EP 67 - The KotaUL Deep Dive

Tayson: Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Live Ultralight podcast. Today we have a very special episode. I feel like I say that about every time, but this time, I really mean it because some of our most downloaded episodes that we ever do are about products and a specifically product, deep Dives, when we're launching a new product. And that's exactly what this podcast is. Today we are going to go deep on the design of the KotaUL backpack.

Tayson: Now, this backpack is launching on Kickstarter. It's on Kickstarter if you're hearing this right now and if you're hearing it later, you'll be able to still find it somewhere on our website. But Just coming out. So, there's a ton of talk about. There's There's just a lot here. So we've got Brigham our lead designer on the podcast. And we're going to be going way back in the archives of how this project started why we wanted to

Tayson: build it and then into all the intricacies of the pack. And I've been, you know, on weeks of before Kickstarter launches and stuff. I really get pulled heavily back into this and I've been reading through all of the content we have. I've been filming videos doing other things like that, and unfortunately, there's no possible way to go into the detail that we're about to go into on this podcast. On other platforms, we can just go deeper.

Tayson: You can talk about all these little tiny nuances that as I'm going through other platforms, like, man, I'd love to say this. Is not a time and not a good way so this is going to be the best way for you to know all of the little details that make the Cody. Well what it is and really that make the biggest difference on this pack. So right out of the gate, I thought it'd be a good

Tayson: thing Brigham to and to start with the name of the coda backpack because I think that gives us the premise of the whole pack. When it came to naming the coda, we had the whole team submitting ideas. And the idea that I actually submitted was Coda the KotaUL. Because to me from the very beginning, I had a dream for this pack and that dream was that I would have the ability to do trips such as

Tayson: the one. I'm up to describe I lived in Malaysia for a while and in Malaysia there is a mountain called mount kodaka in And mount Kodak in a bottle is, is an area that I would love to fly basically fly into Malaysia and then go do this, backpacking trip. You typically are spending a night on the mountain and then coming back off so that you can be at the top right there in the morning when you

Tayson: have the best vantage points and so on, so forth. And that trip was like, that would be the perfect scenario because all these other packs out there that I've ever used. Can't fill that need. They're either a backpacking backpack that has a bunch of straps doesn't look that professional. Usually don't fit carry on standards and just they're just not the best to actually do the travel portion, say, through airports or cars in and out of Uber's

Tayson: or whatever it is, they're not the best for that. And then the other alternative is, I've had a variety of travel backpacks, and these travel backpacks are not, they're just not billed for that application either. Usually, they're organization is built wrong. They don't have and the biggest absolute biggest one for sure. Is their frames and hit belts and, and basically suspension systems, I guess if you wrap them all into one, They're not not ideal for this

Tayson: type of scenario and if you're going to be backpacking all day with that thing you will hate life by the end of it. I can promise you that as someone who's spent has spent thousands of dollars on travel bags and thousands of dollars on backpacks and tested. A lot, this is a real need. So anyways, back to back to that original thing. I proposed the name Coda ul and it got adopted by the team kind of

Tayson: voted on as the one that they liked, but the idea is that the KotaUL was designed to go and Hike something like mountain of allu, So that's where we get this weird name, but also, that is kind of the premise of this backpack. It's something you can take terminal to Trail. It's something that you could do like our Seattle trip this year, where you fly in to an airport, rent a car going to backpacking trip,

Tayson: then hop Airbnb to Airbnb. Do day hikes, and all sorts of different varieties of travel. It's really a piece built to do that and and that's what makes it so magical is there really isn't very many pieces out there that even attempt to do this, right? And the ones that we have that are out there. We've tested used and didn't meet what we want it. So where I'd like to kind of move in here to the

Tayson: IDS of the product. So a while ago before actually Brigham was here, this was on our design board, this is something I wanted to be building and it was something that I was currently testing product for so, A lot of history in what we wanted to build. And I think that's something that I just I wanted to hit right up front is just a big pat on the back to you. Brigham is you really took like

Tayson: this idea that I had had for a long time and turned it into a product, but honestly checked every box and then did more beyond that. So big pat on the back to you, but when I first brought this product to you, What do you remember as far as me or like, what were the premises of what we wanted to build? What we're like the three or the biggest IDs that were like, hey, this needs to

Tayson: be in the pack and these are the differentiators that we need to meet. If we're going to design the product we want.

Brigham: Yeah. These may not be the ones that you're looking for but just something because there's a lot that goes into it. But there like some of the main things are addressing like what are the inadequacies that you found in the existing product offerings, right? Like, like all the packs that you you bought and tested, like what, you know, what were the pain points are? Like, what made those packs like kind of

Brigham: contribute to like frustration or discomfort or pain when you use them for travel. So that like generated a lot of the like the momentum, or like, the direction that we needed to go is like, well, If we look at, for example, pack a and it has these features and these characteristics and it's horribly uncomfortable. Like what is it about that? That makes it uncomfortable and we looked at a lot of those things. So basically a lot

Brigham: of the common themes are Travel packs that are built to be more like a luggage piece or that work carrying in your hand. And then they have a novelty, or a token set of shoulder straps or a token hip belt. That when you actually try to use those features, they generally suck, like they just are inadequate for what you're trying to do, which is just get through like the transit process comfortably. So whether that's you know,

Brigham: when you do feel like you want to have both your hands available so you want to put your piece of luggage on your back. then it becomes very uncomfortable and the common areas of that occurs are the suspension system and then what's directly connected to that is any kind of support system for the suspension. So what we found is like a lot of these travel packs. Are just flimsy, they

Brigham: it doesn't matter how thick a foam you put in the shoulder straps, if that pack is designed to be a suitcase with straps, and it doesn't have any kind of like support system or stability, And its flimsy. When you load that up with all the things you need to travel with it, barrels out, you know? it it it's not stable and it is incredibly uncomfortable to to wear like what if you get to the airport at

Brigham: a busy time when you're in line for 45 minutes to an hour,

Tayson: just happened to me or what if you

Brigham: What if you don't live someplace where you it's practical to own a car. So then you have to go from like a bus system to a train system to the airport system, and then you reverse that at your destination and then when you get home. So, so we're

Tayson: gonna talk about Comfort because it is like one of the biggest things. And, and pardon me, I'm gonna crack this open here in a long week, and I've been pulling some late nighters, and I need a little energy. That's not normal for me, but it's gonna be a long episode. So, we're gonna need this because there's so much to cover. We're gonna dive deep into the comfort. For sure, some of the other things like high-level really

Tayson: quick, though, that this product needed to tackle in my mind and like, the biggest one that just drove me bonkers? Like right away, hated the pack almost was forced organization. And basically packs that did one thing. Well, but nothing else, well, or if you didn't, like, the way that like it loaded or carried certain things, then it was like garbage, right? Like like the clamshell opening, right? If you don't load that a certain way or if

Tayson: it's not full, like if it's half, empty, looks like crap. So that was like a big one is in order for this to do what we needed in needed to be super versatile because every trip is different. I take this pack traveling International with my family. I've taken this pack on like a weekend with my wife out to Montana. I've taken this pack. Backpacking, I take this backpack bag to Seattle for backpacking on the trail and

Tayson: other types of travel. I take it to the gym every single day. I do a lot with this tag and these other packs that I've used. Absolutely. I mean, he's stronger here but they suck. You don't use them the way they want. So that was a big portion that we wanted to build into this as well. Wait, some of these packs that we have are six, plus sometimes, you know, up to seven or eight pounds, that

Tayson: is like as much as I want the packed away almost loaded, you know what I mean? Like I want that pack to be closer to 10 pounds total and so if you're starting with the weight that high, that's a major thing that's kind of a high level consideration that we had what other like real high-level ones did. I not touched on? Those are like the big ones that I know for sure were like, they're big enough

Tayson: problems and stuff, that we're like, we've got to build

Tayson: a pack around this. But there's so many more that are hard to know. Like, if they're like a tier one concern or tier two, because we attacked so many different things. As we went through the whole pack, but I wanted to kind of cut you off there because I did want to just make sure that we have Like those high level things that makes this pack different is, it's massively comfortable, super versatile. And and even though

Tayson: it's versatile and has organization options, the weight is is very low and still gives you all of the benefits of a travel bag, meaning like way less straps, grab handles all over it, things like that, but it also gives you the Comfort or the stability and what not of a backpacking backpack. So, I think that's kind of the high level overview, but I do want to go back to comfort because there's so much to dive into

Tayson: here. Particularly before we get into all of the cool organization, we did the materials we did. And I just feel like I just want, I would like to tackle that first. So that's what you were saying when we actually did. Like, I knew it was a problem. I knew it was a problem for sure already, but with the marketing team, a little while back, when we started to launch ads, I went and read hundreds of reviews

Tayson: of these other travel packs out there, and it was crazy, how consistent it was that people complained about the hit belts on these packs. I mean, they were like, what is this one inch webbing? Like that's not a hit belt, like, it just digs into you. And, and a lot of them have like, weird classes on the didn't even work or you couldn't tighten them properly, like they didn't pull correctly, or you had to be in

Tayson: a certain angle and it all attribute that to like the comfort of the pack. So I want to take that a step farther because it's easier to say like my hippo sucks. But really A lot of times if you feel back, one more layer, what they're hoping for is that they hit belt will carry load. And most of that is also enabled by having the right frame in it too. So the two that you know, two

Tayson: of the major things that we tackled was having a full size, then you might hear me moving around on here. And Joseph has stopped this backwards. I had this out before, but we have a full sized hip belt here, right? That's not a one inch it belt. It's probably what closer to four the biggest, you know, chunk like the widest. Yeah,

