay, that was strange and immediately gets out of the car and starts walking at us like kind of aggressively. And we're all like kind of taking steps back going. What the heck? Is this guy gonna do? And he opens his trunk, and he's like, throw your packs in here, and we were like, oh okay, that's fine. So, one of the hypers goes in the front seat and then I'm in one side of the back seat and another, I guess, any other back seat and then right in the middle of the back seat, is a enormous pitbull with a spiked chain collar growling at us. I mean, I level with my face, like, if you wanted to take a bite and it was rip my face off. So then this guy proceeds to drive like an absolute Maniac. I mean he's taking like mountain roads that are suggested 25, he's taking him at 50 and and he's, we passed the police officer and he flips the police officer off, and he starts talking about, and he starts talking about, all the drug delivery, he just made and how he's got 15 guns in the car. And we're just like none of us. Have said a word to each other but we've all made eye contact like Each one of us probably had her own Planet. All right? The Pitbull. And I'm gonna try, like grab the Pitbull to keep it away and he's gonna grab him. And So then we're like, maybe five miles from the trail and the guy. Years off the road up a dirt road and now I'm actually oh my God, he's actually probably gonna Rob us like this is bad and he pulls and he jams on the brakes and gets out of the car. We all get out of the car and we're like, can you just Pop the trunk? Thank you. Thank you. And we grab our backpacks and we were like, thanks to the right things. We don't even know where we are. We're still miles from the trail and he opens his arms. And he starts going seven years of conflict or Upon Us on July 27th. The moon starts like, saying these things like some prophecy of some sort and like the wars will be coming. And we're like, thanks, thanks, and we just ran away from him. So like that was definitely a scary shocking moment. Like no one ever told you about the weird hitches. You get, you know, when you're in the middle of the desert section of the Pacific Crest Trail, you know? And then the other hitches where the guy asked you in the set, you know, oh what's your name Darwin? Oh do you do meth?
Tayson: No.
Devin: No, but I'd love for you to drop me off right here. This is.
Dave: Yeah, I'm good. Yeah
Devin: those are like the weird. You know those are usually the weird weird things that happen.
Tayson: They're like dude, this is good business. This is how I get. Most my business is picking up weirdos on the side of the streets.
Devin: I am hitchhiking, you know, in the middle of Country. Anyways.
Tayson: Oh yeah, that's that's surprising. I I definitely would be nervous about climbing in the car with some of these people. But I mean that's that's why. I mean just just random side thing here. But do you, did you pack any form of like protection pepper? Spray mace? I mean that's always a debate. But
Devin: yeah, the gun debate is huge. If you go on any Forum, I mean people will get it. Yeah. They will get
Dave: that be more for protection from other humans or Wildlife.
Devin: I mean, it has to be the other humans. In terms of like, people getting attacked by Wildlife on these Trails, it's slim to none. I mean, you are, you know what the thing that's gonna bother you the most mice on the Appalachian Trail shelter, Meister crawl over you and they'll nibble through your pack. If you got food. Same thing will happen on the PCT. If you can't run wrong spot, mice will get your food. And that's Bears. Or I mean, you might see some the chances of getting attacked by an animal, or I don't even know of anyone who. I mean, there's always that one story you hear, you know, one every couple years, but it's such. It was the gun thing is for other people. I would assume that's why people bring them. I have never seen a gun on the trail, but I bet they're, they've been there. I've never seen a gun on any Trail, but I mean
Tayson: and, you know, like people that gets a huge debate and I, we don't have time. I mean, I don't want to get into that anyways. But I grew up as a hunter and I've and I have guns around guns. But personally like I feel like even just pepper spray is probably even more effective in close quarters, anyways, plus to bring it for animals, but yeah, I don't know my family. Like my family is like, if my brother is out there or some of my family like guaranteed, their concealing or packing but like me, I just don't have. I don't know if I have that fear. I think I've seen the good and people and right, I don't, I wouldn't worry about it. Sometimes these hitchhikers though, like that's a little more sketchy,
Devin: usually. The town people and all speak more to that. The, the trail itself is very safe. I mean, if you were to take the statistics of, you know, violence and sexual violence, or any type of crime that happens on the on these long distance trails and compare them to the average of the towns, it's significantly less. So if there's any problems usually, it's within town, you know, certain hikers will go into it and get drunk in a town bar and then they maybe they said something that insults someone in Georgia, like I heard of that happening and people got into a bar fight and Hiawassee Georgia, you know, but like the the gun thing for a through hiker it's you might have it. You might find someone who's a staunch Second Amendment supporter and they just don't want to carry because it's heavy, you know, it's
Dave: it's just a good point. It's
Devin: just extra weight.