Tayson: it's adjustable, has more dense foam in here for comfort. And then the pull system on it is an easy pull system with offset, webbing pieces, and that offset webbing also just makes it. So, there's not one single strap cutting into the front part of your, of your belly, which is something that we really like, but The fact, like people people, I think think that the hit belt is what's also just carrying on load and it does

Tayson: carry load even without a frame. Right? But then, when you add in the frame aspect, because that's like the underlying problem, that I think they weren't voicing quite right in some of these reviews, when you add in a proper frame, proper height and load lifters. That's the whole package to me. So we looked at a lot of options in the beginning, Brigham with the frame. We looked at different ways to optimize the frame, play around with

Tayson: the frame to see, just what we could do. And essentially, what we ended on is saying, what is just the maximum size of frame that will fit a carry on. Yeah, I'm most. And again, maybe we should just clamor this too. Every airline has their own carry-on sizes. Almost all of them are within like half an inch in different areas. So this will fit, most carry on requirements is how we say it. All though, I'd be

Tayson: willing to bet that you'll never have issue with that ever, just as a thought. So, we took That the parameters that were out there and we built the frame to be the biggest it possibly could to fit in that. And why is it important that the frame is big? I guess. Brigham to put that in the word for people. So

Brigham: by big he means tall. How tall the frame is so it has to be tall enough that For most people, the highest point of the frame is higher than the highest point of your shoulders. So that when you put a load lifter webbing at the highest point of the frame and you pull on the load lifter webbing, it actually takes some of the pressure off the top of your shoulders. So that's called load lift. And that

Brigham: also is what transfers? The weight? That the pack is carrying transfers it down to your hips because it's not resting so much on the top of your shoulders. Now it's being transferred via that frame to be carried on your hips. So that's how the frame height comes into play. And, and our

Tayson: frame. Is a aluminum frame. It's got two rods. I mean connected. It's a single piece but it basically, two robs go down, two sides of it with a connection across the top. One of the things that I saw at times was single state, like a single frame piece in the travel bags. Which I bent. Frequently and I don't think Ben's Once Upon over and over because it just couldn't handle it. Plus, if you guys a single

Tayson: day you can't put it right? Where the load lifters are connecting, which is a part of transferring that load off of your shoulders and down to your hips, and then other packs that I had didn't have a frame at all. They called it a frame but it's

Brigham: Plastic sheet and I just to clarify by when he's talking about the frame, it's it's an internal frame. So don't you're not picturing. If you're just listening, you're, you're not, we're not talking about like an exposed. Metal frame. That's on the outside of the of the pack. It's an internal frame that you would never even know is there. If we didn't tell you where to look

Tayson: correct, right? So, We've got a big hit belt. That's tuckable you can talk about the back panel or you can fully remove it. The hip belt also adjusts width by a little bit about an inch and a half if you can actually overlap this. I've never, I haven't owned a backpack or seen this done before. This is something we came up with, Am I Wrong bringing him and saying that, there's not many hit belts that just

Tayson: like that. There's not many is there.

Brigham: I don't know if I could make the claim that nobody else does it but there's it's very uncommon.

Tayson: Yeah, I really like this because a part of making a hippo. Comfortable is having a size appropriately. This gives you a little bit more sizing options with this and then it is all. So fully removable. So those that might be watching this Which, by the way, this, this will make it onto our Live Ultralight podcast YouTube channel. So, if you want to go, subscribe to that. You can see Are smiling faces here. Well, my smiling face

Tayson: is Brigham's, courtesy, smoke know, I can. Um, anyway, so we've got the hip belt. We've got a frame now, a full size frame that fits carry on standards and then we optimized it. One of the big things is that we made it so that the hip belt can really get as low on the pack as possible. that helps as well with some of that load carry and then we've got Load. Lifters attached to the shoulder harnesses.

Tayson: Now those load, lifters are functioning. You'll see that there is actually a gap between where these are connecting and the load lifters. And when you put that on, you can get that frame to sit above your shoulders, which then is where you actually get the load lift. Last thing, I would say to cover in the suspension area is just the shoulder straps or heart, you know, the shoulder strapping system, there's a sternum strap. We're using, I

Tayson: don't know how much I'm trying to remember how much different Foams we had to play with but we've got contoured shoulder strap or shoulders straps.

Brigham: Yeah they are. They are contoured and and curved and then we did play with

Tayson: varying densities and thicknesses of

Brigham: foam and then found a combination that we all so perforate the foam. So the bunch of holes punched through it and that comes up with a great combination of like kind of softness and playability with enough rigidity without Flimsy and kind of feeling useless. So, Yeah, maybe that's, that could be something we talk about now, or later. It's just like you use the word optimize admitted to go because there was A lot of optimization that we

Brigham: had to do with this pack, with the goals that we had from the get-go. So,

Tayson: Yeah. I mean, maybe before we dive into that, we just round off with that kind of lines out the harness system. Now, these are like the shoulder straps here. They've got quick clips, so you can easily, you know, disconnect, those and Tuck those straps in there. If you want to carry it, like suitcase, style, onto a plane, loaded in and out of your car and out of an Airbnb or a hotel. You can easily maneuver this

Tayson: tuck things in because there aren't any extra shops on this. We don't have exterior

Brigham: compression straps, which that was, that was another kind of early on parameter that we want to meet was. We didn't want a lot of Xperia webbing just stuff that's going to be flopping around and getting snagged on things

Tayson: on catching on your car seats on your airplane seats. Or if you ever, you know, throwing it on a cart or something like that, loading it overhead. Those straps become

Brigham: a nuisance, pretty quick. The probably the last thing with the suspension would be the back panel like the back. So yeah,

Brigham: that I mean, that's again kind of designed with a lot of requirements in mind. But again, like for the comfort, you know, we use like a spacer. A spacer mesh on the outside. It's called a triangle foam. It's basically a ridged foam,

Tayson: you might be able to hear this, but that is me feeling the triangle underneath that spacer mesh for

Brigham: reality and breathability comfort. Kind of that again that right balance of softness. With the foam.

Tayson: Yeah. So really what that equates to is? And I think I've actually said this on a podcast beforehand is I mean the easiest one, probably because it was the last time I used a really uncomfortable pack was when we were coming back from Vietnam, we had a week's worth of stuff in our packs and then we loaded up on a bunch of samples of stuff, we studied in our bags, in our bags, were incredibly full and

Tayson: Incredibly heavy. And I was so uncomfortable in the airport that I mean I was pulling on and off the waist strap. I was I was adjusting the straps constantly. I was carrying it in my hand and it just stuck off me like a turtle shell. And my shoulders were killing me. And and Then like when I do the waist strap it like and this is kind of like vayne almost but like, because it's a single, like

Tayson: wedding strap, that was like a one inch webbing strap for most of that, just like cuts into your gut and like, makes you look fat. Like, you just punch out over it and it doesn't actually help and it cuts into your, your skin almost. It was it incredibly uncomfortable experience compared that to one of the last trips I did, where I went up to Montana and we I think they had to cancel some flights that day

Tayson: before so that this little Montana airport was Slammed. Stand in line with my backpack for an hour just to get through security and I had stuff in there for fly fishing for the trip itself. The pack wasn't loaded nearly as heavy but like I could stand there for an hour, totally comfortable with the pack on Without weighing down my shoulders without it cutting into my hips or anything. So just a totally different experience and I feel

Tayson: like we absolutely nailed that in fact at some point about to Brigham on. But there's members of our team that will even Say that they, they, that are back on backpacking trips with this. That'll claim that this is more comfortable to them. Maybe he's in the Shadowlight, which is crazy, because that's an incredibly comfortable pack. So it's one of the biggest points of feedback we get is how comfortable the Shadowlight is and it's

Tayson: built just for backpacking and carrying heavy loads. But it is, it is that comfortable that we backpack with this back, do multi-day trips with this bag. and it carries those loads like a backpack, should so, That's that's like to round that out. It's it's just a massive upgrade to the overall comfort of a backpack. And you may think, oh, it's not that big of a deal, trust me. It is a big deal when you are not.

Tayson: Just taking it from, say your house, to a car when you are actually going through airports, if you ever have to get on a train to go somewhere, if you ever have to, you know, do anything other than like a 10 minute walk, you will really appreciate the benefits of that packs and it's comfort. So So, okay, I think that kind of rounds out the Comfort aspect of it for now, from here, I feel like we

Tayson: could go in a bunch of different directions. We could go into the organization, we could go into the weight, the fabrics and maybe maybe go to the Fabrics. Next Just because that is kind of base level as well before we get into more of these, these nuances of the pack. So yeah.

Brigham: Yeah, we could we could start covering materials. I like there is probably a little bit more. Philosophy that we could cover in terms of like yeah, the top process of material. Well, so we started talking about this for a minute early on was like, Okay. A lot of the travel packs out there, they're they're designed to just be a piece of luggage and then, so they they kind of work pretty well as a piece of luggage,

Brigham: you know, just like a duffel bag or a suitcase, they are designed to work that way and they work pretty well at

Tayson: it. And some of them have like the past through, right? For like, putting on your luggage, right? Right. So you can, you know, put it over

Brigham: the handle on your on your check-in

Tayson: shows, you how they're thinking of the pack, right? So,

Brigham: When I say they work pretty well like there's still we have found even deficiencies there, like with the forced organization or like they've designed the pack to to work just one way really as a suitcase. So we Kind of the design intent was, we wanted to design something, a travel pack that worked just as well, if not better than any of those other packs that are designed more to function like luggage. So it had to function

Brigham: like a luggage piece. Like successfully, right? It has to work as a luggage piece successfully. However, The other half of it is that it has to function as a backpacking pack, just as well as a functions, as a luggage piece, and not like in a pinch, meaning it has to function.