Tayson: Yeah, that's what I'd be thinking about a lot about. Yeah,
Devin: it's just like well
Tayson: no that's I really enjoyed this conversation. We've gone over a ton of awesome stuff. I really wanted to just try to unpack especially that first hike. You you, I mean you've made a career out of out of being outdoors and So there's there's So much more we could unpack, but other couple of questions, I kind of wanted to wind down with, before we let you go. And like I said, there's, there's tons more. I know we can get into and hope we get that opportunity another day, but a lot of people that follow us are definitely, you know, gear oriented or or some of those types of things. So, one question I had written down is, you know, did you have any major gear fails on the trail? as there anything you could have done about that preemptive
Devin: Nothing, nothing catastrophically major but I did have okay, trekking poles on the Appalachian Trail. I broke probably Tips. Those trekking pole tips. I don't know if that's a me problem or if it was a lucky problem. But I never had a problem with my with my black diamond, trekking poles just breaking that often. I have used a number of cottage gear shops. and for the most part, pretty good, but certain Sleeping bag, like quilts that I've used, they've opened up, you know, stitching is opened up. And that's definitely, you know, when you only have Tenacious Tape to patch something in the middle of the night and you don't want to spill your down out. So you know, maybe and those were more budget. I went for the more budget route those times. Now I know to kind of go a little bit more quality oriented because if you're gonna go out for even a couple weeks, you know, you're going to put So much use on your on your gear. Oh, I know one, just jump, just came to me the Sawyer mini. I don't know if it was the desert. This is like the water filter that yeah, many water filter. I don't know if it was like the all the particulate in the desert water sources of the PCT, but after maybe two weeks to use it, it came, it was like 17 minutes to squeeze a single leader through that thing. It was Dripping, it was So slow, and that was brutal because those, you know, water sources out there and not the cleanest in the desert and you definitely want something to filter it. So, it was like, where am I gonna find a replacement? That was definitely
Dave: So did you switch to more of like a pump filter? Did you stay with that? I just went for this for the, for the squeeze. Not the
Devin: mini. You know, I just went for the slightly bigger than it was okay. It's been fantastic. And you'll find most people out there using the squeeze system. Anyway,
Tayson: I'm a big believer in that and I've never done anything, nearly as extreme but I have, I've had the mini, and it just man, it takes forever, but when you switch that squeeze the amount of water you can get through it as well, worth the extra ounce of weight or whatever.
Devin: Right, right. And
Dave: then, in terms of, I mean, in terms
Devin: of gear, I don't know if you call these fails but now you'll Go several pairs of shoes depending on what kind of shoes. You wear boots or Trail Runners. You know, you'll go. So what did you use on the PCT? I used New Balance Trail Runners and I went through four pairs but the fourth pair, I put, you know, 1000 miles on because I just wasn't willing to stop and wait for shoes to arrive with. I have size, 15 feet So it's always got to be ordered online and I just didn't wait. So I definitely finished in Canada with the worst looking shoes. You'll ever see. And then on the Appalachian Trail I actually used vast Breeze. Threes that's actually sponsored my Appalachian trail hikes So they gave me those and they Great. They're a bit heavier, you know, they're much heavier than Trail Runners but on the Appalachian Trail with all those rocks, you need a little bit more cushion. I when I eventually do the Continental Divide Trail in a couple years, I'll probably use Trail Runners again because the trail will just be that much softer less,
Dave: right? I just switched to Trail Runners. And So far I'm I'm liking them for the most part like out here like, in the desert. But I think I like to stick with with the trail Runners for the most popularly. It depends on where you're at and things like that.
Tayson: I found that the trail Runners are nicer for the West
Dave: Yeah. Yeah. And then being a taller guy. Do you have any gear issues with with that? So do you want to tell everybody how tall you actually are? So, yeah,
Devin: I'm six six about 240 pounds and I absolutely have a problem getting here, 100%. I mean every range shell, you know, the arms are too short, you know, and it's sleeping Pat. Everything weighs more for me, which is super annoying. Are always a little too short, you know, my, my Tops on my toes are always brushing against the curved to kind of Dome of the tent shoes, you know, are impossible to fly.
Dave: Yeah, I guess that's a challenge. I don't really think about what when you're out on the trail, especially if you need to get new shoes or new. Whatever jacket, or something like that? Well, it's more challenging.
Devin: Yeah, and also backpacks. So like, if you're gonna go the route of ultralight, a lot of these places, you know, they're large for their ultralight backpack. Just isn't long enough for someone like me. So there's a lot of options. I just can't I just can't use. And then also being a big guy too. I can't sleep on a little foam pad either. You know, I have to use an inflatable.
Dave: Yeah.
Tayson: And I feel like going back to that pack thing. A lot of the times, you know, it might adjust to your torso size but the frame isn't actually lifting the load like it should right. Maybe the frames only 21 inches and you're like, my torso is 21 inches. So there's no load lift or straps doing any good. So yeah, that one would almost be worse than the shelter system to me personally, like, if you're not getting that lift off your shoulders and putting it on your hips, that would be So uncomfortable after thousands of miles, right?
Devin: Right, absolutely, yeah. Well,
Tayson: that's all. I mean that's just phenomenal information. I'm I hopefully, you know, it's hard. It's hard to like being a company. It's definitely hard to Tailor to guys like you because you're kind of that that anomaly but I hope
Devin: we're outliers.
Tayson: Hi, I'm glad to hear that you've been able to, I mean, obviously, don't let people that are listening, don't let things like that, you know, slowly down. You can always find pieces of gear somewhere that are gonna work for you and just not a good excuse, but on that whole excuse side, you know, people that are listening to us a lot of the reasons they're listening to us, is they're trying to figure out, you know, how to get out and do more accomplished more Seymour, you know, live out their Adventures, you know? But having the same limitations as everyone, you know, time and money and experience. So you know, what is one thing? You feel like that allowed you to go and complete it through hike that you feel like are listeners need to hear or know, you know? Just like what's that one thing you're like, you know, this is the main reason. That I feel like holds other people back but I didn't let it hold me back.
Tayson: would. So would you say like someone like me, it sounded like you kind of tailored actually more towards the experience side. The mental side of this, this equation, obviously people know it's going to be Time and money. But, you know, for someone like me, let's say if you said, yeah, let's go out for seven days. I'd be like, yeah, let's go out for seven days, but it's go out for five months, I'd be like, well, that trips my mental trigger, you know, it. Do you think that people get hung up on that? Do you think that, that is a mental barrier, more than a physical barrier or something like that like to say to go past a week or to go past?
Dave: and and I guess we kind of missed this in the beginning, we didn't discuss it, but if you could tell the listeners a little bit, like what you do, as for a career and things like that, obviously, I know what you do. We work together and things like that, but if you can explain like if The everyday person listener is listening to this and they're kind of like, you know, that sounds great. But how is that feasible for someone? So if you can explain that a little bit in depth
Devin: Oh my God. Okay, I got a good one,
Tayson: that didn't take.
Dave: This is an interesting career path. Yeah,
Devin: So my my American adventure stories. So