Brigham: As well as a backpacking pack that there are people that would just choose to take it backpacking. Just as a backpacking pack. So that was like, what we set out to achieve, was it has to be a great suitcase or piece of luggage, but it has to be a great backpack that is comfortable in all situations. So that's where a lot of the options came in where, like, when we were talking about the hip belt, they

Brigham: have built, this didn't end up being the dimensions and thickness and adjustability that it is, that that was, I mean, I would say that again, the word optimized to Be a certain size that you could put it away and hide it away and nobody knows it's there. But then when you actually use it because you need to use it, that it isn't just barely adequate, it's like, substantially comfortable, and noticeably comfortable. And so that that philosophy

Brigham: of basically, you know, we were we focus very heavily on backpacking and so we have a lot of experience with what makes things comfortable for backpacking. And so, we're able to basically just apply a lot of that into a piece of luggage, which almost just, it's just, seems like a no-brainer, like, why not do that?

Tayson: Just do that. You know, so,

Brigham: that's kind of the philosophy of how we did that. And then just optimizing. You know what or identifying? Well, what are the things that make a travel pack work? Well what are the things that make it? Obnoxious like straps all over the place that are getting caught

Tayson: in the overhead compartment or getting or like like it's not like kind of had to be more of a square shape,

Tayson: right? Yeah. Like like some of these guys. Like if I know you've seen him, like they look like a Backpacker in an airport or something and you're you look at that and you're like, yeah, that's not carry on approved. How are they getting that? You know, specially when it's like, I always crack up but this one last time I was flying to Alaska. This girl had a hunting pack on Massive had probably a 30 to 40

Tayson: liter size sleeping bag attached to the bag. I mean this pack was almost as tall as she was, and I'm like, looking at like, holy crap one, that looks miserable. How did you go through security with that? You know, how many times to distracts get stuck on the security like trolley that rolls it through to, you know, and then how are you gonna load it in the plane and it just looked like such a hassle that's

Tayson: kind of what we're talking about. Like so the pack needed to be more squared. You need to kind of sit on its own little things like that. That make a difference when you're

Brigham: traveling. Yeah for sure and I just kind of thought of like maybe I'll just paint this picture because you know, hopefully there's people listening to this that are interested in the pack that maybe aren't even Backpackers. So a lot of maybe what we're talking about is hard for them to relate to, but let me paint this other scenario. a few years ago, my wife and I went to the UK on vacation, we're there about 10 days

Brigham: and we From the airport, like London is a huge city, right? And there's subway system, and there's a bus system. Well, from the airport to where our Airbnb was like, I don't know how

Tayson: far it was but it took us.

Brigham: over an hour of walking, from place to place, to place, or transit to Transit, and like, we're for that trip, like we were like, Dragging one piece of luggage on London streets, which are mostly. They're very similar to like Cobblestone. Like they're not smoothly. Paved. Yeah. It's, they're mostly made of like rough, cut stone. So, that's an idea that's not ideal. And then, just kind of using this.

Brigham: I don't even know what the backpack was for the carry-on, but straps, hanging all over the place. And so, that is a scenario where now, I basically found myself in an urban hike, right? Like, the amount of time we were walking around the Streets of London, I could have hiked four miles, like, that's not uncommon. So, To somebody that's not a Backpacker thinking. Well, how does all this backpacking? Talk relate? That's how it relates a few

Brigham: years before that we flew into Venice in the middle of the night. And I wanted I was doing the one bag travel and I was using a giant lumbar pack.

Tayson: And I had a brand. What do you mean lumbar like a fan? Like a glorified giant Fanny. Man. Right now. Mountain Smith.

Brigham: Yeah. Okay, all my stuff in there and it was August. It was like hot and humid in Venice Italy and we're like, navigating the streets for like two hours walking around. So there's another Urban hike where I was not using an optimal, Luggage system, right? You know. So I hope, you know, maybe that makes things a little bit more relatable for the non, you know. Backpacking time I

Tayson: can think of two right off top of my head as well. Um, one me and my wife were going to go on a cruise up to Alaska. And we went through in the Seattle and we, you know, we took a taxi to the airport and then excuse me to our to a hotel. The next day we got on the cruise ship, that was fine. But getting on the cruise ship, you have to stand there with your

Tayson: luggage or navigating through cones and around that and that's a little process. But getting off we decided to take public transit back. We had plenty of time so there was no need to to rush anything. And so we ended up walking around some of the streets in downtown Seattle and then getting on a train but it sounded easy, sounded fun, right? It wasn't even that far. But I had a backpack at that point that did not

Tayson: have this tall of a frame. It wasn't fit for my torso. It was the biggest thing. It actually was a backpacking backpack, but it didn't fit my torso, right? I was typically like a 60 liter and a certain size horse on. I had a bag that was like a little smaller 45 leader in that and it was stuffed full, right? Um, my wife has since I've done a fantastic job at realizing, she doesn't need as many

Tayson: shoes, and she's like, that. And I also was packing books and notebooks and electronics, which were all super heavy. So, The backpack is killing me. We're walking around the streets and I've got rolling luggage and Everywhere You Go. I mean, it's just the fact of the matter, I feel like no matter where you're at, almost sidewalks suck. Potholes. Everywhere. There's water, at least in Seattle. There's water in every pothole, so you try not to dunk your

Tayson: bag through it and you know what was supposed to be like this? Nice leisurely walk around downtown Seattle. Before we hopped on a train, went to the airport turned into this like incredibly painful scenario for me, at least because I was, I was trying to carry most of the stuff terrible, terrible scenario. Another time I'm in Shanghai going to Nanjing in China and spend some time over there and It was like a like a tiny flight

Tayson: to get into Shanghai or Shanghai where all the fights go out of or I could take a train. Well the train for whatever reason, only went so far so I hop on a train, I go through that transit system and then I get off. And then I have to walk around this train station and find a way to get to the airport. They're supposed to be a bus. I can't find the bus from walking in circles.

Tayson: I finally Google translate a message is her holding up the people they find me the bus which is really nice but in that whole process I'm just walking around in circles. With at that point, I had a different travel bag. That. that I was anyways and it and it again was just super uncomfortable to hit belt is non-existent just Worked like crap and then the bag itself looked like crap because I didn't have a completely full

Tayson: and when it's not completely full it was this baggie carcass on my back like it doesn't have any shape form look. But anyways, like like very quickly even even stuff where you're just flying in going to hotel to hotel, I wasn't backpacking on that. I wasn't even traveling, really? I was mainly going and meeting business partners and stuff out there, but even in a certain like that, like sometimes you just need to use different Transit, then

Tayson: then the typical taxi or straight into an airport. So there's always going to be room for something like this. And that's the whole appeal to one bag. Travel Is. Your light and your free and your fast. If you can travel with one bag, it makes travel easier. So anyways we totally here but it

Tayson: is important because that's what it's going through. Our heads is where designing this pack is. It's got to check these boxes and become the bag. That's all these problems for us so that we really can have like this one tool that just Enables us to do so many trips around the whole world. Yeah, for sure.

Tayson: Okay. Off the soapbox here for a second. What do we want to tackle? I mean, where there's so many for those of you that don't know, backpacks are incredibly complicated and it's I when I look at this backpack, I almost feel like I'm looking at. Just art even the packs. We are kind of negatively talking about there are in their own way and the designers are likely building them with different parameters and thoughts in mind. But

Tayson: man, backpacks are complicated because there's hundreds of pieces getting sewn into this bag. Might look at a bag and think, oh, it's pretty simple, but even the most simple bags, there are so many pieces, so many patterns that go into it. So, when we look at that, when I look at this, I'm like, where do you start? It almost feels overwhelming because there's just so much in this back. So what do you think? Very what are we start?

Brigham: Well, I, you know, maybe we can kind of flow into, you know, materials and materials selection and kind of what, like, what what do we base? Those decisions on which, one of the things we mentioned early on was like the weight of back. We didn't want to have a heavy pack work. You know, we kind of focus on like the ultralight backpacking, right. So again we're kind of taking our heritage and and what we do

Brigham: and putting it into this travel pack. So, To me, it just doesn't make any sense to start with a backpack that weighs like five to seven pounds. Yeah. Like that's, yeah,

Brigham: my entire clothes for a trip. Could be three pounds. So, you know, we wanted the backpack to be very lightweight and if we could make it lighter than any other travel pack out there then that would be great, but it still has to meet all the rest of the requirements. So that's to be comfortable has to be durable, enough has to be Intuitive and have organization that people can use or choose not to use. So, you

Brigham: know, we went into material selection and To achieve a strong yet lightweight. Main fabric, we just kind of went to what we have. A lot of confidence on in already, which is You know, a nylon. Base fabric with a with a spectre ripstop grid. The Spectre makes the the fabric as a whole. Very, very strong and abrasion resistance. So we use as the main fabric, it's a 210 year nylon with a 400 denier.

Tayson: For a grid. So the rip stop is Spectrum fibers that are thicker

Brigham: a bigger thickness than the base fabric.

Tayson: And as you're looking at this, you're looking on the video, you'll see it almost is like a, like a honeycomb type filling. And if you rub your hand across, it has a texture because that that Specter rises above it, because it's that thicker material. Which like Brigham said. it has a couple functions one like if you did somehow like, Damage your pack, right? Like that ripstop is there to keep it from spreading right?

Tayson: Which we've seen there's some I think we've got some footage out there where we've seen it on the Shadowlight when we are overstressing. The Shadowlight with rocks and having races. And the nylon peeled away where McLean fell and scraped the cross. Yes cement and The Specter was intact the backpack. I still use it to this day. The other thing though is like, if this is scraping across something that honeycomb can also help to take

Tayson: the abrasion off of the lighter weight Fabrics underneath it. But what it equates to is a very, very strong, very capable fabric. That doesn't need to be 1,000 D Cordura that weighs four times the amount of this, right?

Brigham: Yeah, and all. So it stays consistent with the philosophy of the backpack is like, this is not a check on a check in back. Like we want people to feel free and light and fast. We won't be able to the one thing they carry on to the plane and putting the overhead compartment or the over, you know, on a bus or a train and just go So it it totally exceeds the durability requirement for that and

Brigham: it just keeps the the overall weight of the backpack. Very, very light.

Tayson: Yes. Yeah. I mean, the bag weighs in at two pounds, is it

Brigham: 1302? Yeah. Two pounds and 13 ounces.

Tayson: So, which is Daniel like an ultralight level back for backpacking, but with the amount of additional compartments and storage and all the things we put into this, that's crazy exception. Like, when you really think about like, the Shadowlight pack or satellite packet 2 pounds. You know, this being only 13 Oz have here. You're like has a heavier fabric, grab handles everywhere, extra Pockets, extra zippers mesh, internal organizers. I mean, that that isn't incredible feat. I mean, I, yeah,

Tayson: yeah, I do feel like

Brigham: I, you know, I can confidently say like people should not be. Concerned about the way because like this thing is robustly built. like the backpack. There's strategically placed padding inside. So

Tayson: certain panels are padded with emails. One of the things we had to face down, right? Is some a lot of these packs travel packs. Shove foam, in every crevice of the pack for it to look good or have structure, right? So it's like that was something that we had to face in design. Is we do want the pack to look good, but we don't want to just shove foam everywhere. Just A foam everywhere, right? Like, it

Tayson: needs to have real features and a function, which I really like what we ended up with, which is the bottom is has foam. So if you were to miss the laptop sleeve or have something in here as you're setting it down, there is there is foam across the bottom, obviously the padded laptop sleeves. There's foam there and then we ended up putting foam right in this outside pocket. That has a drop pocket. It's really good for

Tayson: like an iPad and that's like the one area too that it does make the pack look a little bit better but it's still super functional. Like we didn't just put it there just for looking either even though it does help with the look of the pack and keep making it look you know, more full and whatnot. But the whole idea is that's a great lap top sleeve and it does keep structure to use that pocket a

Tayson: little bit better and and so on and so forth. But that keeps the pack super light and super functional. Like, it really has the padding everywhere that it needs the padding.

Brigham: Yeah. Yeah we wanted padding to protect things that are The most likely to need protection or the like if you set it down like you can stand the bag up on the bottom, it'll just stand there and the bottoms padded same thing like if the pack happens to fall backwards

Tayson: like you know, that that pocket is padded and then obviously the part that faces your back is padded as well. Right. Okay, that's materials. Do we want to talk Hardware? Do we want to kind of like open up the pack? We can Breeze through Hardware real quick. I mean, we're

Brigham: not going to skimp on anything so we use, you know, all the reflect plastic Hardware, YKK, zippers. And and the highest quality Foams that are available. So I think

Tayson: like the biggest so everything is to reflect and YKK. I think the biggest thing that that adds to this pack are these duroflex Gatekeepers. So there's I'm playing with one that's on the load lifter strap right now but

Tayson: this is an incredibly durable. Incredibly strong system that allows you to be modular with it. So we have tabs all over the backpack that enable you to use for included accessory, straps to strap things to the outside of the pack, to the inside of the pack. And then we've used them in the design itself is well, but that's a piece of Hardware that you're going to want to look at yourself. If you've never seen these because

Tayson: it enabled us to do a lot. So, when we went to Olympic we just drop a bear canister to the outside of the pack, no problem. When we've been backpacking and we have tripods for filming or whatever you can, you can use those to attach the tripod and have it run out of the pocket. And but that's a piece of Hardware, that, that honestly makes this pack so much better and creates so much modularity and usefulness.

Tayson: So, that was kind of the main Hardware piece that I really wanted to pinpoint. Other than just all of the components are a Duraflex. Of high quality component.

Brigham: Yeah. Yeah. The reasoning for having those shoulder straps disconnectable is so you can you can really easily and cleanly. Tuck the straps away so there's no exposed webbing whatsoever. They'll tuck away. So the shoulder straps disconnect at the bottom of the pack and at the top. So that shoulder strap, tucks away. And so maybe two two inches of the actual shoulder strap. The padded section is even visible. So just keeps it really clean and makes it

Brigham: really fast and easy to Up that way. Yeah.

Tayson: So, let's, let's move into the main compartment mainly because the another massive concern that we had with this pack and other packs. Was the fact of like four-star organization and and like, sometimes if the pack isn't full, it looks like crap and and just doesn't and the load inside of it became floppy. So it wasn't sure anymore is a few things there. So if I open this pack up, first off, the first thing that's really neat

Tayson: about this pack in the I love is it's got a massive horseshoe zipper. If you just undo the very top section, you can flip over. I won't call it a lid because it's not detachable, but it's like the A lid, like structure. And I can get into my laptop or I can load the bag from the Top. If I just want to be setting things in straight from the top of this bag. But as we know

Tayson: with travel, it can be super handy to be able to fully open your your bag. See everything that's in there and organize it. And that way, which is why this horseshoe zipper extends, the length of the pack and goes all the way down to the bottom. And then you can flip this all the way over. Inside of this main compartment, it can load just like say duffel bag. Like there's no pocketing that you have to use.

Tayson: So if you want to just have this Massive main compartment that I believe, is 37 liters. Yeah, there's a leaders you've got One big pocket. That's 37 liters. So that just gives you a variety of options of what you want to pack. For instance, when I went to Mexico, I had to pack life jackets and puddle jumpers, I guess those things that go on your arms, you know, and wrap around their chests because we were going

Tayson: down there to this Resort and my kids, both wear life jackets at all times. And so I use one of our accessories to pack those down and but I needed I needed this space and if it had been another pack that forced me to organize another way, am I just been two bulky of an item to fit in my backpack and then and then what? Like there's not good options after that. So having this big massive

Tayson: compartment is really handy, and other use case scenario. Is when we went to Olympic, I got a pack of sleeping bag. I had all the top quilt, a tent and had all in here and it needed to be big enough to fit those. You can't like, separate, cut a top quilt and separated into Pockets, right? So that's where this use case really comes into play, but then we, you know, we all still want. To have organization

Tayson: options because sometimes you need an extra pair of shoes. So I'm bringing sandals, sometimes you're bringing dress shoes, whatever it is. Or sometimes you want to separate laundry. Want to keep my socks and underwear over here and and so that they're not floating around the back so much because they're small right items. And that's where some of this additional pocketing comes into play. So what do we do for that Brigham? Like what?

Brigham: Well, we wanted to maintain the big open. Section of the main compartment. But we wanted any pocketing that we added to not really be in the way we want it to be substantial. Very useful and intuitive. So, people kind of just use it, however, their their eyes kind of lead them to, but if you don't use it, it's not in the way at all. Like, it just doesn't even take up space, but we wanted some good

Brigham: options, so We have these long side pockets on on the inside. There are at least 12 inches long. Yeah, I mean, this one

Tayson: extends, basically, from the tips of my fingers, almost to my elbow. Yeah, drops down that

Brigham: farther about three quarters height of the whole pack. I would say.

Tayson: Yeah. So 17. 18 inches.

Brigham: Yeah. Deep. Yep. So one of those on each side, those are open on the top. So they're really easy to just kind of slide things down in there or drop things in there and they stay put and those pockets, they just are right up against the side panel of the backpack. So they're out of the way and those are a stretch mesh so you can kind of see into the pocket to see what's there. They do

Brigham: stretch. So if you're putting something bulky in there it will stretch to

Tayson: accommodate that. There's a lot of stretch in them and we've done a different color on the inside as well. So it's a more high contrast color. So just like you said, you can really see what's inside that mesh because on the backside of it is a very as a lighter color.

Brigham: Yeah. Um, Yeah. So those are actually really useful and and I find like everybody uses them a different way or for like a different thing. Like I like my thing is to put socks in them because like a rolled up pair of socks they just stack up really nicely in there but there's not like like I said, everybody comes to use them a different way.

Tayson: When I took this to Montana I took And Kara, fly fishing rod. Yeah, drop it right down the side. And it was like, it was like, it was gone. It's

Tayson: like just stay right there and I

Tayson: could pack all around it easy? Yeah,

Tayson: yeah. In fact, probably a lot of

Brigham: I would, I think, a lot of four piece fly rods, and the case would fit in there. yeah, so those there's one on each side on the inside and then we on the We put this big stretch mesh pocket with a zipper on the kind of the main panel

Tayson: that the closest the packs. So it's like the inside face of the main. So, like picture of the laptops on a backpacking that the opposite that. Yeah.

Brigham: That is a very substantial. Pocket like it has a ton of volume built into it.

Tayson: And it's depleted volume so it's still, it's still hugs. The pack, when not in use, like if you're not going to use it, but I bet I would be willing to bet money. You'll use it to me. It's like the money pocket in here. Like it's the best one. You know, you can fit a full pair of shoes in there. Actually fit sandals on the side, drop pockets as well. Like we have to Mexico, I put

Tayson: my sandals in that but I say she's in here or a ton of clothing that I want to stay organized. But At that Pockets, like the money,

Brigham: it really is. And like the it's it's stretch mesh intentionally because the thinking was well, what if somebody wants to use that for their dirty clothes, like you put your whole Trip's worth of dirty clothes in there and then they're separated from everything else. But there but it's a stretch. So it's also going to kind of breathe well, and, and help prevent some some odor buildup. If you're really lazy and you just keep wet dirty nasty clothes

Tayson: 10 days. But yeah, there's a zipper at the top of that. That's a really useful, really useful pocket

Brigham: and then In that main compartment, we've got a padded suspended, laptop sleeve. So you know, if you set the backpack down hard with your laptop in there, the laptops never going to hit the ground

Tayson: frame will protect that, as well as about four inches between the bottom of it and the ground. Yep.

Tayson: Let's talk for a second. We've also got the wedding tabs on the inside of this. Those wedding tabs pair with the accessory system. We talked about straps. So you could lash anything down. You want inside of here. I've done this from time to time. It's not something that like I'm used to or like love to use. Like the most I'm typically using the straps on the outside of the pack but I have seen people use them

Tayson: highly successfully now there's like they've used them to have seen. I think in our Kickstarter video. Actually they Have camera that they were using in their so that it wasn't flopping around inside the pack ever, or was just very secure like how like a safety system, which makes sense. But you could attach things inside of there.

Brigham: like like if you did have a camera,

Tayson: Carry case, for instance, you could use that, you know, run that through a strap and kind of have it secure in here. You could lash down clothes. I have taken one of our accessory bags that I was like this kind of like a long-term storage is when I had a top quilt and a tent and a pad, all in a bag, one of our compression dry bags, have that all compressed and I lashed that down in

Tayson: there. And so it's easier to pack around, but that's one additional feature that it's just nice. That it adds almost no weight, but it is a, it is a like option. It's not do something. Yeah, and I think last weekend and maybe not last, but we gotta talk about the compression system at some point because

Brigham: that is, that's probably the more significant things to cover on the inside. So, you know, think about we've talked about this big open main compartment. Well, what? Imagine the scenario of you travel to your destination, you check in at an Airbnb, or a hotel, or whatever a cabin. But then, you want to go.

Tayson: You've only brought the one bag.

Brigham: Okay? So again, we want this thing to Be versatile. But if there's not much in the backpack, you know, then your contents could be rattling around shifting around and it doesn't make, frankly, it doesn't make things. Very stable it, you know, the backpack kind of hangs away from your body and it's just not an ideal scenario if the backpack is like even half full. So we wanted to address that Keeping in mind that we don't want

Brigham: external compression straps, we don't want webbing on the outside that you have to crank down to kind of compress the backpack, to kind of basically make the the volume smaller

Tayson: and that's a massive pain point. If you've got a typical hiking backpack, straps straps everywhere, right?

Brigham: Yeah. So that was from the get-go. That was not an option. We don't want straps on the outside, but we wanted a way to kind of manage the excess volume of the pack when it's not being used. So, we came up with this, we just call an internal compression system that reduces basically the the side if you're looking

Tayson: at the side profile of the pack it

Brigham: reduces the thickness of the pack volume. So basically what it does is there's just on each side, there's three little little Clips or buckles that When the backpack is empty or full you clip them together and now it kind of just squeezes the

Tayson: backpack down a little bit so that it's not flopping around as much. And

Brigham: it contains whatever is in there. It contains it better. It prevents things from bouncing around or moving around which, you know, we want people to like, get out there and get after it on their their trips and Adventures and their vacations. So we just don't want that them to have any issues with with

Tayson: that. So, it's like Derek. Derek takes this pack to Guatemala and he's like I had it all packed up and I had so much room still in it because I wear an extra small size of clothing and everything you know, and I forget half my stuff that's getting there, but he had so much extra room in there. He's like, he's like I threw a snorkel and mask and stuff and it was for the heck, flippers full,

Tayson: you know, full set of flippers. But also what he could have easily done now is clipped some of these down and now the pack just lost almost half its volume, at least in that main compartment. And it fits him still like he doesn't need to pack extra stuff. He did kind of but like you don't need to pack extra stuff when I am taking it to even the gym in the morning, or if I'm like going

Tayson: to a weekend up at my parents, take my kids at my parents or something like that. I might not need the full volume and so I can clip some or all of these down and just compress that and it Shrinks the whole size of the pack and keeps it super stable. Yeah,

Tayson: I don't know of anyone who does this. I don't know of any internal compression systems out there. They're knowing this world, they're probably is somewhere but and I don't know who came up with the idea between me and Brigham either. But either I'm gonna bring him on the back. I think this is one of the most amazing features of the pack. I think that. I think this is. Gene works so well and it keeps the bag

Tayson: so clean. It's just a really ingenious way to keep the straps off the pack and give you the customization and load carry ability that you want because again I've certain packs. I've tested. Like if they're half full they look so bad and they flop around and as you're trying to set them down move with them. It's it's like it just Fall all over like some of them have say pockets and the upper half and on like

Tayson: this back quadrant person. I don't know how to explain that, but like the most unable place to have but the but because they're forced organization, they're making you pack there and there's no way to compress it down and it becomes whole mess. And so this is phenomenal. I typically am using it. So in travel, I'll have this pack loaded up and then when I get to the destination, when I did go to Mexico last, like I

Tayson: dropped everything out of it and I still took it when I went to go down to some Mayan ruins, right? and so I still take this pack, I loaded it up with stuff like water bottles and sunscreen and kind of had the I was carrying the stuff for the whole group, but I clip all those compressions and sit down and now it's just a backpack. Now it's not a big bigger size travel pack. It, it just it

Brigham: To help people visualize again, it just the side profile. Just becomes a lot thinner. It basically comes half half as thick, or Thinner. So it's just isn't sticking out or flopping around. So,

Tayson: yeah, and testing. You'll love it. I guess. It's like yeah, notice these little tabs on the inside and tell you need them. They're just they're just there, they're not in the way at all. But

Tayson: then when you go to use this thing, you just gonna be like, wow, that Works and in testing people have loved

Brigham: it. Yeah it is. I mean if it's different. So like all admit like you know if you just show this to somebody they don't Automatically know what to do there. And so,

Brigham: but once you show people it clicks and and then they're using it all the time because it really it just makes the pack. Ride smaller and so I typically will run you

Tayson: go? Yeah, I typically will, if I'm backpacking and my backpack isn't full. I'll typically to clip, the bottom ones to carry the load higher up and then on a daily basis. When I don't need the full volume, I find myself clipping the top closed because of it looks a little more aesthetically pleasing, I think, but overall, it's just, I use it in different ways. And I often am using only like one set of the clips because

Tayson: I still need most of the volume or portion of the volume. And All right, anything. Oh, long term storage. Let's talk about that. We call this the long term storage pocket. Really. It is the The frame. Yes, it's the access to here, this Frame. That's getting into the internal frame. And we actually this this came about through the Prototype process. How many prototypes do you think? We, I don't even know, but there's so many different prototypes

Tayson: and models that I had someone wanting to borrow one, a family member and I was like, sorting through my eye. I could not keep them straight on, I don't know this is which prototype this is, I don't know what it has and what it doesn't have, but here you go. But inside of this on one of the prototypes, you know, I one of us talked to the hit belt into the back panel and some of the

Tayson: velcro was like catching Fabric. And so we actually lined this as well to keep it a little bit more useful. But now a lot of times we'll use this long-term storage pocket for is that's where we'll put the hip belt. So like if you're not going to be using the hip belt or needing it, we'll stuff that down in there when I've gone into Mexico or these other areas I've put Cash sometimes like because it's just

Tayson: a more hidden not a place you're typically looking for but it's not a pocket that we would suggest like getting in and out of all the time. Yeah. It's and when it's loaded, it's going to be a little bit harder to close that pocket just because the Fabrics all getting taken up other places. But so

Tayson: really cool pocket. You can see the frame right in here, but mainly, it's just kind of a hidden and we call it a long term storage. Yeah,

Brigham: so essentially it's just a big sleeve behind the laptop sleeve and, you know, so it, you know, knowing that that is asleep. You don't, it's not meant to be in and out of a lot. And if you do put something in there, like the hip belt, something like that that's in, doesn't take up a lot of Bolt. That's the type of thing you'd want to put in there. Something that you're not going to be retreating a

Brigham: lot. So yeah, it's just it's kind of just worked out that way that it end up working. Well, so yeah,

Tayson: Hypothetically Brigham, if you're using this pack for adventuring. Would you or could you put a water bladder in the laptop sleeve? Yeah. Hypothetically I actually have thought about that. That was one of the things that I thought people might care about or want and definitely not built for that but you easily could run a water bladder inside of this pack and pipe it right out partially because of the zippers. So let's talk about the zippers. Now,

Tayson: this is a big course you compartment. Like we mentioned, which means that it zips in this big Horseshoe from the bottom of the back of the pack, all the way up and around to kind of where you're back, your head isn't back down. We, when we are going through these samples, they didn't quite get what we wanted at first, but we want it for zipper. Sliders on here for a very specific reason. The two that end

Tayson: up being kind of at the top. Allow you super quick access to laptop to loading and in the top of the pack and so on so forth and most most companies, I feel like if they stopped there but we added two additional supports on the bottom, Both of them are behind security wedding Loops, which we'll talk about shortly. But what that allows you to do is zip up from the bottom and get quick access to the

Tayson: bottom of your pack. Yeah, if you watch any of the videos, like our, our main video about the pack, you'll see people, you know, basically swing this around their shoulder still the packs, like Autumn. So, it's kind of like in Sling mode, almost unzip that portion and grab stuff out of their pack, a camera, or a jacket, or something like that, but it allows you to get access to any part of your pack, super

Brigham: conveniently. Yeah. Yeah, the goal is really. That is a long zipper track, right? So Stars at the bottom on one side, goes up to the top around the front and then Down the other side. So we want this to be very convenient for people. And so having just two sliders on, there isn't convenient enough. Like it's just, that's a lot of zipper and and what if you want to get something from the side or the bottom

Brigham: or you swing it down onto one shoulder and then bring it around the front of your body. We don't want you to have to go hunting for a zipper slider.

Tayson: And so, like Tayson said, you can access things on the

Brigham: bottom from the side and never have to move a zipper slider. Very far, Instead of like you know what if the zipper sliders all the way on the other side of the zipper track? Now you're you're serving it all the way around or zipping the pack completely open. So now you just have really minimally restricted access to everything in the pack in the main

Tayson: compartment because of the four zipper sliders and that's that's how I mean I've used those sliders mainly to just quickly access. Like I've got a jacket packed in there. Take one shoulder out of the the harness kind of swing it around my body. Unzip the side snag a jacket out of their zip. It back up. Put it back on my back in it. It's super seamless. It does just give you quick access to everything. And, and

Tayson: on the flip side of that is, we also have the ability for those. The first to kind of lock down. If you don't want them to open or give easier access to say, I don't know. Say I pick pocket in a busy transit system or something like that. They go underneath these webbing Loops these security keepers So people may not be super familiar with what the heck? Those are so, At a high level. You know they

Tayson: have like luggage that has locks on them. Right like that you can lock your luggage. Backpack. We did not make it so that that you could lock the luggage per se, but we did make it so that it can be very determinable or deter people from easily getting into the pocketing on it. Let's say sending you in a line. They can easily zip open a pocket and snag something at least in most of the pockets in

Tayson: the ones that we've chosen to secure. So on the bottom of these tracks, there are these webbing Loops that you can, you can pull the Man, what do you call that? This is a zipper pull. The zipper pull. You can pull that down through and it makes it so that you just can't open that zip or nearly as easy. What I do a lot of times, like if I'm backpacking is I can still zip that zipper

Tayson: closed by just kind of pushing my thumb through that Loop a little bit, so, all the way securing clothes, but I don't need to secure the tie, so it's

Tayson: a, it's a nice versatile piece and we've got those locks on. The bottom of the main compartment, the main back panel pocket. So we're you might put an iPad or other valuables there and then, we've also got it on the inside of the top pocket on one of those Pockets where I put Sports. So then it's in, it's in two pockets and one of them is Zipper gated as well. So, Pretty handy features and something that

Tayson: brings you a little bit of Peace of Mind as you're running through. Super busy places. Yeah.

Tayson: I think that covers the main compartment. Yep,

Tayson: main recap on. That is, there's no Force organization, but there is still organization. If you ton of customizability, we have accessories, we did talk about this. We have accessories that will that are designed to fit into that pocket, or that main compartment as the dimensions and stuff like that. But we'll cover those later. If you want some additional organization, it is available. They're super useful. But overall, you can use this pack, however you want, and you

Tayson: can compress it however you want and tailor it to whatever trip you are on. So, the next biggest pocket. Yeah, we already talked a little bit about this. This is the so this is the pocket that is I don't know how to describe this in audio form, but it's, it's the second biggest pocket that is on the farthest outside.

Brigham: Panel pocket. So, if you're wearing the pack, it's the park that it's the pocket. That's on the outside of the pack. Farthest away from your back.

Tayson: Right on the knot on the side or anything like that. Not on the top, the back side and this pocket here, obviously organizations Factor so, inside of this pocket, we have Three different mesh Pockets kind of same concept as the internal of the main, the main large compartment. So we we've got a padded. Yep.

Tayson: Maybe it's just heavy this point onwards, right. Now, that's kind of the drop pocket where you can put an iPad. So I put books in there sometimes I'm not really an iPad guy. It's really easy to get in and out of because it's it's

Brigham: open on the top. That pop is an open pocket so it's really just slide your hand down in there or just drop things in there. Yeah

Tayson: I'll throw jackets in there. Sometimes I'll also throw notebooks or books in there for me. IPads is the number one thing that other people are using it for And then on the inside of the pack, we've got two zippered compartments. So the top one is a zippered mesh pocket that is pleated and volume ice. So if you stuff stuff in here, you have a lot of room for that. To expand or to fall again, that Fleet

Tayson: really makes it fall straight back against the inside, if you didn't want to use the pocketing. And then inside of that zippered mesh pocket, we have two other nylon Pockets, where you can drop something, maybe around the size of the phone or maybe a battery Bank, battery bank, I keep pens and like laptop connectors and stuff like that in there sometimes But basically kind of a three pocket in one type system for this upper pocket and

Tayson: then we've got what we call the the Deep carry pocket. So down under here, it's underneath the fold. So if you zip this down and kind of fold that back panel down, it's deeper than that. You have to reach that in here. And there's another zippered pocket in here. There's no internal pocketing. It's just one big mesh, zippered pocket. This is called the Deep carry, it's where you can keep stuff. That's a little bit more secure.

Tayson: So here's mentioning early like a cash in the back panel, I also put some cash in that deep carry or just whatever it is. Maybe it's sensitive stuff or something that you're just don't want to ever fall out. Maybe it's meds. Who knows? But that deep carry pocket. It's not Hard to get access to but it's not like intuitive that it's there, even. Yeah,

Tayson: if you just pop, open the pack you might not even notice that it's in there.

Brigham: Yeah. The the zippered opening of the deep carry pocket sits lower than the bottom of the exterior zipper that opens up the main pocket. So like you can't even see that it's there because the zipper the exterior zipper for the big pocket, doesn't

Tayson: Doesn't allow it to open up that far. So, yeah, it's funny. The first time we got this back in a prototype with those in it. I was like, oh man, bring him. We need to raise that pocket up. It's just too hard to get to and then we use the Prototype and everyone was like, not I love that. I love that. It's that it's deeper in there. Because now, I've got this additional more

Brigham: secret or some peace of mind with your sense of items.

Tayson: Yep, yep. Exactly. So that became like a crowd favorite through all of the, the feedback. And I mean, even just a touch on that kind of deviate for a second. We have a ton of people use this pack. Yeah.

Tayson: And a lot of prototypes and a lot of time went into this, I had been prepping the team for this as well for years Brigham by loaning him out. All of my travel bags. Different team members have been using him and taking them all over the world for years to. And I told them all like because they all like I had an idea that to build a pack like this at some point. And so when it

Tayson: came time, they all had pretty decent feedback as far as the new the market. They knew that the products pretty well. Yeah, a lot of hands touch this and we've got a lot of really solid points of feedback from internal to family members to friends to influencers. We ship the bags to that have had them. Since I even April was, we've had influencers that have had different prototypes and bags, since April and Gathering feedback, so lots

Tayson: of hands of touched it. On this pocket. Is there anything that we missed? We've already talked about the background is padded. It does have a a wedding gate on here too so you can secure this pocket as well and it's volumized. So I'd be the last thing to tell you is if you're looking at this on a side profile there is like a 3D component to it. Where there's about two it's actually well we dialed this

Tayson: in. That's like that's part of what you guys dive into you. I'm gonna I'm gonna try to show this on camera. Well Brigham talks about this but Essentially, we played around a ton with the volume of this pocket. Bottom of it is small. The top of it is small and in the middle is where it's at its widest. And that created, I mean why were we playing around with that? What was the recipe that we're trying to dial in?

Brigham: Yeah, I mean first we don't like adding a pocket that is going to just take away volume from somewhere else meaning. Just a flat pocket because if you put something in there it's going to take the volume out of the the main compartment or some

Tayson: other compartment. So we wanted to add, you know, built-in volume. But what we

Brigham: had to iterate and tweak a few times was like how much we wanted that pocket to extend outward and so we we did we had to dial and adjust, you know, where it extends out the most just so it doesn't extend out too far. So yeah, if you're looking at the side profile, this pocket has 3D Volume, meaning it extends away from the bag but it extends less at the bottom of the pocket and less at

Brigham: the top of the pocket. And most of the volume is kind of right in the middle. So it's kind of like this convex volume

Tayson: built into that pocket. I think a lot of that curve that we did in this pocketing in the volumizing of this pocketing was important to me the we first tailored and I feel like the bottom So that stuff didn't just fall straight to the bottom and it's hard to get out. It kind of helps hold stuff a little higher in the pocket, which is, which is good for load carry but it's also just nice to have

Tayson: everything just dropped straight to the bottom and go into like a dark hole down there.

Brigham: Yeah. And become a giant ball of stuff.

Tayson: Yep. And then on the top half we actually did the change the volume on this side. Because it looks a lot cleaner too. Like when you're when you're having Pockets that just jut off the pack, that's not always, the statically is pleasing. So that, the curve in this was, was definitely two-fold. It was function. And it was a little bit of the Aesthetics and it brought in just a really usable portion. Because, like Brigham said, the

Tayson: fact that it is volumized makes it so that when you use that pocket, it's not just pushing and taking away space from the internal main compartment, so that's that pocket. Super useful pocket for sure. Let's talk about the top pocket now. So, on the, I'm kind of where you would count the hood of this, this Got another horseshoes zipper tracked that opens up very wide. And gives you a lot of space in here. I don't, I

Tayson: don't know how to describe how much space is in there, but I can put like a Ventus hoodie even in this area if I want to. I put a rain jacket in there, but a lot of times, you know, what I'm doing is I'm putting click access stuff, sunglasses wallet key stuff like that in here and you've got essentially three pockets in one you open this up and you've got a main pocket that's just sitting in

Tayson: here. Then on the exterior face of that, you've got another mesh pocket. So another piece that is just there. If you want it to organize stuff, Do not have to use. It does not take away from the pocket itself but it can stretch and give you just, that ability to have some additional organization and its a zippered pocket. So it knows it's

Brigham: a secure pocket. Like nothing's gonna fall out.

Tayson: So picture, throwing your Chopstick in there and your sunglasses and some stuff like that. That's now secure. It's not going to fall out when you zip this pocket open, because it does open very wide, but it doesn't need to be locked per se and then

Tayson: on the back side, you've got a nylon pocket. This one does have the Charity, webbing loops. And then on the inside of that, you've got a key hook so you can clip in your keys. Locked in and secure. It's got some different attachment points here for webbing. I've used these, you know, obviously the first logical thing would be like pain or you can put a pen in there, but I've used them for battery Banks. You know,

Tayson: sticking battery banks in there. I've used them for flashlights. I've used them for A missing something that I found pretty useful in those but just gives you some additional organization within that. The biggest thing I'll use this pocket for because it does have that lock on the inside, is my passport goes there. Yeah,

Tayson: that's where I'm typically putting my passport. it's

Tayson: still a very accessible but it's not just like Easily to open if you put it through these these Gates here but yeah, this is just a really useful pocket for quick access. Items and three pockets in one that you can use it. A whole variety of different ways. Yeah, I

Tayson: put, oh, last thing is, I pair headphones? I'm wearing right now. I've put them in this pocket and stuff on travel as well. If you've got a big pair of headphones, it's a great place to put something like that.

Brigham: Yeah, yeah. It's I think that's a good kind of reference of size that people can expect. Yep. Yeah, exactly.

Tayson: All right, let's drop down to the two volume eyes side. We call them water bottle Pockets but really it's Whatever you want it to be pocket. Yeah. What do you want to cover with these?

Brigham: Well, these took some some dialing, into some different kind of going through a few different variations. Because again, we wanted to have volume built into the pocket. but just like the back pocket, we didn't want it to extend too far out and just become make the pack really Wise, you're wearing it. And then we really wanted to be able to fully zip the pocket, shut with a one liter. Now Gene bottle that was kind of like

Brigham: the the size goal. So Without taking up volume from the inside of the pack. So, we dialed in how much volume to extend outward and I think we found a pretty good mix. There was a lot of good feedback of people saying that. Like, yeah, totally works, but it just seems to stick out too far or that was kind of the main feedback with the volume.

Tayson: I might pocket, but we also played with the zipper

Brigham: Direction which way to have The Zipper, you know, clothes and open. And then how high

Tayson: the bottom point of the zipper should go. That was another thing we kind of learned through testing different prototypes was

Tayson: If you want to leave that pocket open, let's say a water bottle in it. That zipper

Brigham: the bottom end of the zipper, can't be too low or the bottle. Will not be secure, it'll flop or fall out too easily. So we messed around with that had go wrong on a variety of other packs iPhone. Yeah.

Tayson: Water bottles constantly dropping out of the pack on.

Brigham: Yeah. So yeah, we tweaked that and found a pretty good balance and then just add kind of another measure of security. We,

Tayson: we put at the bottom of the zipper opening

Brigham: on that water bottle pocket. We put like a stretch mesh, gusset that kind of extends about two inches higher than the bottom of the zipper where the zipper end is. So that really contains a water bottle and keeps it secure. If the zipper is not zipped shut. So again, to give people an idea of size like a one liter now, Gene bottle will Sit in there and the zipper will totally.

Tayson: Zip. Shut Brigham has a gatorade bottle right here. That easily fits all the way inside of that. Pocket can easily zip shut around there. But now Gene, obviously is even bigger than that, but if you don't You might at least know what, like a Powerade or Gatorade ball. Yeah. For sure thicker ones are.

Brigham: And then, you know, some of the other testing was like a well, you know, a lot of people have hydro flasks Those are really tall. Those are much taller, excuse me, then like an algae. So anticipating that people might want something like that, that went into playing with the zipper, the zipper bottom, how high that extends and then adding that gusset because we want people to be able to put those bottles in there, knowing that the

Brigham: zipper wouldn't be able to zip shut, but we still needed that bottle to be secure. So

Tayson: we got to play around with the zipper head being on the bottom. And that's in part two, because if you had a tripod or whatever else, trekking poles, whatever the sitting down in the pocket, you can then zip the zipper up a little bit and that also holds it tighter to You and

Tayson: then to go along with that and I mean, and they're tall Pockets. So, like as long as you're not like a massive tripod, you might not even need this. But those, those strapping systems that I've already talked about with the wire gate. Carabiners, I'm holding a small right now. Of this small was really designed for something like this where directly above that pocket. There are two webbing Clips or Loops that you can slide these wire gate

Tayson: hardware pieces into and then lash the tripod against the side of the pack to fully secure, something like that. So that's something, you know, that I've frequently carried. Tripods and this completely attaches, a tripod to the side of the pack. It's quick and easy access and it's super stable. It's just, it's a really good system that plays forward because it's not just, this isn't just a water bottle pocket. It's also a side drop pocket, essentially, if you're looking at it that way or

Tayson: has the ability to to pack items that hang outside of that pocket ever sure. Yeah.

Tayson: So it's a really it's a really good pocket and it's really useful. I've never seen anyone that didn't end up using the crap out of that pocket. Yeah for sure.

Brigham: I kind of, since you mentioned the straps, you know, to help people visualize some mention, the little attachment Loops. Those

Tayson: are placed throughout the exterior of the pack. So on each side.

Brigham: Um, there's four Loops, so like two front, two back. And then

Tayson: there's also automatic. There's four

Brigham: sorry. There's four loops on the bottom

Tayson: and attach into the same ones as the gates up here. These are a little bit oversized, so you could get two on there if the last thing to the top.

Brigham: How many is that that's four, so four on each side and then four of the bottom and the two top. Well,

Tayson: that's just, that's 12 available on the outside and

Tayson: on the inside, there's six. Or 12 more. Yes. Well so 12 more. Yeah. The technically there's 24 of these tiny little Loops that you can tack into and create a fully customized modular system again, if you're watching this on video, the one strap is, is not very big. This is the short strap that I'm holding. Right now. We have a much longer strap that that you could use to strap almost anything to this package. Yeah,

Brigham: it's meant to go like all the way across the pack from one side to the other. Whereas the short ones are

Tayson: generally going to be used like just on the side. Yeah.

Tayson: And these come with your packed. These are not an accessory or an add-on. They might be if you want more straps for some weird reason, you might be able to buy those. But these are just gonna come in your pack as a as a part of the pack and as part of its features. So that's huge. That's that's the pocketing. We've covered almost all the aspects. One of the things we skipped over was maybe the grab

Tayson: handles. So we have four grab handles around this pack, we've got one on the bottom. We've got two on the sides. The top. Where like you're typically used to a backpack, having a loop to set it on a, like, hanging on a coat rack, or something like that. And Makes it super easy to put in an overhead bin to carry, a suitcase, style, loaded in and out of cars. It just makes it super easy to grab

Tayson: and move on the go at all times. Yeah.

Brigham: We just we want people to not have to hunt for a place to grab the pack or worried about, you know, being in a hurry because there's a line behind them and the aisle of the airplane and throwing your pack up there. But wanting to be able to get it at the end of the flight and we're in, what do I need to orient? My

Tayson: pack up there, just throw it up there. Every side has a handle that you can grab and you don't have to think about it.

Tayson: Yeah, the other thing is occasionally, on some of our trips. We've been on all week up, and I'll just cheer all this rustling. I'll go on the other room and I'll see Brigham. He's loaded up the code and he's like doing some overhead lifts with it and, you know, work out and using the grab handle. So you know, um but no they're very useful and make it quick and easy for sure in all forms of transit

Tayson: to move the pack around and I had I had another thought. Part of what I think just makes this pack. So cool, is that? In fact, one of the ways that I use this, this totally random, this is tangent. This is, this is a podcast exclusive. I talked about here, I was in when I was, when I took this up to Wyoming or recently, we were in our, we had an Airbnb, little cabin thing and You

Tayson: know, you could pull all your stuff out, you can put it in like the drawers of the cabinets and stuff, the sun, she don't want to do that. Sometimes there's a good space to just set it on top of something, sometimes there's not. And in this scenario basically had this closet. I like to take everything out, hang it up or something like that, but what I ended up doing was actually just I first I took this

Tayson: accessory strap and I looked it through and I hung my backpack in the closet which worked and was really good. And I had all this access everything just kind of like rotating and I was like, I love that. So then I just took it on my I've got these really nice load lifters. I just popped the load lifter, wire, Gates off, Loop them up and over the the Coat hanger Rod. Oh yeah.

Tayson: And then the pack was Secure in two points and was just hanging in the closet and then I had access to everything in the pack and I just used it. Like I pulled all my clothes and used it as it was hanging and it was kind of a cool little feature but I think that's just what's cool. Like that's just one example of like you can just make this pact, do what you want it to do,

Tayson: because we didn't force, we tried our best, not to force anything in this pack and just make it, you know, I hate I hate the word. Use the word chameleon. It's not a chameleon. And you usually you think of like Jack of all trades, master of none. But this really is a masterful pack. and, but it still gives you that option to just Customize it and use it how you want. Dude, I don't know what we

Tayson: didn't cover here. Brigham. I guess the assesories would be the last thing and I don't know how deep we want to go into those but we did feel like the pack needed accessories for whatever reason. I have two here in front of me and it's not The might be the most important to cover one. A dot bag is zippered dry. Got bag and ultralight back. This is a 30 Dill nylon with waterproof or water resistance

Tayson: zippers on. I don't know if they ever clean their water proof and we've seen taped the inside purpose of that, something spills inside of there, it's not getting out and onto other clothes in your items to say, let's say, you're you're cologne spills in here or Got some shampoo that you need for your silky hair, Brigham. You've got that inside there and it's sealed in. Its super nice piece. That literally lives in my backpack every day

Tayson: of the year because what I what I like to use my code for is I keep as long as I've got that dot bag in there and I've got to the Glee, my laptop and stuff in there. All I've got to do to be prepared for a weekend away, is load in a change of clothes and I'm gone, that's all it takes. So I kind of just like to leave a dot bag in there with, you

Tayson: know, an extra toothbrush and all the toiletries plus I am using this. I use it different than most people, so it's not the intended purpose, but I take it to the gym whenever I'm going to the gym, and then I'll shower at the gym, come straight to work. And so my package is just always ready for something like that. So there's the zipper Drive bag. There is a call, the OB packing Cube I believe. But it's

Tayson: just a square called Square like a rectangular Cube. Yeah, that zippered, kind of looks like what maybe like shoe bag would look like, or you could load clothes into here dirty clothes. We did add the webbing attachment points for those to reflects connectors. So you can also like attached, say the two long straps accessory straps you could use Sling, where you can put two on, you can actually use it as a little backpack in a pinch

Tayson: if you needed to, but I'd use this also, like went on airplanes, I'll load this up and take this to my seat, as a personal items back with that book, and maybe some charging cables and some things like that. But It's just a versatile way to pack and you can use that. And you could technically probably lash this down in the pack if you wanted to as well, using these webbing pieces, and the internal webbing pieces

Tayson: in the pack as well. So, That's a little call. Accessory number two is the OB

Tayson: packing Cube. And then the last one, which I don't have to Showcase. If you are on video here is the compression dry bag. Now, it's really important that we stay compression Drive bag because I'll be honest, I didn't use dry bags, very much, Brigham in the past and Using, what is kind of popular? I guess I should say in travel is like a vacuum sealed type bag. It's a really handy piece for sure. Some of

Tayson: them will like valves on them and this, that and the other and really so much that is unnecessary because if you just understand how to use a dry bag, you can compress those. And use them as like a vacuum sealed type bag, so maybe explain what that would, how you would do that. And Maybe how you've used it before.

Brigham: Yeah, so I mean it's it's a roll top dry bag that's seam taped so it seemed sealed and it uses a waterproof fabric. So it's it's a waterproof bag that is a roll top. So you put your items in there and then you start, you close it and then you start rolling it down. And then, you roll it over, fold it over like four or five times and then you Buckle it to itself you buckle up

Brigham: close, But before that that's how it closes, that's how it functions but to compress it and kind of get that backing seal effect. So you put your contents in there and then you just really only have to fold the top over one time and then you just use your knee or you kneel down and you use your body weight and just slowly just apply it or let your weight sit down on the outside of the bag.

Brigham: So you're compressing the contents and it's pushing the air out. And then you'll see like once every all the air is out, it looks like it's vacuum sealed and then you just And you just fold it over three or four more times and then Buckle it up. And now, it looks like this vacuum sealed. Tag, all your stuff is compressed and it stays that way. So that's just a really easy way of using a roll top

Brigham: dry bag. For compression. And keeping everything dry. Yeah, it works really well and the path. The the bag that we that we offer, it's designed specifically to fit the bottom shape of the backpack. So, it matches the bottom shape of the backpack. So it has a really good

Tayson: clean fit. You have any kind of like an estimated volume size of that piece? 20 liter 20, 20, 25 liters.

Tayson: Yeah, honestly, like like the dot bag. People love the dot bag. Super useful, the packing Cube useful people Raves. I would say like like for instance I've had like one set of accessories at my house but I have used and then we go on a trip and my wife has a pack but she doesn't have a set of accessories and all you use the, the compression. You know, dry bag. And she's always like, where's mine? I

Tayson: want one of those. That's the thing I want because because I'll take all my clothes or whatever and I'll compress them into half the size of my pack. Just looks that much lighter. It was puddle jumpers. I talked about earlier cycling all the way back to those. I had those loaded in there. I can compress those down at times. They don't take up, such a massive amount of space in my bag. When we went to Seattle,

Tayson: I put my top quilt, my tent my table, And some like the clothes that I didn't that I was like sleeping in so I didn't need access to but those all in that dry bag, compress that down and tight and then it's like out of the way. Two second work around it during the day or just leave it in the car, really easily. If I want to pull it out, I can just drop that in the

Tayson: car. But that has kind of been like a go-to people love those, and they're super light. It's a really light material. So all of the accessories are super light but we are gonna offer these in a bundle on the kickstarter. Now, if you back early on you'll just get the accessories for free which is huge. So when this podcast goes live, if you act very quickly, you're going to get accessories. All three of those accessories for

Tayson: free with your order. If you wait, you'll be able to purchase them at a decent discount but they're gonna retell, I want to say for around 670 for the bundle. So you get them for free is a big deal and Get them or even to get them just at any point on the kickstarter just to build something on them over 50%. So you'll want to act on the kickstarter if you can but they're all, they're all

Tayson: useful. I don't use them every time I don't use every one of them every time but they're just another tool in the Arsenal of making this backpack work for you, the way you want to make it work. Okay, so that's the accessories. And that's, that's the KotaUL. I mean, that there's obviously, there's more that goes into it, but most of that is like the back and forth mean Brigham, talk about and Brigham goes through as

Tayson: we go through all these different samples and dialing in different things. But I think we've we've, we've nailed it and gone pretty deep on a lot of stuff. Not only Mine. But in the reason why, which I think is what people love because on the understand, the reason why the bag makes that much more sense and and becomes a staple, and in their travels, in the future for sure. Yeah, what any kind of final thoughts on

Tayson: on the code or just for the audience in general? Well, I mean I'm excited for people to get it

Brigham: and get using it. you know, when we started getting prototypes made, I really want to just like send it off to the world. I mean that's kind of what we were able to do with. It was very timely, a lot of people within the company, we're taking some International trips or some some substantial travels, you know? And so It's been it's been a good process like there's been, I feel like all the feedback has been productive

Brigham: that led to a better version each time. and yeah, I I think I think we've kind of accomplished what we set out to, I think it's really comfortable it. achieves, a really good balance of Travel and Adventure and backpacking and all those things. Yeah.

Tayson: Some of these products you've been turning out lately. Know how good of a product they are based off of the feedback that you get to see people's faces when they see the products. Say the Ventus, for instance, like man, you hand that to someone and they're like, whoa. What is this? Like it? Like a shocks them? How puffy it is, but how light it is and the materials. The Cota has also, for sure. Been one like

Tayson: that. Where I've got family members, who don't backpack, or don't, you know, do a lot of things that I do, even that are like, when is that going to be available? Like, I need that pack and like they see me wear it, or I've lent it lent it to him for feedback or something and and then they're just adamant of like, when is that thing gonna be here? And I think, I think our followers and those

Tayson: that purchased this pack, they're going to get that. I mean, it really is a piece, that is a critical piece. It's like an everyday piece, not everyone's gonna use it as an everyday piece, but like, it'll feel like that because you can use it in such a massive variety of applications. And I think what's cool about this pack is to me. It feels like a ticket, it feels like it feels like permission. To go and do.

Tayson: Really cool bucket list trips. You know, maybe yours is to go to Olympic like we did maybe yours is to go hike Mount, Kota Kinabalu. Maybe yours is to, you know, go down to the Andes or hike Machu Picchu, or maybe it's to go back Europe. Yes. Go hostile. The hostel in Europe or backpack, Europe, and any way, shape, or form. This piece to me, feels like a ticket and I think people will use it that

Tayson: way because it's like get the pack. You. Figure out what you need for the trips, you pack inside of that, which we'll have to produce a lot more content on that because a lot of really good things you can bring from that ultralight mindset, you know, into travel that we've all done. Internally in the office, we just haven't talked about it as much but it really is it's like this ticket to the world and that's all

Tayson: you need. All you need can fit in that backpack and you could go anywhere and do anything you want to throughout the whole world. So it's a fun piece, it's a fun piece to have, its fun piece to finally get to release the details on and show people. I think that they are going to love the pack and I think we're gonna see some really cool feedback from our customers inside. Say our closed Facebook group for

Tayson: our membership, we're going to see that pack go all over the world. We have a really cool feedback loop in there where people just always posting like where they're taking some of our stuff. So it's just a really fun area. I'm excited to see where this pack goes because I think it is going to be that ticket that takes people all over the world and gives them that permission to skip the rolling luggage. To. Confidently within

Tayson: one, carry on bag and just go and do more. So Okay, I think let's let's, let's call it a wrap. For those of you that found value in this podcast, make sure you share it. Make sure if you have not left a review for us, please leave a review on the mobile Choice podcast and we'll have some more things coming up. We're going to revamp this podcast a little bit over the next couple months and add

Tayson: a few more things, hopefully improve the quality of the recordings, as well as continued to do things like record. Some of the maybe watching this on the video recording but we'll start taking and doing some of that, as well with the podcast, but we really enjoy these. These are some of the episodes you guys love the most, but would love to have some feedback on this. If you have feedback for the podcast, send it over to

Tayson: support at Outdoor Vitals.com or go on our website Outdoor Vitals. And just hit the chat, a little icon and type in your feedback. We'd love to hear that feedback but with that, thanks for joining us. Go check out the kickstarter for the code while it's there. And if you're missing this listening to, you know, in late November or something like that, just go to our website and we'll have more details there as well. So okay, we'll

Tayson: catch on the next one.